Art Bell

[GuerrillaUnReal]

I don't even find her interesting enough to make fun of anymore.

[VegasI15]

My point was claiming to be a "rape survivor" has become fashionable. Lady Gaga choosing to use 'The Oscars' as a social/political platform (with a song to go along with it, too) seems suspicious too me. Being that she's an entertainer, it's in her best interest to stay relevant. Is that a cynical viewpoint; yes.

I am not denying rape occurs. However, if you are a victim of a crime please report it to the police. Accusations are not proof.

This is a valid point.  It begs the question whether a major awards program is the proper platform to push certain social causes.  One of the many reasons I gave up watching the Oscars, Grammys (insert your favorite awards show here) years ago.  Is it too much to ask to have just entertainment for an hour or 2?  There is enough bombardment the other 22 hours of the day with everyone pushing their own causes. 

[WOTR]

The graph is flawed.  If the debt is $1 when I take office and I put it at $2, the change is a 100% increase.If it is 1 trillion, and I bump it up to 1.5 trillion, it is only a 50% increase.  That graph makes deficit spending of $1 look twice as bad as spending $500 000 000 at a later date in time (once the debt has been sufficiently increased.)

The higher the starting number, the more you can spend and still look good.  The next president has trillions to play with before he even starts to register on the graph.

[pate]

Also it is going by per capita, or population. 1/2 is larger percentage wise than 1/4?  I think, my maths skills are a bit rusty.  Stupid 'murican skool system.

T or F?:  US Population 1984 < US Population 2016.

Anyhow this thread is getting all off-topic, math 'n stuff is more science, not art.

[WOTR]

Sorry Pate.  More art, less politics.... But you are right on the population as well.

[The King of Kings]

My point was claiming to be a "rape survivor" has become fashionable.

Yeah, I don't understand "rape survivor" either.

Of course you survived, if you didn't it would have been murder.

[Value Of Pi]

The graph is flawed.  If the debt is $1 when I take office and I put it at $2, the change is a 100% increase.If it is 1 trillion, and I bump it up to 1.5 trillion, it is only a 50% increase.  That graph makes deficit spending of $1 look twice as bad as spending $500 000 000 at a later date in time (once the debt has been sufficiently increased.)

The higher the starting number, the more you can spend and still look good.  The next president has trillions to play with before he even starts to register on the graph.

Graphs like this need to be looked at in the context of other graphs showing other numbers and trends. They each show one aspect of the situation. I wouldn't call that a flaw, just a limitation. You've got to see the whole picture before making a judgement.

[ge30542]

The time has come, a fact's a fact, it belongs to them, let's give it back.

[WOTR]

Graphs like this need to be looked at in the context of other graphs showing other numbers and trends. They each show one aspect of the situation. I wouldn't call that a flaw, just a limitation. You've got to see the whole picture before making a judgement.

The graph may not be "flawed" but it is extremely misleading.  I would agree that many other graphs are more interesting and help to make a better judgement.  I kind of like the debt to GDP graphs.  Also, the MZM is interesting.  There are a ton of charts that give a better picture (it is also good to know who controlled which house during which years and not just the president if you want a better picture by year and president.  I had a chart years ago- but I don't know where to find it now.) 

Most people have seen the debt / gdp chart... Most probably have not seen the MZM- so I will give the one publised by the St. Louis Fed.  It should give people pause...

Also, if you take the two charts and compare them, you will see why I say that the given chart was misleading.  It is the equivalent of the second chart in this post (only comparing the change year over year.  The more money available in the first chart- the actual supply of money, the less impact the second chart has on it... You will notice the last few years the "change" chart is going down while the actual supply continues on a nice upward trajectory.)

[Value Of Pi]

The graph may not be "flawed" but it is extremely misleading.  I would agree that many other graphs are more interesting and help to make a better judgement.  I kind of like the debt to GDP graphs.  Also, the MZM is interesting.  There are a ton of charts that give a better picture (it is also good to know who controlled which house during which years and not just the president if you want a better picture by year and president.  I had a chart years ago- but I don't know where to find it now.) 

