Random Political Thoughts

[onan]

The healthcare bill, some of which is already in place and more to be implemented isn't government take over.

I believe some here will doubt the veracity of Politifact.com or factcheck.com, however they are unbiased in their research and reporting. They have this to say:

"Government takeover" conjures a European approach where the government owns the hospitals and the doctors are public employees. But the law Congress passed, parts of which have already gone into effect, relies largely on the free market:

• Employers will continue to provide health insurance to the majority of Americans through private insurance companies.

• Contrary to the claim, more people will get private health coverage. The law sets up "exchanges" where private insurers will compete to provide coverage to people who don't have it.

• The government will not seize control of hospitals or nationalize doctors.

• The law does not include the public option, a government-run insurance plan that would have competed with private insurers.

• The law gives tax credits to people who have difficulty affording insurance, so they can buy their coverage from private providers on the exchange. But here too, the approach relies on a free market with regulations, not socialized medicine.

PolitiFact reporters have studied the 906-page bill and interviewed independent health care experts. We have concluded it is inaccurate to call the plan a government takeover because it relies largely on the existing system of health coverage provided by employers.

It's true that the law does significantly increase government regulation of health insurers. But it is, at its heart, a system that relies on private companies and the free market.

Republicans who maintain the Democratic plan is a government takeover say that characterization is justified because the plan increases federal regulation and will require Americans to buy health insurance.

But while those provisions are real, the majority of Americans will continue to get coverage from private insurers. And it will bring new business for the insurance industry: People who don"t currently have coverage will get it, for the most part, from private insurance companies.

Consider some analogies about strict government regulation. The Federal Aviation Administration imposes detailed rules on airlines. State laws require drivers to have car insurance. Regulators tell electric utilities what they can charge. Yet that heavy regulation is not described as a government takeover.

Most of the posts on this topic seem to be formed from the pandering of talking heads.

Bleh.

[BobGrau]

Third attempt at posting on this subject - this thread is on FIRE!

I have never been able to find out any details about 'obamacare'. Everything I read about it in the press descends into the usual left v right bullshit - big surprise there.

I can boil my views on this subject down to one sentence: the principle is sound, but everyone is corrupt.

[someguy]

Third attempt at posting on this subject - this thread is on FIRE!

I have never been able to find out any details about 'obamacare'. Everything I read about it in the press descends into the usual left v right bullshit - big surprise there.

I can boil my views on this subject down to one sentence: the principle is sound, but everyone is corrupt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patient_Protection_and_Affordable_Care_Act

[Juan]

The latest from a law professor is that the dissenting opinion reads like a majority opinion.  Did Obama get to Roberts and make him switch his vote?  Where is Jim Marrs on this?  Or Quayle.  Maybe "No Shame" can remote view the meeting.

[BobGrau]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patient_Protection_and_Affordable_Care_Act

Thanks for the link, strange-skull-faced-slightly-trolly-man.

From the quick scan I just gave it, it looks like rather than guaranteeing that anyone who turns up to a hospital will be treated (which is what 'free healthcare' means), it appears that every US citizen is now required by law to pay for health insurance, one way or another.
Would that be accurate? Discuss.

[Zircon]

Necromancy is covered in UHC


Also: http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/06/28/supreme-court-health-care-move-to-canada_n_1634157.html


Americans, you so silly

I guess when UHC comes to pass, more and more skulls will be the norm.

[Zircon]

Thanks for the link, strange-skull-faced-slightly-trolly-man.

From the quick scan I just gave it, it looks like rather than guaranteeing that anyone who turns up to a hospital will be treated (which is what 'free healthcare' means), it appears that every US citizen is now required by law to pay for health insurance, one way or another.
Would that be accurate? Discuss.

Penalties early on for those who choose not to go with the government and they currently have insurance. As insurance companies die on the vine with fewer and fewer employers willing to fork over premiums for employees, the fees will go up for the increasingly uninsured until the government is the only show in town. Of course, elites will have their own "private" medical much like the exclusions congress applies to itself and several favored unions and even voting districts (Pelosi's for example) will enjoy.

[someguy]

From the quick scan I just gave it, it looks like rather than guaranteeing that anyone who turns up to a hospital will be treated (which is what 'free healthcare' means), it appears that every US citizen is now required by law to pay for health insurance, one way or another.
Would that be accurate? Discuss.

That's pretty much it. It'll be subsidized for low income people, and you can't be denied coverage because you have a pre-existing condition.

[BobGrau]

Fuck insurance companys.

