How to Help the Egyptians

[b_dubb]

The only dipshits that ever nuked a country were Americans, remember?

our dipshit decision to use atomic weapons in Japan prevented a ground war that would've cost hundreds of thousands of lives had we staged an D-Day type invasion of Japan.  and prior to the beach landings and ground war ... there would've been additional bombing.  like the bombing that turned Tokyo into a smoldering pit.  so ... horrible as they were .. and they were horrible ... war always is ... in the long run the use of overwhelming force prevented a much greater loss of human life.


and ... in anticipation of further anti-American rhetoric ... the Japanese started it when they bombed Pearl Harbor.  we didn't start the wars in the Pacific or the European theater

[Lena]

I am merely anti-moronic. I hope you don't consider Americans to be morons in General, cause I don't.

I expected nothing less than you parroting your leaders propaganda and apologies.

December 7, 1941 is and was ’A date which will live in infamy.’, but not for the bombing of Pearl Harbor, rather for the deception and the mis-guidance used by the Government and Franklin D. Roosevelt. In a purely artificial chess game Roosevelt sacrificed over 2400 American Seamen’s lives, thanks to his power as Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces.
The US forced Japan into war, and the attack on Pearl Harbour was known in advance to your President.
The american public was simply betrayed as usual, just another time more, to appeal to your patriotism, which is so nicely manipulable.

The USA froze Japanese assets and embargoed Japan's oil after Japan invaded French Indochina (Vietnam.) And more importantly, the USA gave Japan an ultimatum to pull out of French Indochina before even talking about lifting the embargo. There was no other oil available on the world market at the time, it was all spoken for due to the needs of the World War Two which was raging at the time. Japan had a choice between pulling out of French Indochina and hoping the USA was good to its word, doing nothing and watch their factories and economy come to a halt when their stockpiled oil ran out, or seize the Dutch oil fields in Indonesia. While I'm not defending Japan's imperial policies, there really isn't any doubt that the USA's ultimatum and oil embargo was designed to goad Japan into a war with the USA. Whether that constitutes 'forcing" Japan into war is debatable, but it's certainly understandable that many in Japan think so.

One perspective is given by Vice Admiral Frank E. Beatty, who at the time of the Pearl Harbor attack was an aide to the Secretary of the Navy Frank Knox and was very close to President Franklin D. Roosevelt's inner circle, with perspicuous remarks as:

    "Prior to December 7, it was evident even to me... that we were pushing Japan into a corner. I believed that it was the desire of President Roosevelt, and Prime Minister Churchill that we get into the war, as they felt the Allies could not win without us and all our efforts to cause the Germans to declare war on us failed; the conditions we imposed upon Japanâ€"to get out of China, for exampleâ€"were so severe that we knew that nation could not accept them. We were forcing her so severely that we could have known that she would react toward the United States. All her preparations in a military wayâ€"and we knew their over-all importâ€"pointed that way."

Another "eye witness viewpoint" akin to Beatty's is provided by Roosevelt's administrative assistant at the time of Pearl Harbor, Jonathan Daniels; it is the telling comment about FDR's reaction to the attack - "The blow was heavier than he had hoped it would necessarily be. ... But the risks paid off; even the loss was worth the price. ..."

What this man said implies absolute foreknowledge of the attack, and that's just one of many. FDR knew they were coming, even ordered 2 carriers away despite the already lackluster protection with fighter-planes. He wanted the base to get hit by the Japanese in order to get the American public behind a justified war, which they would not have done so easily if the US had struck first officially.
(remember Gulf of Tonkin?)
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/pearl_harbor.htm

Also, I understand that you need to calm your guilty conscience with BS like "dropping 2 nukes on Japan saved many lives". After all the US are the "good guys", right? :

[MV/Liberace!]

forget whether or not the bombs in japan saved lives or were morally right or wrong.  a better use of your time is to consider the american mindset at that time... a mindset capable of unleashing such misery on our fellow man.


there is plenty of evidence to suggest america did not need to drop the bomb.  i get it.  the point is, i think the bomb was more about retribution than anything else, and for me, retribution is not too difficult to understand or accept as a reason.  the american people HATED the japs for what they did at pearl harbor.  they HATED the japs for what they did to american POWs.  americans hated their culture, their appearance, their food, their clothing, their military, and their general existence.  our hatred was utterly visceral.  i routinely talk to my grandmother about WW2, and i'd recommend you find someone in their 80s or 90s to talk with about it.  even in 2011, almost 70 years later, my 84 year old grandmother still speaks with a tempered rage when discussing the japanese.  intellectually, she understands today's japan is not THAT japan... but the rage is still there.  i can sense it.


