Author Random stupid things on your mind. Post them.  (Read 2052429 times)

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Random stupid things on your mind. Post them.
« Reply #510 on: March 03, 2011, 11:52:45 AM »
Kind of on the Tucson shooting/Civilization Going To Hell In A Bucket thing, there's an editorial of sorts at Reality Sandwich titled, "The Ultimate Oxymoron: Industrial Civilization and Mental Health."  I don't know anything about this author or the "sacred activism" theme which the article apparently arises from, but I thought it was interesting enough to clip 3 paragraphs here.  Full article at-  http://www.realitysandwich.com/ultimate_oxymoron_industrial_civilization_and_mental_health

When I was a psychotherapist in private practice in the 1990s, I learned that 80% of mental health clinicians who had spent precious years and resources training to become psychotherapists would leave that field within five years of entering it. I have no idea what the statistics are for this phenomenon in 2011, but I do know that given America’s economic meltdown and the inability of states, counties, and cities to fund mental health services and the inability of individuals to pay for it out-of-pocket, the psychotherapy profession is becoming an increasingly thankless one.

As the collapse of industrial civilization exacerbates, I anticipate epidemic levels of depression, suicide, and indiscriminate violence. Human beings blindsided by society’s and their own unraveling will be desperate to be heard, comforted, and reassured that they are not alone. Anyone who is collapse-aware and even a little bit emotionally stable may become the “therapist of the moment.” This will not look like two people sitting quietly in a tidy office and talking for 50 minutes. It may look like a group of human beings sitting in the street or in a community garden all night discussing how they will eat the next day, and the “fee” may be a bag of potatoes or a bottle of vodka. Such individuals will definitely behave in an “uncivilized” manner, but they probably will not be mentally ill.

Mental health necessitates taking a stand in the face of madness in order to live and love in relatedness with other earthlings--whether human or non-human. The paradigm of industrial civilization is inherently mad and proliferates mad people. Many of us have been called “crazy” for the past decade because we have named the madness of civilization and where it is taking us. Today, we may be perceived as “less crazy” since most of what we forecasted is now everyday, tangible reality--just as we said it would be. As industrial civilization accelerates its death spiral, our work is to imagine a new world of connectedness and to become a new human species. Measured by the criteria of the American dream turned nightmare, we may not only not be deemed crazy, but may be perceived as living and learning in ways that resonate with an aspect of the psyches of fellow earthlings that they are coming to recognize as essential to their emotional and physical health. Heinberg’s “seeming intangibles of life” could also be called “the sacred,” and they have been systematically marginalized by modernity for millennia. The sacred must now constitute the foundation on which any alternative to industrial civilization is constructed, for therein lie the fundamentals of sanity and wholeness.

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« Reply #511 on: March 03, 2011, 12:15:52 PM »
Kind of on the Tucson shooting/Civilization Going To Hell In A Bucket thing, there's an editorial of sorts at Reality Sandwich titled, "The Ultimate Oxymoron: Industrial Civilization and Mental Health."  I don't know anything about this author or the "sacred activism" theme which the article apparently arises from, but I thought it was interesting enough to clip 3 paragraphs here.  Full article at-  http://www.realitysandwich.com/ultimate_oxymoron_industrial_civilization_and_mental_health

When I was a psychotherapist in private practice in the 1990s, I learned that 80% of mental health clinicians who had spent precious years and resources training to become psychotherapists would leave that field within five years of entering it. I have no idea what the statistics are for this phenomenon in 2011, but I do know that given America’s economic meltdown and the inability of states, counties, and cities to fund mental health services and the inability of individuals to pay for it out-of-pocket, the psychotherapy profession is becoming an increasingly thankless one.

As the collapse of industrial civilization exacerbates, I anticipate epidemic levels of depression, suicide, and indiscriminate violence. Human beings blindsided by society’s and their own unraveling will be desperate to be heard, comforted, and reassured that they are not alone. Anyone who is collapse-aware and even a little bit emotionally stable may become the “therapist of the moment.” This will not look like two people sitting quietly in a tidy office and talking for 50 minutes. It may look like a group of human beings sitting in the street or in a community garden all night discussing how they will eat the next day, and the “fee” may be a bag of potatoes or a bottle of vodka. Such individuals will definitely behave in an “uncivilized” manner, but they probably will not be mentally ill.

