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Temporal Illusion and "The Joker" James Holmes

Started by Oversoul, July 23, 2012, 06:50:00 AM

Oversoul

The media has released prior videos of James Holmes documenting the scientific interest (and personal fascination?) he has had with the concept of "temporal illusions." 

Could Holmes, a student of neuroscience, have experimented on himself as suggested by a blogger, with altered states of mind (drug-induced or otherwise) as to have created a mindset in which Holmes began to subjectively believe he was the Joker incarnate?  Might his pursuit of "time illusion" experimentation have unwittingly opened up and accessed a dimension in his mind where his fantasy became a self-perceived reality, which he eventually lived out in this world with tragic consequences? 

QuoteThe search of Holmes' apartment yielded a computer and a variety of Batman paraphernalia, including a poster and a mask, more evidence of his apparent obsession with the comic book hero....

... In the video, he is standing among his peers at a science camp held at Miramar College in San Diego talking about "temporal illusions."

"Over the course of the summer I've been working with a temporal illusion. It's an illusion that allows you to change the past," Holmes said in the video.

He appears slightly nervous speaking to the group but also extremely intelligent.

This is how he was explaining his mentor's shared interest in fantasy versus reality in the video: "He also studies subjective experience, which is what takes places inside the mind as opposed to the external world. I've carried on his work in dealing with subjective experience."

By most accounts, Holmes lived the life of a normal teen -- with a particular interest in science....

... Though Holmes was apparently a gifted scientist who had received a federal grant to work on his Ph.D. at one of the most competitive neuroscience programs in the country...   [ABC News]

Evidently Holmes was considered an intelligent person, and he may have truly been one.  But could he have been the victim of some kind of a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde syndrome resulting from his self-experimentation?  Did he actually transform himself into the split persona of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde?  Might he have been too bright for his own good?

I do know and understand that we, the human species, are presently living in a time-epoch where a radical paradigm shift in consciousness is occurring.  It is causing the rapid expansion of mind and awareness, and the multidimensionality of the human experience.  These are reflected in the numerous discoveries of science in the past few decades alone, in fields such as astronomy, cosmology, astrophysics, quantum mechanics, theoretical physics, neuroscience, genetics, computer science, nano technology, robotics, etc., all of which are opening more possibilities and with those possibilities, also more risks.  Did James Holmes underestimate the power of his own mind to implode on him?   Did he open a doorway for some kind of "demonic possession"?

Okay, CoastGabbers, how about unraveling this thread?  (This should be a legitimate and engaging topic for a C2C episode.)
 

McPhallus

Interesting thoughts, but to me he just seems to be a fucking loony toons asshole.

Oversoul

Quote from: McPhallus on July 23, 2012, 06:57:04 AM
Interesting thoughts, but to me he just seems to be a fucking loony toons asshole.

People might have said similarly of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart during his time, were it not for his musical genius.  The tragic price of genius that backfired in the case of Holmes?  :-\

McPhallus

Quote from: Oversoul on July 23, 2012, 07:02:34 AM
People might have said similarly of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart during his time, were it not for his musical genius.  The tragic price of genius that backfired in the case of Holmes?  :-\

I don't recall Mozart doing anything like shooting up a theater, even if that were possible in his time.

Why does Holmes have to be a genius?  He has above-average intelligence, but so do his classmates.

Zircon

Oversoul, the reference to Mozart is an excellent follow up. He seemed to carry on an anti-social behavior towards those he regarded as inferior. He was obnoxious and could be accurately called an "ass hole" for his behavior. However, Holmes, while becoming more private and guarded, did not express himself in the same obnoxious, extroverted manner that Mozart did.

Might it be that he managed to force a crossing of the lines of the split personality phenomenon? Not sure what the clinical name is for it but the (many faces of) "Eve" condition studied by psychologists in the past? "Temporal Illusions" suggests he just jumped over into living within his own fantasy. If he used drugs or "suggestion" then it would seem he had an assistant to administer his procedures. "Time Illusion"? That seems out of place. You'd need to expand on what you mean by that and how it could apply to a self-induced fantasy evolving into a mental state of perceived reality.

Taking the length of time he took to prepare for this event (months) and the thought that went into his materials manifest clearly point to his already deciding to take this terrible course of action after his lapse into an "alternate universe" or another highly malevolent personality. This was planned and scheduled for opening day once the transition was made.