while it is true there were elements of the japanese government making overtures of surrender through the russians in the period leading up to the dropping of the bombs, there also were equally powerful and exceedingly vocal forces within the japanese government/military who simultaneously were singing a very different tune publicly because they just could not believe the americans would be willing to absorb a land invasion.  what they didn't know was that the americans would not need to.  worst of all from the american perspective was the fact that the japanese were FAR from offering an unconditional surrender. 


i know a man named paul who is 90 years old.  he was on a ship headed for the japanese mainland when word came to abort mission and stop the ship.  the bomb had been dropped.  he says it was the happiest moment of his entire life.  up to that point, he'd been floating about the pacific in a dense fog of depression and inevitability.  from the time they learned they'd be invading japan to the time they were told to abort, he lost 40 pounds.  it was a really, really awful thing for a small town kid from missouri to endure.  is paul evil for having been relieved by that?  or the thousands of others just like him?  or their families?


it's nice to sit here with 70 years of historical separation from these events and confidently pontificate about what was right and what was wrong as if you're an arbiter of truth, justice, and human decency with your finger on the pulse of something the rest of us would see but for our childlike ignorance... but it's all shit, if you don't mind my saying so.


hindsight is a great drug.  it's made many a dummy feel like brain surgeons.


the fact is, these were very different times 70 years ago, and you can not grasp the anxiety... the environment... the fatigue... the smells... the pain... without having lived through it.  condemning the america of 1945 for dropping those bombs is an easy position to take.  it's like suggesting you're against throwing babies from trees.  well... good for you.  way to stick your neck out there.  it requires some real historical objectivity and personal wisdom to consider the difficult.

[Lena]

if you want me to understand the american mindset, I ask you to understand the German mindset at that time as well. They probably just wanted to create the EU a few years early, right? Actually I have more sympathy for the Germans than the Americans, because they at least fought in and around their homeland, as a reaction to unbearable conditions of the Versailles "treaty" and massive economic blockades, while the US government tried as hard as they could to take part in a war abroad.

[b_dubb]

i won't criticise the German people for being pissed off about the Treaty of Versaille.  i think Woodrow Wilson was correct that the treaty was too punitive.

i like Germans.  they have awesome nude beaches

[sampson2625]

How many protests are going on in the world right now? It's like a chain reaction of protesting! How will this all play out?

[Marc.Knight]

How many protests are going on in the world right now? It's like a chain reaction of protesting! How will this all play out?

It won't stop until George Noory steps down.

[b_dubb]

Grant Lee Buffalo - America Snoring

i love a good protest song

also ...


John Prine -Your Flag Decal Won't Get You Into Heaven Anymore

completely unlike the other but ... ohhhhh so appropriate

[aldousburbank]

It won't stop until George Noory steps down.

I was wondering when somebody was going to make the connection.

[MV/Liberace!]

merged with the egyptians thread.

[b_dubb]

forget whether or not the bombs in japan saved lives or were morally right or wrong.  a better use of your time is to consider the american mindset at that time... a mindset capable of unleashing such misery on our fellow man.

imagine that you've been fighting the Japanese ... island hopping ... seen scores of men just like you being destroyed in unspeakable horror ... seen the POW's freed from prison camps clinging to life ... the reality of invading Japan would've been too much to consider.  we would never have been able to get Japan to surrender unconditionally without the use of nukes.  i don't think revenge enters into the decision. it was about saving American lives

[MV/Liberace!]

imagine that you've been fighting the Japanese ... island hopping ... seen scores of men just like you being destroyed in unspeakable horror ... seen the POW's freed from prison camps clinging to life ... the reality of invading Japan would've been too much to consider.  we would never have been able to get Japan to surrender unconditionally without the use of nukes.  i don't think revenge enters into the decision. it was about saving American lives

in large part, i think you're right.

[The General]

Egyptian democracy is a BAD IDEA.  Egytptian democracy will most likely mean a rise to power for the Muslim Brotherhood.  More radical throwback Muslims.  We should be supporting the current government, it may not be perfect but it's better than what will happen there with an overthrow. 

This is almost an exact replay of the revolution in Iran that ousted the Shah and brought in the Ayatollah Khomeini.  The Shah was better than what followed with Islamic radicals.  And Obama is on the wrong side of this revolution, just like Carter undermined the Shah of Iran.  This is a huge mistake.  We should be supporting our friends in the government of Egypt, not the revolutionaries.