Mental health necessitates taking a stand in the face of madness in order to live and love in relatedness with other earthlings--whether human or non-human. The paradigm of industrial civilization is inherently mad and proliferates mad people. Many of us have been called “crazy” for the past decade because we have named the madness of civilization and where it is taking us. Today, we may be perceived as “less crazy” since most of what we forecasted is now everyday, tangible reality--just as we said it would be. As industrial civilization accelerates its death spiral, our work is to imagine a new world of connectedness and to become a new human species. Measured by the criteria of the American dream turned nightmare, we may not only not be deemed crazy, but may be perceived as living and learning in ways that resonate with an aspect of the psyches of fellow earthlings that they are coming to recognize as essential to their emotional and physical health. Heinberg’s “seeming intangibles of life” could also be called “the sacred,” and they have been systematically marginalized by modernity for millennia. The sacred must now constitute the foundation on which any alternative to industrial civilization is constructed, for therein lie the fundamentals of sanity and wholeness.

It is simply being wholistically and systematically displaced, to the other side of the planet.  It is unsustainable, however.
 
This is an interesting excerpt.  Economically speaking, as the middle class deteriorates here, and increases in Asia, the cost of psychotherapy here is becoming problematic for the average person.

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« Reply #512 on: March 03, 2011, 12:49:37 PM »

This is an interesting excerpt.  Economically speaking, as the middle class deteriorates here, and increases in Asia, the cost of psychotherapy here is becoming problematic for the average person.

What the article invoked in me was a bit of survivor's guilt perhaps.  The problem of individuals who fall through the health care cracks, whose intimates cannot intercede successfully.  Maybe we civilians expect too much from the system.

I lost a dear friend to suicide recently.  Yes, we knew he was suffering mental anguish.  Our decade long reach-outs somehow seemed but to prolong his despair, but many of us did what friends do- invite him, call, visit.  Apparently no longer able to deal with his inner turmoil (to us, his exterior situation was not harsh or constrained in any negative way), he ended it with a pistol, alone, having shunned weeks of contact.  I still think, wonder maybe, what the difference would be if I just stopped by more often.  I never just went over with a sixer of Dos Equis, always stopping on my way somewhere, short hellos.  But what if I had just called more?

This morning, my 6'5" boxing team 20 year old asked me if I had seen the Jared Loughner video where he's burning the flag.  "No, I can't stand to see that crap."
"You should dad, it's crazy.  He's wearing a trash bag and stuff!"
"Son," I told him, "If any friend of yours ever posts a video where he's burning a flag and wearing a trash bag, I hope you have enough compassion to gather some friends and have a talk with him, and whup his ass, 'cuz that ain't right."
"Don't worry dad, if that doesn't scream ass whipping, I don't know what does."  I'm so proud of him!

There are times when I'm getting stressed out in the brain department, physically exhausted, and heading for no good, when I wish somebody would be kind enough to just take a big stick and hit me over the head with it.  Or just set me down with a nice cold open glass bottle of Coca Cola and a lit, fine cigar I suppose.  How's that for Big Pharma?


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« Reply #513 on: March 03, 2011, 12:54:35 PM »
What the article invoked in me was a bit of survivor's guilt perhaps.  The problem of individuals who fall through the health care cracks, whose intimates cannot intercede successfully.  Maybe we civilians expect too much from the system.

I lost a dear friend to suicide recently.  Yes, we knew he was suffering mental anguish.  Our decade long reach-outs somehow seemed but to prolong his despair, but many of us did what friends do- invite him, call, visit.  Apparently no longer able to deal with his inner turmoil (to us, his exterior situation was not harsh or constrained in any negative way), he ended it with a pistol, alone, having shunned weeks of contact.  I still think, wonder maybe, what the difference would be if I just stopped by more often.  I never just went over with a sixer of Dos Equis, always stopping on my way somewhere, short hellos.  But what if I had just called more?

