Art Bell

[pate]

NeuArtSalve:

http://www.paintinghere.com/painting/dirck_bouts_prophet_elijah_in_the_desert_697.html

das ist trollich>?

[Value Of Pi]

Well played old chum! 

I do what I can -- at all times.

[Lilith]

i guess i'm supposed to read this?

...as JackStar would say:

tl/dr

[Lilith]

What rules are there, except for no double posting and no quotes of long pieces of text that can be linked to?

Not that I think more rules are necessarily the answer. But there is an answer, other than trying to contain the posts in question to the Politics thread and declaring it a high blood pressure zone.

Also, it's important to get this problem under control sooner rather than later because this is an advertising-supported site. The risks of allowing that Nazi Racist bullshit to continue are substantial.

I defend your right to express your feelings about bellgab, but I like MV's forum exactly the way it is, otherwise I would leave, and spend my time at a different forum instead.  I think you are enjoying this forum just the way it is as well, otherwise you would choose a different forum to spend your time on. I think you are enjoying making long posts trying to explain to us how socially unacceptable and politically incorrect many of us are. (Nothing wrong with that). Sticks and stones and all that...  Many spend their time lurking and rarely post because they don't want to "see themselves" as a participant in the "bellgab culture".  But they ARE participating in the bellgab culture for the simple reason that they cannot refrain from lurking here.  They may not wish to be seen to enjoy the "bellgab culture", but if they didn't enjoy it exactly the way it is, they wouldn't lurk here. IMO.  I could be wrong.

[Value Of Pi]

I defend your right to express your feelings about bellgab, but I like MV's forum exactly the way it is, otherwise I would leave, and spend my time at a different forum instead.  I think you are enjoying this forum just the way it is as well, otherwise you would choose a different forum to spend your time on. I think you are enjoying making long posts trying to explain to us how socially unacceptable and politically incorrect many of us are. (Nothing wrong with that). Sticks and stones and all that...  Many spend their time lurking and rarely post because they don't want to "see themselves" as a participant in the "bellgab culture".  But they ARE participating in the bellgab culture for the simple reason that they cannot refrain from lurking here.  They may not wish to be seen to enjoy the "bellgab culture", but if they didn't enjoy it exactly the way it is, they wouldn't lurk here. IMO.  I could be wrong.

I really doubt you would miss the kind of people I'm talking about, Brig. I'm talking about the worst of the worst, not the typical BellGab poster who crosses the line here and there.

As good a place as this often is, in spite of them, it would be better without them. If you had seen some of the posts they have made, I'm sure you would agree. The BellGab crowd and culture are, as Art says, vaguely lovable. These people are outright despicable, as is the poison they spread wherever they can.

Also, I'm sorry but your logic that this place must be "exactly" the way people want it, otherwise they wouldn't be here, just doesn't follow. Most things in this world are a mixture of good, not so good, and just plain awful. BellGab is no different, so I will call it as I see it, whenever I see the need.

[Lilith]

I really doubt you would miss the kind of people I'm talking about, Brig. I'm talking about the worst of the worst, not the typical BellGab poster who crosses the line here and there.

As good a place as this often is, in spite of them, it would be better without them. If you had seen some of the posts they have made, I'm sure you would agree. The BellGab crowd and culture are, as Art says, vaguely lovable. These people are outright despicable, as is the poison they spread wherever they can.

Also, I'm sorry but your logic that this place must be "exactly" the way people want it, otherwise they wouldn't be here, just doesn't follow. Most things in this world are a mixture of good, not so good, and just plain awful. BellGab is no different, so I will call it as I see it, whenever I see the need.

Do you continue to return to a restaurant where you don't like the food?  Asking for a friend.

[Lilith]

I really doubt you would miss the kind of people I'm talking about, Brig. I'm talking about the worst of the worst, not the typical BellGab poster who crosses the line here and there.

As good a place as this often is, in spite of them, it would be better without them. If you had seen some of the posts they have made, I'm sure you would agree. The BellGab crowd and culture are, as Art says, vaguely lovable. These people are outright despicable, as is the poison they spread wherever they can.

Also, I'm sorry but your logic that this place must be "exactly" the way people want it, otherwise they wouldn't be here, just doesn't follow. Most things in this world are a mixture of good, not so good, and just plain awful. BellGab is no different, so I will call it as I see it, whenever I see the need.

