Art Bell

[ks3484]

Art, here's a guy who can back you up, or even do weekends for you. You see, it's very important to have someone who can talk about stuff off the top of their head.

[ks3484]

Ok guys here is some not such great news, we are going to have to cap the live listener number to between 65-70 thousand. The reason for this is easy, the stupid music. If we go over that it gets mind numbing expensive, I am not saying impossible but very expensive if we knock ourselves out of the small Webcaster catagory. So I guess it will be first come first served and we will not open the big bandwidth doors until 9PM P.T.

Now if somebody picked up our stream and sent it out from some far flung overseas place, well hmmm not much we could do about that, right?

We do want tight control of the Podcast, we are ready for volunteers, if you would like to help please contact Keith at kr@rowlandnet.com and help us with Podcast Pirates (mostly utube)

All of this may not be a problem anyway, I might be lucky to scare up 10,000 . We shall see

Art

Hey Art, have you looked at either one of these choices that help those who are starting new internet radio ventures?

*****radionomy*****

Produce Your Own Radio Station
Create, share, and build a successful online radio station at no cost

__________________________________

♦ You qualify for one of the low-cost ASCAP form licenses


♦ ASCAP Blanket License Agreement for WEBSITES & MOBILE APPLICATIONS

[MV/Liberace!]

MV, if I'm not mistaken, during a recent GabCast, you, ( I think it was you) quoted $37 monthly as bandwidth cost for GabCast, (am I recalling correctly?).
With 215 yes votes, that gives Art $ 1075 monthly, would he have bandwidth costs far greater than yours?

that's $37.50 for six months, or $6.25 per month  - 125 listener slots at 128Kbps.  if one were to stream at 32Kbps (whether aac+ or mp3), you'd be looking at 500 listener slots for that same price.  the more slots you buy, the cheaper the cost per slot.



here's some stuff for art to consider.

not everything will play aac+.  if you decide to go with that audio format, you're going to be plagued by support emails from people who can't listen to the live stream because they have no clue what they're doing and why "the stream won't play".  take a look at this:
http://goo.gl/IBselO

the mp3 codec is ubiquitous.  everything is capable of mp3 playback.  by streaming the live show in mp3 format, i believe you'll save yourselves a TON of "i can't hear the stream" emails, and you'll have a larger audience.

here are a couple examples of what modern mp3 compression technology is capable of.
this is a 32Kbps joint stereo mp3 (44Khz) encoded from an untouched .wav file:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/88sl2wq1merba9u/stereo.mp3?dl=0

sounds horrible, right? 

well here's the same thing encoded at 32Kbps mono (also sampled at 44Khz):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/lz53n4fymq4tqiw/mono.mp3?dl=0

by merging the two channels and eliminating all of that additional information, you effectively double the resolution of the audio for "free".  i think the mono example is totally acceptable in terms of quality for a talk show, and eliminating a stereo channel is no sacrifice since stereo is unnecessary for a talk show.  the human voice will sound even better than music at this bitrate, since voice requires far less dynamic range (information) than music.  in this example, i chose to encode music rather than voice for the purpose of really taxing the codec and showing the worst possible result.

and i again point out that we all found you on (mono) AM radio.  that's how we're used to hearing you.  even so, the 32Kbps mono example is still superior to AM radio.

you've got enough to worry about without spending time helping people connect to the stream.

[inuk2600]

you've got enough to worry about without spending time helping people connect to the stream.

There will be a "standard" 32Kbps stream in addition to the stereo aac+ stream.
I think you're right that the "standard" stream should be mono mp3.

[Daggit]

MV I get what you are saying about the sound of Talk but I think Art wants the music to pop.

[MV/Liberace!]

There will be a "standard" 32Kbps stream in addition to the stereo aac+ stream.

yeah, i know.  i just think aac+ is unnecessary and complicates things.  yeah, better audio quality, i get it... but overall i think it's going to be a headache.

[MV/Liberace!]

MV I get what you are saying about the sound of Talk but I think Art wants the music to pop.

and that's fine, but if you go with aac+ you'd better hire a staffer to handle the support emails from little old ladies in broken whistle, nebraska who don't hear anything when they click play.  the only way to avoid this is to provide an entirely packaged experience where the live stream doesn't touch any external player installed on the user's computer or phone.  instead, it would need to be handled entirely by a system that you control like a separate app with all of the aac+ playbaack guts built into it.  headache.