This morning, my 6'5" boxing team 20 year old asked me if I had seen the Jared Loughner video where he's burning the flag.  "No, I can't stand to see that crap."
"You should dad, it's crazy.  He's wearing a trash bag and stuff!"
"Son," I told him, "If any friend of yours ever posts a video where he's burning a flag and wearing a trash bag, I hope you have enough compassion to gather some friends and have a talk with him, and whup his ass, 'cuz that ain't right."
"Don't worry dad, if that doesn't scream ass whipping, I don't know what does."  I'm so proud of him!

There are times when I'm getting stressed out in the brain department, physically exhausted, and heading for no good, when I wish somebody would be kind enough to just take a big stick and hit me over the head with it.  Or just set me down with a nice cold open glass bottle of Coca Cola and a lit, fine cigar I suppose.  How's that for Big Pharma?

 
You're never able to enter here.  All a person can do for another is attempt to nudge them in the right direction, from the outside.

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« Reply #514 on: March 03, 2011, 01:22:05 PM »
I still think, wonder maybe, what the difference would be if I just stopped by more often.  I never just went over with a sixer of Dos Equis, always stopping on my way somewhere, short hellos.  But what if I had just called more?
suicide is utterly counter to every self protection mechanism that nature and upbringing have instilled in us.  it ignores every instinct or fear for the purpose of "alleviating" something greater than all of the aforementioned stabilizers.  for one to consciously... deliberately... explicitly bypass all self preservation instincts implies an incomprehensibly powerful urge over which external influences can have very little to no effect.  if an individual has incrementally but decidedly evolved (or devolved) to a state of mind consumed with bypassing all of those protection mechanisms we walk around with from birth, there is no number of heineken bottles or phone calls that can overcome it.  it's natural to ask questions of yourself in search of an answer after a friend commits suicide... but there's nothing one can gain from it.


suicide makes me angry.  while i understand the sickness associated with it, i feel like it's the ultimate act of selfishness.  it doesn't consider the pain to be felt by friends and loved ones... only self.  it punches the time-clock before the whistle has blown... which i think is something the universe forbids any of us to do.  i have a friend whose dad committed suicide when she was a teenager.  i think we were in the 8th grade when he did so.  try telling me this did not ruin her life.

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« Reply #515 on: March 03, 2011, 01:38:59 PM »
I have tried to come at this issue from several ways. Nothing seems to make sense. Marc and Aldous, I read what you have written and I think it is true and yet I think it is such a shallow perspective that it gives me pause.

Yes our economy is in the shitter... I suppose. But I really doubt that loughner really had a handle on that aspect. Did he obsess about it maybe but obsession does not mean a clear understanding.

I think that we in the US have a particularly skewed perception of our value. I was talking with a friend of mine that lives in Long Island. He made the statement that his skill set was worth 190,000 a year. And he fully believes that is the truth. I have a friend in Huston that has a very similar job and he makes about half that and again fully states that is what he is worth. I would speculate that someone in indonesia with a similar skill set would make even less. The point is geography seems to be an important part of the imagined value. But if the skill were to make 10 bricks an hour why would that be more rewarding in NY than Tx? I dunno I am still not really at the point I want to make.

We live in a world that makes sense to us only in the nearby when we use our coping skills to understand things outside of the local I think our constructs start to decay. A few years ago I happened upon the image on the net of the starving child and the vulture. If you have not seen it, just do a google with those terms it will pop right up. The fellow that took that picture committed suicide 6 months after taking it. I think the reason he did was the true global madness surrounded him and he had no way out.

Some months ago I was seeing a young woman still in high school. Very bright, very pretty, and acutely suicidal. While talking with her she asked the question: "Why was she here?"... to make sure you are safe I responded and her retort was: Whats the point? The question although simplistic cut through so much of the bs that I was stunned. I had no answer for her. To some greater aspect in this world there really is no point. Better car, better house, better job, even who has the better thouight at some point... the question doesn't have a good answer.

So the middle class moves to what is now a third world country... it is still a condemnation of the model itself. Until the global community sees value in humanity and not the products it provides we are still on a sinking ship.



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« Reply #516 on: March 03, 2011, 01:52:47 PM »
I have tried to come at this issue from several ways. Nothing seems to make sense. Marc and Aldous, I read what you have written and I think it is true and yet I think it is such a shallow perspective that it gives me pause.

