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Mormons

Started by anagrammy, January 29, 2011, 12:56:45 PM

onan

Quote from: anagrammy on February 02, 2011, 07:10:22 AM

1. The group is focused on a leader to whom members seem to display excessively zealous, unquestioning commitment. Typically, the leader is alive, but in some cases may be deceased, but his or her “message” (belief system, ideology, touted practices) is still upheld as the Truth, as law...

...15. ‪The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group, believing there is no other way to be, and often fearing reprisals to self or others if they leave or even consider leaving the group.

Anagrammy

My intentions are not meant to be argumentative, but I do not see any of the 15 points that do not pertain to other religions as well. Heck I am not a big fan of religion of any flavor. I almost feel like this has become a campaign and in my eyes that starts to erode credibility. Even the term cult itself raises the hair on my neck. I cannot count the number of protestants that over the years have not specified some other group as a cult and therefore needed some sort of fix or avoidance.

Not everyone that gets into a mess is mentally ill and not everyone that lives a life different than ours is in trouble. The abuse of anyone should never be tolerated. But keep it about the abuse not the whacknut religion. Punish the criminal not the clothes.

Marc.Knight

Quote from: onan on February 02, 2011, 09:35:01 AM
My intentions are not meant to be argumentative, but I do not see any of the 15 points that do not pertain to other religions as well. Heck I am not a big fan of religion of any flavor. I almost feel like this has become a campaign and in my eyes that starts to erode credibility. Even the term cult itself raises the hair on my neck. I cannot count the number of protestants that over the years have not specified some other group as a cult and therefore needed some sort of fix or avoidance.

Not everyone that gets into a mess is mentally ill and not everyone that lives a life different than ours is in trouble. The abuse of anyone should never be tolerated. But keep it about the abuse not the whacknut religion. Punish the criminal not the clothes.


Existence is partly defined by relationships.  Therefore, a potential cause of an effect cannot be ignored.  I believe that our thoughts could intersect if you said that not all people are affected (behaviour) in the same way by the same cause (religion).  Therefore, some practitioners of Mormanism exhibit empirically different behaviour than others, based on a common belief system.  Hence, it can be posited that some people can be abusive because of their religious beliefs.

slipstream

anagrammy,


Is there anything good about Mormonism?

The General

Anagrammy,
I realize that it is not a list that you came up with, but just for fun, I'm going to go through this as a former Mormon and comment on each one.  I have heard Mormonism called a cult many, many times and it always makes me mad, because if Mormonism is a cult then so is Catholicism, Judiasm, Islam, and Christianity in general.

"1. The group is focused on a leader to whom members seem to display excessively zealous, unquestioning commitment. Typically, the leader is alive, but in some cases may be deceased, but his or her “message” (belief system, ideology, touted practices) is still upheld as the Truth, as law."
The Pope, Jesus, and Mohammed also fit this description.

"2. ‪Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished."
Duh.  That's why I left.  They really didn't like my uncomfortable questions.  All religions are like that.  Try questioning immaculate conception in Catholic school and see where that gets you.

"3. ‪Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s)."
Mormons do not practice meditation, chanting, speaking in tounges, etc.  Debilitating work routines?  They do stay busy.

4. ‪The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry; leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).
I did not find this to be true.  I found most Mormons to be more libertarian in their practices.  There are dress codes, but that does not make them a cult.  Getting permission to date, marry, etc is not a requirement in the mainstream LDS church.

5. ‪The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar; the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).
Elitist, yes.  The leader is not considered the Messiah.  WHO WROTE THIS LIST?  It's not correct at all.  The leader of the church is called a Prophet and supposedly speaks for God and Christ.  Just like the Pope is the Vicar of Christ.  Not the Messiah.

6. ‪The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which causes conflict with the wider society.
All religions.

7. ‪The leader is not accountable to any authorities (as are, for example, military commanders, and ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).
The leaders are accountable to the laws of the land just like any other group or religion. 

8. ‪The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify the means (what members are expected to do). This may result in members participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, collecting money for bogus charities).
This just doesn't happen, and it it does, it is not sanctioned officailly by the church.  They believe in the ten commandments just like every other Christian based religion. 

9. ‪The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt in members in order to influence and control them. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.
Seriously, that is every religion.  Fear, guilt, and control.

10. ‪Subservience to the leader/group results in members cutting ties with family, friends, and radically altering personal goals and activities that were of interest before joining the group.
No family member cut ties with me when I left.  It's uncomfortable for everybody, but Mormons believe in being social, not cutting ties with non-mormons.

11. ‪The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.
So is Amway.

12. ‪The group is preoccupied with making money.
See #11.  So is WalMart.  So am I.  I have a mortgage to pay.  Am I a cult?

13. ‪Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.
This I agree with.  It's an 8 days a week kind of religion.  But still it's voluntary and I don't think it makes them a cult.

14. ‪Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.
I disagree.  Mormons believe in reaching out and socializing.  How are they going to get all those new members if they only talk to other Mormons? 

15. ‪The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group, believing there is no other way to be, and often fearing reprisals to self or others if they leave or even consider leaving the group.
If they're true belivers, why are they considering leaving?  This doesn't make sense to me.

