Immigration Law Rant

[MABUSE]

I almost never discuss anything related to the topic of politics in this forum, but I am going to break my own rule this one time:
    Let me, at the outset, before the inevitable, shrill-shrieking war-cries of RACIST begin being rained down upon me state the following facts:  I have a varied and diverse social circle: 6 Arab friends (3 Palestinians, 1 Egyptian, 1 Syrian & 1 Jordanian) 2 Persian friends, a handful of Brits, Scots, Irish, 6 or 7 Mexicans (Architects, Engineers, Lawyers & restaurateurs) , 3 or 4 Indians, a couple of Pakistanis and I married into a Chinese family.  Not one of any of them has ever received or asked for one red cent of state or federal money and all have worked their asses off every day of their lives in this country to make their lives, and the lives of their children better.  Every last one of them is a legal citizen and, when queried, replies proudly that they are AMERICANS, albeit with diverse backgrounds, they all, everyone one, identify themselves as AMERICANS.  Oh, they ALL speak English, fluently…   
          With that reality in mind, I would like to ask, please, exactly where and how my life is enriched and enhanced by allowing hordes of illegal “Latins” to swarm over the border.  Living as I do in Texas, (but NOT being a born native with that irritating hyper-Texas-Nationalism that is one of the many unattractive traits of this place), I see on a regular basis the ever-growing swell of these illegals and there are massive differences between the aforementioned group and this group.  The pernicious “anchor baby” loophole is standard operating procedure in many cases and is just the tip of the iceberg of reprehensible behavior.  Indolence and ignorance are coupled with an outraged sense of entitlement which is, predictably, encouraged and  played to by the “new left” down here with nauseating inevitability. 

          I want to address this “entitlement” fallacy:

          This springs from a long-smouldering sense of outrage at the “gringos” & Norte-Americanos which in turn arises from events in the 19th century which are largely unknown, misunderstood or cynically twisted for political advantage.  The accepted dictat now is that every Mexican has a legitimate “right” to be on land which was part of an Atlantis-like mythical landmass called Aztlan at some magical period in history which never existed. 
          The truth is widely different:  When Mexico gained its independence from Spain in 1821, after 11 years of struggle, it comprised an enormous swath of land including, as we all know, the territories which are now California, Nevada, Utah, Arizona, New Mexico and of course, Texas.  What seems to have been forgotten is that it also included modern Guatemala, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Honduras, Costa Rica and Panama.  (This becomes important later, so just remember it!)
          Within a year of independence, Mexico’s “bright, new democracy” had been tossed away in favor of the dictatorship of General Agustín de Iturbide who had fought against the Spanish and had himself crowned Emperor for his troubles.  When Iturbide dissolved a noncompliant congress and decided to rule by decree, a number of other would-be dictators made common cause amongst themselves to establish a “republic” (in other words replace Iturbide with themselves) and ousted Iturbide in 1823.  A leader of this insurrection was Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna.  Even the briefest research will show that between 1823 and the Texas Succession in 1836, Mexico had 8 coups or radical changes in the presidency, none were the result of actual open or fair elections.  At the end of this period, Santa Anna had made himself autocrat and had centralized all power, abrogating the earlier, “liberal” constitution and replacing it with his own in 1836.  His views on the subject were quite clear: “A hundred years to come my people will not be fit for liberty. They do not know what it is, unenlightened as they are, and under the influence of a Catholic clergy, a despotism is the proper government for them…”         

          This act sparked uprising and rebellion throughout the Mexican Empire and many of the provinces set up their own governments with the intention of creating their own independent satrapies including Yucatan, Guanajuato, Durango, Michoacan and, of course, Texas (Coahuila y Tejas).   
          (At this point a quick word about the Anglo immigrants in Tejas is necessary.  In the 1820s, the “new” “Mexican Empire” was bankrupt and the idea arose to invite Norte Americanos to immigrate into border territories in the hope that they would improve the economy with what was perceived (in a case of racial profiling I would posit) as “Yankee” industriousness and ingenuity.  It would also create a larger manpower pool for militias with which to combat the Indians; the “original” inhabitantsâ€"to be distinguished from the Spanish and Mexican invaders, conquerors and immigrants. It is vital to note that these North American settlers where INVITED, nay begged, in some instances, to move into Mexico's foreign, sovereign territory.)