Yes our economy is in the shitter... I suppose. But I really doubt that loughner really had a handle on that aspect. Did he obsess about it maybe but obsession does not mean a clear understanding.

I think that we in the US have a particularly skewed perception of our value. I was talking with a friend of mine that lives in Long Island. He made the statement that his skill set was worth 190,000 a year. And he fully believes that is the truth. I have a friend in Huston that has a very similar job and he makes about half that and again fully states that is what he is worth. I would speculate that someone in indonesia with a similar skill set would make even less. The point is geography seems to be an important part of the imagined value. But if the skill were to make 10 bricks an hour why would that be more rewarding in NY than Tx? I dunno I am still not really at the point I want to make.

We live in a world that makes sense to us only in the nearby when we use our coping skills to understand things outside of the local I think our constructs start to decay. A few years ago I happened upon the image on the net of the starving child and the vulture. If you have not seen it, just do a google with those terms it will pop right up. The fellow that took that picture committed suicide 6 months after taking it. I think the reason he did was the true global madness surrounded him and he had no way out.

Some months ago I was seeing a young woman still in high school. Very bright, very pretty, and acutely suicidal. While talking with her she asked the question: "Why was she here?"... to make sure you are safe I responded and her retort was: Whats the point? The question although simplistic cut through so much of the bs that I was stunned. I had no answer for her. To some greater aspect in this world there really is no point. Better car, better house, better job, even who has the better thouight at some point... the question doesn't have a good answer.

So the middle class moves to what is now a third world country... it is still a condemnation of the model itself. Until the global community sees value in humanity and not the products it provides we are still on a sinking ship.

 
#1.  Because the cost of living is proportionately higher in New York than in Texas and Indonesia.  Therefore, it is not more rewarding, just proportionate.
 
#2.  I also hope to live long enough to see this type of sociological evolution, but I think it will not be manifested for another 100 or so years.

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« Reply #517 on: March 03, 2011, 01:59:23 PM »
suicide makes me angry. 

Suicide makes us realize just how powerless we are. As do so many other calamities. I have heard so many positions on what is the root cause of self harm but one no one ever wants to concede is that of free will. Before anyone jumps to thinking I am supportive of self harm... I am not. It is antithetical to my core values. But I think many rush to conclusions without truly understanding certain reasonings.

For full disclosure I have seen suicide attempts with extremely serious gestures only to find out the motivation was someone not getting their way and I mean not being allowed to use their computer. I have also seen terminally ill who have attempted suicide because they did not see the point in going on. Two completely different scenarios both with the same basic intervention. Is that the correct strategy? I dunno I put it out there... you guys tell me.

At some point self protection becomes more than just about the physical. And depending on philosophical beliefs our spiritual/contemplative personas are more us than the muscles, bone, and skin that keep us in our seats. So again I dunno, but the issue of suicide is not just about wanting a quick way out. I think that is what some find so discomforting, not the loss of someone but that someone's rejection of what most of us hold as precious.


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« Reply #518 on: March 03, 2011, 02:03:43 PM »

 
#1.  Because the cost of living is proportionately higher in New York than in Texas and Indonesia.  Therefore, it is not more rewarding, just proportionate.
 

And that is part of my question. The land mass of Long Island does not require a higher fee than Hustion. Rather we place some atificial value upon it, that by it's very nature places things above people. I know it is pollyannish (sp) but I think it is true.

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« Reply #519 on: March 03, 2011, 02:15:09 PM »
i don't know that the value placed on living in NY is artificial.  the amount of housing is limited yet the demand remains high because of all the STUFF that happens there.  personally living in a rat maze holds no appeal but if i were a huge theater geek or was really picky about my bagels (or if i ate bagels at all) then i'd be more inclined to think a move to NY would be a good thing

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« Reply #520 on: March 03, 2011, 02:29:19 PM »
suicide makes me angry.  while i understand the sickness associated with it, i feel like it's the ultimate act of selfishness.

Yes, in this case much of my angry was about how in seeming comparison to my circus, his life wasn't that tough.  Finances were also not an issue, although not that this would justify, but things were pretty wide open for him in this, and most other context.  I understand this does not necessarily convince the inner imbalance of any other possible redemption.