Most people have seen the debt / gdp chart... Most probably have not seen the MZM- so I will give the one publised by the St. Louis Fed.  It should give people pause...

Also, if you take the two charts and compare them, you will see why I say that the given chart was misleading.  It is the equivalent of the second chart in this post (only comparing the change year over year.  The more money available in the first chart- the actual supply of money, the less impact the second chart has on it... You will notice the last few years the "change" chart is going down while the actual supply continues on a nice upward trajectory.)

Assuming I'm reading this right, the first chart shows total dollars in circulation. That trend is up, national debt is up (so says the national debt clock), per capita debt is up (I would guess, adjusted for population growth and other factors) -- so it's a clear long-term trend regardless of year to year ups and downs. GNP is up also, but not enough for anyone to be comfortable.

To me, the real question is how much spending and how much debt are sustainable without triggering massive inflation, recession, depression or whatever economic and social calamity. You can't judge this without making assumptions about America's ability to compete and produce salable goods and services in the future and be successful in a global economy. This is all new and largely unexplored territory.

So, I'm very concerned but I don't know if things are better or worse than the pessimists say they are. I'll hold off on jumping out the window for now. But thanks for helping to balance the picture. I don't think the previous chart, by itself, would convince too many people.

[Gruntled]

I just want all of you to know:  even though Cthulu is not running this year I will write him in on my ballot.  "NO LIVES MATTER!"

Although, the Santa Claus/Easter Bunny ticket is tempting (free goodies, yo!), I am Not Sure that I can forgive Santa for the 'naughty list' debacle of 1987.  My GI Joe(tm) USS Flagg aircraft carrier at #1 on the Dear Santa list was missing that year.  I blame all my adult-life misfortunes and mishaps on this heinous Christmas omission;  if only I had had the USS Flagg my childhood friends would still be friends.

1. The dream of assembling my own personal A-Team to seek out and capture/kill bigfoot would even now be a weekly cliff-hanger series on the History Channel.

2. I would have the Blue Bird school bus converted into a half-track combo tank & Recreational Vehicle (with custom turret, probably from a HumVee).

3. I would already be "Dictator-for-Life" and would have completed my dream of breaking into the Smithsonian (or Library of Congress, bqwhatever) and threatening to burn the original copy of the Constitution if not elected on LIVE BROADCAST TV, then burning it anyway after I got elected, just for "shits 'n giggles" (shits 'n giggles was the ancient precursor to lol or lulz)...

4. Commodore Business Machines would have vanquished IBM/MS, Apple, Tandy, AND Radio Shack by now under my astute leadership of that fine Fortune 500 company.  I was going to work for CBM, after college and eventually rise to be Chairman of the Board, or CEO or something.  That was where I was going to get my leadership credential for my eventual run for Dictator-for-Life.

I would list more examples of the complete adult-hood dream-crushing I have struggled and dealt with these past 30-odd years in trying to recover from the USS Flagg incident.  But, I don't think I have the thyme, and I believe no-one else has the interest.  Plus it is in keeping with Cthulu's slogan this year, not even my life matters...

Cthulu 2016!

my name is pate, and I approve this message.

Laughed like Hell at that.

[Auslandia]

The time has come, a fact's a fact, it belongs to them, let's give it back.

I don't know where you fall on the spectrum but just so you know, Peter Garret ain't no conservative.

[Richard Groyper]

Yeah, I don't understand "rape survivor" either.

Of course you survived, if you didn't it would have been murder.

Well, there's that too.   

[Richard Groyper]

This is a valid point.  It begs the question whether a major awards program is the proper platform to push certain social causes.  One of the many reasons I gave up watching the Oscars, Grammys (insert your favorite awards show here) years ago.  Is it too much to ask to have just entertainment for an hour or 2?  There is enough bombardment the other 22 hours of the day with everyone pushing their own causes.

