Mormons

[anagrammy]

ADMIN NOTE:  This thread is split from the thread entitled, "Where Is Obama's Original Certificate of Live Birth?"  The original thread veered into a discussion on Mormons/Mormonism, so it's been split off in order for the Mormon tangent to exist in its own space.  For clarification, the following post marks what I thought was the turning point in the "birther" thread:

Lena made an excellent point on the 180's being the true indicator.  He really has no moral compass, he "positions" himself. 

A good example is the health care debate.  Who can forget the man IN THE HOSPITAL who brings his video camera and films his stubby face saying, "Something's terribly wrong with American health care. I've experienced it first hand....blah...something must be done."   Fast forward past his surgery to the TV show where he says, "American health care is so good that third world country leaders come here to have their work done.  It is the BEST!"

He IS a conartist and has appropriated the Mormon strategy used to defend Joseph Smith against critics:  a non sequitur, which goes like this "Joseph Smith was uneducated and an uneducated person could not have written the Book of Mormon; therefore, the Book of Mormon was delivered to him on golden plates, delivered by an angel."

Beck version:  I am a rodeo clown recovering alcoholic, a nobody, and YET
                      I see the conspiracy forming, a Perfect Storm of enemies: atheists, Obamites, communists, the media, THEREFORE
                      I am the One Mighty and Strong sent by God to save the constitution because of my male priesthood power

Notice his rally had the flavor of a religious meeting "Bring America Back to God." 

Then maybe review the stoning of a 19year old in Afghanistan (by all men) because she ran away from her husband.  The pendulum doth swing, people, I talk to someone who swallows every word out of Beck's mouth and consider's him an "ordinary guy who has confounded the puppet masters."

Anagrammy

[MV/Liberace!]

Notice his rally had the flavor of a religious meeting "Bring America Back to God." 

do you mean beck actually had a rally called the "bring america back to god" rally?


if so, that's douche chill inspiring.


and lena is right on mentioning beck's about-face on the ron paul machine.  i guess beck was probably still with headline news at the time he made his negative comments about paul supporters, but it was fox's treatment of dr. paul during the 2008 election that caused me to write them off entirely.

[anagrammy]

Beck's actual rally title was "Rally to Restore Honor."  Jon Steward played off the wording with his "Rally to Restore Sanity."  There is no question the Beck rally had a religious theme.  Read this and weep, my friend, and don't let that pendulum hit you in the ass:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/28/post_497_n_698048.html

I am a volunteer for helping people get out of Mormonism-- I post regularly on a major anti-Mormon website, where we have whistle-blowers and the usual nuts and flowers.  It is interesting to see the Mormons preparing for their boy Mitt to make his run.  They have initiated an internet mass marketing effort, together with billboards which I have seen here in Oakland, CA, featuring attractive, sane-looking people doing interesting athletic activities and at the end proclaiming, "And I'm a Mormon!"

This of course is to move the cult out of the nutbag category, which they earned in their shameful shouldering themselves into the Prop 8 question swinging their bags of gold, so to speak.  Most people don't know that Mormons were assigned a donation requirement in order to fund the Mormon Church effort to overturn the laws permitting gay marriage in California.

Bad juju on them, so consequently they have suffered a big downturn in public opinion. Americans know they are haters (racism, sexism, homophobia) and they have been upping the punishment for masturbation to the point where their young male suicides are the highest in the country.  If you think they are normal, visit www.exmormon.org.

Americans don't like their religion and their government shaken but not stirred.  Mormons, on the other hand, are poised to save the country with their bumpkin Glenn Beck.  Got any of that popcorn left?

Anagrammy

[b_dubb]

as i understand it ... very few attended Beck's rally.  while millions attended Stewart/Colbert rally

maybe there's still hope?   i think that's a good sign personally

[TaoOfLuxLisbon]

Beck used to be a morning zookeeper. And he's now Thomas Paine. God bless America.

[b_dubb]

@ Ana ... i like to think of Mormonism as the Ol' Timey Scientology.  they're just as crazy except they got a much earlier start at being crazy

[slipstream]

@ Ana ... i like to think of Mormonism as the Ol' Timey Scientology.  they're just as crazy except they got a much earlier start at being crazy

What makes Mormons any more or less crazy than any other set of religionists?

[b_dubb]

What makes Mormons any more or less crazy than any other set of religionists?

by degrees.  the mormons require people of color to get blood transfusions from white mormons in order to become mormon church members.  they also use electro shock torture type treatments to try to train the 'gay' out of people.  the creepiest thing is that they keep birth records on EVERYONE in a vault tucked into the side of a moment.  why? mormons believe they can 'save' people even after they are dead.  so the mormons took it upon themselves to 'save' all/most of the Jews who were killed in the death camps during WWII by baptizing them as mormons or converting them - posthumously - to mormonism.  you can see how this really pissed off a lot of people. 

i could go on.  but it just makes me sad.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism

[The General]

by degrees.  the mormons require people of color to get blood transfusions from white mormons in order to become mormon church members.  they also use electro shock torture type treatments to try to train the 'gay' out of people.  the creepiest thing is that they keep birth records on EVERYONE in a vault tucked into the side of a moment.  why? mormons believe they can 'save' people even after they are dead.  so the mormons took it upon themselves to 'save' all/most of the Jews who were killed in the death camps during WWII by baptizing them as mormons or converting them - posthumously - to mormonism.  you can see how this really pissed off a lot of people. 

i could go on.  but it just makes me sad.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism

I'm a former mormon, and these statements are all false.  Well, all except the vault of information in the mountainside.  That's true.   And they baptize people posthumously, yes.  But the bood transfusion thing and the gay electroshock therapy is not true. 