I am reminded of another tale with some relevancy, hopefully interest:
I'm working in the garden quite early one morning when a friend of my 2o yr pulls up in his car, tunes railing.  He's got a happy meal for my son and he's knocking at his door.  "Hey Mark, he's not awake yet guy!  If you want, come hang in the garden for a while!" I hollered his way.
"Thanks Mr. B., hey what's up?"  I could smell liquor before he pulled within 10 feet of me.  "What's up with you man, are you driving around all night drunk and stuff?"
"Oh, it was my birthday last night Mr B., just turned 21!"
"Well congratuFuckinLations!"  I sez to him, asshole that I am, "Now what the fuck are you going to do now that you can buy legally?  Kill somebody in a wreck?  Or yourself?  Think about it dude because I've got a dead aunt because of a drunk guy your age, and I don't like it!  Don't be driving around any of my family drunk ese, I don't care that I do like you..." and on and on.
"Allright Mr. B. I get, I shouldn't be doing that."
"Damn straight not guy.  And wisen up that alcohol's really not that fun if you don't have anything else going."
"Well Mr. B, what were you doing when you were my age?"
"I was working in the mines man, shift work.  Also, I was getting tail, I wasn't driving around by my lonesome on my birthday chet- you hear me?"
"Yeah, but you were partying and stuff, tripping out, c'mon man, right?"
"Look here," I sez, I sez to him, "Back in the day the drinking age here was 19, so I did my 'partying' in my early teens, when it was a challenge you know, and fun because you have to hide it, and drink out in the desert and all that.  So when I turned 19 I figured out how boring it could be.  Yeah, I went through the acid age, and I got along fine with some toke, but I was seriously, more interested in taking 3 or 5 days in the way out and tripping out on the mountains and the canyons, and the fact that I could enjoy, and survive this, if I stayed clear, sober.  And if I didn't, I could die.  And if there's a God, that's where you'd find It.  That to me is getting high man, and it'll make you a stronger, better person."  And so on.
"Yeah, I'm into hiking.  And I've been going to church lately..."
"Well, I don't know about any church," I told him, "But if it's a church that preaches against drunk driving then that's great.  Good, keep going.  Just don't drink and drive man because you'll make me want to report or hit you.  And if you do end up drinking and driving, then damn sure only hurt yourself, because if you hurt anybody else and survive, I'm going to come slap you, or worse, remind you of this conversation over the little phone they give you to talk into when you're so happy to have a visitor in jail!  You hear me?"
"That's cool, that's cool Mr. B., I won't."  He was laughing but I had just given him some fairly stern shit and he kind of politely made his way away from the his buddy's crazy old gardener dad.

Less than 3 weeks later the kid had gotten buzznangoed in some club, taken a friend's car, sped through reds, cops throw tack-strips, dude's car flips right into the Air Force base property.  This morning, my son left on one of his regular visits to see the kid, who is now a paraplegic.  A few weeks after the accident, the local friendly Jehova's Witnesses stopped by and thanked me for "Trying to help Mark", as this was the church he had struck up with, apparently.  I told them that while I'd like to accept their commendation, I clearly in no way had done anything but talk to myself and in fact, I almost felt bad for giving the kid a hard time, seeing as he was just going too fast on stupid street to hit the brakes anyway.  Why mess with his head?  He didn't hurt anyone else, really, so I don't have to slap him.  And he tells me that I did help somehow, but he's certainly not doing any hiking.  But it just goes to show... something, I'm not sure.  You can help some people some of the time, but you can't lead a horse away from slaughter?

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« Reply #521 on: March 03, 2011, 02:42:26 PM »
i don't know that the value placed on living in NY is artificial.  the amount of housing is limited yet the demand remains high because of all the STUFF that happens there.  personally living in a rat maze holds no appeal but if i were a huge theater geek or was really picky about my bagels (or if i ate bagels at all) then i'd be more inclined to think a move to NY would be a good thing

Just because there is a complicated algorithm to place a value does not mean that someone is worth more having similar skill sets. The fact we base monetary value on skill sets at all is somewhat problematic. Just sayin.