          So, Santa Anna’s repudiation of the 1824 “liberal” Constitution led to widespread revolt.  He led his armies in a brutal extermination campaign against the various rebellious provinces, slaughtering unarmed peons or ill-equipped scratch-force militias  who had dared oppose his authoritarianism.  In late 1835, the settlers (Mexican and Anglo both, it must be noted) in Tejas also rose in revolt and declared independence in March of 1836.  Shortly afterward Santa Anna stormed the Alamo and three weeks later massacred rebels at Goliad.  On April 21, 1836, however he was soundly defeated and was, himself, captured at the Battle of San Jacinto.  As the Head of State of Mexico he concluded the Treaty of Velasco by which he, himself, and in his official character as chief of the Mexican nation  “acknowledg[ed] the full, entire, and perfect Independence of the Republic of Texas."
          Santa Anna was, upon his return to Mexico, of course,  promptly overthrown by yet another government coup which proceeded to repudiate the Treaty of Velasco.  This same government however, promptly gave him command of the army two years later when the French landed a military force in Veracruz (for reasons which are beyond the present scope but which included Mexican repudiation of another treaty).  Once again the “Napoleon of the West” was defeated in battle, but managed to use the army to again seize power and make himself autocrat.  He managed to defeat another rebellion and once again launched another military invasion of the now independent Texas in 1842â€"which was again unsuccessful but which had the effect of hastening Texans to join the United States, an annexation in 1845 neither anticipated nor desired by the autocrat.  He was exiled to Cuba in 1845.
          The latest Mexican government, again repudiating the Velasco treaty and refusing to recognize the independence of Texas, its annexation by the United States, or any of the borders between the two sovereign countries based on that Treaty, broke diplomatic relations with the United States and proceeded to invade the United States in 1846 with a 2,000 man army which attacked United States forces in April of 1846. 
          The result was a disaster for Mexico.  Not unlike the Argentine-Falklands fiasco in the 1980’s the Mexican Government started what it hoped was  to be a popular war, with the intent of shifting focus from its own graft, corruption and incompetence and what it got instead was an absolute drubbing by the small, comparatively professional American army. A drubbing moreover made worse by the return from exile of Santa Anna who proclaimed himself autocrat again and savior of the country.  If the Mexican people were upset that he had given away Texas last time, they were about to be given a far greater shock:  Their invasion of the United States ended up costing Mexico the aforementioned states of California, etc al. in the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo which gave undisputed (until recently) control of Texas, California etc. to the United States. In return, the United States paid $457,373,077 (in modern dollars) to Mexico and paid off another $81,450,000 in Mexican debt. Thus ended the war begun by Mexico.
          The vast majority of Mexicans living in those barren, inhospitable and unproductive regions ceded to the United States STAYED in those territories and became American citizens, preferring the freedom and stability of living under the United States Government to any sort of racial-nationalist identification with “Mexican Pride.” There was no “trail of tears” of weeping refugees pushing handcarts southward  through the snow, being harried by Cossack-like dragoons, no displaced persons huddled in refugee camps.     

          As to Guatemala, El Salvador, Nicaragua et al., Mexico lost those portions of its “Empire” within two years of its “independence”, far sooner than the Tejas uprising stripped it of that northern province.  I am unaware of a loud and vibrant protest on the part of any Mexicans insisting that the nation-states of the former “Federal Republic of Central America” be returned to its “historic-racial control” nor have I heard that there are millions of Mexicans illegally crossing the borders of Guatemala et al.  demanding or being accorded  privileged status on the backs of the taxpayers of those independent countries. 

          So much for the legendary Arcadia of Aztlan and White Male Oppressor Guilt…  During its turbulent history, Mexico seems to have lived up to Santa Anna’s cynical assessment of it.  Besides changing governments during the 19th century with greater frequency than most of its citizens changed clothes, it consistently refused to abide by any treaties and agreements which any of the revolving-door governments signed and to which they agreed.  This included agreements with England, Spain and France in addition to the United States.  The ex-officio policy for most of the 20th century was to foster the misguided belief that the evil gringos had invaded and stolen land from the valiant Mexicans, never admitting or acknowledging that their own political and military incompetence and downright stupidity and greed were the causes, coupled with a persistent inability to create and maintain a stable government.   

