President Donald J. Trump

[Lt.Uhura]

I never said it was completely free. I said it was free at the point of need. Any need, whether you were born with it, developed it, or it returned. No conditions based on wealth.

File "free" under the list of clichéd buzzwords used in every defense of Trump and the GOP. Along with "Hillary", "Obama", "Fake News", "entitlement" and others. Speaking of "entitlements", that's exactly what the Repubs prefer to call the money I've paid in to Social Security since I was 17 yrs old. Why isn't "entitled" used to describe corporate welfare and big bank bailouts? Repubulican puppets would rather save the word to describe the poor working stiff making minimum wage who wants to visit the doctor when he's sick.

[Dr. MD MD]

File "free" under the list of clichéd buzzwords used in every defense of Trump and the GOP. Along with "Hillary", "Obama", "Fake News", "entitlement" and others. Speaking of "entitlements", that's exactly what the Repubs prefer to call the money I've paid in to Social Security since I was 17 yrs old. Why isn't "entitled" used to describe corporate welfare and big bank bailouts? Repubulican puppets would rather save the word to describe the poor working stiff making minimum wage who wants to visit the doctor when he's sick.

While I agree with a lot of the sentiment in your post try to remember that it was Obama who bailed out the too big to fail banks. Fucking ideologues!  :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3R6O-AdvzTM&t=5s

[GravitySucks]

I think that ultimately we will have universal health care in this country regardless of the political party in power. The reason is that it just makes the most economic sense and that should certainly appeal to conservatives. The concerns of a universal health care system are, to me, not economic ones but social ones. Once there is universal health care system will wait times for procedures become unreasonable? Once there is a universal health care system will unreasonable demands be made on citizens to comply with it? e.g., If you want access to the system then you MUST have a DNA screening test first. Oh, and we'd like to insert this little chip into all citizens that will help monitor your health. 

These are the more serious questions, the answers of which will truly and profoundly change our society.

Our economy evolved over time. Wages, benefits, and eventually prices have been established based on conditions established over time. Health insurance became a huge recruitment tool for companies.

It gets very complex when you try to rip out a health insurance as a benefit, and make it an entitlement. What happens to wages and prices once a company no longer provides health care? What happens to investors that have held stock in insurance companies. These aren't just institutional investors. These are people with 401ks and IRAs and nearly ever state, county and city pension fund.

You can't just rip up the playing field and pave it over with asphalt without a lot of skinned knees.

Something that worked in 1948 for the UK is much more complex when it comes to a country and economy the size of the US. Does it work in Canada?  Kind of. Not so much if you smoke or are overweight. Doctors can refuse to accept you if you don't make progress on a smoking cessation or weight loss plan. Is that humane?

I, for one, want less government control of my life, not more.

[Yorkshire pud]

Let us consider a barter system. I need to get my car repaired and my neighbor helps me drop my car off and drives me home. I in turn, make a meal for him and his wife. Does this barter not cost us anything? Bartering does not equal 'free' and it only works if you can provide what someone else wants.

You hurt your ankle and need an X-ray to determine if it's sprained or broken. In your proposed barter system, what kind of deal do you strike with your local radiologist? Mow his lawn, wax his car, provide goats or chickens? If he already has enough goats and chickens, has a mowed lawn, and waxed car from yesterday's patients- what then? What unique services do you have to offer?

All sorts of useful information is available to us via the internet. Even though you don't have to put a quarter in a slot- it's not free. We always have to pay for what we access- through fees, utility bills, your computer, transportation, your source of internet connection, - and on and on.  What about school and property taxes- they pay for the local educational systems, the municipal services, and medicaid. Once education is 'free' how does that affect our tax rates?

You're more than happy for insurance companies to effectively decide who and what can be treated based on their monetary and selfish needs, rather than medical need?

The government is bad because they hold sway, but insurance companies aren't bad for doing the same? The elephant in the room isn't the feds: the large grey animal is the spiralling costs borne from overpriced meds, used by hospitals that need money, paid in part by insurance companies, fed, and patients who are hostage. Pay or suffer. 