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« Reply #522 on: March 03, 2011, 03:03:31 PM »
We live in a world that makes sense to us only in the nearby when we use our coping skills to understand things outside of the local I think our constructs start to decay. A few years ago I happened upon the image on the net of the starving child and the vulture. If you have not seen it, just do a google with those terms it will pop right up. The fellow that took that picture committed suicide 6 months after taking it. I think the reason he did was the true global madness surrounded him and he had no way out.

Some months ago I was seeing a young woman still in high school. Very bright, very pretty, and acutely suicidal. While talking with her she asked the question: "Why was she here?"... to make sure you are safe I responded and her retort was: Whats the point? The question although simplistic cut through so much of the bs that I was stunned. I had no answer for her. To some greater aspect in this world there really is no point. Better car, better house, better job, even who has the better thouight at some point... the question doesn't have a good answer.

So the middle class moves to what is now a third world country... it is still a condemnation of the model itself. Until the global community sees value in humanity and not the products it provides we are still on a sinking ship.

Onan,

I am impressed and stilled by these observations and your excellent reasoning, or position.  Impressed, because of the potential profundity of what might be shared on a backwoods forum, and stilled, by knowing your reasonableness cannot answer  the young woman's question.  Neither can I.  If there's any answers anywhere, I've got to believe they're bottom up ones, from stuff like we dealing with at work and home, and discussing here.  Something you mentioned in an earlier exchange, about finding our best futures through exploratory interchange of challenging concepts while not having a known outcome?  I can't see any aid for the sinking ship, other than, right now, the small exchanges of things not easily or comfortably discussed, such as what we have here.  Thanks for it.

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« Reply #523 on: March 03, 2011, 03:56:35 PM »

Onan Said:

Quote
Until the global community sees value in humanity and not the products it provides we are still on a sinking ship.


And I AGREE.  But this has been the hue and cry of the majority of humanity, in one form or another - throughout recorded history.   I don't think we can stop trying to achieve this goal - but the satisfaction must come from the effort.  I don't hold out much hope for actual achievement.  Life-rafts, anyone?

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« Reply #524 on: March 03, 2011, 04:45:43 PM »
Very interesting discussion, gentlemen.  I especially appreciate the realizations you share that our value in dollars is a fiction since it is relative geographically, depending on the cost of living, demand for the skill set and other factors that have nothing whatever to do with your value as a human being.

As Mike pointed out, suicide is selfish and I pointed that out to my children as they entered their teens.  Suicide transfers your pain to your loved ones and ruins their life.  Recently, one of my daughters told me she remembers this every time she has suicidal thoughts. Gasp!  How could such a brilliant mind in a beautiful body ever even consider such a thing. It shocked me.  But her reasons were not petty, rather as the young lady Onan interviewed, "What's the point?" She asks the great question thinking people have pondered since we crawled out of caves, "What IS the meaning of life?"

For people who are suffering (even if the suffering is illusory), it seems to boil down to the question of who would care.  That's why my statement stayed with my child.  It's easy to think that no one cares about you.  It's harder to think that you don't care about anyone. 

I have some experience with suicide, having a schizophrenic son who made 13 attempts over ten years, while living with me.  I have had him chase me in a parking lot when I took away his drivers license so he couldn't buy beer.  I have driven his semi-conscious body to/from the hospital while taking minor children to/from school in the front seats.  I have seen blood in the bathtub, a body in the ravine, he has jumped from a moving car, and even stabbed himself in the chest prior to someone's birthday dinner in a restaurant. 

Nothing ever made a difference until I started talking about the people HE loved.  I could see why he might not want a life of no career, no wife, no children, all drugs and supported housing, employment, food.  It's not the life anyone dreams of.  I want my son to live no matter how shitty his life is by my standards. Might that be considered selfish?

The question then becomes, as Onan put it so well, about free will.  I found a way to get him to choose life despite the pain by channeling his thoughts into not hurting the people he loved. Selfish? Maybe.  How do I know that not hurting his family is worth the continual torment of denigrating voices in his head.  The drugs help--they help a lot.  I told him I admire him for the struggles he endures, without complaining, voices in his head morning, noon, and night.  Plus all the problems everyone else deals with. 