          Now, having exported this deformed, deranged, dangerous and wrong view of history across the border; carried in the bellies of pregnant mothers and in the eyes and hearts of every illegal who views North America as his “manifest destiny and birthright”, the “New Left” has given cache to this revisionist nonsense and urges, in the name of Liberal Guilt that it be made canon and allowed as a legitimate element of foreign and domestic policy.

          And it this not immigration as I mentioned at the beginning of this rant; it is not people who come here, at any cost, because they want to be AMERICANS, live freer lives and raise their families as proud citizens.  People who work hard, make their children go to school and learn, who eagerly embrace their new country and its language beliefs and customs.  No, far from it,  this is a rabble-tide who believe they are entitled to come here, refuse to learn English, work off the radar, pay no taxes, refuse to abide by laws, customs and mores of this country and yet feel they are entitled to be supported and further, that they have some sort of legally and morally protected right for such actions and that it must be respected and given equality as a legitimate view of “citizenship.”
          The drunkenness, the refusal to learn English, the tribalism and appalling hygiene, (defecating in their own yards, which I have seen more times than I can count), the poorly  recycled German polka music, the disdain and eschewal of codes of civic behaviour and civil responsibility, adherence to laws, and now bringing the drug lord and gang blood feuds over the border with them.  This is what I am suppose to support?

   So, I ask again, WHY am I suppose to feel guilty and beholden to a rabble of Mexican peons and how does their invasion enlighten me or add to my quality of life?   

Here endeth the lesson...

**M**

[MV/Liberace!]

Wow.  Your post is a work of art on multiple levels.  I've only finished half of it because I have to walk out the door soon, but I look forward to completing it.

[Tricia524]

Seems like you have a lot of anger and contempt for Mexicans.  I am sorry to hear that.   Their country is messed up due to NAFTA and free trade and drug wars.

You might want to look at Charles Bowden's book and his interview on Democracy Now!  He is a journalist  who knows Mexico well and has researched it for year;
he lives in Tuscon, AZ.

Here is the link

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/4/14/charles_bowden_murder_city_ciudad_jurez

[MV/Liberace!]

Seems like you have a lot of anger and contempt for Mexicans.  I am sorry to hear that.   

on the contrary, i think he has anger and contempt for anyone who illegally breaches the borders of his country (and/or state), audaciously protesting in the streets, demanding to be allowed to continue breaking the law.  skin color and plain old nationality are not the source of his ire.

the first sentence of your post represents a framing tactic incessantly used in an attempt to discredit those who seek an end to illegal immigration, and it's not particularly moving among anybody other than the like-minded berkeley alumna with whom i'm sure you surround yourself regularly and exclusively.

rather than take a predictable, ineffective emotional approach by tacitly calling everybody a racist who happens to disagree with you on the matter of illegal immigration, perhaps you should take a moment to debate a fact or two.

for instance, you could talk about the fact that phoenix is now ranked as number two IN THE WORLD for kidnappings.  they had over 400 just last year while the feds did nothing.  people are shocked that the state is going to take matters into its own hands?  please.

or perhaps you could make mention of the fact that california residents in 2008 paid almost $800 per family in taxes just to maintain government "benefits" given to illegals.  then again, i feel no sympathy for californians.  they're getting what they deserve in multiple regards based on who they vote for and their suicidal desire to function as "sanctuary cities." 

there's also the fact that these mexicans are coming to this country and being utterly, completely abused and used by crooked employers.  listen to the april 30 broadcast of MVDRT for a great example of one of these abuse stories.

then you could acknowledge the overrun hospitals that are being closed down, some having been in business since the 1830s.  what a shame.

there are plenty of facts to cite, but simply calling people racist gets nothing done... and it certainly doesn't convince anybody to run over to hear the bilge being dropped at democracy now.

and by the way... i don't like nafa any more than you do (probably for different reasons, though), but to suggest mexico wasn't a corrupt cesspool before nafta came along causes me to seriously question your grasp of things.  you seem like a decent enough person, but that line really caused me to lose my mud.

[MABUSE]

Seems like you have a lot of anger and contempt for Mexicans.  I am sorry to hear that.   Their country is messed up due to NAFTA and free trade and drug wars.

