President Donald J. Trump

[TigerLily]

They paid for it.

Our grandparents built this country, we really ought to pay attention to what they have to say about the direction people like Obama are taking it in.

And we will all pay taxes for a single payer system. Which will bring Medicare costs down by providing a larger healthier pool

The only ones who don't like single-payer are Insurance Companies

P.S. my grandma loves Obama. But she has a crush on Bernie

[Yorkshire pud]

WHAT WOULD THE COST BE FOR SOCIALIZED MEDICINE-- ANY IDEA?

When you say 'socialised' do you mean the UK NHS model? I've written about it on this forum in the past and how it works, but this is it briefly:

Anyone who's annual income is up to (I think) £35000 p.a. (approx $40500 at todays rates) pays about £2000 per year (based on married person earning £25000 pa) into a fund called National Insurance, the employer pays another amount  (based on an annual salary of £25000 the employer pays £ 2800 as of 2016) on behalf of the employee. Above the £35000 the employee contribution pays a higher amount which is capped.

This £4800 pa goes into the NHS (As well as funds from income tax, tax on fuel consumer goods etc) and the Benefits (welfare) system.

Irrespective of what the illness is, the treatment is free at the point of need. Operations, GP visits, out patient appointments, physio therapy, transplants, mental health treatment, prosthetic limbs, rehabilitation post op etc.

Is it perfect? Far from it. Its abused by a few and used by politicians as a football. But its innovative and trains every doctor and nurse in the UK. Here's what it did for my parents over the years.

My mother and father both had a heart bypass operations. My dad had an angina attack aged 53. Mum had treatment for pancreatitis but unfortunately succumbed to the same in 2014, and died in intensive care. Dad died last year with a perforated duodenal ulcer compounded with liver and kidney failure. I stayed with him in his final week in a private  ajoining living space next to his room. The care from the staff we both recieved was outstanding. They really could not do enough and the genuine help and support I recieved from the nursing staff and doctors cannot be put in monetary terms.

Total bill to me  and my parents when they were alive from hospitals, doctors etc was zero. No need to choose to eat or have health care. No multi 1000 bombshell before the insurance pays up.

So the dismissive and anathemic reaction that some have to so called socialist health puzzles most people in the UK. Good health is a human right, and poverty should not be a reason to not recieve it. Sure, I last needed hospital surgery in 1997 on my knee and all that money I paid in since went to others, but similarly if I'd been in and out of hospital all my life (as some people do through no fault of their own) I'd have paid no more. In fact due to inability to earn money due to illness, the cost in NI contributions is lessof course.

I'll repeat, it isn't perfect, but its been good to me and anything the USA comes up with that doesn't pander to the insurance companies could do worse than follow the same model. As it stands, the politicians are scared to death of the insurance companies who literally hold the population to ransom.

[Yorkshire pud]

It's not just the cost the first few years of the transition, although anyone paying attention would know the excess waste of a government run anything would far exceed the profits of that same thing in the private sector

The real questions, when these ''you didn't build that'' types steal our healthcare system, are:  will the current level of service remain the same or increase (no), will innovation in medical procedures continue (no), will innovation in medical equipment continue (no), will new drugs continue to be developed at the current rate (no), will medical research continue at the current rate (no).

When the Marxists seize control of an industry or an entire economy, it stagnates and gets run into the ground through bureaucracy and mismanagement.  This is as clear as it can possibly be.  If it weren't for the US leading the world in research, innovation, pharmaceuticals, etc, those Euro-style government run healthcare systems would be worse off than they already are. 

Oh? Please show the papers on that one. I'm very keen to know how the US medical breakthroughs stack up like for like with European or even just UK ones.

And again, I've already debunked those statistics multiple times, including recently, so there's no use in going over it again at this point (just a few hints:  we have more advanced medical equipment per person in hospitals here, for pharma the Europeans stats include just the cost of pills they buy, while the costs attributed to the US include years long development and testing of those pharmaceuticals.  We train more of the world's doctors in our schools and that's counted against our costs, etc, etc.  It's not an apple to apple comparison because the Fake News Media has a narrative they want to push).  There's a reason world leaders and others come to the US for serious medical issues.

What we have is a medical INSURANCE issue, a third world inner city ''Progressive' created issue (that skews the overall health stats), and too much government intrusion NOW which increases costs.  What we don't have is a medical CARE issue.