...as every bellgabber is free to do. 

Praise MV!

FRIENDSHIP
(wait, wrong thread)

[Value Of Pi]

Do you continue to return to a restaurant where you don't like the food?  Asking for a friend.

I frequently return to restaurants where I don't like some of the food. I skip those dishes and stick to the ones they're good at. OTOH, if everything everyone has is terrible, I don't go back. We're having the "everything is not black and white" conversation again.

[Value Of Pi]

Your presence is requested in the Donald Trump thread. There is a mean, nasty Hillary supporter postijg racist memes. Burning crosses and stuff. Please berate the offender.

So you wanna deputize me, then? Because my usual reaction to burning crosses and stuff like that is to see if there's a cop around. As it happens, I did take a peek in there earlier and noticed that right there was, well, not a cop, but definitely the guy you might want to go to when things get out of hand.

Turns out, he wasn't having a problem with any of those memes. So, you know, what can you do but blame the, uh, authorities for standing around and not doing anything? You know what I mean? It really is a very unfortunate situation, though. I agree.

[Lilith]

So you wanna deputize me, then? Because my usual reaction to burning crosses and stuff like that is to see if there's a cop around. As it happens, I did take a peek in there earlier and noticed that right there was, well, not a cop, but definitely the guy you might want to go to when things get out of hand.

Turns out, he wasn't having a problem with any of those memes. So, you know, what can you do but blame the, uh, authorities for standing around and not doing anything? You know what I mean? It really is a very unfortunate situation, though. I agree.

You mean "the police"?  We used to think of them as being employed by the public, their salaries being made up of our tax dollars. How they came to being thought of as being our "authorities" I have no idea.  Must have been some evil "meme magic".

I don't think MV would like to be thought of as an "authority". Nor do I think he sees himself as "having authority" over us.

I think he considers himself to be the "provider" of a "moderator free zone".

I applaud him for that.  It's not a position that a coward would take.

Praise MV!

[pate]

... "bellgab culture"... 

Heretic! Eye can haz no culture!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sglyFwTjfDU

[Lilith]

I frequently return to restaurants where I don't like some of the food. I skip those dishes and stick to the ones they're good at. OTOH, if everything everyone has is terrible, I don't go back. We're having the "everything is not black and white" conversation again.

There is value in learning to accept the "bad" along with the "good"  MOST areas are grey, which could not exist without both black and white.

Good and Bad are relative, "One mans trash is another mans treasure".  In a divorce, it's always "the other guys fault".  In a heated disagreement, the "other guy" is always wrong. "the idiot" "the moron"  Sticks and stones and all that there again...

In a moderated forum, any posts the moderator finds offensive, are bad and wrong, in their opinion, and will be removed.

This is not a moderated forum.
I like it here because it is not a moderated forum.

[Lilith]

Heretic! Eye can haz no culture!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sglyFwTjfDU

FRIENDSHIP 

[Value Of Pi]

You mean "the police"?  We used to think of them as being employed by the public, their salaries being made up of our tax dollars. How they came to being thought of as being our "authorities" I have no idea.  Must have been some evil "meme magic".

I don't think MV would like to be thought of as an "authority". Nor do I think he sees himself as "having authority" over us.

I think he considers himself to be the "provider" of a "moderator free zone".

I applaud him for that.  It's not a position that a coward would take.

Praise MV!

That was sarcasm. MV is anything but an authority.

[Value Of Pi]

There is value in learning to accept the "bad" along with the "good"  MOST areas are grey, which could not exist without both black and white.

Good and Bad are relative, "One mans trash is another mans treasure".  In a divorce, it's always "the other guys fault".  In a heated disagreement, the "other guy" is always wrong. "the idiot" "the moron"  Sticks and stones and all that there again...

In a moderated forum, any posts the moderator finds offensive, are bad and wrong, in their opinion, and will be removed.

This is not a moderated forum.
I like it here because it is not a moderated forum.

Technically, only Politics is unmoderated. But, in reality, you're right -- no part of this forum is moderated.

As for other forums, they each have their own ways of doing the moderation job. Usually, the moderator is just trying to apply the rules, not acting according to personal likes and dislikes. Some are better at the job than others. In the best moderated forums, the moderator hardly ever needs to step in.