You might want to look at Charles Bowden's book and his interview on Democracy Now!  He is a journalist  who knows Mexico well and has researched it for year;
he lives in Tuscon, AZ.

Here is the link

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/4/14/charles_bowden_murder_city_ciudad_jurez

I have an utter contempt for anyone who thinks they are above or beyond the law.  That contempt distills into anger and hatred when those same persons who flagrantly violate the law simultaneously take advantage of the same system to claim benefits and protections.  You obviously did NOT read the entirety of my post or else you lack the critical thinking skills necessary to process the information contained therein since you assert that: Their country is messed up due to NAFTA and free trade and drug wars.  Given the sequence of facts which I stated, long predating NAFTA & Narco trafficking, how do you justify your absurd proposition that those are the two (and seemingly by your statement) and only two causes of Mexico's difficulties?

I am well aware of Charles Bowden's book and his interview on Democracy Now; the axis of your "argument" against my position.  Mr. Bowden is sprung from that "BAD Liberal" strain of racial self-loathing which delights in reducing history (past and present) to Politically Correct dictat and spinning it toward the factually, historically and rhetorically bankrupt and flawed "White Male Oppressor Guilt Complex".  I disagree with his pick-n-choose fact taking and his attempts to pass off agenda as history. 

What I object to most of all is your PC approach to my statement: Seems like you have a lot of anger and contempt for Mexicans.  I am sorry to hear that.  That statement is meaningless, nor does it present opposing facts or figures nor reasoned and supported counter-contentions.  Indeed it contributes nothing whatsoever to the discussion.  All, in fact you have succeeded in doing is to launch a half-hearted PC ad hominem  attack against me from what you arrogantly presume to be some moral high ground.  Are you capable of presenting any facts which oppose my statement?  (Mind you I said FACTS, not 'feel good' love-fest weasel language which attempts to invoke an emotional response and simultaneously disconnect critical thinking and rationality.) 

I do not agree politically with most of the other denizens of this delightful oasis on a variety of issues, but we have had thoughtful and enlightening discussions about them which, I believe, have enlightened all parties.  If you cannot engage in an intelligent and educated discussion and instead must rely on emotionally charged tautologies in place of facts, then you waste my time and make yourself look foolish.

**M**

[Marc.Knight]

I have an utter contempt for anyone who thinks they are above or beyond the law.  That contempt distills into anger and hatred when those same persons who flagrantly violate the law simultaneously take advantage of the same system to claim benefits and protections.  You obviously did NOT read the entirety of my post or else you lack the critical thinking skills necessary to process the information contained therein since you assert that: Their country is messed up due to NAFTA and free trade and drug wars.  Given the sequence of facts which I stated, long predating NAFTA & Narco trafficking, how do you justify your absurd proposition that those are the two (and seemingly by your statement) and only two causes of Mexico's difficulties?

I am well aware of Charles Bowden's book and his interview on Democracy Now; the axis of your "argument" against my position.  Mr. Bowden is sprung from that "BAD Liberal" strain of racial self-loathing which delights in reducing history (past and present) to Politically Correct dictat and spinning it toward the factually, historically and rhetorically bankrupt and flawed "White Male Oppressor Guilt Complex".  I disagree with his pick-n-choose fact taking and his attempts to pass off agenda as history. 

What I object to most of all is your PC approach to my statement: Seems like you have a lot of anger and contempt for Mexicans.  I am sorry to hear that.  That statement is meaningless, nor does it present opposing facts or figures nor reasoned and supported counter-contentions.  Indeed it contributes nothing whatsoever to the discussion.  All, in fact you have succeeded in doing is to launch a half-hearted PC ad hominem  attack against me from what you arrogantly presume to be some moral high ground.  Are you capable of presenting any facts which oppose my statement?  (Mind you I said FACTS, not 'feel good' love-fest weasel language which attempts to invoke an emotional response and simultaneously disconnect critical thinking and rationality.) 

I do not agree politically with most of the other denizens of this delightful oasis on a variety of issues, but we have had thoughtful and enlightening discussions about them which, I believe, have enlightened all parties.  If you cannot engage in an intelligent and educated discussion and instead must rely on emotionally charged tautologies in place of facts, then you waste my time and make yourself look foolish.

**M**

your articulation is appreciated sir.