[Dr. MD MD]

Our economy evolved over time. Wages, benefits, and eventually prices have been established based on conditions established over time. Health insurance became a huge recruitment tool for companies.

It gets very complex when you try to rip out a health insurance as a benefit, and make it an entitlement. What happens to wages and prices once a company no longer provides health care? What happens to investors that have held stock in insurance companies. These aren't just institutional investors. These are people with 401ks and IRAs and nearly ever state, county and city pension fund.

You can't just rip up the playing field and pave it over with asphalt without a lot of skinned knees.

Something that worked in 1948 for the UK is much more complex when it comes to a country and economy the size of the US. Does it work in Canada?  Kind of. Not so much if you smoke or are overweight. Doctors can refuse to accept you if you don't make progress on a smoking cessation or weight loss plan. Is that humane?

I, for one, want less government control of my life, not more.

What happened to people who used to make horseshoes? They either found new work or were so good at it that they were able to keep making shoes for the few remaining people who still ride horses. I agree with most of the rest of your statement but industry saving can't be a valid reason to stop progress. The insurance industry will have to adapt like the rest of are constantly required to. 

[GravitySucks]

While I agree with a lot of the sentiment in your post try to remember that it was Obama who bailed out the too big to fail banks. Fucking ideologues!  :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3R6O-AdvzTM&t=5s

There are a lot of things I pin on Obama, but TARP and the bailouts began under Bush.

[GravitySucks]

What happened to people who used to make horseshoes? They either found new work or were so good at it that they were able to keep making shoes for the few remaining people who still ride horses. I agree with most of the rest of your statement but industry saving can't be a valid reason to stop progress. The insurance industry will have to adapt like the rest of are constantly required to. 

There are still people making horseshoes. They weren't legislated out of existence with the stroke of a pen.

The free market evolved and blacksmiths had time to become metal workers.

And horseshoes were a vital part of our economy, but not 20-30%.

[Yorkshire pud]

Our economy evolved over time. Wages, benefits, and eventually prices have been established based on conditions established over time. Health insurance became a huge recruitment tool for companies.

It gets very complex when you try to rip out a health insurance as a benefit, and make it an entitlement. What happens to wages and prices once a company no longer provides health care? What happens to investors that have held stock in insurance companies. These aren't just institutional investors. These are people with 401ks and IRAs and nearly ever state, county and city pension fund.

You can't just rip up the playing field and pave it over with asphalt without a lot of skinned knees.

Something that worked in 1948 for the UK is much more complex when it comes to a country and economy the size of the US. Does it work in Canada?  Kind of. Not so much if you smoke or are overweight. Doctors can refuse to accept you if you don't make progress on a smoking cessation or weight loss plan. Is that humane?

I, for one, want less government control of my life, not more.

Instead, insurance companies control your life. They can change the parameters and conditions en masse and you can't do a thing other than comply.

The USA pays more per capita for its health care and has for years, than any other developed country, but far from being demonstrably better for it, is eleven out of the top eleven

[GravitySucks]

Instead, insurance companies control your life. They can change the parameters and conditions en masse and you can't do a thing other than comply.

The USA pays more per capita for its health care and has for years, than any other developed country, but far from being demonstrably better for it, is eleven out of the top eleven

The difference is that before Obamacare you had the choice to shop around for a plan that fit your needs and budget.

Obamacare drove the costs higher, it didn't make things more cost-effective.

But that was the goal. Bankrupt the system to force single payer.

[Kolchak]

I'm trying to goad myself into accepting this piece of crap that passed the House but I'm not happy about it.  I agree with you.  Full repeal.  I'm really pissed off that the Drudge Report is touting this as a repeal.

[Dr. MD MD]

There are a lot of things I pin on Obama, but TARP and the bailouts began under Bush.