[anagrammy]

Regarding crazy Mormon doctrine-- let me say that there are so many weird things it's a matter of opinion which is weirdest.  That's always subjective and varies by culture.  Basically, most religions mesh well with the idea that people are to be respected, regardless of their beliefs and there is some value given to individual privacy.  Mormons call people of other faiths "gentiles" because they believe themselves to be adopted Jews, the "real" chosen ones, since all other religions have been condemned by God to Joseph Smith as being "abominations."

Mormons are struggling to abandon any of the doctrines which they formerly upheld at the peril of their lives.  For example, they now claim that the modern leader supercedes anything a past leader has said.  A bishop told me to my face that this includes the words of Joseph Smith being "more relevant" than Jesus.

From an atheist's standpoint, one of the more offensive practices is that of literally selling a plastic card which entitles a person entrance to the temple where a lot of Masonic mumbo jumbo goes on, secret hand shakes that get you into heaven, formerly had death oaths and other garbage, including denouncing the pastors of other churches as "hirelings of Satan."  You can't make this stuff up!  So...the modern Mormon is basically forced to donate 10%--not a penny less- or they are told their spouse will be given to another man in the hereafter, which they call the Celestial Kingdom.  It's a form of extortion.  Unless they pay, they cannot watch their children be married, no exceptions.  Non full tithing payers are subjected to humiliation.  I don't see how the IRS considers it a "donation" if the church withholds what most of us would consider a basic family right--to watch our children get married. 

The Mormon church lies about their history and recent DNA tests show that the Native Americans are NOT descendants of Jews after all, which is what the Book of Mormon claimed, so the church just changed the intro--no biggee, they made thousands of other changes in their sacred book in order to correct mistakes in names, places, and doctrine.  But hey, right from the mouth of God into a rock hidden in a hat.  That's how Joseph Smith "translated" golden plates that were not even in the room.

The Mormon megalomaniacs over the years added their own prophetic tidbits which have contributed to a veritable Winchester Mystery House of doctrine which is too funny for Coast listeners not to enjoy.  The following is called "Anagrammy's List" and it's my most popular post.  The references given are sources for verification from Mormon Sacred Scriptures and the record of the sermons of the prophets "The Journal of Discourses."  Get ready for high strangeness and weirdness:

MORMON COSMOLOGY

- God says the correct name for our Sun is "Shinehah," which is the name He gave it. Also, the correct name of the moon is "Olea." See Abraham 3:13.

- God lives on a giant crystal ball. See D&C 130:6-8.

- God's home planet orbits a star named "Kolob." See Abraham 3:3

- Kolob is "the great governing star of our universe" and "the residence of God." See Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith's "Church History and Modern Revelation" Volume 3, Page 60.

- The Sun "borrows it's light from Kolob through the medium of Kae-e-vanrash.. which governs fifteen other fixed planets or stars.. and receives light from the revolutions of Kolob." This quote comes directly from the Book of Abraham, Facsimile Number 2, Explanation for Figure 5. Also see: http://nowscape.com/mormon/kolob-defined.htm

- The Sun is a celestialized world, where its inhabitants are perfected. The Prophet Brigham Young taught in General Conference: "So it is with regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain. It was made to give light to those who dwell upon it, and to other planets; and so will this earth when it is celestialized." See Journal of Discourses, 13:271. Also see Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Volume 1 Page 88: "Earth to be Celestialized Sun"

- The Earth will undergo a perfection after the millenium and become a huge seer stone of glass. People living on the Earth after this transformation will be able to look into the Earth and see things happening on "inferior" kingdoms (planets). See D&C 130:9

- God's home planet, Kolob, is at the center of our Galaxy, which all other stars rotate around. See Clark, J. Reuben Jr., "Behold the Lamb of God," page 46, "Kolob, the Governor"

- The Earth actually has a spirit, just like we do. It had to be baptized (the flood) to fulfill all righteousness, just like us. It will also have to receive the baptism of fire (at the second coming of Christ) in order to receive its exaltation and become a celestialized world. See Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith's "Doctrines of Salvation," Volume 1, pages 73-74, page 87 "Celestial Destiny of the Earth." See also Moses Chapter 7:48-49, 56 where the Earth's spirit speaks with Enoch.

- When Adam and Eve lived in the Garden of Eden, the Earth was closely orbiting Kolob, like God's home planet. But when Adam and Eve fell, so did the Earth and it was hurled across the cosmos and placed in orbit around our sun in this planetary system. After the Millenium, the Earth will return to its rightful place near God, orbiting Kolob. See Church Ensign, March 1997, Page 16 "The Book of Abraham: A Most Remarkable Book," and Journal of Discourses, 17:143 and Journal of Discourses 7:163

- Black Holes are "outer darkness" where God will cast those sons of perdition that deny His spirit. This includes all Ex-Mormons. See "The Creation," page 146 and D&C 101:90-91

- The light of Christ is the light coming from the Sun and the Moon. See D&C 88:7. (The "light" refered to may very well be literal, as well as figurative and symbolic, speaking about Christ's influence.)

- Kolob is the North Star, according to Joseph Smith. Taught by LDS Church Institute Instructor, but still need reference.

mormon-scienceCreation

- Joseph Smith taught that the Earth was created like a cake, from ingredients of different ages. Just like a cake was made from wheat that is a year old, eggs from a few days and milk fresh this morning from the cow, so too, the Earth is made from parts of different ages. See Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pages 350-352.