I don't think touting personal agendas is going away anytime soon. It's annoying, but we're probably stuck with hearing about (whatever) cause indefinitely...

[stargazr1976]

Hey art.. fuck these cucks. Man up. Do an Rch and go on the damn mic man. For a small fee Ill personally take out your stalker. NO SHIT. God bless ya. Now man up.

[stargazr1976]

cesspool of shit lmao

[stargazr1976]

where the fuck is hilly rose?

[WOTR]

So, I'm very concerned but I don't know if things are better or worse than the pessimists say they are. I'll hold off on jumping out the window for now.

Defiantly the balanced approach (and the healthy one as well, given health care costs, should you survive the plunge from the window.)  I tend to agree with you.  It is not the end of the world- and even the GDP to debt chart is not the end of the world.  If you look at the 30's, there have been spikes before- and recovery was possible.  The problem is that I don't think that there is any appetite to reign it it, this time.  I think it may still be possible, but one day a line will be crossed...

[scottydawg]

Holy Fraq! The USS Flagg, haven't thought of that ship toy in years! It's time now to bring out a starship version, kinda of like the USS Enterprise with the different ships named Enterprise thru the centuries.
But for the love of god, no Admiral Keel Haul! My God that was the gayest G.I. Joe figure ever, it made the Village People look like Mormon missionaries!

[paladin1991]

where the fuck is hilly rose?

Dead?

[creepygreenlight]

For a small fee Ill personally take out your stalker.

Good deal, how much to magically heal Art's COPD woes?

[Lt.Uhura]

..  It is not the end of the world- and even the GDP to debt chart is not the end of the world.  If you look at the 30's, there have been spikes before- and recovery was possible.  The problem is that I don't think that there is any appetite to reign it it, this time.  I think it may still be possible, but one day a line will be crossed...

Historical trends will always be attached to the context from which they came.  The recovery from the Great Depression was accomplished by a nation of resourceful people who were able to rely on developing opportunities close to home.  Today we are merely consumer slaves owned by China and the corporate robber barons who've taken our economy away to third world locales. 

Meanwhile, Americans proudly fly their 'Made in China' American flags off their front porches, and sit hypnotized by mainstream media, reality TV, and a three-ring circus competition to elect our next fearless leader.  Methinks the line has been crossed.

[Jackstar]

Nailed it.

[PB the Deplorable]

That is a fair point. Guilty as charged. But, I don't say get rid of the military. I don't suggest it is a scam.

Look, if you can show me a way to get the free market to handle homelessness and mental illness, by all means take the floor...

As you know, my solution for the homeless problem is to reinstitutionalize the mentally ill who aren't able to care for themselves, provide better education and opportunity for those who aren't getting it and don't have it now, provide for the elderly and handicapped who truly aren't able to support themselves, and stop enabling those who would rather drink, take drugs, steal, and live the bum lifestyle.  There is already plenty of money - enough money - being spent to do this, if it were managed properly and spent wisely.  It would probably require removing the Libs from power and ignoring them though.

Ever since the ACLU and their allies were ultimately successful - with 3 decades, beginning in the 1950s, of court cases and legislation - in giving the mentally ill the option of leaving institutions where they were receiving necessary care and medication this has been a disaster.  The VA not taking care of returning veterans, the 'compassionate' allowing able bodied people to take over our streets and parks and live on 'entitlements' and petty crime.  None of this is going to be reversed until there is the will to do so.

... The so called war on poverty has been underfunded from the start...

The Libs and their allies (assorted Socialists, Progressives, Marxists, etc) have run our once vibrant cities almost exclusively since the late 1960s.  Look what they've done.

Horrible schools, rotten police, lousy justice systems, poverty, crime, crumbling infrastructure, companies that provide jobs products and services driven out, successful people driven to the suburbs, hopelessness, addiction, fatherless children, corruption, stifling taxes, red tape, waste, fraud, the list goes on.  It's not an issue of being 'underfunded', their policies simply have not worked, and in fact have been incredibly destructive. 