Yeah, the point I was trying t make is that both parties wanted it because they both work for the same people, the banks and not us. This is why Trump was the only way to break out of that cycle and now all these stupid assholes are trying to take him down and go back to the way it was.  Yeah, they really want hope and change. :

[Lt.Uhura]

I don't see anyone advocating for widespread "free" healthcare (other than for veterans or the disabled). Even healthcare for the elderly isn't free as they paid for Medicare via taxes, and still pay about $135/mo. And since Medicare doesn't cover all expenses including medications, they have to purchase supplemental plans which certainly aren't "free".

A sliding scale/tiered fee based on ones ability to pay would be the best option to provide healthcare for all Americans. A universal plan would be cheaper than the the resulting costs of leaving millions of Americans without healthcare.

[Dr. MD MD]

There are still people making horseshoes. They weren't legislated out of existence with the stroke of a pen.

The free market evolved and blacksmiths had time to become metal workers.

And horseshoes were a vital part of our economy, but not 20-30%.

Well, then maybe something like that has to be allowed to happen for the insurance industry rather than artificially keeping it going through legislation and backroom political deals. 

[Yorkshire pud]

The difference is that before Obamacare you had the choice to shop around for a plan that fit your needs and budget.

Obamacare drove the costs higher, it didn't make things more cost-effective.

But that was the goal. Bankrupt the system to force single payer.

It was also changed ad nauseum from conception until its breach birth. Even Obama says it needs changing, but instead of keeping the good bits, scrapping the bad, and modifying the rest, the 'Repeal and replace' advocates want to throw the baby out with the bathwater just to finance tax cuts for the top 2%. Who, coincidentally have say in financing their re-elections.

[pyewacket]

You're more than happy for insurance companies to effectively decide who and what can be treated based on their monetary and selfish needs, rather than medical need?

The government is bad because they hold sway, but insurance companies aren't bad for doing the same? The elephant in the room isn't the feds: the large grey animal is the spiralling costs borne from overpriced meds, used by hospitals that need money, paid in part by insurance companies, fed, and patients who are hostage. Pay or suffer.

I thought we were talking about the barter system. I wanted to hear what you had to say about that. I wanted to know the going rate of trade for a knee operation.

I never said that people should be denied treatment.

I do know plenty of people who never once stopped to think about health care and don't think that it's their responsibility to plan for their future needs. If people rely solely on the government, they may end up disappointed in the level of care that is possible for them.

[GravitySucks]

Well, then maybe something like that has to be allowed to happen for the insurance industry rather than artificially keeping it going through legislation and backroom political deals. 

Before Obamacare it was going without legislation and back room deals. That is why I am for a complete repeal.

If you want government control, let's outlaw tobacco and alcohol. Those are two industries that could be legislated out of existence with a stroke of a pen and cause health care costs to go way down.

[Dr. MD MD]

Before Obamacare it was going without legislation and back room deals. That is why I am for a complete repeal.

If you want government control, let's outlaw tobacco and alcohol. Those are two industries that could be legislated out of existence with a stroke of a pen and cause health care costs to go way down.

So, before Obama the healthcare system was working perfectly for everyone?! 

[GravitySucks]

I don't see anyone advocating for widespread "free" healthcare (other than for veterans or the disabled). Even healthcare for the elderly isn't free as they paid for Medicare via taxes, and still pay about $135/mo. And since Medicare doesn't cover all expenses including medications, they have to purchase supplemental plans which certainly aren't "free".

A sliding scale/tiered fee based on ones ability to pay would be the best option to provide healthcare for all Americans. A universal plan would be cheaper than the the resulting costs of leaving millions of Americans without healthcare.

The government promised me free health care through the VA for my 8 years in service. Now there is a means test for access to the VA. If you do not have a service connected disability, then you basically have to be an indigent to have access to VA medical services.

Be careful when the government promises you something.

[GravitySucks]

So, before Obama the healthcare system was working perfectly for everyone?! 

Yes. It was a paradise. A real heaven on earth.