- God created everything twice, just like Plato said. First there was a spiritual creation, and then there was a physical creation. See Moses 3:5, 6:51 and Endowment Ceremony.

- God did not create the physical Earth Himself. Actually, all of us helped out. Under the direction of Jesus and Adam, we created the Earth. Some of us created trees, others created rocks and still others created animals, based on God's blueprints. See Abraham 3:22-24, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, pages 74-75.

- God can't get his story straight about which order he created the Earth. The order of the days of creation in Moses contradicts the order given in the Temple Endowment, which are both inspired truth. The third day (creation of life, vegetation and seeds) and fourth day (creation of light, moon and stars) of creation are switched in the temple ceremony, whereas Moses matches the order of Genesis. See Moses 2:9-19 and Temple Ceremony (all versions).

- God created the Earth first, then He created the Sun, Moon and stars and the rest of the universe. On the first day of creation God creates the earth (see Moses 2:2-5). On the second day, God creates earth's oceans and the atmosphere (see Moses 2:6-8). On the third day, God separates the land from the water and creates vegetation, fruits and trees (see Moses 2:9-13). Finally, on the fourth day, God creates the Sun, Moon and stars (see Moses 2:14-19).

- Mars and Venus have dry rivers that match perfectly with rivers on Earth, proving that parts of all three were "organized" from parts of a same old planet. Scientists say the moon was formed out of the Earth, why not the other planets too? Still need reference. Taught by LDS Church apostle during stake fireside, but still need reference.

Extra-Terrestrials

- There are human beings on many other planets that look just like us because they too, are in the image of God. See New Era Article "People on Other Worlds" April 1971.

- UFOs are from the City of Enoch, that was raised to heaven because the citizens attained perfection. City of Enoch story is in the Pearl of Great Price, but UFO connection made by LDS Church Seminary teacher. Still need reference.

- Joseph Smith taught that the Ten Lost Tribes had gone to the North Pole, as it used to be warm, but God divided the Earth in two and they wound up between Texas and Florida. Then God scooped them up, leaving a big hole called the Gulf of Mexico. And these millions of Hebrews are today on this island floating around in the solar system, but we can't see them because God has them flying at an angle where the telescopes can't pick them up. But one day the island will crash back into the Gulf and the earth will reel to and fro like a drunken man. See http://www.code-co.com/rcf/mhistdoc/enoch.htm for many scriptural and Joseph Smith prophetic references.

- UFOs are from the lost ten tribes, which live underneath the north pole. As explained in the Doctrine and Covenants, these tribes will return by flight from the north in the Last Days. See D&C 110:11 and 133:26.

- Earth is the most evil of all of God's worlds in the Universe. See Moses 7:36

- God sent Christ here because it was the only world that was wicked enough to kill Jesus. Common teaching from LDS Church Seminary teachers, but still need reference.

- All of the other planets in the universe with God's children have prophets who preach to them about Christ's life, death and resurrection on Earth. Just as our prophets tell us that other worlds have human life on them, so to, true prophets on other worlds teach the life of Christ as he lived it on this Earth. See November 1985 Ensign "Is Jesus Christ the Savior of all the worlds God created or just ours?"

- Mars is populated by beings who, like us, were created in the image of God, so they look like us. Except they are waiting to hear about the Gospel, which we will preach to them during the millenium. Supposedly came from early church conference address by church apostle, but still need reference.

- God created all the planets in our solar system with the explicit "law" to support human life. The other planets in our solar system are already populated or are able to support human life. See "The Essential Orson Pratt, p.373"

- Lucifer only did to Adam and Eve "the same thing which has been done in "OTHER WORLDS," according to the temple endowment. This shows Mormon doctrine embraces the idea of life on other planets.

- "Thus the Lord has given us the information regarding his creations, and how he has made many earths, for there never was a beginning, never was a time when man did not exist somewhere in the universe, and when the time came for this earth to be peopled the Lord, our God, transplanted upon it from some other earth, the life which is found here." Improvement Era, Vol 23:389-393; Joseph Fielding Smith; "The Origin and Destiny of Man"; 1919

Mormon Physics

- All spirit is matter, just "more fine or pure" form of matter which we cannot measure. See D&C 131:7.

- The Mormon God cannot destroy or create matter, he can only "reorganize" it. So the Solar System was formed from other previous creations. See Temple Endowment, The Contributor, Vol. 4, p. 257, and Joseph Smith As Scientist, p. 14.

- God has cursed water and turned it over to Satan to control. Satan controls bodies of water, especially rivers. See D&C 61:13-19

- All matter in the universe chooses to obey God's law. If God had not sacrificed his Only Begotten Son to fulfill the atonement and satisfy the law, then matter would not have continued to respect God and matter would not have continued to obey Him. This is supposedly from ther church's official publication "Jesus the Christ" but is often taught by LDS Church Institute instructors. Still need reference.

- Light is the sole medium which God has for governing the universe. See Journal of Discourses, Volume 15:232

Other Dimensions

- The Earth is the spirit world, where the billions of deceased spirits now live. In fact, there are spirits all around us right now, yet we cannot see them and they cannot see us, thanks to "the veil." [This is so much like a few Star Trek episodes!] Taught by LDS Church Institute instructors - still need reference.