He's done well overcoming this horrific illness, or you might more accurately say, coming to terms with it.  And he's happy, handsome, well-groomed and satisfied with the thrill of an occasional visit to the steakhouse and a new CD for his collection.  He plays his music, watches TV, interacts minimally with others in the hotel where he lives, has dinner at Mom's every Sunday and goes to family birthday parties. Occasional shopping trip.  Tries to get a good night's sleep. That's about it.  Is that a life worth living?  Who's to say?

I asked his psychiatrist why he hadn't tried to kill himself in more than ten years now.  He said that schizophrenics stabilize after 30 years of age, if they have family support.  Without family support, they are as unstable as patients in their twenties. 

So it appears that a life worth living is made meaningful by the people we care about and the people who care about us.  And when that fails, there's pets.

Anagrammy

PS.  Thanks for your insights, Onan, it is delightful to find interesting conversation about something substantial.

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« Reply #525 on: March 03, 2011, 05:34:51 PM »
Sorry for the disheartening tone of the last few posts... I have a 7th degree black belt in buzzkill.

Thanks for the kind words Ana... and you too Aldrous.

And to bring it back to some relevance to the forum, the reason I find this topic so intriguing has a tie in to the original C2C. Although Art would most likely be considered libertarian and have the basic belief that it is best for people to help themselves. I found his show to almost always connect us (and perhaps this is just a conceit) in a way that only ideas mattered and the sharing of them made us all richer. That cognition was somewhat of a paradigm shift for me. Although I had a similar experience in my youth the consistent presentation of Art and those that explained, questioned, and challenged to me helped me appreciate people, ideas, and values on a level significantly different than my normal experience.

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« Reply #526 on: March 03, 2011, 06:32:29 PM »
suicide is a symptom of an illness.  a momentary lapse of reason, hope, etc.  this illness reaches deeper than flesh and blood

as much is it might piss you off and leave you grief stricken you can't take suicide personally

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« Reply #527 on: March 03, 2011, 07:19:53 PM »
as much is it might piss you off and leave you grief stricken you can't take suicide personally
Tell that to the beautiful young children of my friend Milt who selfishly killed himself over his wife's affair.

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« Reply #528 on: March 03, 2011, 07:28:44 PM »
Smile everyone.



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« Reply #529 on: March 03, 2011, 07:31:22 PM »
The General is right on this one.  People DO take suicide personally.  The eighth grader whose Dad offs himself (no matter what the reason) thinks this:

"My own father did not love me enough to stick around to raise me.  He didn't love me enough to spare me this awful pain.  I am worthless ... my Dad didn't think life was worth living, why should I." The suicide stats for the children of suicidal parents are off the charts, right Onan?

That kind of legacy is very personal.

Anagrammy

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« Reply #530 on: March 03, 2011, 07:39:11 PM »
The General is right on this one.  People DO take suicide personally.  The eighth grader whose Dad offs himself (no matter what the reason) thinks this:

"My own father did not love me enough to stick around to raise me.  He didn't love me enough to spare me this awful pain.  I am worthless ... my Dad didn't think life was worth living, why should I." The suicide stats for the children of suicidal parents are off the charts, right Onan?

That kind of legacy is very personal.

Anagrammy

Sadly yes. Both genetics and environment have staggering effects on children that survive parental suicide... for decades if not for their lifetime.

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« Reply #531 on: March 03, 2011, 08:06:52 PM »
Here's what you tell somebody that is depressed and/or suicidal if you ever get the chance.

GET OVER YOURSELF.  You think your life is so bad you need to kill yourself?  You think you are a victim?  You think your life is so tragic?  Read Elie Wiesel's "Night" and thank God you have it so good.  Volunteer at a children's cancer hospital and earn yourself the right to suck air.  Get some god damned GRATITUDE for this wonderful gift of life that is so fragile, so rare, so beautiful.  Each of us is a miracle.  SOME PEOPLE DON'T GET THE CHANCES YOU HAVE.  Suck it up and stop being a self-obsessed victim of your own stupid vain pity.  Your ancestors didn't eat dirt, survive the black plague, flee oppressive governments, and sacrifice everything so that you could throw it all away because you think you have it so bad.  Stop crying, you have it good!