[Dr. MD MD]

Yes. It was a paradise. A real heaven on earth.

OK, so you either work in the insurance industry or are closely related to someone who is. 

[GravitySucks]

OK, so you either work in the insurance industry or are closely related to someone who is. 

Neither. Just not going to argue absolutes.

I think Obamacare should be repealed <End of transmission>

[Dr. MD MD]

Neither. Just not going to argue absolutes.

I think Obamacare should be repealed <End of transmission>

But you are being an absolutist and aren't explaining yourself. Does not compute. Irrational.

[GravitySucks]

New British dental plan. Eat your boogers.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2017/05/05/eating-bogies-good-teeth-overall-health-scientists-conclude/

[Gd5150]

New British dental plan. Eat your boogers.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2017/05/05/eating-bogies-good-teeth-overall-health-scientists-conclude/

As opposed to the current British dental plan listed below.






















-

[21st Century Man]

New British dental plan. Eat your boogers.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2017/05/05/eating-bogies-good-teeth-overall-health-scientists-conclude/

Jolly good!!!

[Jackstar]

But you are being an absolutist and aren't explaining yourself. Does not compute. Irrational.

Some prototypes are not for much larger systems than to simply mess with you.

[Kidnostad3]

New British dental plan. Eat your boogers.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2017/05/05/eating-bogies-good-teeth-overall-health-scientists-conclude/

That fucking does it!  Not another dime of my tax money goes to research grants.  Next they'll be  experimenting with poop eating dogs and where will that lead?  I shudder to think. 

[GravitySucks]

That fucking does it!  Not another dime of my tax money goes to research grants.  Next they'll be  experimenting with poop eating dogs and where will that lead?  I shudder to think.

Poop transplants.

http://thefecaltransplantfoundation.org/what-is-fecal-transplant/

[Yorkshire pud]

I thought we were talking about the barter system. I wanted to hear what you had to say about that. I wanted to know the going rate of trade for a knee operation.

A barter system is just that. The knee operation is worth what can be got for it. A goat? Two goats and a leg of lamb?

I never said that people should be denied treatment.

No not you, but there are those who really think that anyone not being able to afford healthcare should be left to their own devices. My only sympathy with that view would be people sitting in wheelchairs outside hospitals smoking. The Senda's of this world, anyone who assaults medical staff, child abusers, people who use gas powered leaf blowers, people who drive Fiat Multiplas (look for a picture), men who can't accept they're going/have gone bald, and anyone who likes Justin Beiber but doesn't like Kate Bush.

I do know plenty of people who never once stopped to think about health care and don't think that it's their responsibility to plan for their future needs. If people rely solely on the government, they may end up disappointed in the level of care that is possible for them.

Because the system as is, is based on insurance companies charging a premium that can change and a cover that is conditional at the whim of the company, not necessarily based on clinical need for the patient. The clinical need should be the priority, not whether someone can afford it, in my humble opinion.

[21st Century Man]

A barter system is just that. The knee operation is worth what can be got for it. A goat? Two goats and a leg of lamb?

No not you, but there are those who really think that anyone not being able to afford healthcare should be left to their own devices. My only sympathy with that view would be people sitting in wheelchairs outside hospitals smoking. The Senda's of this world, anyone who assaults medical staff, child abusers, people who use gas powered leaf blowers, people who drive Fiat Multiplas (look for a picture), men who can't accept they're going/have gone bald, and anyone who likes Justin Beiber but doesn't like Kate Bush.

Because the system as is, is based on insurance companies charging a premium that can change and a cover that is conditional at the whim of the company, not necessarily based on clinical need for the patient. The clinical need should be the priority, not whether someone can afford it, in my humble opinion.

What is your problem with gas powered leaf blowers?  I don't know if you know this Pud but over here in America we have large lots with plenty of trees.  I live on 1.5 acres. Too far to use an electric blower. I could cut the trees down I suppose but I like the shade.  Helps keep the house cool and it is smart environmental policy to keep the trees.