- When babies are born, "the veil" is still very thin and as newborns they can see spirits, remember the "pre-existence" and still hear God directly. It's only later after months trapped in a physical body that "the veil" begins to close over their spiritual awareness. Taught by LDS Church Institute instructors - still need reference.

- Just before people die, "the veil" once again lifts and they start to see again all the spirits and angels all around us. Taught by LDS Church Institute instructors - still need reference.

- God lives in the fourth dimension, which explains why he can see everything, be everywhere and know all time. In fact, as three-dimensional beings, if we could visit flatland (a two-dimensional universe) the inhabitants would think we were Gods. Taught by LDS Church Institute instructors - still need reference.

- The Holy of Holies in the Salt Lake Temple actually contains a portal to the celestial realm at Kolob. Mormon folklore, source reference needed.

Time and Time Travel

- God travels much faster than the speed of light. God travels at the "speed of thought." Very common Mormon belief, source reference needed.

- A day for God is like a thousand years on Earth. This is because it takes a thousand Earth years for God's home planet Kolob to rotate around once on its axis. See Abraham 3:4-5

- God lives by "celestial time, which celestial time signifies one day to a cubit" See Book of Abraham, Facsimile Number 2, Explanation for Figure 1.

- Adam and Eve living in the Garden of Eden were "subject to Kolob Time." See Abraham 5:13

- Seer stones allow us to see past, present and future events at any location. All of those that make it to the Celestial Kingdom will have their own seer stone, to review any moment or location in the universe. See D&C 130:10-11

- If it wasn't for "Cherubum and a Flaming Sword" in front of the tree of life, Adam and Eve would have lived "forever" after eating the forbidden fruit. See Alma 12:21, 42:2-3 and Moses 4:31

- A righteous man's "time" on this Earth is not "cut short," according to the D&C 122:9.

- Christ's atonement was eternal, reached back in time and retro-actively saved the faithful who lived and died before the event occurred, yet they were told to wait for his coming in order to be saved. (Mormon Doctrine, 2nd ed., Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, pp. 64, 65).

- God showed his temporal prophets "everything from the beginning to the end of time", as accounts record in the Pearl of Great Price and the Book of Mormon. See stories of Nephi, Moses and Abraham. Also see D&C 101:32-34.

- The earth's lifetime is divided into "dispensations" of time. The correct name for our current dispensation of time is "Adam-ondi-Ahman" which Joseph Smith explained to mean "The place or land of God where Adam dwelt." (Mormon Doctrine, by Bruce McConkie, p. 19-20)

Geology

- Right from the scriptures, the Earth's total temporal existence is 7,000 years. See D&C 77:6

- There's more gold and mineral riches in Utah than the rest of the world combined. It's hidden from you because of a lack of faith. There's no need to go to California to pan for Gold, because God will reveal these riches to you when you are righteous enough. This was preached from the pulpit at the Tabernacle by the Prophet of the Church. See Journal of Discourses 1:264.

- Fossilized dinosaur bones are from dinosaurs that lived on other worlds that were destroyed to create the Earth. They were living creatures, but not from this Earth. (See Creation above) Taught by LDS Church Institute instructors. Still need reference.

- Carbon dating is phony because God has altered the Earth so many times with processes we can't understand or measure. Taught by LDS Church Institute instructors. Still need reference.

- The Garden of Eden was in Missouri. Noah was taken to the Old World by the Flood. This teaching was given by Joseph Smith and is still accepted as true doctrine. Given this teaching, Mormons have to accept the flood as a global phenomenon. (Mormon Doctrine, by Bruce McConkie, "Adam-Ondi-Ahman" p. 19-20)

- Prophet preaches from the Tabernacle pulpit in General Conference that "Gold and silver grow, and so does every other kind of metal, the same as the hair upon my head, or the wheat in the field.." See JoD 1:209.

Mormon Biology

- Adam and Eve did not have blood in their bodies in the Garden of Eden. The Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith taught: "Adam [and, by extension, all of the animal creation] had no blood in his veins before the fall. Blood is the life of the mortal body." After Adam partook of the forbidden fruit, blood became "the life-giving fluid in Adam's body, and was inherited by his posterity. Blood was not only the life of the mortal body, but also contained in it the seeds of death which bring the mortal body to its end. Previously the life force in Adam's body, which is likewise the sustaining power in every immortal body, was the spirit." - Joseph Fielding Smith, Man: His Origin and Destiny (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1954), pp. 362, 376-77.

- Adam lived nearly 1,000 years and the prophets used to live hundreds of years because they lived the Word of Wisdom perfectly and had more pure blood in their veins. Over time, the human race has polluted blood more and more. Taught by LDS Church Institute instructors. Still need reference.

- Adam did not have a navel, Eve did. Taught by LDS Church Institute instructors. Still need reference.

- Mormonism directly explains the creation of at least one race by God. Mormon scripture taught that Cain was so evil, God cursed him and his lineage with black skin, creating the African race. See Moses 7:22. Mormon Doctrine explains: "Cain was cursed with a dark skin; he became the father of the Negroes, and those sprits who are not worthy to receive the priesthood are born though his lineage. He became the first mortal to be cursed as a son of perdition. As a result of his mortal birth he is assured of a tangible body of flesh and bones in eternity, a fact which will enable him to rule over Satan." Mormon Doctrine, Page 102.

- When Native Americans become Mormons, their skin turns white. The Prophet Spencer W. Kimball taught the principle of this process in a General Conference address. He stated how the "Indians are fast becoming a white and delightsome people." He said, "The [Indian] children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation... These young [Indian] members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness. One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated." LDS General Conference, October 1960, Spencer W. Kimball, (Improvement Era, December 1960, pp. 922-3). Also see the original Mormon prophesy of this effect in 2 Nephi 30:6.