Debunked what? You rantings are based solely on your uninformed prejudices of something you know little about, and certainly not based on experiences in Europe. Cuba trains some US doctors because it costs too much for them to train. And Cuba has one of the worlds best health services.

[Lt.Uhura]

They paid for it.

Our grandparents built this country, we really ought to pay attention to what they have to say about the direction people like Obama Trump are taking it in.

FIFY. Do try to keep up, PB

[Lt.Uhura]

Here is the cost per capita of countries with "socialized medicine" compared to U.S.   Should I do the next one with crayons?

U.S. costs prior to Obamacare

Centralizing healthcare helps keep costs down. Regular out-patient visits and follow-up after hospitalization, managing chronic conditions in an out-patient setting rather than the ER, etc...There are myriad ways to save healthcare dollars when patients are enrolled in managed care plans with a focus on preventive care. Leaving people without plans is inviting disaster, not just for the patients, but the financial and moral repercussions of leaving millions without healthcare will ultimately take its toll on our country in one way or another.

There's other reasons healthcare in the U.S is so expensive: America is a litigious society, people will sue for every little thing. As a result, doctors tend to practice medicine defensively, ordering tests they might not otherwise order based on their clinical decision, but out of concern they cover all their bases should they get sued. Can you blame them? Malpractice insurance is already ridiculously expensive. Between the health insurance industry dictating what care they'll cover, and attorneys ready to sue, its an uphill battle practicing medicine in the U.S these days.

Another outrageous expense is pharmaceuticals. I was shocked to recently discover roughly 1/4 of every healthcare dollar spent goes to medication. The high price of pharmaceuticals was on Trump's fix-it list, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

So basically, if anyone here has ever been on any type of company improvement committee to improve service and cut costs, you know it's vital to make a list of the barriers to your plan and start there. Since the Rs have given up on healthcare reform and have no idea what to do next, i'll provide a list of barriers for them.

1. The Health Insurance industry  2.Trial lawyers. 3. The Pharmaceutical industry.

I'm not optimistic about the fact that the people tasked to resolve our healthcare problem are deeply embedded with the barriers to the problem. 

[21st Century Man]

Centralizing healthcare helps keep costs down. Regular out-patient visits and follow-up after hospitalization, managing chronic conditions in an out-patient setting rather than the ER, etc...There are myriad ways to save healthcare dollars when patients are enrolled in managed care plans with a focus on preventive care. Leaving people without plans is inviting disaster, not just for the patients, but the financial and moral repercussions of leaving millions without healthcare will ultimately take its toll on our country in one way or another.

There's other reasons healthcare in the U.S is so expensive: America is a litigious society, people will sue for every little thing. As a result, doctors tend to practice medicine defensively, ordering tests they might not otherwise order based on their clinical decision, but out of concern they cover all their bases should they get sued. Can you blame them? Malpractice insurance is already ridiculously expensive. Between the health insurance industry dictating what care they'll cover, and attorneys ready to sue, its an uphill battle practicing medicine in the U.S these days.

Another outrageous expense is pharmaceuticals. I was shocked to recently discover roughly 1/4 of every healthcare dollar spent goes to medication. The high price of pharmaceuticals was on Trump's fix-it list, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

So basically, if anyone here has ever been on any type of company improvement committee to improve service and cut costs, you know it's vital to make a list of the barriers to your plan and start there. Since the Rs have given up on healthcare reform and have no idea what to do next, i'll provide a list of barriers for them.

1. The Health Insurance industry  2.Trial lawyers. 3. The Pharmaceutical industry.

I'm not optimistic about the fact that the people tasked to resolve our healthcare problem are deeply embedded with the barriers to the problem. 

I don't like the idea of government controlling healthcare but you make a lot of excellent points regarding why our healthcare is so expensive and I completely agree.  The litigious nature of our society particularly over the last 50 years has been one of the key reasons why the cost of our healthcare has skyrocketed.

[starrmtn001]

Includes some early NASA/Apollo ll footage, Hubble deep space photography, and info about the new telescope to be launched next year.  Excellent address, Mr. President.
AMAZING: President Donald Trump Weekly Address to the Nation 3-25-17.

https://youtu.be/iWqZ3w7vO3Q

[Jackstar]

Centralizing healthcare helps keep costs down.