MERRIAM-WEBSTER Definition of CULT
1: formal religious veneration : worship
2: a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3: a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
4: a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator <health cults>
5a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad
b : the object of such devotion
c : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion

With such a loose definition of Cult, (see the first entry)  any religion could be called a cult. 

b_dubb

the religious get really defensive when you examine their belief system with a critical eye.  a briefly attended a christian church a few years ago thinking they were more progressive than they were.  nope.  fundamentalists.  that point was made painfully clear when the guys from the men's group gave me a copy of "The Case For Christ" (which makes a really WEAK case for christ btw).  when they would ask me why i wouldn't 'accept christ as my lord and savior', i began listing all my reasons for not believing that the bible was the literal word of god, jesus was magic, etc., etc.

they kicked me out when i suggested that jesus' miracle, divine conception was a myth that stemmed from Mary being violated by a roman centurion and in the subsequent grief/rage created a fantasy about divine conception.  i'm not saying that's what happened but it's a lot more plausible than a magic baby appearing out of nowhere.

the same logic applies to annakin skywalker

onan

Quote from: Marc Knight on February 02, 2011, 09:58:41 AM


Existence is partly defined by relationships.  Therefore, a potential cause of an effect cannot be ignored.  I believe that our thoughts could intersect if you said that not all people are affected (behaviour) in the same way by the same cause (religion).  Therefore, some practitioners of Mormanism exhibit empirically different behaviour than others, based on a common belief system.  Hence, it can be posited that some people can be abusive because of their religious beliefs.

That can be said of how we digest apple pie as well. We all have belief systems and none of them are illegal; behaviors from those beliefs are another matter. I do not mind making some behaviors illegal, thought though... that is another matter.

anagrammy

To think that cults are about thought is like thinking recreational drugs are about nutrition, or that pot smokers are the same as heroin addicts.  It is a gross oversimplification and, therefore, a distortion.  There is far more than thought going on in religion; there is exploitation and certainly abuse of power.

I just came back from a conference in St. George, Utah, where scholarly Mormons and exMormons were meeting to discuss DNA findings regarding the claims of the Book of Mormon and the geography of the Book of Mormon.  Kinda like talking about the location of specific hills in Narnia, but whatever.  It's a narrow interest and my friend and I had a great time in Dixie.

I hope all of you heard the recent show about Scientology.  The guest mentioned that he learned about the cosmology of Scientology from South Park.  He hadn't paid enough to earn Theta levels high enough to be told about Xenos and the exploding spirits.  Similarly, Mormons do not find out about their cosmology until the have been members a year and go through the temple.  Family is barred from witnessing a Mormon wedding unless they are paid up for the full 10% of what they owe in tithing.  So if you lost your job and your daughter is getting married, tough shit--pay up or wait outside.  Nice. 

All religions are not the same. Period.  They may share some characteristics, but they are quite different in their approach to channeling the power of god for money.  That's what makes them interesting and also dangerous.  People's vulnerability in this area calls for more transparency.  Exploitation in any form is abuse and our government should be requiring anyone who collects your money for the power of god to flow into your life should at least have some accountability for how that tax-free money is spent. 

You and I are subsidizing all these churches and it pisses me off that the Mormons are using 4 Billion of it to build a Neiman-Marcus type elite shopping mall.  That's what the world needs religion for, right.  That's how we know they are really the Christians they claim to be.  Strange, I thought Jesus wasn't so much into materialism. 

England requires transparency and I suspect that the only reason we don't is because our government is afraid we might expect some of that from them.

Anagrammy

onan

Quote from: anagrammy on February 14, 2011, 02:07:46 AM
To think that cults are about thought is like thinking recreational drugs are about nutrition, or that pot smokers are the same as heroin addicts.  It is a gross oversimplification and, therefore, a distortion.  There is far more than thought going on in religion; there is exploitation and certainly abuse of power.

I just came back from a conference in St. George, Utah, where scholarly Mormons and exMormons were meeting to discuss DNA findings regarding the claims of the Book of Mormon and the geography of the Book of Mormon.  Kinda like talking about the location of specific hills in Narnia, but whatever.  It's a narrow interest and my friend and I had a great time in Dixie.

I hope all of you heard the recent show about Scientology.  The guest mentioned that he learned about the cosmology of Scientology from South Park.  He hadn't paid enough to earn Theta levels high enough to be told about Xenos and the exploding spirits.  Similarly, Mormons do not find out about their cosmology until the have been members a year and go through the temple.  Family is barred from witnessing a Mormon wedding unless they are paid up for the full 10% of what they owe in tithing.  So if you lost your job and your daughter is getting married, tough shit--pay up or wait outside.  Nice. 

All religions are not the same. Period.  They may share some characteristics, but they are quite different in their approach to channeling the power of god for money.  That's what makes them interesting and also dangerous.  People's vulnerability in this area calls for more transparency.  Exploitation in any form is abuse and our government should be requiring anyone who collects your money for the power of god to flow into your life should at least have some accountability for how that tax-free money is spent. 

You and I are subsidizing all these churches and it pisses me off that the Mormons are using 4 Billion of it to build a Neiman-Marcus type elite shopping mall.  That's what the world needs religion for, right.  That's how we know they are really the Christians they claim to be.  Strange, I thought Jesus wasn't so much into materialism. 

England requires transparency and I suspect that the only reason we don't is because our government is afraid we might expect some of that from them.

Anagrammy

So what's your point? Anyone that has thoughts that are different than yours should somehow be retrained? OK run with that. Life is complicated thats an oversimplification too but neither of us has the time to write a tech on how the world works. As far as DNA and mormons... stupid is as stupid does.

I get it you hate mormons--so all mormons need to be sent to thought retraining--to be better people. Sorry but your line of reasoning (and perhaps I am mistaken in your position) is just as cultish as theirs is. Free will always sucks when a person does something another doesnt like. I wanted my son to be an attourney he wanted to be an accountant. He's an accountant and happy... we both win. People are people and sometimes that sucks (reductive, I know).

You can keep this screed going if you like. I find most of your posts thoughtful and even this one has given me a bit of info that I didn't know. I do not like any position that suggests one group has a better answer than another even if I have a vested interest in the latter group.

As much as I would like it to be no one can make people better by forced intervention.