- Drinking tea may tan your stomach similarly to what happens in a teapot. (Missionary teaching technique taken seriously by some).

- All races, including Blacks, Asians, Indians etc.. will be resurrected in their perfect state as white Caucasians. Taught by LDS Church Institute instructors. Still need reference.

- Our Spirit bodies look exactly the same as our physical bodies, even before birth. In the book of Mormon, Christ appeared (and touched the stones) to the Brother of Jared in the BoM in his spirit form, which appeared the same as his future body would thousands of years later when he was born. See Ether 3:15-17

- Resurrection is simply a priesthood ordinance not yet revealed, but that will be revealed after the millenium. See LDS Church News Archives, Saturday, January 15, 2000, "Resurrection is a priesthood ordinance. 'As to how the dead are raised, we know that it is by the power of Jesus Christ because He holds the keys of death, hell, and resurrection,' said Brother Matthews. '. . . President Brigham Young and Elder Erastus Snow taught that the resurrection will be conducted much as other things are done in the kingdom, by those in authority and by delegation.'"

- Resurrected bodies do not have blood but instead rely on the spirit to stay alive. The Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith taught: "Our Father in heaven and our Savior and all those who have passed through the resurrection have physical bodies of flesh and bones, but their bodies are quickened by spirit and not by blood, hence they are spiritual bodies and not blood bodies. The immortal body is quickened by spirit, but the mortal body is quickened by blood... . Now when Adam was in the Garden of Eden, he was not subject to death. There was no blood in his body and he could have remained there forever. This is true of all other creations." (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, pp. 76-77).

[onan]

To me, no matter what the religion, its delusional. Take your pick they all spell crazy. To point to one and select its crazy points it kind of futile.

Then again many believe that not subscribing to the common belief is some form of neurotic thought... so what to make of it... screw em all.

Adding to the point, I don't fear the mormon movement to maneuver politics anymoreso than the religious fundies still in the pocket of the extreme right.

[b_dubb]

and if you're mormon ... battlestar galactica is a documentary

[b_dubb]

i've also heard that mormons tell their children that every time they masturbate God kills a kitten

i'm glad that i've been doing my part to keep the feral cat population in check

[Silent]

To me, no matter what the religion, its delusional. Take your pick they all spell crazy. To point to one and select its crazy points it kind of futile.

Then again many believe that not subscribing to the common belief is some form of neurotic thought... so what to make of it... screw em all.

Adding to the point, I don't fear the mormon movement to maneuver politics anymoreso than the religious fundies still in the pocket of the extreme right.

I'd fully agree with you.  I see Mormons and Scientology singled out most often but you could make a list like that for any religion.  They all have a laundry list of far out claims.  I don't assume to know anyone's religion or lack of here but in my personal life I've met a lot of christians who laugh at other religions because of these 'crazy' ideas they have as if their own religion isn't full of the same.  The difference is that a lot of people in this country are brought up and indoctrined into christianity so they're used to that theology.  It also is the largest religious group here which makes it easier to point out the flaws of smaller groups.  It's kind of the idea that since it's bigger it must be more credible.  Even for non believers it can be hard to be crtiical with christianity since, likely, so many of their friends and family follow it.  Also it seems that the relative age of religions comes into play.  Mormonism and Scientology have been created in recent history which makes it easier to laugh at.  Lots of people give a pass to old religions simply because, again, older somehow makes them credible.

Even as a non believer I fall into the same line of thinking.  To me, thinking about Joseph Smith and L Ron coming up with that stuff, it's funny.  Jesus, Moses, Noah, and the rest of of the christian bible are much less funny even though I give it just as much credence.  It was part of the culture I was raised around.

[analog kid]

I, for one, would welcome our Osmond family overlords.

That's an impressive list anagrammy. Hadn't heard of a lot of those things.

[The General]

That's an impressive list anagrammy. Hadn't heard of a lot of those things.

Neither have 90% of mormons.  I mean, a lot of this stuff just isn't true.  A lot of it is from sources that the church denounces, like the Journal of Discourses.  A lot of it is Mormon Urban Legend.  I'm not here to defend mormons, but if you're going to list crazy stuff they believe, you should really stay away from such esoteric and made up stuff, and stick to the REAL crazy stuff they believe.  There's plenty of it.  But really, mormons are harmless.   They just believe in a made up religion just like everybody else.

[anagrammy]

General, did you miss the stoning of the 19 year old girl who ran away from her arranged marriage?

In the name of religion.

Do you not know of the bloody history of the Mormon Church?  Like the Mountain Meadows Massacre where Mormons slaughtered over 100 men, women, and children in the Fancher wagon train from Arkansas and blamed it on the Indians? 

In the name of religion.

Do you not know that escalating numbers of young men have committed suicide because they were gay or masturbated and felt there was no salvation for them.  The Mormon Church taught them that and continues to practice sexism, racism and homophobia WHICH AFFECTS FAMILIES, tears them apart and leads young people to desperate acts.

Mormonism ruined my family and yes, there are other crazy religions, but this one and the Amish are considered the only true subcultures in the United States. Utah leads the nation in the use of anti-depressants, youth suicides, teacher molestations, and more business fraud.  If the Mormon church made people happy,  there wouldn't be a need for anti-depressants.  And Mormons would be impervious to fraud, because when people prayed about their business ventures or investments, God would tell them who the conmen are.