Murdering all the patients will do that precisely, equally as well.

[starrmtn001]

Murdering all the patients will do that precisely, equally as well.

See?  This IS the real JacksTar.  Toad ya.

[Jackstar]

Toad ya.

I roll an asterisk for all my saving throws as a racial bonus. Bam.

[Lt.Uhura]

I don't like the idea of government controlling healthcare but you make a lot of excellent points regarding why our health care is so expensive and I completely agree.  The litigious nature of our society particularly over the last 50 years has been one of the key reasons why the cost of our health care has skyrocketed.

We've given these private industries a chance to participate in healthcare, but their unmitigated greed has proven the free market doesn't work for something as vital to our survival as health care. Unlike other consumer services, say auto repair, if you don't like what you're getting you go to another company. And if they offer decent service at a decent price, they make money cause you'll use them again, and recommend them to your friends. 

It seems attempts to reign in the health insurance industry with any type of regulation at this point will result in the companies folding, the executives taking their big bonuses, laying off the employees, and moving on. We may end up with some form of socialized care because there's simply no one left to offer it.

[21st Century Man]

We've given these private industries a chance to participate in healthcare, but their unmitigated greed has proven the free market doesn't work for something as vital to our survival as health care. Unlike other consumer services, say auto repair, if you don't like what you're getting you go to another company. And if they offer decent service at a decent price, they make money cause you'll use them again, and recommend them to your friends. 

It seems attempts to reign in the health insurance industry with any type of regulation at this point will result in the companies folding, the executives taking their big bonuses, laying off the employees, and moving on. We may end up with some form of socialized care because there's simply no one left to offer it.

That is true.  However, the VA has been a failure for many of our veterans and I am extremely reluctant to hand over management of our healthcare to our federal government. I'm not sure what the answer is.  I think tort reform is necessary to help reduce the increasing costs of healthcare.

[Jackstar]

I am extremely reluctant to hand over management of healthcare to our federal government.

... who do you think manages it now???

[Jackstar]

the VA has been a failure for many of our veterans

[Lt.Uhura]

That is true.  However, the VA has been a failure for many of our veterans and I am extremely reluctant to hand over management of our healthcare to our federal government. I'm not sure what the answer is.  I think tort reform is necessary to help reduce the increasing costs of healthcare.

As I've previously pointed out here before, you can not use the VA as an example of a typical government-run healthcare system, due to their unique patient population. Veterans typically present with challenging multiple chronic conditions which require a complex team of providers from a variety of disciplines in order to provide for their physical, mental, and social needs.

Our only option between government and privately run healthcare may be managed care group systems such as Kaiser, with group rate monthly premiums paid for by the members. Government subsidies providing sliding scale premiums based on ones ability to pay would allow room for everyone. Kaiser is very good at keeping costs down through streamlined ease of use, and an emphasis on preventive care. By offering free education on diet, exercise, and well-being, they encourage people to participate in their own care.

[Meister_000]

Forbes March 7, 2017
By Chris Ladd, former GOP Precinct Committeeman, author of The Politics of Crazy and creator of PoliticalOrphans.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/chrisladd/2017/03/07/there-is-never-a-free-market-in-health-care

There Is Never A 'Free Market'
In Health Care

“Where it is impossible to create the conditions necessary to make competition effective, we should resort to other methods of guiding economic activity.”
-Friedrich Hayek, The Road to Serfdom, p.37

Republicans still struggle to promote a credible ownership culture largely because they refuse to wrestle honestly with the hard cases; the situations in which market forces fail to allocate value effectively. Medical care is probably the most frustrating example since it stubbornly resists market solutions and affects everyone deeply.

Health care is not a market. It lacks any of the vital features of a market. Treating health care like a market means living and dying without modern medicine. To advance a culture based on opportunity rather than government dependence, we need an alternative to state-owned health care that keeps key decisions in personal hands, preserves market triggers where appropriate, and rids us of the strangling influence of the massive federal bureaucracy. Republicans cannot do this without abandoning some cherished fantasies about the unquestionable, divinely-ordained righteousness of markets.

In a free market, goods and services are allocated through transactions based on mutual consent. No one is forced to buy from a particular supplier. No one is forced to engage in any transaction at all. In a free market, no transactions occur if a price cannot be agreed.