[Ben Shockley]

This is a great manifestation of what we might term "propaganda lag."  The slow-witted right-wing citizenry can't process much reality, and so are stuck back at the initial phase of insurance-industry-paid propaganda, from '09-'10.   The insurance industry was afraid for a while that this might cost them a few billion, so they scared and mobilized all the senescents to get out there with their "keep your gov't hands off my Medicare signs" and all that.   Some of the stuff you're reading in here is the younger end of that.
Now even assuming that the insurance industry essentially dropped it's propaganda once it became clear that the current "health care" legislation was an absolute windfall benefit to the insurance companies, socio-cultural-legislative inertia had taken over, and the mobilized right-wing masses were locked into "opposition mode" come hell or high water.   They've never been known to much care about their own best interests; they're great servants to the economic elites.

[Zircon]

Fuck insurance companys.

I agree that insurance companies are charging more and more but lawyers are suing for more and more. How much do you think an American physician pays in insurance per year? How many people are suing for malpractice? Now some of those are legitimate so don't misunderstand me. But the lawyers are making out like bandits. Why do you think doctors spend less time with a patient per office visit? They need to get more and more people in there to cover costs.

How does it work in England? How many folks die from prostate cancer over there vs. here in the USA where if caught early enough it is taken care of quickly. How about major surgery? How many wait for operations and die while waiting?

We have a problem here in the USA with millions of Mexicans draining our hospitals of their resources and finances per federal edict. The fed doesn't pay them back. Look at California. Also, our gangstas shoot and stab each other minute by minute. They get free health care as well. The taxpayer foots the bill.

So what do you propose Bob, the UK model? Do you actually think medical care is free? Are you a moron? I think you're model is fucking bullshit.

[MV/Liberace!]

Sucks you americans don't have universal health care. Have fun with that. Hope you crazy people don't have any pre-existing conditions.

Oh, Obamacare went through? Good job America! Some decent news for once.

obamacare is not universal health care.  it is a mandate that americans purchase health insurance or pay a fine for not doing so.  also, it initiates the hiring of thousands of additional IRS agents.   yeah.  decent news. 


gag.

[someguy]

obamacare is not universal health care.  it is a mandate that americans purchase health insurance or pay a fine for not doing so.  also, it initiates the hiring of thousands of additional IRS agents.   yeah.  decent news. 


gag.

Never said it was. But it's a step in the right direction.

[Zircon]

The healthcare bill, some of which is already in place and more to be implemented isn't government take over.

I believe some here will doubt the veracity of Politifact.com or factcheck.com, however they are unbiased in their research and reporting. They have this to say:



Most of the posts on this topic seem to be formed from the pandering of talking heads.

Bleh.

Employers will eventually drop private insurance and the employee will have to purchase his or her own. "Competition"? The government hates competition. Wait and see Onan. All of that wonderful analysis looks good in writing. Lets see what happens. This administration is anti-capitalist. Insurers and employers are capitalists.

[Frys Girl]

My understanding is that 30 million more people will be forced to buy health care. I understand that there are lots of people who get care, their insurances deny payment for services rendered, and then end up not footing the bills themselves. If the increased insurance purchases will result in more coverage (financial) by the insurance companies, then that will be good.


If a SBO has more than 50 employees, he or she automatically has to buy insurance for those people if they are all full time? or part time? I'm not sure what is true anymore.


I do know that the health insurance companies did help write this bill. I think if those people with pre-conditions could not get insurance coverage (not just insurance policies! but care that will be reimbursed) can get coverage now, then great. I'm not sure if that's bad.


I guess what worries me about this is 1. There are so many mistruths (both sides) 2. That the government needed to be involved at all is too bad 3. I don't know if repealing this bill will help much either. Health care in america is completely screwed up.

[Frys Girl]

obamacare is not universal health care.  it is a mandate that americans purchase health insurance or pay a fine for not doing so.  also, it initiates the hiring of thousands of additional IRS agents.   yeah.  decent news. 


gag.

Oh my gosh. I did not even realize this aspect of the bill. Now that it is law as tax, we will have to report it in our taxes every year? This is going to be messy as hell.

[someguy]

If you're against the government being involved, how do you feel about fire departments, police departments, and the fact the government is involved in power companies? Also what about the fact that the US military uses UHC?

[MV/Liberace!]