Mormons have different values than Americans and I will focus on sexism since the gay oppression has received so much publicity with Mormon funding on Prop8 opposition, and the public rescission of racist policies is generally known by everyone.  Here is an excerpt from a BYU student's essay on Women and Mormonism, link below.

Mormons, and particularly Mormon girls, are commanded to remain completely chaste until marriage. Girls grow up believing that their virginity is what makes them worth marrying (Laake 195), and they are told that "If you sully your body by allowing boys to touch it in forbidden ways...no good man will ever want to marry you" (Johnson 74). According to Mormon Doctrine, "Loss of virtue is too great a price to pay even for the preservation of one's life--better dead clean, than alive unclean" (McConkie 124). In order to enter the temple for the all-important marriage ceremony, Mormons must undergo a rigorous interview by their bishops about the intimate details of their sexual history to ensure their purity (Laake 86). Mormon colleges today have dress codes for women which forbid shorts, short skirts, and other articles of clothing that could possibly incite a young man's lust.

Mormons, like most religions, believe that the woman in a relationship bears the guilt for any sexual wrongdoing. Girls are told that if they "let" a man touch them, he will not respect them, even though he is the one doing the touching. One Mormon woman's date, at the front door of her house at the end of a perfectly sinless night, ordered her to enter her house, fall on her knees, and pray for forgiveness for the sins that she had made him want to commit (Johnson 79).

The strict chastity demanded by the church often clashes with the fact that girls are taught please their husbands and the other men in their lives. This lesson makes it very difficult to maintain the strict chastity required of women. What does a girl do when the man she is dating, whom she is supposed to obey because he is inspired by God, wants to do more than kiss her? In Mormon-dominated Utah, in 1978, seventy percent of the teenage brides were pregnant at their weddings (Johnson 39).

However, the Mormon church is more tolerant of unwed mothers or pregnant brides than it is of divorced women (Laake 217). No matter how sinful the circumstances, a pregnant woman is fulfilling God's plan and her purpose in life, by providing a body for one of the many spirits waiting to be born. Bearing children is the main purpose of a woman in this life; Sonia Johnson stated that, "I'd been conditioned to believe that if I didn't have babies, I wasn't worth much. Having children was what women were made for" (Johnson 42).




The yellow portion highlighted above is the main reason for so many suicides.  There is a tremendous amount of pressure put on young men to go on a mission and they are not considered marriageable by the "choice" virgin Mormon women unless they do.  There are many, many stories of the suicides of young men who have received substandard medical care on their missions where they were isolated by Mormon authorities, had passports taken a way, forbidden to contact parents, etc.  One young man was going to become a pediatrician. He went on a mission, became depressed, was given an overdose of antidepressant medication and suffered brain damage.  He killed himself five minutes after arriving home with a gunshot to the head.  The thought of disappointing God, family, friends and feelings of personal unworthiness due to masturbating or questioning Mormon beliefs are all ideas inculcated and taught by the Mormon cult. 

Read more about Mormon missionary and/or gay suicides before you conclude that the Mormon church is harmless.

Anagrammy

[The General]

General, did you miss ........
(edited for brevity)
Do you not know of the bloody history of the Mormon Church? 
.....

I could rattle off bloodshed, sexism, racism, etc all tied to any religion.  They all have it.  In spades.  The problem is people.  People are flawed, and sometimes they use religion as their excuse, and sometimes they don't.  Most mormons, muslims, catholics, jews etc are peace loving people, it's always the exceptions that are used to paint the whole group as some bloodthirsty cult. 

Trust me, I in no way am trying to defend the beliefs of Mormonism, it's a fraudulent religion.  But most mormons would make excellent neighbors.  Their values are wholly American, and I just hate to see this kind of defamation.

It's a voluntary religion.  People are welcome to leave it.  I did.

[anagrammy]

General, you responded way too fast to have even looked up anything regarding the pressures put on youth and the fact that Mormonism is a culture in addition to a religion.  I'm not defaming the religion, I am pointing to the truth.  It was easy for you to leave, so you think it's easy for anyone.

Over the last 25 years I have worked with helping people out of cults.  As a white male member of the elite establishment, you would have no idea what it might be like to be an order-follower instead of an order-giver.

No one was allowed to leave the Mormon Church voluntarily when I left in the 80's. They excommunicated you and that information was available to anyone in Utah by phoning the church headquarters and asking "is so and so a member in good standing."  That meant I could not get a job as an apostate.  That is an example of how a religion being a subculture hurts people.  Now this situation has eased up some, whereas other abuses of power have sprung up.

For example, church members in California report being assigned to a donation amount to help finance the fight against Prop8.  The church calculated their income based on their 10% tithing and told them to pay up.  This is wrong on so many levels:

1) Not voluntary, therefore  not a donation
2) Violation of church and state to collect money for political purposes
3) Complete violation of personal choice- maybe some of their members have some empathy for gay people, didn't matter.

Churches, in my opinion, should be required to disclose their finances.  In England, they are required to do that and the Mormon church was found to be committing fraud.  They collected thousands of dollars for the tsunami victims and sent guess how much of the money collected to the victims?  Zero.  It's a matter of public record.

SO- am I defaming the religion to make you aware of some facts?  Am I against the Mormon people?  Of course not, I love the Mormon people and view them as the victims they are--they have all the struggles you and I have, 10% less money, and an impossible target of perfection to achieve while performing free services for their church at the expense of their families.  This type of abuse has become aggravated lately when members see the Mormon church constructing a 3 billion dollar mall in downtown Salt Lake City while asking members to voluntarily clean the church buildings to save money. So there goes their Saturday, the one day they had left after Mormonism sucked up Sunday with a three-hour meeting.