You want to fight corruption? I am right there with ya. You want to fight stupid... I dont have the time.















b_dubb

Quote from: Marc Knight on February 02, 2011, 09:58:41 AMHence, it can be posited that some people can be abusive because of their religious beliefs.


as unpopular and un-PC this will sound ... you're right.  i saw a Persian boy talking to his mother one day in the grocery store like she was a pack mule.  if i ever spoke to my mother that way, i would expect my family - and i'm including extended family - to take turns slapping me silly.  i come from a culture that values equality among everyone.  the boy came from a culture that views women as property

anagrammy

Let's lighten up boys, after all, we're into weirdness for the fun, right?  Nothing works better than a little mocking to bring things into perspective.  Scientologists have their Xenos and Mormons have their Kolob, and it is just rib-tickling to see what preposterous ideas an Elmer Gantry can slip down peoples' throats.

Here's a hilarious article on the plausibility of the Jaredite's ocean voyage in a wooden submarine (part of Book of Mormon).  A lot of Ken's comments ring true for Noah, so enjoy:

JAREDITE SHIP-BUILDING TECHNOLOGY
by Kent Ponder, Ph.D.
Copyright © 2006 Kent Ponder

        Many say that religious faith and reason are essentially incompatible -- that theological faith and sensible reason function as largely separate modes of mental and emotional behavior. LDS people, though, very often say that the Mormon faith is unusually reasonable and sensible.

        Is it? As a test, let's consider the Jaredites and their ocean-going barges, described in Ether of the Book of Mormon. If you've read it, did you do it with the "eye of faith," or with the "eye of reason" (and common sense)? The LDS eye of faith normally reads this account unfazed. But what if we read it with the eye of reason and common sense? What if we read it as if we were jury members evaluating a witness's testimony? Shall we give it a try?

        First, calmly think about what your own planning would entail if you were told that you and some friends would have to hand-build small, submersible boats in which you and your family would be taking a year-long ocean voyage, accompanied by flocks and herds of animals. Would you want to be confined to the inside of a small submersible boat for a year without planning how to care for and live with flocks and herds of animals on board, and related supplies -- for over eleven months?

        I don't know how acquainted you are with construction engineering, especially forms of shipbuilding. While I lived in Annapolis, Maryland (teaching at the US Naval Academy), I visited shipbuilding companies and studied the history of various historical shipbuilding techniques. I've also looked into Thor Heyerdahl's Kon Tiki and Ra construction as well as whaling ships at Mystic Seaport, the ex-whaling town in Connecticut, and so on. Ocean-going craft must be carefully designed and strongly built.

        As we pay close attention to Ether 2 and 6 in the Book of Mormon, we need to keep in mind that the Jaredite ships are described as built following the direct personal instructions of God himself. The LDS church has always taught that the Lord of the Jaredites' Old Testament times was Jehovah, the same deity described as having created the earth and all of the plants and animals, employing all the intelligent planning and management that that necessarily implies.

        In Ether 2, note the order of procedure:

        FIRST, for a water voyage prior to the ocean crossing itself, the Lord had instructed Jared and his brother to build boats in which, according to the account, their families and friends "did cross many waters," (2:6) carrying with them "seeds of every kind," flocks ("male and female, of every kind"), "fowls of the air", "swarms of bees," and "fish of the waters." (2:1-3)  According to the account, this boat trip was accomplished successfully.

        NEXT, four years later, the Lord again ordered the men to build similar boats "after the manner of barges which ye have hitherto built" (2:16), this time for an ocean crossing of nearly one year's duration. These boats, similar to the ones built four years earlier, are described as "small, and they were light upon the water, even like unto the lightness of a fowl upon the water" (2:16), with structural integrity such that they were "exceeding tight," top and bottom, entirely leakproof and air-tight ("tight like unto a dish") (2:17) because they were going to be "many times buried in the depths of the sea" (6:6) by "mountain waves" (2:24) during many violent storms. To be both (a) light ("like a fowl upon the water"), and (b) able to carry flocks and herds with food supplies for a year, the construction would obviously have to be carefully planned and organized because of the known challenges of combining lightness with strength (which still applies: boats, airplanes, bicycles and helmets, race cars, even suitcases, etc.).

        Following the Lord's specifications, the workmen built each boat with just one tight-fitting door, and no window or other opening. Construction of all eight boats was completed, per the Lord's personal instructions ("I have made the barges according as thou [the Lord] hast directed me." 2:18).

        NEXT, the Brother of Jared looked at the finished boats and wondered for the first time, Whoa! How will we breathe in these things? Specifically, quoting him:   ". . . I have made the barges as thou hast directed me. And behold, O Lord, we shall perish, for in them we cannot breathe, save it is the air which is in them; therefore we shall perish." (2:19) It was only then, that is, that he noticed that the boats were air-tight. (He also noticed they were totally dark inside: "O Lord, in them there is no light; whither shall we steer?" (2:19)
        Now let's pause to consider: How do the eyes of faith and reason interpret this account? The LDS eye of faith typically accepts the story unfazed. But consider the following "Eye of Reason and Common Sense" questions:

        1. Is it reasonable that men smart enough to build such watertight and airtight boats, following divine instructions, would do all the planning, material gathering and construction, and finish all eight before the question of breathing and seeing occurred to any of them? At that time (Tower of Babel period), working with hand tools, such a large project would have required at least months of labor. How could they not have noticed this problem for months? Remember that these shipbuilders were experienced. They had already built very similar people/animal/cargo-carrying boats just four years earlier.

        2. Stated most succinctly, how could shipbuilders build eight air-tight boats without noticing that they were air-tight?
Visualize men walking around inside boats "tight like unto a dish," with only one door that was to be kept closed at sea. Can you imagine them finishing all of the inside walls on all eight boats before noticing that it's suffocating in there?

        3. And what about seeing? Is it sensible that the workmen could have finished all eight interiors without noticing that there was insufficient light to see -- no windows? How could they have worked inside without seeing?