If you're against the government being involved, how do you feel about fire departments, police departments, and the fact the government is involved in power companies? Also what about the fact that the US military uses UHC?

actually, i'm not entirely against socialized medicine.  despite what the propaganda here in the states would have you believe, the french and british seem quite happy with their systems.  i just don't want people to be forced to participate if they choose not to.  i also don't want those who have private insurance to be affected or penalized in any way for their refusal to participate.  the problem in the usa is that our government spends so much money in so many other areas (defense and other useless social programs come to mind first) that we couldn't afford a universal health care system even if we wanted it.

[Ben Shockley]

If you're against the government being involved, how do you feel about fire departments, police departments, and the fact the government is involved in power companies? Also what about the fact that the US military uses UHC?

That is a beautiful point, someguy.   The right-wing politicians who are so anti- "Obamacare" are also ostensibly SO SO pro- military.  Well, surely, they should have long ago been pushing to get the military folks onto the wonderful world of you're-on-your-own insurance shopping.   Right?  That they either haven't or have been preemptively stopped if they tried says a lot about what these loons know versus what they fulminate (i.e., demagogue about) for their rabid base.
The lunatics out demonstrating in the streets against "Obamacare" probably have no idea how health services in the military are run-- just like they think that every person should have an ancient vellum original birth certificate safely pressed inside (say it with me!) the "family Bible."

[MV/Liberace!]

...just like they think that every person should have an ancient vellum original birth certificate safely pressed inside (say it with me!) the "family Bible."

what, you got some problem with the family bible?


commie.

[someguy]

That is a beautiful point, someguy.   The right-wing politicians who are so anti- "Obamacare" are also ostensibly SO SO pro- military.  Well, surely, they should have long ago been pushing to get the military folks onto the wonderful world of you're-on-your-own insurance shopping.   Right?  That they either haven't or have been preemptively stopped if they tried says a lot about what these loons know versus what they fulminate (i.e., demagogue about) for their rabid base.
The lunatics out demonstrating in the streets against "Obamacare" probably have no idea how health services in the military are run-- just like they think that every person should have an ancient vellum original birth certificate safely pressed inside (say it with me!) the "family Bible."

It's really weird and a bit sad. People talk about the free market and everything, but it's not like you can go to the hospital down the street to get a better deal on that $200,000 brain tumor operation. People have to actively refuse to get their injuries treated because it's so expensive. It's absolutely absurd.

[MV/Liberace!]

...it's not like you can go to the hospital down the street to get a better deal on that $200,000 brain tumor operation. People have to actively refuse to get their injuries treated because it's so expensive. It's absolutely absurd.

you'll get no disagreement here.  it's just that i don't think obama's solution is the right one.  we listened for TWO YEARS to this guy telling us what a bunch of cunts the insurance companies are... and now he's forcing the poorest among us to become their customers or pay a fine?  really?  and his supporters (the people who cheered as he railed against the insurance industry) are on board with this too?

[PB the Deplorable]

... This economy is so totally screwed right now that to think some Knight in shining armor (a.k.a. Romney) is going to save the Kingdom is ludicrous. He is telling the people what they want to hear just like Obama is telling his people what they want to hear.

Notice that nobody is offering itemized solutions - just telling you what a jerk the other guy is? Why? There are none that will satisfy the immediate needs voters anticipate...

The problem is debt, students and families are in debt, large and small businesses are in debt, cities, states, and the federal government are in debt, nearly all countries are in debt, Social Security, Medicare, corporate and - especially - government pensions have overwhelming future obligations.  In most cases this debt is so huge it can never be repaid, at some point not even rolled over.  Even if  some of these institutions bucked up and tried to pay some of it down, it wouldn't make a dent.

When the economy cooled a little, the subprime loans was just the debt that showed itself to be unpayable first, it was probably the weakest of it, corruptly securitized and relying on skyrocketing home price trends well out into the fuure (the corruption surrounding the subprime stuff absolutely froze the banking system and money markets, with no one wanting to buy any debt based secrities until they knew what they were buying).  Next up, the weakest Eurozone economies.  The next four years, whoever is president, will be spent focusing on US Govt debt - the states, counties, cities, water, fire, school districts and all the rest, it's going to be really bad. 

Instead of working on this, Obama spent 3 years we can't get back shoving through his health care disaster that no one wanted, campaigning, partying, playing golf...

[MV/Liberace!]

When the economy cooled a little, the subprime loans was just the debt that showed itself to be unpayable first, it was probably the weakest of it, corruptly securitized and relying on skyrocketing home price trends well out into the fuure (the corruption surrounding the subprime stuff absolutely froze the banking system and money markets, with no one wanting to buy any debt based secrities until they knew what they were buying).  Next up, the weakest Eurozone economies.  The next four years, whoever is president, will be spent focusing on US Govt debt - the states, counties, cities, water, fire, school districts and all the rest, it's going to be really bad. 

a brilliant post.  +1

[Camazotz Automat]

 It is a dark day.