Just following up...  apparently I was right.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/02/world/middleeast/02salafi.html?_r=3&hp

[b_dubb]

This is almost an exact replay of the revolution in Iran that ousted the Shah and brought in the Ayatollah Khomeini.  The Shah was better than what followed with Islamic radicals.  And Obama is on the wrong side of this revolution, just like Carter undermined the Shah of Iran.

the Shah was installed by the US.  the Iranians never liked him. or wanted him.

the transition to whatever will follow Mubarak's government won't be smooth.  and the end result may not be ideal.  there was a lot of naive idealism when Egyptians began their revolt.  i think a lot of people (at least in the USA) thought that Egyptians would create a "Democracy" like that in America.  clearly that's not what is happening

[The General]

Welcome back to Sharia law, Egypt!  Welcome back to the 1300's!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_hBIc_pkMQ

Brought to you by "Egyptian Democracy" and the "Arab Spring."

[ziznak]

Welcome back to Sharia law, Egypt!  Welcome back to the 1300's!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_hBIc_pkMQ

Brought to you by "Egyptian Democracy" and the "Arab Spring."

whoa whats up with this dude???

oh and let the wife beatings begin!!!

LiveLeak.com - Iranian Kicks the crao out of his Wife for Interrupting Him
no wonder the annunaki nuked the place...

[The General]

As of today, both sides of the Suez Canal are now controlled by Islamic throwback regimes.  It's time to get energy independent!  It's our only choice. 

[Zircon]

As of today, both sides of the Suez Canal are now controlled by Islamic throwback regimes.  It's time to get energy independent!  It's our only choice. 

Finally, somebody said something pertinent to the thread. I wholeheartedly agree with you sir. But, unfortunately, it will take time to "ramp up" so we're dependent upon them until then.

[Zircon]

The Obama administration will be remembered as the ones who 'lost' Egypt if we don't support Mubarak soon.
This is a total repeat of Carter losing Iran to radicals.  This is huge, the ramifications are going to be devastating.

General, "losing Egypt" (Mubarak) was the point of the venture. So in that, this administration and the elitists who control our government (past, present and future) were successful.

Tao, we couldn't care less about democracy anywhere in the world. We were perfectly happy to work with dictatorial tyrannies for decades (Saddam for one) as long as they knew the extent of their leashes. He pulled on his seeking independence from us and it cost him and his regime dearly. Egypt has now engaged in its first election by the people (or so it is advertised) since its creation over 5,000 years ago. The General needs to be reminded that no former satellite/leashed ally is going to be very appreciative of the USA once it gets to flex its muscles - however disorganized. We benefited for a long time with these dictators - now the "chickens have come home to roost" as we've heard mentioned a few times. Even if you don't like the person who said it (I don't by the way), he is correct in regards to the Middle East.

[The General]

Unfortunately for the average person in the middle east, when their governments 'flex their muscles' it usually involves the throats of the citizens. 

The problem at the heart of the matter is this:  Democracy in the West equals freedom (at least on paper).  Democracy in the Middle East equals voluntary servitude.  The good people of Egypt just cast a vote, and with it said "Please oppress us, we like it."  The dictators that we supported in the past were no angels, but at least we recognized that they were a necessary evil for keeping people of a 14th century mindset in line.  There was certainly more freedom in Egypt under Mubarak than there will be under Mohammed Morsi.  And there will likely be little in cooperation between Morsi and the West.

[ziznak]

I'd hate to bring up the monroe doctrine  but we seriously shouldnt have to depend on these halfwit nations or their resources in this day and time... fuck oil... lets move on to some other source of energy like hey... water... maybe booze??? I don't really care if I'm speeding to work I just care if I get there... electricity can do it... I really don't fucking care about the middle east, Israel especially, and any muslim nation even more... FUCK THEM... lets pay attention to the problems at hand like all the starving americans... we can nuke the assholes when they step out of line later

[The General]

It's time for cars that run on natural gas.

[MV/Liberace!]

The good people of Egypt just cast a vote, and with it said "Please oppress us, we like it."

i think a lot of people disagreed with me when i said it on this episode of my podcast, but the arab populations of the world neither want nor understand democracy/freedom as we understand it, and we should stop attempting to shoehorn our belief system into theirs.  it will never work.  the only thing arabs appreciate or understand is a firm hand, and they demonstrate that time and time again when given the opportunity to do so.

[Mind Flayer Monk]

I think we will find the muslim brotherhood loves money and commerce as much as we do. We have plenty of American and international corporations in Dubai and we can work together.

No change in the future.

The real danger is the muslim brotherhood rewriting the constitution come the next election when the people realize the MB promised them a mountain and gave them a compost heap.

[The General]

I think we will find the muslim brotherhood loves money and commerce as much as we do. We have plenty of American and international corporations in Dubai and we can work together.