        When asked about the light problem, note that the Lord answered with a question: "What will ye that I should do that ye may have light in your vessels? For behold, ye cannot have windows, for they will be dashed in pieces." (2:23)

        4. "Dashed in pieces?" Dashable (shatterable) windows were not invented until thousands of years later, by a different civilization. How would Jared's brother have been able to understand the Lord's reply? Why would a deity have said something that would have had no meaning for Jared's brother?

        5. How many boats would you have to finish before noticing no air and no light? Could you finish all eight boats before that dawned on you? Especially if you had built several similar boats and traveled in one of them four years earlier?

        6. Is it sensible to finish even one before noticing? Do you know any carpenter who would do that?

        7. Would the Lord himself not think of the need to breathe and to see, and then wait until the end to be asked about these life-or-death issues?

        8. Would a person of common sense build even a mountain cabin, finishing all walls inside and out, before thinking to make a window hole, without thinking about breathing and seeing inside?

       9. Is it sensible that all of these shipbuilders, described as previously experienced in carrying flocks and herds of animals inside of boats, waited until the end to realize, Oh, wait! We forgot that our animals will need to breathe in here. And we need to see in order to feed them and clean up.

        Despite the common-sense requirements of structural integrity of ships that will be on the ocean carrying flocks and herds of animals and their feed for a year, all boats are finished, and then, as an afterthought, holes are hacked into that finished structure, one in the top and one in the bottom (because when it flops upside down in stormy seas, the bottom becomes the top).(2:20)

        10. Wouldn't the Lord think that the sensible time to plan and build windows for air and light was during construction, not waiting to hack holes after finishing all boats, as a "whoops!" reaction? Would a sensible deity or human do that?

        11. Is this not similar to teaching a work crew how to build automobiles for an extremely long trip without mentioning steering? Then, AFTER all the cars are built, the chief builder asks, "We have built all of the cars exactly as you have directed, but how shall we steer, for the wheels and axles are built so that they do not turn?" And the master planner replies, "Well, you can just make a hole in the dashboard and stick in a steering wheel. Then, when you need to steer, just turn the wheel."

        12. Is it fair to ask how this differs from the following? Mormon elders, after following the Lord's exact instructions on building and painting the Celestial Room in the Salt Lake Temple, discovering that they've painted themselves into a remote corner, pray, "We have done as thou hast instructed us, oh Lord, but thy instructions have resulted in our painting ourselves into a corner." What would you think if the answer were, "Behold, ye shall make a hole in the granite temple wall, and after ye have escaped, ye shall stop the hole."

        Does the following improve the faith/reason problem, or worsen it?

        "When thou shalt suffer for air thou shalt unstop the hole and receive air." (2:20)

        13.If  you were taking your family on a car trip, would you tell them, "Wait until you notice you're suffering for lack of air, THEN open the window." Isn't it the case that people who need air often don't notice it until too late, because oxygen shortage has caused them to pass out? Don't we read that people who suffocate often don't know it's happening? Pilots at altitude undergoing oxygen deprivation experience the same hazard. Their awareness drops below the level needed to know they lack "air."

        14. How is the Jaredite level of planning and knowledge different from that of men described in current news articles, who carelessly suffocate illegal aliens by transporting them in unventilated trucks? (And that problem occurs in just a few days, not a year.)

        If we ask ourselves whether the following is sensibly reasonable, what is the answer?.

        "They did lay snares and catch fowls of the air." (Also see 6:4: "fowl that they should carry with them") Birds are the first animals to die from inadequate oxygen, canaries in coal mines being a famous example.

        15.How were the birds to notify Jared that they "suffered for air?"

        For the reasoning person, it gets worse.

        People and animals obviously keep breathing at night, while sleeping.

        16. What if they "suffer for air" while everyone is asleep? Is that a good time to need to "unstop the hole?"

        17. Did the Jaredites have "Hole Unstoppers" on guard while everyone else slept? Did the unstopper continually check to be sure that sleeping people and animals, especially birds, were still breathing?

        How well does the eye of reason and common sense fare with the following problem?

        " . . . unstop the hole . . . "  Also, "thou shalt make a hole in the top and also in the bottom." (2:20) Note that it says the hole, that is, a hole, as in one hole. (The hole at the bottom clearly doesn't count except when the ship flops upside down in high seas.) Now picture in your mind traveling with flocks of flatulent sheep and herds of flatulent goats and cattle) in a boat with ONE functioning air hole.

        18. What about air movement for ventilation?

        19. How would air enter and exit the same single hole supplying the entire barge/boat?

        There's a related problem: Air doesn't readily enter a closed space. Why not? Because the space is already full of air -- In the Jaredites' case, warmer, body-heated air that exerts greater-than-outside pressure thus resisting incoming air. People taking car-trips with kids partially open at least two windows for air movement.

        20.In these Jaredite boats, reported as designed by the highest divine intelligence, why is there no cross ventilation for three hundred and forty-four days? The eye of reason tries to visualize people and animals struggling to vent their body gases and heat through just one hole.

        Now let's apply the eye of reason to general animal care:

        21. How much does even one goat, sheep or cow eat in a year?

        These are grazing animal, but they can't graze on the ocean; and they don't eat fish. Their grasses and grains have to be stored on board. A goat eats 2 - 3 pounds/day. Even a pony eats about 8 pounds/day. Let's sensibly use 3 pounds X 344 days. That's 1,032 pounds of feed per animal. That's a lot of bulky weight to lash down to prevent it crashing around when the ships roll, and even flip upside down.

        22. How do you fit 1,000 pounds of feed per animal in the small boats, along with people, flocks and herds of animals, and birds?

        23. And how about carrying a year's supply of drinking water for each person and animal? They couldn't drink ocean water, and in boats of the type described they couldn't gather significant rain water. How could they load and carry sufficient fresh water?