[SredniVashtar]

This is not about being offended by a small (but growing) portion of the content here. It's about the tacit acceptance of its presence and protection of it by the powers that be, which in this venue and others threatens to normalize it in the eyes of those who don't know any better. It's about the policy and the extremely weak grounds that justify it.

I disagree that it's 'acceptance', tacit or otherwise; more an acknowledgement that there are a plurality of opinions out there, some of them not very pleasant, and you can't sweep them under the carpet all the time. It's doesn't serve any purpose to pretend they don't exist, but we don't have to engage them, and that engagement is what these people crave more than anything. If you don't react they tend to get bored and go after easier targets.

The overall trend over time is for people to become more tolerant rather than less, and allowing a few idiots to speak their minds isn't going to change that. The fuss about Trump over the last year or so is proof of that, because the stuff he is saying probably wouldn't have raised many eyebrows a few decades ago, but now a large section of society is horrified by it. You are always going to get a segment of society that is dumber than dirt, and I don't think operating a kind of elitism-in-reverse is going to do much good for anybody.

This is not a freedom of speech/First Amendment issue, since government censorship is not involved. Many Americans don't understand that speech is limited all the time by private entities, like businesses and parents, to enforce whatever standards they value. People still get plenty of opportunity to express themselves freely in this society.

This is the point. MV isn't anybody's father, or employer here. Are you seriously suggesting that BG is a comparable example? If you adopt a paternalistic attitude here all you end up with is an echo chamber. Some people wanted that when Art was here, and thankfully that temptation was resisted. The idea of free speech is that it should be awkward and annoy people; if everyone were mouthing bromides and platitudes all the time then the idea of free speech wouldn't need defending. The obviously bad ideas get shot down openly, in debate, while the better ones are gradually adopted in the world.

On the practical question of how to maintain the open and free-wheeling nature of the site while still taking out the trash as needed, I'll say this one more time. It's very doable. The problem is in not having the skills to manage the site to this end and, I would guess, not wanting to take the trouble to learn them. That, by the way, is as harsh a judgement on MV as it needs to be since he's the sole owner/operator. It's all on him.

I'm sure there is something you could do with keywords and so on, but my concern would be what sort of site you'd end up with. However sophisticated it might be, it will inevitably be heavy-handed and do more harm than good. I speak from personal experience, because I have been both banned (graze MV!) and censored (still sore about that). In both cases they amounted to crimes against humanity. He later explained that he's been sniffing a lot of lighter fluid at the time, but the fact remains that I was - however temporarily - a resident of the deplorable basket, and you might well have been permanently deprived of my charming and benevolent presence. I think it's about accepting a small amount of bad if you want to retain the good.

This whole matter, by the way, is happening with a national election, and the spectre of Donald Trump, hanging over the country. There's a lot of the Trumpian mindset in MV's excuses for not taking a stand on the worst bigots and racists around us here on BellGab. Trump sets a great example for how to do that.

As much as I dislike Trump, I'd rather he ran BellGab than Hillary. I hope they get this whole issue sorted out in the debate because I want to know where they both stand on the BellGab question, and I don't want the whole thing taken up by trivialities like the economy and foreign policy.

Anyway, here's one last bit of irony that I know you'll appreciate. I've gotten a much tougher tongue-lashing from MV for my views on dealing with racism and bigotry at BellGab than the racists and bigots have gotten from him for their postings. As I pointed out in my Top Right Corner quotation, these guys have a home and a safe space here and they know it.

I used to get into arguments with Nazi types on here, before I realised it was a waste of time. But if someone criticises me then I will probably react to it. I can't waste my time correcting everybody's idiotic ideas, but I would be more inclined to engage someone if it touched me personally. I think that's all MV is doing, and you are reading too much into the rest of it.

[PaulAtreides]

ANNOUNCEMENT:
I  just killed the biggest goddam roach you ever saw. Well, me and the first section of The Wall Street Journal anyway -- he went out in style. The creature in the monster movie we were just watching had nothing on this guy. Huzzah! Score one for our side.

I'm impressed.  I thought I was the only one on this forum who read the Wall Street Journal.