Before you snap back a reply, General,--check what I'm telling you out on the internet.  It has become much easier to resign your membership now--you can do it by email.  Economy of scale in operating costs, I guess.

Anagrammy

[DoYouThinkItWasAngels]

I am finding this discussion really fascinating, seeing two different takes on Mormon apostasy.

[MV/Liberace!]

This of course is to move the cult out of the nutbag category, which they earned in their shameful shouldering themselves into the Prop 8 question swinging their bags of gold, so to speak.

i think the mormon cult was perceived to be an exercise in "nutbaggery" LONG before they offended any gay marriage activists.

[MV/Liberace!]

For example, church members in California report being assigned to a donation amount to help finance the fight against Prop8.  The church calculated their income based on their 10% tithing and told them to pay up.  This is wrong on so many levels:

1) Not voluntary, therefore  not a donation
2) Violation of church and state to collect money for political purposes
3) Complete violation of personal choice- maybe some of their members have some empathy for gay people, didn't matter.

first off, there's hardly a single religious organization out there that doesn't engage the political process, be it through financial backing or otherwise.  that doesn't make the mormons unique.  second, i fail to see how a religious organization's activism has anything to do with "separation of church and state."  i think that term gets thrown around too loosely.

[anagrammy]

My use of the term reflects my own opinion.  When people donate to a church for God's work, I think their donation should be voluntary and it should go for God's work and the relief of suffering in the world.  When churches adopt political positions, I don't care who they are, I think they are wrong.  If you stop to think about it, why do they need to make contributions, and ask members to give $$$, call in their favors, etc, when THEY HAVE THE POWER OF PRAYER.  They claim to enable parishioners/members to connect with this awesome power to perform miracles "if it be His will." 

Don't you think it's funny that they don't believe in the power of prayer themselves?

Don't know your particular stance and hoping I'm not being offensive, but why didn't they call in the Big Man to act on Prop8?

This is particularly funny when you consider that the Mormons have a prophet that is supposed to have a "special witness" in order to even be eligible to be in the gerontocracy.  In other words, he has to claim to have had a visitation from Christ himself.  This honor is ratified in the Temple through a Second Endowment in which the person is blessed that he will allow himself to be killed rather than err in his leadership, and some other cultish mumbo-jumbo.

When I was in Relief Society (the women's organization), the bishop's wife complained that she was the only one in her family who hadn't had her "Calling and Election Made Sure."  This is the cult term for having a confirmation of your special-ness by Jesus Christ in person.  She said her husband had, she said her father in law had.  Her father in Law was the apostle Hunter who became the prophet leader of the church briefly.  Her husband is now the Oakland Temple president and good chance he's on the prophet-track.

This is also interesting to me since the Oakland Temple president was once my bishop and I reported child molestation to him.  As in the Catholic church, the perp just moved away and was protected by the priesthood leadership.  None of the two women he subsequently married were warned he was a pedophile.  Some years later I got a call from a woman desperately asking me to file an affidavit supporting her in court so she could get supervised visitation like I had--for her two year old baby.  She said he was molesting her.  She and I calculated that after I divorced him, fourteen children were allowed to have this man for their stepfather, thanks to this man who is queuing up for the Mormon equivalent of pope.


Anagrammy

[b_dubb]

i think the mormon cult was perceived to be an exercise in "nutbaggery" LONG before they offended any gay marriage activists.

well they were driven out of town after town, state after state, for their beliefs.  mostly polygamy.  i think from day one outsiders thought they were lunatics.  or if you were really into having 21 wives (most of whom were probably underage) you were like ... where do i sign up?

[Lena]

do they also allow 1 wife owning 3 men?

[DoYouThinkItWasAngels]

This is also interesting to me since the Oakland Temple president was once my bishop and I reported child molestation to him.  As in the Catholic church, the perp just moved away and was protected by the priesthood leadership.

What I don't understand with the Catholics, or in this case with the Mormons, is the cognitive dissonance required to maintain a strong faith and continually rape children.  How do they do it?  Are they secretly atheists?  Are they secretly Satanists?  Are they trying their darndest to resist their foul urges?  It is a huge mystery to me.

[The General]

General, you responded way too fast to have even looked up anything regarding the pressures put on youth and the fact that Mormonism is a culture in addition to a religion.  I'm not defaming the religion, I am pointing to the truth.  It was easy for you to leave, so you think it's easy for anyone.

I lived it.  I was a member for 20+ years, I don't need to look up stuff somebody wrote on the internet about it.  I respect your views, I just think you have an axe to grind and you are giving them way too much power by devoting so much time and energy into researching so much esoteric stuff that not even practicing mormons believe in.

No one was allowed to leave the Mormon Church voluntarily when I left in the 80's. They excommunicated you and that information was available to anyone in Utah by phoning the church headquarters and asking "is so and so a member in good standing."  That meant I could not get a job as an apostate.  That is an example of how a religion being a subculture hurts people.  Now this situation has eased up some, whereas other abuses of power have sprung up.

People have always been free to leave the Mormon church.  How entrenched you are with your friends, family, and work may make it difficult but they have always had a program by which you ask to be expunged from their membership list, and they take your name off, nullify your baptism and membership and any special standing you had and you are no longer mormon. 