        Even the most illiterate people have learned how important ventilation is for food items, especially without refrigeration. People and animals exhale moisture with every breath. The numerous animals couldn't be taken outside to urinate and defecate. Such a year-long, high-moisture, low-ventilation environment breeds bacteria, yeast, fungus and molds, and rots food.

        24. So, what about food spoilage?

        Could it get worse?

        The voyagers are reported to have sung praises to the Lord day and night. (6:9)

        25. How likely does day-and-night singing and praising seem after months of close confinement in small boats with urinating, defecating, flatulent flocks, herds and fowls, with only one air hole per drum-tight boat?

        Could it get worse?

        Ether describes heavy seas (" . . . they were many times buried in the depths of the sea, because of the mountain waves which broke upon them" 6:6). So these boats were crashing around under water, occasionally flipping upside down (thus the need for a hole in the bottom which could be opened as an air hole when the boat flopped over).

        26. Can you visualize adults, children, flocks and herds, rocking, tossing and flipping over, traveling that way for a year? Could you ride for 344 days and nights with your children on a boat, repeatedly buried in the depths of the sea with flocks and herds crashing over each other, with urine-soaked "litter box" material spilling into their food as the ship flopped upside down?

        27. How would you pour all the urine and feces out of one hole -- for a year?

        Could reason and common sense be additionally battered?

        " . . . fierceness of the wind . . . the wind did never cease to blow towards the promised land while they were upon the waters; and thus they were driven forth before the wind." (6:6 - 8)  This testifies to three major factors: (a) wind force, (b) wind constancy, (c) wind direction.  "And thus they were driven forth, three hundred and forty and four days upon the water."

        28. If the wind was (a) constant, (b) strong, (c) always toward the promised land, how could this force require 344 days?

        But wait! Could the shape of the boats, the front and back "ends thereof were peaked" (2:17), have presented insufficient flat surface at the back for the wind to blow against, causing the trip to last longer?

        29.But then why would an intelligent divine designer choose such an inefficient shape?

        Could it get worse for the sensible eye of reason?.

        " . . . terrible tempests which were caused by the fierceness of the wind." (6:6)

        30. Beyond the fact that a tempest is not caused by a fierce wind, but rather IS a fierce wind, why would an intelligent deity think that so much wrenchingly violent motion, even overturning stored goods, animals, their bedding and feed, be an intelligent thing to do?

        31. Wouldn't an exhorbitant amount of water in the flocks' and herds' drinking containers be lost as the boats pitched, rolled and flipped over?

        32.How did the Jaredites mop and dry this constant sloshing spillage for a year?

        33. How could they have carried enough fresh water to offset the constant sloshing spillage?

        34. Could you keep your family food and belongings together with that kind of flailing around?

        Were the people and animals secured by ropes (analogous to seatbelts)? Today, even seatbelted people in slow-speed vehicle rollovers are often seriously injured. But at least their vehicles then stop. Ocean storms, though, last for hours or days. The Jaredites and their animals would have been thrown around (a) many times longer and (b) in a vastly larger interior than in a car rollover. The sliding and falling collisions of people, animals, food and water supplies would often have gone on for hours or days at a time. And if tied down, in a rollover they'd have been left hanging from the ceiling.

        The food supplies, and especially the water supplies, would have had to be lashed down to prevent lethally crushing slides into people and animals.

        35. But then, when the boat turned upside down, how did the people access the food and water, which would now be secured to the ceiling?

       36. How would the Jaredites have been able to prevent or deal with orthopedic injuries and concussions as animals and people crashed into each other?

        37. When the boats were upside down, did the people and animals just walk around on what had been the ceiling, outside of pens?

        "And thus they were driven forth, three hundred and forty and four days upon the water. And they did land upon the shore of the promised land." (6:11,12) That is, the account directly implies that all the boats landed at approximately the same time.

        38. Is it sensible that after 344 days of such violent tossing and sloshing, the boats would have arrived on essentially the same day? How could eight ocean-going vessels tossed by violent storms maintain near-identical speeds, remaining near each other over such an extremely long time period?

        39. Would the "eye of reason" perceive the ocean trip in Ether to be a fitting example of famed LDS general authority and historian Elder B.H. Roberts' notable assessment of the Book of Mormon "as if it were a tale told by a child, with utter disregard for consistency " ? (Studies of the Book of Mormon, p. 251)

        The eye of faith apparently does not perceive the Jaredite ocean voyage to be a nutty fictitious story.

        40. How does the eye of sensible reason see it?

        It seems to me that all 40 of the above questions are honestly, fairly and sensibly stated.

- Kent Ponder

tl;dr

No religion survives scientific scrutiny.  It's like people who ruin action films by getting pedantic about the fire rates of the helicopter guns.


anagrammy

Quote from: b_dubb on February 16, 2011, 01:41:03 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/20/theater/20mormon.html?_r=1&hp

here ya go Anagrammy. you're welcome

Yeah, thanks a heap b_dubb, I am planning to go depending on how big or if I get an income tax refund.  Some people here get upset with me for dissing the Mormon secrecy, lies and abuses, but I see myself as an equal opportunity religion comic.  To me there is great entertainment in the weird beliefs people don't consider weird because we grew up with them.  Like speaking in tongues, transubstantiation, ritual clothing and step-on-a-crack-you-break-your-mother's-back superstitious nonsense that people experience on Sunday and then show up on Monday as a software developer, or an engineer, or a politician with a very rational comefrom.

The compartmentalization is just fascinating.  I respect people that believe and ask them to respect my right to not believe and to (gasp) mock, rant or whatever, as my God-given right (teehee).