[Catsmile]

...
here's some stuff for art to consider.

not everything will play aac+.  if you decide to go with that audio format, you're going to be plagued by support emails from people who can't listen to the live stream because they have no clue what they're doing and why "the stream won't play".  take a look at this:
http://goo.gl/IBselO

the mp3 codec is ubiquitous.  everything is capable of mp3 playback.  by streaming the live show in mp3 format, i believe you'll save yourselves a TON of "i can't hear the stream" emails, and you'll have a larger audience.

here are a couple examples of what modern mp3 compression technology is capable of.
this is a 32Kbps joint stereo mp3 (44Khz) encoded from an untouched .wav file:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/88sl2wq1merba9u/stereo.mp3?dl=0

sounds horrible, right? 

well here's the same thing encoded at 32Kbps mono (also sampled at 44Khz):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/lz53n4fymq4tqiw/mono.mp3?dl=0

by merging the two channels and eliminating all of that additional information, you effectively double the resolution of the audio for "free".  i think the mono example is totally acceptable in terms of quality for a talk show, and eliminating a stereo channel is no sacrifice since stereo is unnecessary for a talk show.  the human voice will sound even better than music at this bitrate, since voice requires far less dynamic range (information) than music.  in this example, i chose to encode music rather than voice for the purpose of really taxing the codec and showing the worst possible result.

and i again point out that we all found you on (mono) AM radio.  that's how we're used to hearing you.  even so, the 32Kbps mono example is still superior to AM radio.

you've got enough to worry about without spending time helping people connect to the stream.

The way I read Art's post last night, he was looking at simulcasting his stream in AAC+, and MP3 both at 32Kb. Although I could be wrong. That would address a lot of the "problems" folks were proposing here a few days ago. 32Kb would ease the data usage, and bandwidth issue in both formats. 32Kb AAC+ solves quality issues over MP3, at the same bitrate. MP3 solves the compatibility issue. 32Kb MP3 in mono is a good idea, it will sound better than 32Kb MP3 stereo. 32Kb AAC+ gives good stereo, and one ups AM radio IMO. Wasn't SiriusXM streamed in AAC+ 64Kb stereo, or was it AAC+ 32Kb stereo, I forget?

No matter what Art does he can't solve the problem of computer illiterate people. We see people posting here all the time that pirate Art streams are down, only to find out it's a problem on their end. Now I'm preaching to the choir, you know this already. Thats why you make the big bucks in real life, helping the computer illiterate. Best thing Art can do is have Keith field all the tech support problems, using a help webpage, or a canned reply Art/Keith can paste into the inevitable e-mails.

Other streams offer simulcasting using different bitrates AND encoding schemes.
So.. it is doable.  You are right about AAC+, it is potentially opening a can of worms, especially without a MP3 option. Like I said before I didn't want to poke the bear about encoding schemes. I'd be happy with a 64/32Kb MP3 stereo/mono stream. If a group votes for free filet mignon, or free hamburger. The majority of the time most will vote for the hamburger!   It's hard to make everyone happy it seems.  :    YMMV

[ge30542]

Mr. Bell, I do  not understand all this audio talk, aac, 32bit, etc. Have 2 rates, $ 5 for a basic sound, maybe $ 7.99 fro the better quality audio, just a thought.
You've obviously thought all this through, but, and I speak ONLY for myself, 5 bucks a month is DIRT CHEAP in my mind. I'd gladly pay a bit more to hear your "golden tones" coming through my speakers.

[Daggit]

and that's fine, but if you go with aac+ you'd better hire a staffer to handle the support emails from little old ladies in broken whistle, nebraska who don't hear anything when they click play.

I'm sure Keith will be able to handle those in a polite, customer service focused way.

[wr250]

Mr. Bell, I do  not understand all this audio talk, aac, 32bit, etc. Have 2 rates, $ 5 for a basic sound, maybe $ 7.99 fro the better quality audio, just a thought.
You've obviously thought all this through, but, and I speak ONLY for myself, 5 bucks a month is DIRT CHEAP in my mind. I'd gladly pay a bit more to hear your "golden tones" coming through my speakers.

the free streaming service will be in both mp3 (which anything plays) and a superior aac+ for those who discriminate (it simply sounds better than mp3.). the podcast will most likely be in 128K stereo mp3 which for most is more than adequate for a podcast.

[albrecht]

The way I read Art's post last night, he was looking at simulcasting his stream in AAC+, and MP3 both at 32Kb. Although I could be wrong. That would address a lot of the "problems" folks were proposing here a few days ago. 32Kb would ease the data usage, and bandwidth issue in both formats. 32Kb AAC+ solves quality issues over MP3, at the same bitrate. MP3 solves the compatibility issue. 32Kb MP3 in mono is a good idea, it will sound better than 32Kb MP3 stereo. 32Kb AAC+ gives good stereo, and one ups AM radio IMO. Wasn't SiriusXM streamed in AAC+ 64Kb stereo, or was it AAC+ 32Kb stereo, I forget?