What we should be asking of those who want to continue on the current path - and to raise taxes and continue to spend more - is for a real proposal.  Exactly precisely what do they propose to address these issues, how much will it cost, over what period of time.  Include bench marks so we will know whether their plan is working, and if so to what extent.  What is their fallback if it continues to not work and ends up just being more of what we've been getting. 

To much - in lives, in resources, in who we are as a country - is at stake to just continue to demand ''More''.  50 years of this with negative results, no results, poor results, is no longer acceptable.  We need either a roadmap with measurables, or an admission of failure from these people

[ge30542]

Well said paper boy

[onan]

As you know, my solution for the homeless problem is to reinstitutionalize the mentally ill who aren't able to care for themselves, provide better education and opportunity for those who aren't getting it and don't have it now, provide for the elderly and handicapped who truly aren't able to support themselves, and stop enabling those who would rather drink, take drugs, steal, and live the bum lifestyle.  There is already plenty of money - enough money - being spent to do this, if it were managed properly and spent wisely.  It would probably require removing the Libs from power and ignoring them though.

Ever since the ACLU and their allies were ultimately successful - with 3 decades, beginning in the 1950s, of court cases and legislation - in giving the mentally ill the option of leaving institutions where they were receiving necessary care and medication this has been a disaster.  The VA not taking care of returning veterans, the 'compassionate' allowing able bodied people to take over our streets and parks and live on 'entitlements' and petty crime.  None of this is going to be reversed until there is the will to do so.


The Libs and their allies (assorted Socialists, Progressives, Marxists, etc) have run our once vibrant cities almost exclusively since the late 1960s.  Look what they've done.

Horrible schools, rotten police, lousy justice systems, poverty, crime, crumbling infrastructure, companies that provide jobs products and services driven out, successful people driven to the suburbs, hopelessness, addiction, fatherless children, corruption, stifling taxes, red tape, waste, fraud, the list goes on.  It's not an issue of being 'underfunded', their policies simply have not worked, and in fact have been incredibly destructive. 


What we should be asking of those who want to continue on the current path - and to raise taxes and continue to spend more - is for a real proposal.  Exactly precisely what do they propose to address these issues, how much will it cost, over what period of time.  Include bench marks so we will know whether their plan is working, and if so to what extent.  What is their fallback if it continues to not work and ends up just being more of what we've been getting. 

To much - in lives, in resources, in who we are as a country - is at stake to just continue to demand ''More''.  50 years of this with negative results, no results, poor results, is no longer acceptable.  We need either a roadmap with measurables, or an admission of failure from these people

It isn't all negative reports, contrary to your world view. I have explained this to you before. You however refuse to have any more depth to your opinion. It is all just a scam to take your dollars. I never see you bitch about the corporate welfare. I guess in your world we should just shoot them and be done with it.


    SNAP (formerly food stamps) lifted about 4.7 million people above the SPM poverty line (about $25,460 for a typical renter family of four).

    Supplemental Security Income, which assists aged and disabled individuals, lifted about 3.8 million people out of poverty.

    Rent subsidies lifted about 2.8 million people out of poverty.

    Unemployment insurance lifted about 0.8 million people out of poverty.

Those stats are from 2014.

Your perception is that people getting aid are just the same ne'er do wells, over and over again. That isn't reality. You and I have been down this road before, your position never changes. Even when presented with facts to the contrary.

[GravitySucks]

It isn't all negative reports, contrary to your world view. I have explained this to you before. You however refuse to have any more depth to your opinion. It is all just a scam to take your dollars. I never see you bitch about the corporate welfare. I guess in your world we should just shoot them and be done with it.


    SNAP (formerly food stamps) lifted about 4.7 million people above the SPM poverty line (about $25,460 for a typical renter family of four).

    Supplemental Security Income, which assists aged and disabled individuals, lifted about 3.8 million people out of poverty.