Dropping out of his PhD program that we assume he was successfully completing, spending all of this money on military level equipment suggest he switched personalities or decided with perfect sanity to carry out this plot. I believe he switched as he was made up for the part, is convinced he is playing the part of an evil super villain, shows no remorse and acts as if everything is normal.

Oversoul

Quote from: McPhallus on July 23, 2012, 07:17:33 AM
I don't recall Mozart doing anything like shooting up a theater, even if that were possible in his time.

Why does Holmes have to be a genius?  He has above-average intelligence, but so do his classmates.

Right, Mozart never did anything like shooting people inside a theater.  But he acted somewhat as if he were mentally retarded, what we politely call "mentally challenged" today.  This was portrayed in the movie Amadeus.  Did you see that movie?


Holmes is reported to be "a gifted scientist who had received a federal grant to work on his Ph.D. at one of the most competitive neuroscience programs in the country," according to news reports.  The police has described his evil deed and him as diabolical.  If he had done a counterpart good in the area of neuroscience which benefited many people instead of the evil he committed, might his good deed have been hailed as genius?  After all, from the criminal mind's perspective such as the Batman nemesis, The Joker, Holmes' plan and execution of his crime was a stroke of genius albeit evil and full of infamy.
   

BobGrau

It doesn't take much genius to fire an automatic weapon into a crowd. Fish in a barrel.

Please don't start deifying this fuckwit, he gives us 'quiet loners' a bad name.

Oversoul

Quote from: Zircon on July 23, 2012, 07:39:05 AM
Oversoul, the reference to Mozart is an excellent follow up. He seemed to carry on an anti-social behavior towards those he regarded as inferior. He was obnoxious and could be accurately called an "ass hole" for his behavior. However, Holmes, while becoming more private and guarded, did not express himself in the same obnoxious, extroverted manner that Mozart did.

Might it be that he managed to force a crossing of the lines of the split personality phenomenon? Not sure what the clinical name is for it but the (many faces of) "Eve" condition studied by psychologists in the past? "Temporal Illusions" suggests he just jumped over into living within his own fantasy. If he used drugs or "suggestion" then it would seem he had an assistant to administer his procedures. "Time Illusion"? That seems out of place. You'd need to expand on what you mean by that and how it could apply to a self-induced fantasy evolving into a mental state of perceived reality.

Taking the length of time he took to prepare for this event (months) and the thought that went into his materials manifest clearly point to his already deciding to take this terrible course of action well before a momentary lapse into an "alternate universe" or another highly malevolent personality. This was planned and scheduled for opening day.

Dropping out of his PhD program that we assume he was successfully completing, spending all of this money on military level equipment suggest he switched personalities or decided with perfect sanity to carry out this plot. I believe he switched as he was made up for the part, is convinced he is playing the part of an evil super villain, shows no remorse and acts as if everything is normal.

You are referring to "Dissociative Identity Disorder," commonly known as split personality.  I quite agree with you that Holmes managed to cross the lines of his split personality disorder from which he could not return nor recover.  As in the story of Dr. Jeykll and Mr. Hyde, Jeykll eventually lost to Hyde.

QuoteEventually, the potion began to run out, and Jekyll was unable to find a necessary ingredient to make more. Ironically, Jekyll learns that this most necessary ingredient was in the first instance of his experiments, sullied. He assumes that subsequent supplies are pure and thus lacking the quality that makes the potion successful for his experiments. His ability to change back from Hyde into Jekyll slowly vanished. Jekyll writes that even as he composes his letter he knows that he will soon become Hyde permanently, and he wonders if Hyde will face execution for his crimes or choose to kill himself. Jekyll notes that, in either case, the end of his letter marks the end of the life of Dr Jekyll. He ends the letter saying "I bring the life of that unhappy Henry Jekyll to an end". With these words, both the document and the novel come to a close.

I meant "temporal illusion" which has to do with our time perceptions of the past and the future in relation to the present.  It is related to the phenomenon and theory of why we perceive and experience time to move only in one direction -- forward from past to the future.  This was taken up in an episode of the NOVA series "The Fabric of the Cosmos" with Brian Greene.  "Temporal illusion" is not easy to explain but you can do some quick online research at Wikipedia

I do understand that the concept of temporal illusions is intimately connected with the theory of altered states of mind.  If I recall correctly, this theory's application formed the basis of the time travel element in the story for the 1980 movie "Somewhere in Time" which starred the late Christopher Reeve and Jane Seymour.  I suspect it may have also played a role in the theory behind the story of another 1980 film "Altered States" starring William Hurt.  (Both movies are fascinating explorations of time travel theories via altered states of consciousness.  Watch them in case you haven't.)