Anagrammy

onan

Quote from: anagrammy on February 16, 2011, 02:47:16 PM
Yeah, thanks a heap b_dubb, I am planning to go depending on how big or if I get an income tax refund.  Some people here get upset with me for dissing the Mormon secrecy, lies and abuses, but I see myself as an equal opportunity religion comic.  To me there is great entertainment in the weird beliefs people don't consider weird because we grew up with them.  Like speaking in tongues, transubstantiation, ritual clothing and step-on-a-crack-you-break-your-mother's-back superstitious nonsense that people experience on Sunday and then show up on Monday as a software developer, or an engineer, or a politician with a very rational comefrom.

The compartmentalization is just fascinating.  I respect people that believe and ask them to respect my right to not believe and to (gasp) mock, rant or whatever, as my God-given right (teehee).

Anagrammy

I completely agree with everything you said in the post I quoted. I know it is something special and you must be so relieved to know I agree ;).

The degree of dissassociation that I run into with contemporaries is staggering. I will be assessing a patient with a symptom of hyper-religiosity and I will confer with a peer that also has a degree in religion. That peer will agree that the patient is not well, yet a few hours later will be discussing some biblical story about a visitation from the lord as straightfaced as saying water is wet.

I don't get it. Perhaps I don't want to get it; maybe it is some form of surrender... no clue. I often ask those of the spirit based belief system: what is the difference in religion and fantasy... most of the time I am left with no response other than a glare.

coastfan

Onan I think you are onto something with your surrender theory. To me, religion is basically bullshit that comes in different flavors that a mass of people agree to believe in for the sake of social cohesion or fulfillment of personal/psychological/emotional needs. Coming from a christian church background myself, I can say that it's hard but not impossible to resist the subtle pressure around you to become religious, and easy to espouse religious views or join a church and go casually in order to get the pressure off of you. You learn to change the subject. Politely.

Religion is something where you have to take a leap of faith. There's no proof for the claim that god exists. If there was, then there would be no need to believe. You don't "believe" in physical reality. It just exists.

anagrammy

Onan, I am relieved that you agree because I respect your view as a mental health worker.  I have a paranoid schizophrenic son who also has bipolar and it has forced me to confront in real life what I learned in college--that a diagnosis of delusional (crazy) is situational--a given behavior is mental illness in one culture and accepted behavior in another.  An interesting idea when you're sitting in cultural anthropology class, but recently we have some very interesting examples hitting us from the newsrooms.

An example I am still cycling through my head is the case of the kidnapping of Elizabeth Smart.  The case took like eight years to get to court and the real reason is that the setting was Utah culture.  The attorney for Brian David Mitchell, the kidnapper, was ready to defend him with the expected defense of insanity  HOWEVER ......how can you say a man who hears commands from god is crazy when you are living in a subculture where worthy priesthood holders are told from pulpits every Sunday that they, too, can hear the voice of god just like Joseph Smith?  AND where the leaders claim to have a "Special Witness and Annointing" to their positions which includes a ritual in which they confirm they have had their "calling and election (as apostles) made sure (cinched the deal for heaven) or god will kill them first?  Oh the cog dis circling the drain on that one!!!

On my own previously fervent belief system--people have asked me how I ever ...like what made you...how did you discover... people can hardly even phrase the question, so seldom has it been asked, which is, "How did you ever wake up and realize that your imaginary friend might not be real?  My answer is, Eckhart Tolle helped me.  He suggested there were two voices in my head, one of which might not be real.  That was intriguing.  Then he said that one was the annoying stream of consciousness that just almost never shuts up.  Yeah, I know that one, I thought.  The other is the voice that sometimes exclaims, "Where did that thought come from? Are you nuts?"
Who is the voice judging the other voice?  The answer is, of course, that the stream of consciousness is just thoughts firing from the subconscious, from random connections, it is not you.  The voice that comments and judges is your Being.  You might say, the sane one.

You know from your professional life that Being can be tragically broken in a psychotic break.  When the sane one becomes insane, there's great confusion and an inability to sort the random information from the pertinent.

Well, lo and behold.  Once an illusion is revealed, it can never be unrevealed and I began living in my own reality from that moment on, not needing the approval of others, recognizing I had a wise woman inside, some would say.  It was only a matter of time before I didn't have to grovel before an imaginary "friend" and beg for favors.  I could focus on being the best person I could,according to values that I chose, and be confident that my emerging spirit would attract good people and good things to me.

No one could have told me that my previous black-and-white, I'm-on-God's-side-and-he-will-punish-evil-and-get-even-for-me, was a negative projection driving from my life the peace I sought in Christianity.  Like one other poster said, once you no longer have to examine your conscience and confess your sins (reinforcing your bad person image), you can stop examining and judging other people and focus on living in the now so your life doesn't go by without you living it.  You're not suffering for some imagined future paradise.  If everyone worked on making the word a paradise today, we wouldn't need to cry out to god to save us.  Like the bumper sticker I saw the other day said, "I was born ok the first time."

Anagrammy

onan

Whenever I see a court procedural fiction or otherwise I am always befuddled with the "swear to tell the truth, so help me god". I mean in all candor isn't that rather less than honest on its face? Compound that with a defense of not being in right mind and the problem grows logrithmically.

To make a quick edification on hearing thoughts, if I may. Generally there are three types of voices in our heads: 1. reflective thought... "did I just miss that turn?" which also includes "what was that sound?" "wow my mouth tastes funny" "its really nice today". 2. intrusive thoughts  "everyone knows I got fired... everyone knows I got fired... everyone knows I got fired... everyone knows I got fired..." which also include negative criticisms and destructive commands and these thoughts are repetitive with little ability to distract. 3. voices that we can distinguish from ourself because they seem to be from outside us. this group is audio hallucinations.

Much to my surprise when first monitoring people recieving proper medication, when the intrusive thoughts or the hallucinations were alleviated many patients claimed a sense of loss much like a companion that was now gone. I sometimes think there is a correlation there with the supposed spiritual enlightenment crowd.