The medical industry exists almost entirely to serve people who have been rendered incapable of representing their own interests in an adversarial transaction. When I need health services I often need them in a way that is quite different from my desire for a good quality television or a fine automobile. As I lie unconscious under a bus, I am in no position to shop for the best provider of ambulance services at the most reasonable price. All personal volition is lost. Whatever happens next, it will not be a market transaction.

Insurance is the obvious solution. By agreeing to a transaction for insurance coverage at a time when I am healthy, I can in theory provide for my needs when I am ill. But an insurance-funded medical system means abandoning an unregulated free market for health care. The insurer-model creates a three-party managed market in which the patient has surrendered their buying power and much of their discretion to an entity whose interests are not aligned with their own. Insurance companies don’t bleed. Insurance companies don’t get pregnant. Insurance companies don’t get cancer. Insurance companies have certain needs and interests that will never line up squarely with their customers'. I cannot represent my own needs in a conflict with my insurance company when I am seriously ill. At the most critical moment I am at the mercy of an entity with interests at conflict with my own.

Despite the misaligned interests, an insurance-based health system can work quite well. Private insurance coverage is the method most of the world uses to deliver universal health care. But an insurance-driven system, even with private insurers and private health providers, cannot survive under unregulated, free market conditions.

We cannot maintain an insurance-based system of health care unless there is some force aligned with the consumer that has the superior authority and financial backing to hold the insurance providers to their end of the deal. As I lie under that bus in the road, what if my insurance company refuses to pay for my care? What if the insurer tried to intervene in my care to their own benefit instead of mine? What if the company with which I contracted for insurance services collapses and cannot pay for my medical care when I need it?

Absent a competent regulatory scheme, patients, at the moment in which they make their insurance purchase, have no way to be certain which provider will actually deliver on their promise. They will only discover the answer when their life, or the lives of their family members, depend on it. Under an insurance system without effective, powerful regulation, the market forces that would exist in a face to face transaction between consumer (patient) and supplier (doctor) disappear, replaced with a grim gamble in which the insurance company has every incentive to cheat.
Modern health care with all its fancy instruments, amazing methods, and success in extending life and happiness only exists because we started abandoning the free market in medicine a century ago. Go back to paying your doctor with chickens and your doctor will go back to being a part-timer who learned his craft from a book so he could augment his income from blacksmithing.

Does that mean we will eventually have to submit to a fully nationalized, single-payer health system controlled entirely by the federal government? No, the developed world includes a kaleidoscope of different approaches to health care from single-payer to almost exclusively private. They generally deliver better care at lower cost than ours. Alternatives to our broken system are proven, established, and readily available. So far, Republicans have refused to even look at them.

Less government does not necessarily mean more freedom. Lower taxes do not necessarily produce faster growth. It takes smart government to accomplish these goals. Sometimes it takes a government program, a new tax, and an intelligent regulatory scheme to free up the next wave of innovation and individual initiative.

One of the most frustrating obstacles to the growth of a broader entrepreneurship culture in the US is the structure of our health care system. It punishes innovators, chains employees to traditional work, and leaves millions of struggling Americans without access to care. We count on Republicans to deliver pragmatic, sensible solutions that foster a culture of business growth, but when it comes to health care Republicans are off their meds. Until the GOP is ready to move past their free market fundamentalist fantasies in health care and on other issues, our hopes of developing an ownership culture will remain stalled.

[starrmtn001]

Nunes vs Schiff, Getting more answers from FBI Comey and NSA Rogers.  3.25.17.

https://youtu.be/hHK6WwwzCxw

[Up All Night]

What I had in mind was a Grey Goose Gibson:

And I have a White Russian in mind.

Not this one:



But, this one:

[TigerLily]

Indeed. I`m sorry if it`s difficult to make such an admission. Not so much for me; Good to see you, Tigs. Hope the banditos haven`t had their way with you yet.

I'm sorry Future. I meant no slight to you. I was concerned about tarnishing my take'm or leave'm  reputation as a steely-eyed social democrat

[Dr. MD MD]

I'm sorry Future. I meant no slight to you. I was concerned about tarnishing my take'm or leave'm  reputation as a steely-eyed social democrat

I just threw up in mouth a little. 