    Rent subsidies lifted about 2.8 million people out of poverty.

    Unemployment insurance lifted about 0.8 million people out of poverty.

Those stats are from 2014.

Your perception is that people getting aid are just the same ne'er do wells, over and over again. That isn't reality. You and I have been down this road before, your position never changes. Even when presented with facts to the contrary.

Please define corporate welfare.

[Jackstar]

Please define corporate welfare.

[onan]

Please define corporate welfare.

Oh ffs, GS.

General Electric has received more than $2.5 billion in direct loans and loan guarantees from the Ex-Im Bank.And what was the result?From 1975 to 1995 GE reduced its work force from 667,000 to 398,000, a decline of 269,000 jobs.

Research the Export-Import bank.

1. Bank of America CEO Brian Moynihan
Amount of federal income taxes paid in 2010? Zero. $1.9 billion tax refund.

2. Goldman Sachs CEO Lloyd Blankfein
Amount of federal income taxes paid in 2008? Zero. $278 million tax refund.

3. JP Morgan Chase CEO James Dimon
Taxpayer Bailout from the Federal Reserve and the Treasury Department? $416
billion.

4. General Electric CEO Jeffrey Immelt
Amount of federal income taxes paid in 2010? Zero. $3.3 billion tax refund.

5. Verizon CEO Lowell McAdam
Amount of federal income taxes paid in 2010? Zero. $705 million tax refund.

6. Boeing CEO James McNerney, Jr.
Amount of federal income taxes paid in 2010? None. $124 million tax refund.

. Honeywell International CEO David Cote
Amount of federal income taxes paid from 2008-2010? Zero. $34 million tax refund.

7. Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer
Amount of federal income taxes Microsoft would have owed if offshore tax havens
were eliminated? $19.4 billion.

9. Corning CEO Wendell Weeks
Amount of federal income taxes paid from 2008-2010? Zero. $4 million tax refund.

10. Time Warner CEO Glenn Britt
Amount of federal income taxes paid in 2008? Zero. $74 million tax refund.

11. Merck CEO Kenneth Frazier
Amount of federal income taxes paid in 2009? Zero. $55 million tax refund.

12. Deere & Company CEO Samuel Allen
Amount of federal income taxes paid in 2009? Zero. $1 million tax refund.

13. Marsh & McLennan Companies CEO Brian Duperreault Amount of federal income taxes paid in 2010? Zero. $90 million refund.

14. Qualcomm CEO Paul Jacobs
Amount of federal income taxes Qualcomm would have owed if offshore tax havens
were eliminated? $4.7 billion.

15. Tenneco CEO Gregg Sherill
Amount of federal income taxes Tenneco would have owed if offshore tax havens
were eliminated? $269 million.

16. Express Scripts CEO George Paz
Amount of federal income taxes Express Scripts would have owed if offshore tax
havens were eliminated? $20 million.

17. Caesars Entertainment CEO Gary Loveman
Amount of federal income taxes Caesars Entertainment would have owed if offshore
tax havens were eliminated? $9 million.

18. R.R. Donnelly & Sons CEO Thomas Quinlan III
Amount of federal income taxes paid in 2008? Zero. $49 million tax refund.

Source: Top Corporate Dodgers report

But instead of understanding any of my post you went to the corporate welfare statement. Jesus, man look past your nose.

[GravitySucks]

Oh ffs, GS.

General Electric has received more than $2.5 billion in direct loans and loan guarantees from the Ex-Im Bank.And what was the result?From 1975 to 1995 GE reduced its work force from 667,000 to 398,000, a decline of 269,000 jobs.

Research the Export-Import bank.
But instead of understanding any of my post you went to the corporate welfare statement. Jesus, man look past your nose.

Your post did not address the original topic of problems with homelessness and mental illness. I understood the numbers you presented. I didn't understand what you meant by corporate welfare.

I am not a fan of ExIm.

People throw around the term corporate welfare, and I never know where they are coming from or what they mean.