Your last paragraph is a valid conclusion when one considers how Holmes coolly identified with the comics/movie villain when he claimed "I am the Joker!" on being apprehended.  He fully identified his sense of self with The Joker's persona.  Personally I think it took more than a few months for Holmes to fully make the mental transformation at age 24; he may have had personality distortions or may have compromised his mental health at least since age 18 when he was toying with temporal illusions.
 

Oversoul

Quote from: BobGrau on July 23, 2012, 08:36:01 AM
It doesn't take much genius to fire an automatic weapon into a crowd. Fish in a barrel.

Please don't start deifying this fuckwit, he gives us 'quiet loners' a bad name.

No one is being "deified" here.  We are only studying the processes of the mind and the nature of consciousness, and trying to analyze how the mental processes and moral awareness of James Holmes were compromised by his early interest in an esoteric subject of metaphysics, psychology, and theoretical physics called "temporal illusions" in the context of time perception.  You do not have to join the discussion if you are not scientifically curious over the matter.

Besides, the discussion is not any worse than deifying the idiocy, stupidity, and incompetence of George Noory as the C2C host, which is like beating a dead horse over and over and over again, ad infinitum.

Yes, it doesn't take much genius to fire an automatic weapon into a crowd.  But the way it was done is undeniably diabolical and seemingly incomprehensible against the background of who did it.  Not fish in a barrel, but octupus in a barrel, assuming you are familiar with the dexterity of an octopus with its body to maneuver through tight squeezes.

There are people who enjoy applying the thinking processes of their intellect minds to the phenomena in the world.  Let's not add to the dumbing down of America by the simple lack of scientific curiosity.  ;)


McPhallus

Quote from: Oversoul on July 23, 2012, 07:41:12 AM
Right, Mozart never did anything like shooting people inside a theater.  But he acted somewhat as if he were mentally retarded, what we politely call "mentally challenged" today.  This was portrayed in the movie Amadeus.  Did you see that movie?


yes, I sat through it when it hit the theaters.  I remember it being rather long and boring at the time.

Holmes, according to what I've read, was in a state of mental decline in the last few years and wasn't doing well academically.  That might suggest a mental illness such as schizophrenia, which the Unabomber had.

But I still don't see why we need to regard him as some sort of tortured genius.

BobGrau

Quote from: Oversoul on July 23, 2012, 08:56:38 AM
No one is being "deified" here.  We are only studying the processes of the mind and the nature of consciousness, and trying to analyze how the mental processes and moral awareness of James Holmes were compromised by his early interest in an esoteric subject of both metaphysics, psychology, and theoretical physics called "temporal illusions" in the context of time perception.  You do not have to join the discussion if you are not scientifically curious over the matter.

Besides, the discussion is not any worse than deifying the idiocy, stupidity, and incompetence of George Noory as the C2C host, which is like beating a dead horse over and over and over again, ad infinitum.

Yes, it doesn't take much genius to fire an automatic weapon into a crowd.  But the way it was done is undeniably diabolical and seemingly incomprehensible against the background of who did it.  Not fish in a barrel, but octupus in a barrel, assuming you are familiar with the dexterity of an octopus with its body to maneuver through tight squeezes.

There are people who enjoy applying the thinking processes of their intellect minds to the phenomena in the world.  Let's not add to the dumbing down of America by the simple lack of scientific curiosity.  ;)

Durrr... Bob no understand. Bob will shut up now.


Oversoul

Quote from: McPhallus on July 23, 2012, 09:02:20 AM
yes, I sat through it when it hit the theaters.  I remember it being rather long and boring at the time.

Holmes, according to what I've read, was in a state of mental decline in the last few years and wasn't doing well academically.  That might suggest a mental illness such as schizophrenia, which the Unabomber had.

But I still don't see why we need to regard him as some sort of tortured genius.

I don't think we are saying James Holmes was a "tortured genius" in this thread.  On the contrary, we are admitting the FAILED expression of the genius that he could have been as a neuroscientist. 