[Up All Night]

And we will all pay taxes for a single payer system. Which will bring Medicare costs down by providing a larger healthier pool.

The only ones who don't like single-payer are Insurance Companies

Case Closed!! 

[Kidnostad3]

I don't like the idea of government controlling healthcare but you make a lot of excellent points regarding why our healthcare is so expensive and I completely agree.  The litigious nature of our society particularly over the last 50 years has been one of the key reasons why the cost of our healthcare has skyrocketed.

Tort reform is key to the success of any medical plan but both parties have studiously avoided the issue for years.  It must have something to do with the fact that most politicians are lawyers. 

[mikuthing01]

Antifa attacks Trump supporters and loose lol

https://twitter.com/hectorarzula/status/845724420362530816

http://archive.is/gvI8J

[mikuthing01]

Trump supporters make racist pepe hand signals laughinganimegirl.jpg

https://twitter.com/IceManNYR/status/845747808275705860

[Juan]

Tort reform is key to the success of any medical plan but both parties have studiously avoided the issue for years.  It must have something to do with the fact that most politicians are lawyers.

Tort reform has been tried at the state level for at least 40-years. The English common law system was refined over 800- years to be fair to both parties. Beginning in the late 70s the insurance companies repeatedly pressed the legislatures for tort reform. Just about every change resulted in disaster for the insurance companies because of unintended consequences. I see no reason future changes would be any better.

[albrecht]

#3 Pharmaceuticals

There was an interesting hearing on #3 the other day. You can go watch it or at least view the documents from the governments website. Here were are a few thoughts on #3 which would help solve the price problem, still allow for profits and reinvestment in new research, solve the REMs problem/excuse by companies withholding for generics, making pricing negotiations public, and also has a side benefit of the general public from seeing crappy ads.

http://bellgab.com/politics/random-political-thoughts/msg1027133/#msg1027133

[PB the Deplorable]

And we will all pay taxes for a single payer system. Which will bring Medicare costs down by providing a larger healthier pool

The only ones who don't like single-payer are Insurance Companies

P.S. my grandma loves Obama. But she has a crush on Bernie

Well, do you have the Fake Statistics to prove it? 

When Nancy Pelosi was getting ready to pass the bill, without hearings, without debate, without amendments - in a locked room only her the insurance lobbyists and her cronies were allowed to enter, telling us we've have to pass the bill to find out what is in it, etc, etc, etc, the Fake News Media ran a poll showing 85% of Americans were happy with their insurance.  85%.  I don't know how that got out, but it shows even the pretend journalists can only manipulate a poll so much, and putting one out showing people favored the Pelosi plan was just too much to pull off.

After passing it, the Ds have lost the House, the Senate, the Presidency, and 1000 plus seats in state legislatives.  ObamaCare was probably the top issue overall in these races.

Does any of that sound to you like people are clamoring for nationalized healthcare?  Does it really sound to you like ''the only ones who don't like single-payer are Insurance Companies''?

It's so unwanted I doubt the Fake News Media can even manipulate a poll now showing anything near a majority wants it, or they've be leading the news with it on every broadcast and in every newspaper.

[PB the Deplorable]

... And Cuba has one of the worlds best health services.

For the elite.  Don't be a dupe

[JesusJuice]

Trump supporters make racist pepe hand signals laughinganimegirl.jpg

[tweet]845747808275705860[/tweet]

An anthropomorphic green frog that likes to urinate with his pants hiked down.


The "A-OK" hand sign.


Drinking whole milk.


Jane Austen Novels


The music of Depeche Mode.




What are some other examples of white nationalism?

[PB the Deplorable]

... So the dismissive and anathemic reaction that some have to so called socialist health puzzles most people in the UK...

That's fine.  Tell them not to move here.  Why is this even any of your business?

... Good health is a human right...

Actually, it's not.  Rights don't impose on others.  For the most part they are to protect one from an intrusive tyrannical government.  Speech.  Religion.  Self defense.  A fair trial.  To not be forced to testify against one's self.  To not be imprisoned, fined, or executed without due process.  That sort of thing. 

If you had your way, you'd deny us our right to self defense, so you're no one to talk about human rights anyway.

Housing, food, clothing, medical care, as necessary as these are, they are not rights, in the sense one person is obliged by law to provide for another.  We are humane, and generous to a fault, and these are provided.  But they are not rights.