[K_Dubb]

You mean "the police"?  We used to think of them as being employed by the public, their salaries being made up of our tax dollars. How they came to being thought of as being our "authorities" I have no idea.  Must have been some evil "meme magic".

I don't think MV would like to be thought of as an "authority". Nor do I think he sees himself as "having authority" over us.

I think he considers himself to be the "provider" of a "moderator free zone".

I applaud him for that.  It's not a position that a coward would take.

Praise MV!

Thank you for making this point again, Brig.  We are the authorities.  Applying the term to our public servants is an abdication of responsibility as well as an abuse of etymology.

I have a couple friends who cast themselves as radical communists, calling for revolution, posting old Soviet-era propaganda, and lauding Kim Jong-un.  Staking out increasingly extreme positions to be provocative is just a thing kids do now.  If you don't get it and try to engage them seriously, the joke's on you.

[Donald Noory]

ANNOUNCEMENT:
I  just killed the biggest goddam roach you ever saw. Well, me and the first section of The Wall Street Journal anyway -- he went out in style. The creature in the monster movie we were just watching had nothing on this guy. Huzzah! Score one for our side.

Well, that's one less Trump voter then.

[Value Of Pi]

You're making a lot of different points, so I'll just go down the list and tell you my reaction.

I disagree that it's 'acceptance', tacit or otherwise; more an acknowledgement that there are a plurality of opinions out there, some of them not very pleasant, and you can't sweep them under the carpet all the time. It's doesn't serve any purpose to pretend they don't exist, but we don't have to engage them, and that engagement is what these people crave more than anything. If you don't react they tend to get bored and go after easier targets.

We'll just have to disagree on the acceptance aspect. If someone has the power (and MV does, inarguably) to allow or prevent a situation from occurring and chooses to allow it, they have at least some responsibility for that situation. They can try to make the case that the situation is not so bad or that it is a necessary evil, but they are playing a role in helping to perpetuate it and, possibly, achieve its purpose in existing. At a minimum, that is acceptance.

On engagement or non-engagement, it seems as if you are looking at the problem narrowly, only in terms of the Internet and forum participation. My perspective is much broader in that the problem posters I am singling out are part of an actual movement (card-carrying or not) to keep alive and spread what is essentially Nazi or Nazi-derived ideology, propaganda and hate. If you think that the threat is long past, you are very sadly mistaken.

Some Americans, expressing their pride in the First Amendment, look down on the Germans for having the audacity to ban Nazi symbols and speech. The difference is that Germans understand the risks involved with accepting or "acknowledging" its presence on their streets, on their Internet sites, and any other place in their jurisdiction. America faces risks very similar to Germsny's, in spite of the strength of our traditions and constitution. It can indeed happen here. Individually, the least we can do is acknowledge the danger and do our part to hinder it and not help feed the flames.

The flames are very openly burning in this election. Maybe you can't see them from where you are, but many of us here can. The danger of normalizing and making tolerable the kind of vitriol coming from a President Trump is clear and present. Sure, this is only one forum and "it doesn't amount to a hill of beans" but the battle that good people always need to fight usually takes place in small, seemingly isolated places, day in, day out. BellGab does not get or deserve sn exemption pass.

The overall trend over time is for people to become more tolerant rather than less, and allowing a few idiots to speak their minds isn't going to change that. The fuss about Trump over the last year or so is proof of that, because the stuff he is saying probably wouldn't have raised many eyebrows a few decades ago, but now a large section of society is horrified by it. You are always going to get a segment of society that is dumber than dirt, and I don't think operating a kind of elitism-in-reverse is going to do much good for anybody.

I totally disagree with this assessment. I see intolerance growing at just as fast a pace as tolerance over the past several decades. Trump would not only have raised eyebrows not that long ago, he would have been sent packing. No way he would get the votes to get nominated. His support is unlike anything seen since voters supported Jim Crow laws.

This is the point. MV isn't anybody's father, or employer here. Are you seriously suggesting that BG is a comparable example? If you adopt a paternalistic attitude here all you end up with is an echo chamber. Some people wanted that when Art was here, and thankfully that temptation was resisted. The idea of free speech is that it should be awkward and annoy people; if everyone were mouthing bromides and platitudes all the time then the idea of free speech wouldn't need defending. The obviously bad ideas get shot down openly, in debate, while the better ones are gradually adopted in the world.