And we are trying to see and understand how or why his genius (Dr. Jeykll) failed him ultimately as the dark side of his personality (Mr. Hyde) took over overwhelmingly.  It may help us understand the human condition better.

You are right: Holmes' condition does suggest a mental illness such as schizophrenia.  However, we are further exploring if his self-admitted experimentation with "temporal illusions" as a science enthusiast then and as a neuroscientist later (now) might have contributed to that or even actually caused it.  That is why the present thread is titled "Temporal Illusion and 'The Joker' James Holmes."

BTW, IMHO from a science point of view, temporal illusion seems to be a more plausible scientific topic than Richard Hoaxland's torsion physics theories.


Oversoul

Holmes looks like he is about to turn catatonic or totally withdrawn.  One can only wonder what thoughts are running through his mind.


Sitting in court Holmes wore a prison-issue jumpsuit, sported dyed red hair and appeared sleepy and dazed.   (BBC)

Juan

I'd like to know if he was on any of the drugs that the school shooters of the 90s were on.  Doctors said the Columbine killers' brains were awash with serotonin and had been on anti-depressants.  Otherwise, it looks like he had been in decline for some time.

I do wonder what his mother meant when she said "You've got the right guy."

Frys Girl

Thoughts through his mind? How about prison rape? prison killing? Shock at the reality that HE made for himself.....the images of shooting at pregnant women and young children?


He is a narcissist and he is after sympathy. A man who puts red hair dye only wants attention and this guy is getting it. That nutjob Alex Jones is peddling the theory of another inside job. What a waste. Why didn't Alex Jones get a real job and apply that energy to finding a cure or solution for a real problem. All these conspiracies are part of the problem of America's decline, not it's strengthening.


As to withdrawing, I think he probably failed his comps and was given options that he didn't like. He seems like a loser to me, and instead of taking steps to fix himself, he took it out on others. God help this society. What a screwed up place America has become.

Oversoul

Quote from: UFO Fill on July 23, 2012, 11:39:16 AM
I'd like to know if he was on any of the drugs that the school shooters of the 90s were on.  Doctors said the Columbine killers' brains were awash with serotonin and had been on anti-depressants.  Otherwise, it looks like he had been in decline for some time.

I do wonder what his mother meant when she said "You've got the right guy."

Some news is slowly coming out about Holmes: about seeking some clinical help before, about using marijuana, about his neuroscience self-experimentations.  Also about drugs that may have been involved, Vicodin being one of them.  Like I said, his downhill slide may have been going on for several years now.  His parents may have known something about this.  Let's see what else unfolds.
 

HAL 9000

Quote from: Oversoul on July 23, 2012, 01:30:06 PMSome news is slowly coming out about Holmes: about seeking some clinical help before, about using marijuana, about his neuroscience self-experimentations. [insert: introspection] Also about drugs that may have been involved, Vicodin being one of them.

Huh? And the above is different or unique how?

Pretty much sounds like everyone under the age of 35 in the 60's, and a whole lot of people I know or work with now.

Oversoul

Quote from: HAL 9000 on July 23, 2012, 02:09:32 PM
Pretty much sounds like everyone under the age of 35 in the 60's, and a whole lot of people I know or work with now.

Wow!  THAT sounds scary.  ;D

HAL 9000

Quote from: Oversoul on July 23, 2012, 02:21:06 PMWow!  THAT sounds scary.  ;D

I'm not sure how... I know lots of people who have been to a mental health professional for help; I'm about the only person I know who hasn't used marijuana before; neuro-science experimentations = trying a drug(s) to evaluate its effects (think alcohol, Quaaludes, even Adderall by college students to help focus while studying before an exam); and I'm guessing almost everyone I know has had Vicodin at some point. Are the above revelations somehow scary?

Only if one is a drone, lending credence to the hype of the MSM to explain away the acts of a criminal.

HAL 9000

Quote from: Frys Girl on July 23, 2012, 03:39:29 PMHis mother knew he was a bad seed.

Now that part is scary. Time will allow us to get a better idea as to what she suspected - I'm guessing no matter what she saw, she never could've envisioned this level of carnage.

ziznak

Quote from: Oversoul on July 23, 2012, 01:30:06 PM
about seeking some clinical help before, about using marijuana, about his neuroscience self-experimentations.  Also about drugs that may have been involved, Vicodin being one of them.  Like I said, his downhill slide may have been going on for several years now.  His parents may have known something about this.  Let's see what else unfolds.
There are ton's of overly medicated shrink seeing loners in the world.  I've never met any one who got high smoking pot and then became anything but hungry, happy, horny, or sleepy...

ah man that reminds of some comic bit but I can't remember who it was. 