No matter what Art does he can't solve the problem of computer illiterate people. We see people posting here all the time that pirate Art streams are down, only to find out it's a problem on their end. Now I'm preaching to the choir, you know this already. Thats why you make the big bucks in real life, helping the computer illiterate. Best thing Art can do is have Keith field all the tech support problems, using a help webpage, or a canned reply Art/Keith can paste into the inevitable e-mails.

Other streams offer simulcasting using different bitrates AND encoding schemes.
So.. it is doable.  You are right about AAC+, it is potentially opening a can of worms, especially without a MP3 option. Like I said before I didn't want to poke the bear about encoding schemes. I'd be happy with a 64/32Kb MP3 stereo/mono stream. If a group votes for free filet mignon, or free hamburger. The majority of the time most will vote for the hamburger!   It's hard to make everyone happy it seems.  :    YMMV

CCrane should make a small, portable (and maybe a larger size also to put on your desk or in your garage) "Art Bell Edition" internet streaming player that would be pre-set to tune-in to the MITD show and work via WiFi, 4G-Lte, etc without the customer needing to monkey with it. Solves the problem of the old folks or technically illiterate having problems streaming the show, encoding, bidrates, etc. It could also, like the old Pogo he used to sell, automatically download the .mp3 podcast in case you can't listen live.

[Catsmile]

I'm sure Keith will be able to handle those in a polite, customer service focused way.

I so wanted to include that in my wall o' text... again... bear... poking. 

[ge30542]

CCrane should make a small, portable (and maybe a larger size also to put on your desk or in your garage) "Art Bell Edition" internet streaming player that would be pre-set to tune-in to the MITD show and work via WiFi, 4G-Lte, etc without the customer needing to monkey with it. Solves the problem of the old folks or technically illiterate having problems streaming the show, encoding, bidrates, etc. It could also, like the old Pogo he used to sell, automatically download the .mp3 podcast in case you can't listen live.

I'd buy one from C. Crane at $ 49.99. Have Bob get right on that.

[Catsmile]

CCrane should make a small, portable (and maybe a larger size also to put on your desk or in your garage) "Art Bell Edition" internet streaming player that would be pre-set to tune-in to the MITD show and work via WiFi, 4G-Lte, etc without the customer needing to monkey with it. Solves the problem of the old folks or technically illiterate having problems streaming the show, encoding, bidrates, etc. It could also, like the old Pogo he used to sell, automatically download the .mp3 podcast in case you can't listen live.

Dube, you need to take a page from Apple, on how to milk a product today. You sell a portable version, and also sell a larger proprietary "docking device" for the tabletop/desktop. That way if you want the non-portable you have to buy both products. Quadruple ur profits through lifestyle products 101!

[Morgus]

MV I get what you are saying about the sound of Talk but I think Art wants the music to pop.

I doubt most folks would notice the difference in higher quality music if they are only listening thru a small smartphone's single (mono) speaker.
Would need to use to be hooked up to a big hi-fi amplifier and big stereo speakers to really get good quality music, but that would only be for a minute or two per hour, since most of the show is just mono voices that don't need the higher bitrates.

How about variable bitrate MP3?
That could use higher bitrate during the relatively short bumper music periods, and would automatically drop the bitrate during the longer voice periods.
The average bitrate per hour streaming could be quite low that way, but still provide high quality stereo audio for the short bumper music periods.

[albrecht]

Dube, you need to take a page from Apple, on how to milk a product today. You sell a portable version, and also sell a larger proprietary "docking device" for the tabletop/desktop. That way if you want the non-portable you have to buy both products. Quadruple ur profits through lifestyle products 101!

and frequently change the input/charging socket design so that models aren't cross supported to each other and you need to buy new chargers, cords, and desktop devices.