For example, church members in California report being assigned to a donation amount to help finance the fight against Prop8.  The church calculated their income based on their 10% tithing and told them to pay up.  This is wrong on so many levels:

1) Not voluntary, therefore  not a donation
2) Violation of church and state to collect money for political purposes
3) Complete violation of personal choice- maybe some of their members have some empathy for gay people, didn't matter.

The %10 tithe is also completely voluntary.
I also agree that churches should have to disclose what they spend their money on. 

And 'defaming' was a little harsh, I don't think you are defaming the mormons, I just hate to see lists like that where 90% of it is not true. 

Before you snap back a reply, General,--check what I'm telling you out on the internet.  It has become much easier to resign your membership now--you can do it by email.  Economy of scale in operating costs, I guess.

Internet is not really a good place to research this.  There is all kinds of made up shit out there.
And I was not aware that you could resign your membership by email, I'm surprised at that.  When I did it ten years ago it had to be done with a signed letter, with a follow up meeting.  It was hard for me to do.  So don't assume I think it's all easy.  Because it wasn't for me.  I moved a state away to be free from the grips of the mormon culture.  But as a group of people, they are by and large peace loving good Americans that don't hurt anybody.  But their doctrine is horseshit.

I like your posts, Anagrammy.  I always read them and like them, so don't think I'm attacking you.

[anagrammy]

The early Mormon prophets also took women to wife who were already married to their friends.  For example, Joseph Smith would send one of his followers on a mission to England, then tell the man's wife that God told him she was to be his wife as well, and then he would bed her.  Then he moved on to the children of his counselors, namely one Helen Marr Kimball, age 14. 

So in answer to your question, they practiced polyandry without the consent of the existing husband. Polygamy started when Joseph Smith's wife, Emma, found him having sex with 16 year old Fanny Alger in the barn.  Fanny's pregnancy began to show and Emma sent her away. Joseph forced Emma to accept his "revelation from God" regarding polygamy by telling her an "angel with a flaming sword" appeared to him and threatened death if she did not accept.

These 31 wives of Joseph Smith documented their terrible experience in journals.  You can read their experience straight from their own hand at

http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/

There are many great books on true Mormon history, which is very different from what you may have heard.  "Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale" is a wonderful biography of Joseph Smith and is available through Mormon bookstores.  Truth is definitely stranger than fiction.

http://www.lds-mormon.com/emma.shtml

Anagrammy

PS. THe modern Mormon church still believes polygamy is part of God's sacred plan of salvation and it will be practiced in heaven.  Men have multiple wives on the temple records; however, women can only have one.  The wives of unfaithful men (like they don't pay the whole 10% tithing) will see their wives and children assigned to other men.

[The General]

Don't know how this got turned into a thread about Mormons, but that's cool.

@ Anagrammy:  Yeah the polygamy thing is messed up.  This was one of the three things that for me proved that the religion was false.  The three fatal flaws in mormon doctrinal logic are as follows...

1.  It is explicitly stated in the Doctrine and Covenants that a man MUST have multiple wives to get into the kingdom of heaven.  Then, when it was politically expedient to do so, they renounced the polygamy thing in order to gain statehood for Utah.  The federal government wouldn't allow them to have both.  So I guess polygamy wasn't that important to getting into heaven after all.

2.  Black people were not allowed to hold the preisthood until it was politcally expedient to do so after the civil rights movement.  The original stance was that blacks were somehow unclean.  And, wouldn't ya know it, just in time, God cleansed all their blood good enough to allow them to hold the preisthood about 1978.  Elder Bruce R. McConkie, a powerful elder of the church at the time said “we should forget everything that has been said in the past on this topic.“  Amazing coincidence.  I call BS.

3.  Official mormon doctrine holds the following two contradictory statements to be true.
"As man is, God once was.  And as God is, man can become."
"God is eternal, has always been God and always will be God.  No Gods have come before him and no Gods will come after him." - BOTH CANNOT BE TRUE!  I realized this in my teens and declared mormonism a fake religion. 

[Marc.Knight]

Don't know how this got turned into a thread about Mormons, but that's cool.

@ Anagrammy:  Yeah the polygamy thing is messed up.  This was one of the three things that for me proved that the religion was false.  The three fatal flaws in mormon doctrinal logic are as follows...

1.  It is explicitly stated in the Doctrine and Covenants that a man MUST have multiple wives to get into the kingdom of heaven.  Then, when it was politically expedient to do so, they renounced the polygamy thing in order to gain statehood for Utah.  The federal government wouldn't allow them to have both.  So I guess polygamy wasn't that important to getting into heaven after all.

2.  Black people were not allowed to hold the preisthood until it was politcally expedient to do so after the civil rights movement.  The original stance was that blacks were somehow unclean.  And, wouldn't ya know it, just in time, God cleansed all their blood good enough to allow them to hold the preisthood about 1978.  Elder Bruce R. McConkie, a powerful elder of the church at the time said “we should forget everything that has been said in the past on this topic.“  Amazing coincidence.  I call BS.

3.  Official mormon doctrine holds the following two contradictory statements to be true.
"As man is, God once was.  And as God is, man can become."
"God is eternal, has always been God and always will be God.  No Gods have come before him and no Gods will come after him." - BOTH CANNOT BE TRUE!  I realized this in my teens and declared mormonism a fake religion.

Joseph Smith was 21 years old when he did most of his "divine translation" to start the religion.  I do not know a lot about the church doctrinally, but the basis of the faith was created from an adolescent mind.