[krepta3000]

Hello, I'm new to this forum and I wanted to say how impressed I am by this thread and Mabuse. Wow! I normally frequent Imaginative Worlds but I was drawn to this site while searching for a shoutcast station to listen to. I was amazed to find a coast stream! Well I'm sure I will enjoy this forum.

[MABUSE]

Hello, I'm new to this forum and I wanted to say how impressed I am by this thread and Mabuse. Wow! I normally frequent Imaginative Worlds but I was drawn to this site while searching for a shoutcast station to listen to. I was amazed to find a coast stream! Well I'm sure I will enjoy this forum.

You are too kind!  Welcome!!!!
**M**

[krepta3000]

I don't have a racist bone in my body, but it seems to me that the people who scream loudest, and the most often, about racism are Themselves racist.  Like this organization "La Raza", which means The Race, as in anyone who isn't latino/hispanic isn't considered to be human, I guess.  That seems really racist to me.  Science has proven, beyond any doubt to me, that race is entirely a superficial social construct, with very little real differences between any two humans.  We are too closely genetically related to be split off into different branches on the evolutionary family tree.  Like other animal species.  Yes, We are an animal species, I get so sick and tired of the religious zealots that deny that simple fact.  So, IMHO, Race should not be an issue, it shouldn't even be brought up in a serious conversation about anything.  Everyone should be treated equally and fairly.  Not Some people being treated better, or worse, simply because of a few cosmetic, superficial, differences.

With all this racism crap all over the place, it's no wonder we've never made contact with any intelligent aliens, why the hell would they want to have anything to do with us?!  If we are this stupid about other members of our race, yes we are all one race, the Human race, then how the hell do you think we'd be with non-human races?  Oh, and a friend of mine told me that science considers a species to have evolved into a new branch every few thousand years, I can't remember how many, but that the human race has reached that point a long time ago.  So, the beings that lived here all those thousands of years ago are genetically different enough from us today for us to be called a different race, he says we need a new name.  He wants to call us http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homunculus, as in made by Humans but not Humans.  I think maybe we should call ourselves Newmans, that way no matter how many thousands of years go by, the newest version of our race will still be NEWman.

Anyway, I totally agree with SB1070, and I urge anyone who disagrees with it to actually freaking read it!  It does nothing but take the Federal system, and add a tiny new layer of State punishment on top.  It is not a racist bill, it expressly forbids racial profiling, and Law Enforcement is only able to check citizenship status After they have made Legal Contact, meaning that you have been stopped or detained for having committed some other crime or offense.  I'm so sick and tired of these morons in government being so outspoken against the bill, when they haven't even fraking READ IT!!  I'm pissed off at the California government, and LA, and every other boycotter.  But, the majority of Americans actually agree with SB1070, I bet there are a lot of Californians who agree with it too.  So, I'm not going to be mad at everybody who happens to live in California, or any other state or city that wants to boycott us.  Yes, I live in Arizona.  But I am sure as hell going to keep a list of those boycotters and boycott them right back.  I sure hope Arizona can hurt California right back. 

I suggest shipping the Illegals off to California, let those morons deal with all the costs.  There is another big thread on this that I'm heavily involved in on Imaginative Worlds, and I told them all about this thread, I am so blown away by how well you articulate things Mabuse, you are like a History Professor!  Wow!

[MV/Liberace!]

I don't have a racist bone in my body, but it seems to me that the people who scream loudest, and the most often, about racism are Themselves racist. 

i always felt the same way.  white "intellectuals" who live both in and for academia, continually lecturing others on race, are the last to have any TRUE relationships with people of differing race.  yes, they are good at latching onto a deliberately advertised token friendship for the acquisition of racial credibility and self confirmation, but simultaneously, they're the first to cross to the other side of the street when "troubled youths" (wink wink, nudge nudge) are approaching.


it's like listening to some guy go on and on about how much he can't stand gay people.  you just know deep down in there somewhere, he'd love to take a hard, long, stiff one.

[RecoveringNoorholic]

I have no problem with Arizona's 2010 immigration law.