I'm sure there is something you could do with keywords and so on, but my concern would be what sort of site you'd end up with. However sophisticated it might be, it will inevitably be heavy-handed and do more harm than good. I speak from personal experience, because I have been both banned (graze MV!) and censored (still sore about that). In both cases they amounted to crimes against humanity. He later explained that he's been sniffing a lot of lighter fluid at the time, but the fact remains that I was - however temporarily - a resident of the deplorable basket, and you might well have been permanently deprived of my charming and benevolent presence. I think it's about accepting a small amount of bad if you want to retain the good.

As much as I dislike Trump, I'd rather he ran BellGab than Hillary. I hope they get this whole issue sorted out in the debate because I want to know where they both stand on the BellGab question, and I don't want the whole thing taken up by trivialities like the economy and foreign policy.

I used to get into arguments with Nazi types on here, before I realised it was a waste of time. But if someone criticises me then I will probably react to it. I can't waste my time correcting everybody's idiotic ideas, but I would be more inclined to engage someone if it touched me personally. I think that's all MV is doing, and you are reading too much into the rest of it.

Like most others who have responded, you have managed to project on me your worst fears for what BellGab would become if the attempt was made to eliminate the presence of the worst of the worst. My sense of what needs to be done to improve this site is not so dramatic or so ominous.

BTW, you were wise not to engage in arguments with Nazi types. This is a pointless exercise. However, we greatly differ on the issue of whether we can afford to simply ignore their presence. I say we can't and I say that with the broad perspective that's needed in this discussion.

[Value Of Pi]

I'm impressed.  I thought I was the only one on this forum who read the Wall Street Journal.

The roach was also impressed, I'm sure, even though he barely had time to read a single headline.

BTW, Art's mouse might have been fearless, but so was this guy. Once I snuck up on him and had him dead to rights out in the open, he simply stood there and looked me in the eye. He didn't try to run like the rest of his species normally does. He took his fate like a real man -- or rather, roach.

[Rix Gins]

I listened to part of a random Art show earlier, while shaving.  It's kind of fun to drop into one of the shows and then try to guess the year it was broadcast.  On this one, (an open lines show) Art was complaining about feminists going out of their way to join men's only institutions.  "I mean, how many men try to join women's only organizations?"  Art asked.

Another caller brought up the subject of braille buttons to push at ATM's.  "No," Art cut the guy off.  "I just don't believe that those are in use.  I think that that's an urban myth.  No such thing." 

Then a religious caller challenged Art's view on whether a person who has murdered should be spared the electric chair by finding God at the last minute.  The caller typically said that only God can judge by looking into the killer's heart to see if he really meant it or not.  And then the caller said, "By the way, I think that Clinton is going to loose."  Now this really set Art off and he gave a spirited description of Robert Doyle and listed many of his good quality's and all, but noted how Bill Clinton operated and that it would be an easy Clinton win.  Then he brought up the interesting fact that this would be the last chance to have a person who had been in World War II, be President. 

So when was it?  A commercial break came on and Ross said that the re-broadcast was from a show on August 14, 1996.  (At first I thought he said 1999 but that wouldn't have been correct.) 

 

[Robert]

The roach was also impressed, I'm sure, even though he barely had time to read a single headline.

"Hey, Universal Chitin Polish split 3 for 1!  Things are finally looking [splat]."

BTW, Art's mouse might have been fearless, but so was this guy. Once I snuck up on him and had him dead to rights out in the open, he simply stood there and looked me in the eye. He didn't try to run like the rest of his species normally does. He took his fate like a real man -- or rather, roach.

Can we start a Roachy meme to compete w Pepe?

Cockroach, not cuckroach!  Bugs, not drugs!

Wolfie looks like he approves.

[Value Of Pi]

I listened to part of a random Art show earlier, while shaving.  It's kind of fun to drop into one of the shows and then try to guess the year it was broadcast.  On this one, (an open lines show) Art was complaining about feminists going out of their way to join men's only institutions.  "I mean, how many men try to join women's only organizations?"  Art asked.

Another caller brought up the subject of braille buttons to push at ATM's.  "No," Art cut the guy off.  "I just don't believe that those are in use.  I think that that's an urban myth.  No such thing." 