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« Reply #532 on: March 03, 2011, 08:33:39 PM »
Here's what you tell somebody that is depressed and/or suicidal if you ever get the chance.

GET OVER YOURSELF.  You think your life is so bad you need to kill yourself?  You think you are a victim?  You think your life is so tragic?  Read Elie Wiesel's "Night" and thank God you have it so good.  Volunteer at a children's cancer hospital and earn yourself the right to suck air.  Get some god damned GRATITUDE for this wonderful gift of life that is so fragile, so rare, so beautiful.  Each of us is a miracle.  SOME PEOPLE DON'T GET THE CHANCES YOU HAVE.  Suck it up and stop being a self-obsessed victim of your own stupid vain pity.  Your ancestors didn't eat dirt, survive the black plague, flee oppressive governments, and sacrifice everything so that you could throw it all away because you think you have it so bad.  Stop crying, you have it good!
oh if only... tough love doesnt work and yes we have way too many spoiled rotten, self indulgent, only for themselves peolple out there. Everytime I talk to a person that is or has recently tried to hurt themselves because someone didnt love them enough I think of the approximate 36000 children starve to death every day. But some of those you describe will never ever go to a place that has actual suffering... and that is just how it is.

Titus said it best in his standup "get down off that cross, take the wood, build a bridge, and get over it." Good luck with that. Suicide makes many of us angry. Because we do not understand. Heck we deal with shit... how come they cant? I dunno maybe they were moolycoddled, maybe they were abused, or neglected. Maybe they are just pains.

We don't like suicide because it is a category of stuff we dont like to talk about. I dont have any answers but anger doesnt change it. You cant effectively punish those that will kill themselves... I mean... whatcha gonna do?
 

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« Reply #533 on: March 03, 2011, 10:35:30 PM »
GET OVER YOURSELF.  You think your life is so bad you need to kill yourself?
i don't think the solution is to push them over the edge.  which this tactic might just do


if you want to get an idea for whether someone is at risk for suicide, ask them if they have made a plan on how to kill themselves.  if they express an indication that they want to commit suicide and can articulate how they plan on doing it in detail, you're possibly dealing with someone who has thought about it and might just follow through.  at that point i think you almost have to call 911 and get them committed.  you probably won't get someone to self commit to hospital. 


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« Reply #535 on: March 04, 2011, 12:03:58 AM »
i make a serious statement about mental illness and you respond with a youtube video clip of the Godfather.  whatevs

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« Reply #536 on: March 04, 2011, 12:41:25 AM »
i make a serious statement about mental illness and you respond with a youtube video clip of the Godfather.  whatevs
Well, it IS the random stupid things thread.

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« Reply #537 on: March 04, 2011, 08:42:15 PM »

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« Reply #538 on: March 05, 2011, 08:51:30 PM »
Excerpt from "Instinct of Fire"


Warlord Kraqos leaned forward slightly as the sweat on his sun-weathered forehead beaded and trickled over his darkened eyes. His blood-rust colored sword carried much of his weight in front of him as its flesh-dulled point sank into the barren, ruddy earth. The world before him seemed to be veiled by a white, groaning mist. His eyes could no longer focus on the enemy. The battle seemed to have a life of its own, sipping the life energy of the weak, even before they succumbed to the taunting fingers of the afterworld. Strangely, the two warring camps stopped and faced each other in fear-laden silence for only brief seconds. The seconds became like the rhythmic intervals between the
dull, weakening beat of a tired heart.

Death was now like the sweetest water, only inches away from the blistered dry lips on both sides of the battle.

The Warlord almost welcomed it.

If not for the searing hatred of the Omogs, he could almost release his instinctual desire to return to his family. Almost. As one Omog ran toward him, the Warlord called upon the great Epos and raised his sword up and over his head. The sword, mostly by its own weight in his weakened hands, fell forward in his grasp, missing the charging Omog. A fainting, swirling darkness tunneled his vision. As he fell to his knees, he welcomed death. As his eyes closed he could see nothing but hundreds of Omogs climbing the hill toward him. And then darkness took everything...