I had very little interest in the issue of immigration until about three years ago when I was trying to help a friend of mine, a very talented but bureaucratically inept fellow, navigate the intricacies of the Green Card system to emigrate to the US from Kenya (no, this is not a sarcastic reference to Barack Obama). Today, three years later, he's still in Mombassa as we had to give-up our efforts; the reality was that the strictness and intensity of US immigration law makes migration without sponsorship or romance almost impossible (he's an artist so sponsorship was never an option and he couldn't get anyone to marry him due to an almost fantasmagorically promiscuous lifestyle).

Like most Kenyans, David speaks flawless English (with the exotic Bantu-British hybrid accent) and was extremely responsible, albeit incredibly oversexed. He's economically self-sustaining and would have been emigrating with both himself and his "job" so would have neither depleted the labor market nor burdened any social programs. I wish I could say he was "committed to doing it the right way" but I don't think he was, I'm sure he would have emigrated illegally if he could have, however, by coincidence of birth he was living in a country that didn't share a land border with the United States.

I would like to see US immigration quotas raised generally but that's never going to happen as long as there's a perception of chaos at the border. The fact that David is stuck living in a slummy part of Mombassa this evening is very directly the fault of the illegals living in this country. 

[That said, I do, however, have an issue with Arizona's 2008 immigration enforcement law that mandates use of e-verify by Arizona employers, though, I suppose my issue is with the e-verify system more generally speaking. (mission creep at the starting line) ]

[krepta3000]

When I'm out at night, and I see a group of kids walking toward me, making all kinds of noise, hooting and hollering, regardless of skin color, I get a little concerned.  Because I used to be a kid, I know what it's like to be bullied by the likes of loud, hollering, teens.  I know that I should be biased like that, I just can't help it.  I keep remembering my childhood and teenage years, which were horrific, and I cringe, waiting for them to do something to me.  Usually they don't, I relax, and everything is fine.  It's that initial reaction, though, that might cause someone to think I'm a racist.  I'm not.  If it was anyone else, just a teenager walking by, listening to music, or whatever, I wouldn't care.  No big deal.  It's the groups of kids that freak me out.  Oh well, not much I can do about it.

[krepta3000]

I have no problem with e-verify, which does nothing but look and see if someone looking to get hired actually has the legal right to work here.  If they do, no troubles.  If they don't, they shouldn't be hired.  It's corporations who gladly hire illegals for cheap labor that is the huge carrot dangling in the faces of everyone that comes here illegally.  I say take the carrot away, and punish any employer found guilty of illegal hiring practices.  You think there are no American citizens willing and able to work those jobs?!  If you think that, you're nuts.  There are plenty of Legal immigrants and people here on work visas who would love to work those jobs, but can't.  Is that fair to them?  Hmm?  No.  I fully support SB1070 and e-verify, I see nothing discriminatory or racist about either one.

I feel sorry for your friend, I too have a friend trying to legally immigrate to the US, from Brittan.  It's a long, expensive, process.  Why can't he find someone to sponsor him?  Why can't there be an organization, or corporation, that provides loans, as well as sponsorship, with the promise of repayment after the immigration process has been completed, or at least after the person has come over to the US on a visa?  This is potentially a hugely profitable market, specifically helping people come to the USA and become citizens.  Corporations do all kinds of things to get people cars, houses, and even education, why is immigration such a different thing?  I agree, the quota system, the entire immigration system really, needs to be changed.  There is too much wrong with it, IMHO.

[RecoveringNoorholic]

Why can't he find someone to sponsor him?

He doesn't have a demonstratable skill-set that a company could assert is irreplacable by an American.

Without getting too specific about this individual, he is a performance artist (legitimately so; I don't mean some guy who plays a tin whistle on the street corner for change and submits short stories to sparesely read literary journals) and the nature of his vocation would mean he would be self-employed in the US, ergo there's no one to sponsor him as he would be his own employer. There's a legitimate demand for what he does, he has been to the US for 4 months at a time, repeatedly, on a work permit but arranged through a Canadian company that skims about 60% off the top.

Why can't there be an organization, or corporation, that provides loans, as well as sponsorship, with the promise of repayment after the immigration process has been completed, or at least after the person has come over to the US on a visa? 

I'm not sure that would help. There's a 700,000 visa cap and it gets maxed annually.