Silent

Quote from: anagrammy on February 16, 2011, 05:11:21 PM
An example I am still cycling through my head is the case of the kidnapping of Elizabeth Smart.  The case took like eight years to get to court and the real reason is that the setting was Utah culture.  The attorney for Brian David Mitchell, the kidnapper, was ready to defend him with the expected defense of insanity  HOWEVER ......how can you say a man who hears commands from god is crazy when you are living in a subculture where worthy priesthood holders are told from pulpits every Sunday that they, too, can hear the voice of god just like Joseph Smith?  AND where the leaders claim to have a "Special Witness and Annointing" to their positions which includes a ritual in which they confirm they have had their "calling and election (as apostles) made sure (cinched the deal for heaven) or god will kill them first?  Oh the cog dis circling the drain on that one!!!

I like this example, it's a good observation.  I've thought about these kind of things a lot and can only come to one conclusion.  That being that there's a lot of people out there who claim to believe but really don't.  Between pressures from family, friends, and most of our culture it's difficult for many people to even admit it to themselves maybe.  I think that description would fit most of the people I meet on a daily basis.  If they really believed in an almighty god they certainly don't lives their lives like God is watching them all the time.  Maybe they are Fox Mulders of religion.


Blue Stones

I especially enjoy the Mormons, some of the funniest religious stuff ever! Magic underwear, awesome, the Garden of Eden in Missoui, Hah!  Indians are Jews- Oye vey! That's it's cool to have multiple wives, especially when your wife finds you in (love ) with the maid- fast think'n Joseph. But the best one is that men get their own Planet when they pass in to the next dimension.  But ofcourse, that ones's true- you get what yu look for and can imagine. -How else are you gonna find out 400 b'zillion hot fudge sundaes are tedious?

Blue Stones

Well a - maybe Indians are Jews, look at the fine fur and jewelry their wives wear, 'of course they haven't written many musicals and show tunes, but some of the fantastic imaginations of their fiction writers, Shababa! That bit about -oh no we are the chosen people, Dad loves us more than you is a little childish, but hey- everyone loves best the heavenly dictum to have a lot of wives- now my dad had all the trouble anybody should ever have in one lifetime with just one wife. Any active Mediterrainian type guy knows - have one wife with all the credit cards and stuff she wants- and then you can go annoy some girls-

anagrammy

Welcome, Blue Stones, that's landing with two feet!  Yeah, it's a kicker all right.  I just heard another Scientology celebrity is going to blow (their word for leave the cult), so stay tuned.

Anagrammy

Eckhart Tolle!  This week I spent hours on the Rick Ross web site reading about how he is a dangerous LGAT mind manipulator.

anagrammy

Quote from: Do you think it was angels? on February 17, 2011, 12:02:19 AM
Eckhart Tolle!  This week I spent hours on the Rick Ross web site reading about how he is a dangerous LGAT mind manipulator.

Tks-- I am going to Rick Ross RIGHT NOW, love me a mind manipulator!

Anagrammy

anagrammy

OK, I'm back and here's my report:  This sample of one of Tolle's books is called "drivel."  Before I get into it, let me just say that I have not been manipulated in any way by the books Tolle authored.  He teaches against materialism with an eastern religion slant.  Tolle has not started a religion, nor does he accept the term "guru" to describe himself.  He sells stuff, yes, but he doesn't collect tithing or build temples or any of that nonsense.  He teaches a way to be in the world that teaches you to rely on identifying with the best in yourself and avoiding ego.  Let's look at the "drivel:"


Read an Excerpt from A New Earth  (QUOTED HERE FOR EDUCATIONAL AND ANALYTICAL PURPOSES)
By Eckhart Tolle 

In his insightful look into humanity's ego-based thinking, Eckhart Tolle provides practical teachings for waking up to a new, enlightened mind-set. If you're seeking a more loving self and a more loving planet, A New Earth has the tools to begin your transformation.
--------------------
Is humanity ready for a transformation of consciousness, an inner flowering so radical and profound that compared to it the flowering of plants, no matter how beautiful, is only a pale reflection? Can human beings lose the density of their conditioned mind structures and become like crystals or precious stones, so to speak, transparent to the light of consciousness? Can they defy the gravitational pull of materialism and materiality and rise above identification with form that keeps the ego in place and condemns them to imprisonment within their own personality?

Learning to be less materialistic and more focused on higher values is something our whole society could use. No drivel here.

The possibility of such a transformation has been the central message of the great wisdom teachings of humankind. The messengersâ€"Buddha, Jesus, and others, not all of them knownâ€"were humanity's early flowers. They were precursors, rare and precious beings. A widespread flowering was not yet possible at that time, and their message became largely misunderstood and often greatly distorted. It certainly did not transform human behavior, except in a small minority of people.

One can hardly argue that the distortion of the message of the world's greatest spiritual leaders and the resulting wars/deaths is unimportant or meaningless.

Is humanity more ready now than at the time of those early teachers? Why should this be so? What can you do, if anything, to bring about or accelerate this inner shift? What is it that characterizes the old egoic state of consciousness, and by what signs is the new emerging consciousness recognized? These and other essential questions will be addressed in this book. More important, this book itself is a transformational device that has come out of the arising new consciousness. The ideas and concepts presented here may be important, but they are secondary. They are no more than signposts pointing toward awakening. As you read, a shift takes place within you.

We see what happens when ego trumps substance in George Noory and the photo-of-Noory-laden Coast website. There is no question that greed plus ego equals the American financial crises. The idea that a new consciousness may be the 2012 change the Mayans predicted has been discussed on Coast numerous times.  What kind of change are they talking about?  This book gets specific, a good thing in the world of New Age generalities.