Then a religious caller challenged Art's view on whether a person who has murdered should be spared the electric chair by finding God at the last minute.  The caller typically said that only God can judge by looking into the killer's heart to see if he really meant it or not.  And then the caller said, "By the way, I think that Clinton is going to loose."  Now this really set Art off and he gave a spirited description of Robert Doyle and listed many of his good quality's and all, but noted how Bill Clinton operated and that it would be an easy Clinton win.  Then he brought up the interesting fact that this would be the last chance to have a person who had been in World War II, be President. 

So when was it?  A commercial break came on and Ross said that the re-broadcast was from a show on August 14, 1996.  (At first I thought he said 1999 but that wouldn't have been correct.) 

I would keep this idea for the day that BellGab expands into game shows. All that's missing is Vanna White (she'd be about the right age for it at this point).

[Value Of Pi]

"Hey, Universal Chitin Polish split 3 for 1!  Things are finally looking [splat]."Can we start a Roachy meme to compete w Pepe?

Cockroach, not cuckroach!  Bugs, not drugs!

Wolfie looks like he approves.

Once you got over your instinctive revulsion for the little critters (not that I've done that), they might engender some respect. After all, they were here long before the human race and will be here long after we're gone.

I have to say though, I have never seen a cute roach. So that would be a big challenge for any illustratot.

[Rix Gins]

I would keep this idea for the day that BellGab expands into game shows. All that's missing is Vanna White (she'd be about the right age for it at this point).

Haha  When I was a kid in grade school I called vowels 'valves'.

[WOTR]

Hi all;

It has been awhile since I have checked into this thread.  Can somebody tell me if the meating with Bob and su Crain, Art and keith is on or off?

Thanks.

[aldousburbank]

Hi all;

It has been awhile since I have checked into this thread.  Can somebody tell me if the meating with Bob and su Crain, Art and keith is on or off?

Yes.

[PB the Deplorable]

... the problem posters I am singling out are part of an actual movement (card-carrying or not) to keep alive and spread what is essentially Nazi or Nazi-derived ideology, propaganda and hate...

... The flames are very openly burning in this election. Maybe you can't see them from where you are, but many of us here can. The danger of normalizing and making tolerable the kind of vitriol coming from a President Trump is clear and present.

... His [Trump's] support is unlike anything seen since voters supported Jim Crow laws.

This is remarkably asinine, even for you, which is saying a lot.

We need to control our borders.  Please tell me, what on earth is wrong with that?  We have cartel members, gang members, and common violent criminals flowing in.  The sane among us want to end that.

We need to be very prudent which - if any - refugees we accept from the violent Muslim world.  I'm not going to bother going into the why's of that, they are many and should be obvious.  If you really don't have any idea what I'm talking about, I'll be happy to point them out in another post.  We have the right to do what's best for OUR country - believe it or not that's what we elect our government officials to do.

To compare any of that to the Nazi's, to Jim Crow laws - really?  To put it plainly, that's pretty stupid.  To compare prudent immigration policy to Nazi's and Jim Crow is to diminish the real evils of those.  You should be ashamed of yourself.


Beyond that, let's look at some recent Left-Wing phenomena:  Marching in the streets, street mob violence and thuggery, shouting down speakers they don't agree with, attacking police - that's not democracy, it's what those who seek to destroy democracy do.  If you are such an expert on the Nazi's, these should not be difficult connections to make.

A cartoon frog - who else out in the world routinely loses their shit over cartoons?  Oh right, al-Qaeda and the rest of the violent Moslems.  Just yesterday in Jordan some Islamic fanatic shot and killed a journalist there over some cartoons he didn't like.  The Left is not democratic, but is happy to use our freedoms against us.  They are on the same ideological side as the violent Moslems when it comes to speech, including cartoon suppression.  Unfortunately the comparisons don't end there. 

This whole idea that everything and anyone who doesn't agree with the Liberals, and now the 'Progressives', is somehow racist has gone from a sleazy but unfortunately effective way to get votes and stifle debate, to the point now where these fools are everywhere trying to upstage each other in finding new examples of 'racism', new reasons to trash the country.  They are stooges for the anti-democratic forces trying to divide this nation by race, and ultimately destroy it.  You really don't get that?

[ge30542]

PaperBoy has his finger on the pulse of truth and reality.