Which is not to say it would be very responsible to increase it in wholesale, given the current unemployment rate in this country. However, if we already know we're intaking X-times the quota in illegal immigrants it would, intrinsically, be much fairer to stop the inflow of illegal immigrants altogether through practical border security and documentation measures and increase the visa cap a corresponding percentage. The current system of "legal illegal immigration" gives Mexicans "first in line" treatment at the expense of Kenyans, Tanzanians, Kosovars, Lebanese and whomever else simply because they happened to be born in a country that shares a land border with the US.

[puddintame]

 

Kudos to MABUSE and Krepta 3000!

[MABUSE]

In the immortal words of Ripley in "Aliens II" (and apposite reference if ever there WAS one!):
"Did IQs just drop sharply while I was away?"

On what possible grounds can the idiotic  adversaries of the Arizona Law possibly claim that ILLEGAL ALIENS have the same statutory rights and civil liberties as CITIZENS?

Due Process of law applies to CITIZENS, thus, legal and constitutional guarantees are inapplicable or unavailable to foreign nationals except as we, of our largess and liberality chose to grant.  This concept underlay the logic of Court decisions involving Gitmo detainees being substantially denied due process and proper legal representation.  While I disagree in that instance because the fact pattern is different (i.e. foreign nationals abducted from their country and dragged to the US to stand trial for violation of US laws while in a foreign country while simultaneously being denied due process under the same legal code versus illegally entering the United States of their own free will and volition with the intention of being and remaining an illegal alien).  The basic premise of the decision remains in force: Only citizens have guaranteed rights.

One of the many benefits of citizenship one receives under our social contract is the protection of law.  If every illegal is to be presumed to have equal right and standing with every citizen then there is absolutely no benefit to citizenship and, it would appear, a variety of detriments:  Taxation, licensing and jury duty come to mind for a start.  Under that scheme of twisted logic, why indeed would anyone WANT to become a citizen? 

There's no benefit and simply more responsibility.

As an illegal, especially with a "squat and drop" anchor baby; free medical, comestible, residential and financial aid flow like water from the coffers of the tax payers while the anchor baby attendants work off the radar, paying no taxes, no deductibles and often sending money across the border to relatives while living in a much better standard of living than those relatives AT THE EXPENSE OF THE CITIZEN. So, why indeed become a citizen?  Especially when there are so many uneducated, politically correct, loud-mouthed activist tw*ts who will "speak up for your rights" for you.

What I find even more appalling than these activist morons is the little statistic that seems to have slid by unnoticed:  With the impending application of the Arizona law, there has been a flood of illegals doing what? 
1. Trying to become citizens? 
2. Registering and entering the system?
3. Fleeing the jurisdiction of Arizona enforcement?

Oh yeah, number 3 all the way baby.  Actually there has been no marked increase in Arizona during this whole fiasco of people trying to become legitimate citizens which to me, is a telling fact regarding the cynical reality of the whole business.  "Better to run somewhere else where we can milk the system unfettered than register and become real citizens and carry our share of the load!"
So, I ask rhetorically:  If being in America is meaningful and important as something other than a bottomless teat to these people, WHY are we not seeing a rush to become registered and/or legal and instead seeing a flight from prosecution?

As to the "activists" who are so strident and loud:  I would genuinely like to know what the factual, legal and philosophical basis is which underlies their proposition that  illegal alien, non-citizens have equal right, equal protection and equal standing with citizens.  Please!  I am serious, I REALLY want to hear this explained using facts, history, logic, philosophy and law--indeed just about anything other than emotion-driven hysterical discharge.
I would also like to have explained how opposing something because of a stated concern about "racial profiling" does not, in and of itself, logically become a racist argument.  In other words, if someone is opposing this law because they fear it will cause Mexicans to be singled out, that person is an out and out racist, moreover a racist with a guilty conscience because of their awareness of the propensity of Mexicans to be the greatest share of offenders in Arizona.  Case closed.  If someone opposes this law because they fear that anyone could be singled out, then that concern has greater legitimacy as far as I am concerned. 

The ruling by the Judge granting an injunction was, in general terms correct and proper, maddening though it may be.  Consider for a moment that your county of residence decides it wants your land for a toxic waste dump and gives you thirty days to get out.  You would naturally file suit to oppose such action and would get an injunction to prevent it from occurring until the matter was fully litigated.  This is just common sense jurisprudence, no one should read into U.S. District Judge Susan Bolton's injunction that it is anything deeper or more meaningful than that.  It should NOT be hailed as a "Victory" by opponents of the law, nor should it be seen as a defeat by the law's supporters, in spite of the headlines being bellowed by the Entertainment Media (or MSM, or Corporate Lie Machine, Liberal Media or whatever slang term you prefer).