Anyway, leave Mary J out of it... now the anti-depressants that they feed people seem kinda suspect.  When I see "thoughts of suicide" in a medication description I think of how hard it could be to add "thoughts of murder suicide" into the mix.

Frys Girl

Quote from: HAL 9000 on July 23, 2012, 03:46:50 PM
Now that part is scary. Time will allow us to get a better idea as to what she suspected - I'm guessing no matter what she saw, she never could've envisioned this level of carnage.
I deleted that because the family is now saying they support the son and are denying that the mom said "you have the right person" in regards to the shooting.

McPhallus

Plenty of people with mediocre intelligence are killers, too, and I think if there were a connection we'd have heard something by now about "temporal illusion."  I think you may be trying to shoehorn the situation a little to fit your theory.


Quote from: Oversoul on July 23, 2012, 09:18:06 AM
I don't think we are saying James Holmes was a "tortured genius" in this thread.  On the contrary, we are admitting the FAILED expression of the genius that he could have been as a neuroscientist. 

And we are trying to see and understand how or why his genius (Dr. Jeykll) failed him ultimately as the dark side of his personality (Mr. Hyde) took over overwhelmingly.  It may help us understand the human condition better.

You are right: Holmes' condition does suggest a mental illness such as schizophrenia.  However, we are further exploring if his self-admitted experimentation with "temporal illusions" as a science enthusiast then and as a neuroscientist later (now) might have contributed to that or even actually caused it.  That is why the present thread is titled "Temporal Illusion and 'The Joker' James Holmes."

BTW, IMHO from a science point of view, temporal illusion seems to be a more plausible scientific topic than Richard Hoaxland's torsion physics theories.



Oversoul

Quote from: McPhallus on July 23, 2012, 04:28:03 PM
Plenty of people with mediocre intelligence are killers, too, and I think if there were a connection we'd have heard something by now about "temporal illusion."  I think you may be trying to shoehorn the situation a little to fit your theory.

Quite the contrary, I merely picked up what's already been thrown publicly out there by others, to sound them off here.  I did not advance any original theory coming from me about his temporal illusion connection.  The news media and other bloggers elsewhere did.  My original post merely raised questions for open discussion here.  I did not lay out any firm theory about the man to thrust down on people here.  Didn't you notice the many question marks I used in the thread's original post?

Do take the time to follow, view, read and scrutinize the active links to other sites embedded in my original post under this thread.  Those links say a lot, lot more than my own posts here have, particularly about Holmes' personal fascination with the concept of temporal illusion and his mental state.  Please check them out before accusing me of peddling a pet theory here.  :)

  (Sigh.)

Frys Girl

They should have shaved his head. What the hell? We have to see his freakshow carry on?

Oversoul

Quote from: Frys Girl on July 23, 2012, 05:02:53 PM
They should have shaved his head. What the hell? We have to see his freakshow carry on?

Or they could have dyed his hair another color, say pink or electric blue!   ;D

I suppose people wanted to see a circus, and they got to see the clown.  Might as well enjoy the circus.  Admission's free.  ;)

 

Frys Girl

Quote from: Oversoul on July 23, 2012, 05:24:57 PM
Or they could have dyed his hair another color, say pink or electric blue!   ;D

I suppose people wanted to see a circus, and they got to see the clown.  Might as well enjoy the circus.  Admission's free.  ;)
I disagree. I want to see him stripped of any opportunity for attention as it pertains to his fantasy. His lawyer probably wanted the dumb style to stay so the public would say "of course he's crazy."

Oversoul

Quote from: Frys Girl on July 23, 2012, 05:36:27 PM
I disagree. I want to see him stripped of any opportunity for attention as it pertains to his fantasy. His lawyer probably wanted the dumb style to stay so the public would say "of course he's crazy."

Isn't he?  Crazy?   ???

Frys Girl

Quote from: Oversoul on July 23, 2012, 05:43:27 PM
Isn't he?  Crazy?   ???
Anyone who kills is crazy. He is a murderer and that should not be overshadowed by mental illness. He was just a loser who couldn't cope.

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