Lady Liberty was placed into a heavy-duty body bag and beaten into oblivion by a murder of robed crows who claim to speak for all, as well as for Liberty Herself.

Their cowardly baseball bats came away with no evidential blood and it was deemed "good."

Only a country full of retards would believe forced health insurance stacked against hemorrhaging health care costs addresses or equates to any semblance of a long term universal health care SOLUTION. Only a dip shit idiot would think this somehow implies "health care reform" itself has occurred or that it ever will.  Parrots speak of pre-existing conditions being accepted while ignoring the fact that health insurance coverage does not guarantee treatment of any kind.  Physicians can and do limit the amount of patients they treat.  Insurance companies do DENY treatments THEY deem too expensive or experimental, etc, even if the physician RECOMMENDS the denied treatment. This reality will only sharpen as "hordes descend."


"But.... but I have health insurance," he said, bleeding out of his ass under the street lamp made in China.

Fucking morons.

Insurance companies/lobbyists/attorneys are laughing all the way to the White House Fountain of Plenty.


At this point, you are aware that voting is meaningless.  Better to buy a ticket to some small sideshow carnival and learn of your world through metaphor...

"Highest Court in the land."

Laughable.

Pitiful, really, because if that's the best you've got, I would hate to see the ineptitude of lower versions. The cowardice must be cyclopean in lesser courts. Your SCOTUS seems more in line with a corrupt, incestuous, circle jerk of attorneys with the diseased brains of a tribe of hopeless syphilitics than with any considerate governing body. And they "speak" for you?


Sell outs.

Whores.

You do it to your own kind.

I present the ever tightening garrote of Liberty's supple neck as sideshow metaphor #1.

Step right up! And to honor our ineffable court, Free cotton candy to the first nine candy asses who dare come forward into this dark, inevitable tent.

Who needs Lady Liberty when you have a stomach full of sugar?

I ask you.

(tightening)


[attachimg=1]

[MV/Liberace!]

"But.... but I have health insurance," he said, bleeding out of his ass under the street lamp made in China.

haaaaaahaha, awesome.

[Ben Shockley]

what, you got some problem with the family bible?
commie.

No, just my subtle shot at "birthers" who, because THEY'VE never done anything that required submitting an original birth certificate (which are never returned), they immediately suspect anyone who doesn't have a blood- and amniotic-fluid-stained original.   More proof that "birthers" are parochial know-nothings with not a lot of experience in much of anything -- of, for example, going in the military (which they supposedly worship), or getting a security clearance in said deified military, or applying for a passport (big surprise there, huh?)
The only "original" I could submit for anything now would be just like Pres. Obama's: a new version generated on request and notary-stamped by the state.   But tell that to a "birther."

[MV/Liberace!]

No, just my subtle shot at "birthers" who, because THEY'VE never done anything that required submitting an original birth certificate (which are never returned), they immediately suspect anyone who doesn't have a blood- and amniotic-fluid-stained original.

i've kept the placenta from my birth in a jar which is complete with a stamp of approval from the secretary of state where i was born.  anyone who doesn't keep their placenta in a jar with said stamp is just silly.

[someguy]

i've kept the placenta from my birth in a jar which is complete with a stamp of approval from the secretary of state where i was born.  anyone who doesn't keep their placenta in a jar with said stamp is just silly.

Dude don't you know the government and Majestic 12 have thousands of filing cabinets full of DNA samples hidden in an abandoned mine? I mean come on. You're just wasting valuable freezer space.

[analog kid]

No, just my subtle shot at "birthers" who, because THEY'VE never done anything that required submitting an original birth certificate (which are never returned), they immediately suspect anyone who doesn't have a blood- and amniotic-fluid-stained original.   More proof that "birthers" are parochial know-nothings with not a lot of experience in much of anything -- of, for example, going in the military (which they supposedly worship), or getting a security clearance in said deified military, or applying for a passport (big surprise there, huh?)
The only "original" I could submit for anything now would be just like Pres. Obama's: a new version generated on request and notary-stamped by the state.   But tell that to a "birther."

They also think that, if Larry the Cable Guy doesn't have access to someone else's personal information, or can't walk into Harvard and get a look at Obama's records, it's a sign of a conspiracy.