[Morgus]

not everything will play aac+.  if you decide to go with that audio format, you're going to be plagued by support emails from people who can't listen to the live stream because they have no clue what they're doing and why "the stream won't play".  take a look at this:
http://goo.gl/IBselO

the mp3 codec is ubiquitous.  everything is capable of mp3 playback.  by streaming the live show in mp3 format, i believe you'll save yourselves a TON of "i can't hear the stream" emails, and you'll have a larger audience.

here are a couple examples of what modern mp3 compression technology is capable of.
this is a 32Kbps joint stereo mp3 (44Khz) encoded from an untouched .wav file:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/88sl2wq1merba9u/stereo.mp3?dl=0

sounds horrible, right? 

well here's the same thing encoded at 32Kbps mono (also sampled at 44Khz):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/lz53n4fymq4tqiw/mono.mp3?dl=0

by merging the two channels and eliminating all of that additional information, you effectively double the resolution of the audio for "free".  i think the mono example is totally acceptable in terms of quality for a talk show, and eliminating a stereo channel is no sacrifice since stereo is unnecessary for a talk show.  the human voice will sound even better than music at this bitrate, since voice requires far less dynamic range (information) than music.  in this example, i chose to encode music rather than voice for the purpose of really taxing the codec and showing the worst possible result.

and i again point out that we all found you on (mono) AM radio.  that's how we're used to hearing you.  even so, the 32Kbps mono example is still superior to AM radio.

you've got enough to worry about without spending time helping people connect to the stream.

yep - very important considerations.
Tunein at their website's help info mention their own browser (web) player does not support AAC format at all, only MP3, and I tried it and verified that.  AAC streams do work on my android smartphone on the Tunein app, but all those streams appear to have an alternate mp3 stream available as well probably for those compatability issues. So if you have to provide two 32Mbps streams in that case (AAC+ and mp3) why not instead just use a single higher bitrate mp3 stream for the same total bitrate?

Another possiblity would be to use dynamic variable bitrate mp3 thats compatable with everything, but could up the bitrate during the short bumper music periods and drop the bitrate for the longer mono voice periods, giving a smaller average streaming bitrate per hour.

[Morgus]

yeah, i know.  i just think aac+ is unnecessary and complicates things.  yeah, better audio quality, i get it... but overall i think it's going to be a headache.

yep, and its only better audio quality noticeable for maybe 1-2 minutes per hour for the bumper music, most of each hour will be mono voices only that wouldn't take advantage of higher bitrate or more efficient encoders.
I wonder how many of the listeners would be hooked up to an external hifi amplifier and big speakers, or high quality earphones, to really hear the difference in the music for 1-2 minutes per hour anyway?
I figure most would just listen on their tinny mono speaker in a small smartphone.

[Morgus]

the podcast will most likely be in 128K stereo mp3 which for most is more than adequate for a podcast.

since the podcasts won't have any bumper music, 128k stereo would be way overkill for mono talk only.
32k mono would be plenty for that and allow fast downloading.

[albrecht]

since the podcasts won't have any bumper music, 128k stereo would be way overkill for mono talk only.
32k mono would be plenty for that and allow fast downloading.

It reminds me of a hotel room. It is perceived that there is plenty of speed and bandwidth so might as well "use it", even if not necessary for the show or improves quality that much (since many/most will be listening with ear-buds or on their car 'radio'. Like when you stay in a hotel room you take longer showers and turn the A/C down to arctic levels but wouldn't to the same at home.

[Catsmile]

and frequently change the input/charging socket design so that models aren't cross supported to each other and you need to buy new chargers, cords, and desktop devices.

Yep... nobody said the Apple life was easy... or cheap. YO!

[inuk2600]

and that's fine, but if you go with aac+ you'd better hire a staffer to handle the support emails from little old ladies in broken whistle, nebraska who don't hear anything when they click play

LOL! She would call the show live to ask Art how to play it. Whistling through her dentures to be sure.
In my mind's eye she is also saying the word sarsaparilla.

[Delphi]

LOL! She would call the show live to ask Art how to play it. Whistling through her dentures to be sure.
In my mind's eye she is also saying the word sarsaparilla.

LOL! thank you, i needed that

[chefist]

yep - very important considerations.
Tunein at their website's help info mention their own browser (web) player does not support AAC format at all, only MP3, and I tried it and verified that.  AAC streams do work on my android smartphone on the Tunein app, but all those streams appear to have an alternate mp3 stream available as well probably for those compatability issues. So if you have to provide two 32Mbps streams in that case (AAC+ and mp3) why not instead just use a single higher bitrate mp3 stream for the same total bitrate?

Another possiblity would be to use dynamic variable bitrate mp3 thats compatable with everything, but could up the bitrate during the short bumper music periods and drop the bitrate for the longer mono voice periods, giving a smaller average streaming bitrate per hour.

I prefer the ACDC format...VERY LOUD but unintelligible! 

[PB the Deplorable]

there are metrics in place for sure, but i don't think there's any way for us to have an accurate idea of what the metrics say.  only keith and art and their hosting provider know that.