This book’s main purpose is not to add new information or beliefs to your mind or to try to convince you of anything, but to bring about a shift in consciousness, that is to say, to awaken.

How is this mind manipulation?  You choose to read about the possibility of changing to a higher way of living voluntarily, having only paid for the book.

In that sense, this book is not "interesting." Interesting means you can keep your distance, play around with ideas and concepts in your mind, agree or disagree. This book is about you. It will change your state of consciousness or it will be meaningless. It can only awaken those who are ready. Not everyone is ready yet, but many are, and with each person who awakens, the momentum in the collective consciousness grows, and it becomes easier for others. If you don’t know what awakening means, read on.

Here's where we understand why some would call these ideas "drivel."  If you are not ready or curious about this, it has no appeal.  Like a fresh pizza in front of a person who has just eaten a turkey dinner.  Not happening.

Only by awakening can you know the true meaning of that word. A glimpse is enough to initiate the awakening process, which is irreversible. For some, that glimpse will come while reading this book. For many others who may not even have realized it, the process has already begun. This book will help them recognize it. For some, it may have begun through loss or suffering; for others, through coming into contact with a spiritual teacher or teaching, through reading The Power of Now or some other spiritually alive and therefore transformational bookâ€"or any combination of the above. If the awakening process has begun in you, the reading of this book will accelerate and intensify it.

I had absolutely no idea that there was any point to his books other than to learn some interesting information about New Age stuff which I'd made fun of pretty regularly (Shirley MacLaine...really?)

An essential part of the awakening is the recognition of the unawakened you, the ego as it thinks, speaks, and acts, as well as the recognition of the collectively conditioned mental processes that perpetuate the unawakened state. That is why this book shows the main aspects of the ego and how they operate in the individual as well as in the collective. This is important for two related reasons: The first is that unless you know the basic mechanics behind the workings of the ego, you won’t recognize it, and it will trick you into identifying with it again and again.

Once I learned that ego rose and fell within me in response to situations happening, I could feel it in my desire to revel in conflict (for example).  And later there would be remorse, like when you drink too much and say something you regret.  I must have been ready because I found it absolutely fascinating.  But then, I've always had great interest in self improvement and have been a religion jumper.  I know, not everybody's cup of tea.   

This means it takes you over, an imposter pretending to be you.

A rather awkward way to say this, but I certainly don't want to be THAT person when I hear it happening, the Anagrammy who speaks from ego.

The second reason is that the act of recognition itself is one of the ways in which awakening happens. When you recognize the unconsciousness in you, that which makes the recognition possible is the arising consciousness, is awakening. You cannot fight against the ego and win, just as you cannot fight against darkness. The light of consciousness is all that is necessary. You are that light.

By teaching me to anthropomorphize my ego as the worst "me" rising in response to a perceived insult (instead of an impulse to say something hurtful), I am able to deny it "food" or "life" by refusing to identify with it, refusing to give it power/a voice, etc.  I see this as a tool rather than a manipulation.  Ironically, once I was ready to starve my ego, it seemed to atrophy and I became more satisfied with my life, and that life got better and better (more peace, less pills, better health), little by little.

Less ego and greed in the world means more peace.  Not exactly drivel. 

Anagrammy



I'd never read Tolle and didn't have much opinion before reading Rick Ross.

I do not like attacks against the ego, however. This is universally preached by ego-freak narcissists who run cults. Just as they preach celibacy (for peons like us) as they carry on with a harem of teens.

No. I'm keeping my ego.

onan

Quote from: Do you think it was angels? on February 17, 2011, 04:41:31 AM
I'd never read Tolle and didn't have much opinion before reading Rick Ross.

I do not like attacks against the ego, however. This is universally preached by ego-freak narcissists who run cults. Just as they preach celibacy (for peons like us) as they carry on with a harem of teens.

No. I'm keeping my ego.

No one has a truck big enough to carry it away my friend  :D


anagrammy

Darryl Vickers being interviewed by GNoory on Feb 15, Hour 3,

VICKERS:   Islaamic extremism is kind of...evil.

GNOORY:   Any religious extremism is evil.

VIDKERS:  Yes, but... Islaam claims the right to convert by force and to kill people who convert away.  That's just wrong.  And what about that poor girl who had a fatwa put on her and they were all set to kill her when they found out she was a virgin.  Their solution was to rape her before they killed her, so they would not be shedding "innocent" blood.


The idea that all religions are equally corrupt or equally good is ridiculous and is the very political correct blindness that keeps us from having intelligent conversations about what it means to be free to practice your religion vs. the right of people not to be murdered for violating the beliefs of the religion of others.

Anagrammy

The General

Quote from: anagrammy on February 19, 2011, 04:35:09 AM
Darryl Vickers being interviewed by GNoory on Feb 15, Hour 3,

VICKERS:   Islaamic extremism is kind of...evil.

GNOORY:   Any religious extremism is evil.

VIDKERS:  Yes, but... Islaam claims the right to convert by force and to kill people who convert away.  That's just wrong.  And what about that poor girl who had a fatwa put on her and they were all set to kill her when they found out she was a virgin.  Their solution was to rape her before they killed her, so they would not be shedding "innocent" blood.


The idea that all religions are equally corrupt or equally good is ridiculous and is the very political correct blindness that keeps us from having intelligent conversations about what it means to be free to practice your religion vs. the right of people not to be murdered for violating the beliefs of the religion of others.

Anagrammy
Amen!  (pun inteneded)
Moral relativism has totally erased the meaning of the word EVIL, and that has had a more detrimental effect on our ability for moral clarity and clear thinking than anything. 

I am not a moral relativist, or a cultural relativist, but a religious one, because if a religion is called to account for every interpretation of its scripture, they are all bizarre.

What folks do is compare the nicey-nice sects of religion A to the hardcore sects of religion B, and find the differences they're looking for, to satisfy their prejudices.

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