Dubai is unique in the Arab world.  They aren't the throwback types that just took over Egypt.  They are a very modernized and wealthy country with a diverse economy.  The people of Dubai have religious freedom and probably the highest standards of living in the Arab world.  In fact, about 75% of the population isn't even Arab, they're Asian.  So to say that Egypt is going to somehow now become a new Dubai is out of nowhere.  There really isn't another county that we could compare to Dubai as far as international trade partners in that part of the world go.

No change in the future.

I think you'll find that this will change a lot of things.  They will be more friendly with Iran and more antagonistic with Israel.  They will become increasingly militaristic.  They will trade more with China and Russia but give us the cold shoulder.  The people will get the Islamic oppression that they apparently desire.  Tourism from the west will wane.  They will flex the military muscle of the military that we largely helped build.  Poverty and ignorance will continue to stifle the country in general.  This is not good for anyone.  We propped up Egypt for a long time, and now that power has gone rogue.

The real danger is the muslim brotherhood rewriting the constitution come the next election when the people realize the MB promised them a mountain and gave them a compost heap.

I think the real danger is World War III.  I'm just looking way into the future here.  The more the Arab Spring advances by retreating into the dark ages, the more hostile the whole region will become, and eventually something has gotta give.  I'm not happy about it, I just see that as the reality.  It's very sad, and I wish we could stay uninvolved, and I hope we do unless absolutely necessary.  Egypt has fallen into the hands of bad people.

[Mind Flayer Monk]

Dubai is unique in the Arab world.  They aren't the throwback types that just took over Egypt.  They are a very modernized and wealthy country with a diverse economy.  The people of Dubai have religious freedom and probably the highest standards of living in the Arab world.  In fact, about 75% of the population isn't even Arab, they're Asian.  So to say that Egypt is going to somehow now become a new Dubai is out of nowhere.  There really isn't another county that we could compare to Dubai as far as international trade partners in that part of the world go.I think you'll find that this will change a lot of things.  They will be more friendly with Iran and more antagonistic with Israel.  They will become increasingly militaristic.  They will trade more with China and Russia but give us the cold shoulder.  The people will get the Islamic oppression that they apparently desire.  Tourism from the west will wane.  They will flex the military muscle of the military that we largely helped build.  Poverty and ignorance will continue to stifle the country in general.  This is not good for anyone.  We propped up Egypt for a long time, and now that power has gone rogue.I think the real danger is World War III.  I'm just looking way into the future here.  The more the Arab Spring advances by retreating into the dark ages, the more hostile the whole region will become, and eventually something has gotta give.  I'm not happy about it, I just see that as the reality.  It's very sad, and I wish we could stay uninvolved, and I hope we do unless absolutely necessary.  Egypt has fallen into the hands of bad people.

Dubai and Egypt. This comparison is not out of nowhere, but I didn't give my reasoning.  The Egyptian economy is very diversified unlike many Arab oil economies. Egypt has large industries in textiles, shipping, engineering/construction, and tourism which makes it very similar to Dubai but with far more resources. The skills people have to earn a living are very similar.
The Asians in Dubai are largely Muslim coming from India/Pakistan and Bangladesh.

As far as China and Russia, I feel its far more likely that the Egyptians will play the three of us off against each other and take the more advantageous offers.

We have trained their military, but we have trained it to fight against Libya-so to fight armor/hardened targets with jets. They would get decimated by naval power and the military could lose all power in weeks with no way to get it back.

The military is still separate from the muslim brotherhood.

[The General]

Interesting.  We shall see.  It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.  I'm a 'glass half empty' kind of guy when it comes to world affairs.  I'm also that way when it comes to domestic affairs.  I guess I'm just that way.  But I am not optimistic about what this means for Egypt and the world.

[DangerousBlossom]

i think a lot of people disagreed with me when i said it on this episode of my podcast, but the arab populations of the world neither want nor understand democracy/freedom as we understand it, and we should stop attempting to shoehorn our belief system into theirs

I think this would be a good policy for the whole world.  If another country wants (or can only establish) a monarchy, a dictatorship, a democracy, a theocracy, or a bunch a warring tribes -- that is their business.  We have no right to interfere.  And people generally resent the interference of outsiders even if it means their societies are more prosperous, more peaceful, and run more smoothly.

As for the Middle East and oil: they are perfectly willing to sell it.  That is the source of their wealth, after all.  If the U.S. would stop participating in the wars of the war, we would be saving billions.

[onan]

Egypt's new president to pick woman, Christian VPs


http://edition.cnn.com/2012/06/26/world/meast/egypt-politics/index.html

[MV/Liberace!]

Egypt's new president to pick woman, Christian VPs


http://edition.cnn.com/2012/06/26/world/meast/egypt-politics/index.html

i just learned from this story that it is illegal to insult islam OR christianity in egypt.