And the Shadow Government

[SixWeekTenure(tm)]

When the old ladies bombard the Wormhole with messages that their aac+ stream doesn't work, will Art give Keith an all or nothing ultimatum?

[laserjock]

The way I read Art's post last night, he was looking at simulcasting his stream in AAC+, and MP3 both at 32Kb. Although I could be wrong. That would address a lot of the "problems" folks were proposing here a few days ago. 32Kb would ease the data usage, and bandwidth issue in both formats. 32Kb AAC+ solves quality issues over MP3, at the same bitrate. MP3 solves the compatibility issue. 32Kb MP3 in mono is a good idea, it will sound better than 32Kb MP3 stereo. 32Kb AAC+ gives good stereo, and one ups AM radio IMO. Wasn't SiriusXM streamed in AAC+ 64Kb stereo, or was it AAC+ 32Kb stereo, I forget?

No matter what Art does he can't solve the problem of computer illiterate people. We see people posting here all the time that pirate Art streams are down, only to find out it's a problem on their end. Now I'm preaching to the choir, you know this already. Thats why you make the big bucks in real life, helping the computer illiterate. Best thing Art can do is have Keith field all the tech support problems, using a help webpage, or a canned reply Art/Keith can paste into the inevitable e-mails.

Other streams offer simulcasting using different bitrates AND encoding schemes.
So.. it is doable.  You are right about AAC+, it is potentially opening a can of worms, especially without a MP3 option. Like I said before I didn't want to poke the bear about encoding schemes. I'd be happy with a 64/32Kb MP3 stereo/mono stream. If a group votes for free filet mignon, or free hamburger. The majority of the time most will vote for the hamburger!   It's hard to make everyone happy it seems.  :    YMMV

If that comment is in reference to ME and my having problems with the various Art Bell casts, I am NOT a computer idiot, I resent your assertion.  I've been using the internet long before the Web existed, I build my own systems, repair other people's systems for free as a hobby, and even have done some coding.

There is some less obvious reason for the problems, and I know about downloading and installing stuff like w32codecs, sir.  I suspect IP blocking or something else, because the dark matter network works (with just the exception of one time the other day).  I have more than one computer to test on from this IP, and yes, it's true, I don't have the budget to do much, but recently built a fresh Devil's Canyon Build, it took my tax refund to do it.  My 2 and a half year old laptop has the same problem, sometimes the streams don't work, or won't work in firefox (and yes, I do run noscript, but I can, of course, disable it)...

I daresay there's even a chance I know more about what I am doing than you do, so stop making assumptions.

[cweb]

yep, and its only better audio quality noticeable for maybe 1-2 minutes per hour for the bumper music, most of each hour will be mono voices only that wouldn't take advantage of higher bitrate or more efficient encoders.
I wonder how many of the listeners would be hooked up to an external hifi amplifier and big speakers, or high quality earphones, to really hear the difference in the music for 1-2 minutes per hour anyway?
I figure most would just listen on their tinny mono speaker in a small smartphone.

Totally agree that mp3 is the way to go. I "transcode" the occasional Knapp show to 64kbps mono mp3, and it sounds just fine (for me) on my stereo.

I understand the desire to try a new cool development in streaming, plus the desire for quality audio. But the goals here are seemingly compatibility and practicality, which mp3 provides in spades. At least for now.

Like they always say, keep it simple.

[laserjock]

I doubt most folks would notice the difference in higher quality music if they are only listening thru a small smartphone's single (mono) speaker.
Would need to use to be hooked up to a big hi-fi amplifier and big stereo speakers to really get good quality music, but that would only be for a minute or two per hour, since most of the show is just mono voices that don't need the higher bitrates.

How about variable bitrate MP3?
That could use higher bitrate during the relatively short bumper music periods, and would automatically drop the bitrate during the longer voice periods.
The average bitrate per hour streaming could be quite low that way, but still provide high quality stereo audio for the short bumper music periods.

There's more to it than just bitrate, the various codecs cut out things like human inaudible stuff using different schemes.  AAC+ is Apple's Codec thing.  Personally, I prefer FLAC for my audio rippings (a lossless codec), it takes up a bit more hard drive space, but converting then to other formats involves a LITTLE less loss in the conversion.  Of course, I used to run Linux on most of my systems before UEFI BIOS involved Microsoft's Secure Boot implementations, yes, I could still dual boot, but I'd have to disable secure boot (or get ahold of a secure boot friendly OS, erm, uhh...) and there is a benefit with Secure Boot (I had a virus over 10 years ago that corrupted my BIOS and had to swap the CMOS out, yes, there are such viruses).