Okay, I'll stop...for now...

**M**

[starrmtn001]

Mabuse - Wow!


Do you mind if I post your thread to FaceBook?  Also, I'd like to copy/paste it to email to a couple friends who just don't understand what illegal immigration is doing to us.


Yes, kudos to you Mabuse and to Sheriff Joe Arpaio who said today: "  . . .  that if protesters want to block his jail, he'll put them in it."   " . . .  "it's a crime to be here illegally and everyone should enforce the law."

http://www.newsmax.com/InsideCover/US-Arizona-Immigration/2010/07/28/id/365848

[MABUSE]

Yes, I am still pissed off about all of this!

OK, a did a bit of field work over the weekend, some discreet research as it were.

I toddled around town to 8 different "Latin" markets last Friday & Saturday, it being the end of the month.  I wanted to get some actual field proof of a suspicion that has been irritating me, either proof of its occurrence and the frequency thereof or else proof that it does not, in fact, occur.

I am sorry to report that it does occur, with alarming frequency.

The IT is question is best explained by just mentioning my observations from those 8 different locales.

All of them have "check cashing" services (which include various funds wire transferring services as well.)
So,
Over and over and over and over and over and over and over again I saw long lines of illegals (for the most part) with no valid US identification, cash "paychecks" (with no witholdings obviously).  They would wire transfer the bulk of the money to relatives in Mexico then, upon completing their transaction, wander through the store to find their "Anchor baby mama" who was doing the weekly shopping, which, in virtually every single case that I followed and noted,was paid for by a government subsidized food programs.

I spent literally hours Friday night and Saturday afternoon testing this theory and results are pretty damned distrubing.

They send most of the money they make "off the grid" out of the country and then have the taxpayers of this country feed them.

How, in what possible construct of reality, by what stretch of equity and fairness can ANYONE justify this?

**M**
   

[starrmtn001]

Yes, I am still pissed off about all of this!

OK, a did a bit of field work over the weekend, some discreet research as it were.

I toddled around town to 8 different "Latin" markets last Friday & Saturday, it being the end of the month.  I wanted to get some actual field proof of a suspicion that has been irritating me, either proof of its occurrence and the frequency thereof or else proof that it does not, in fact, occur.

I am sorry to report that it does occur, with alarming frequency.

The IT is question is best explained by just mentioning my observations from those 8 different locales.

All of them have "check cashing" services (which include various funds wire transferring services as well.)
So,
Over and over and over and over and over and over and over again I saw long lines of illegals (for the most part) with no valid US identification, cash "paychecks" (with no witholdings obviously).  They would wire transfer the bulk of the money to relatives in Mexico then, upon completing their transaction, wander through the store to find their "Anchor baby mama" who was doing the weekly shopping, which, in virtually every single case that I followed and noted,was paid for by a government subsidized food programs.

I spent literally hours Friday night and Saturday afternoon testing this theory and results are pretty damned distrubing.

They send most of the money they make "off the grid" out of the country and then have the taxpayers of this country feed them.

How, in what possible construct of reality, by what stretch of equity and fairness can ANYONE justify this?

**M**

I feel as though we Americans are being treated as second class citizens in OUR OWN COUNTRY!!!


How do we stop this COLOSSAL TRANSGRESSION AGAINST WE, THE PEOPLE?  How?  I hope the election season can help us - but I'm not going to hold my breath.   

[DoYouThinkItWasAngels]

Charges of racism are a ploy:

take one of them â€" Fred Barnes, Karl Rove, who cares â€" and call them racists. Ask: why do they have such a deep-seated problem with a black politician who unites the country? What lurks behind those problems? This makes *them* sputter with rage, which in turn leads to overreaction and self-destruction.

[starrmtn001]

Good article Angels, thanks.
May I ask, why Maitreya for your avatar?

[DoYouThinkItWasAngels]

Good article Angels, thanks.
May I ask, why Maitreya for your avatar?

I find humor in the absurd.  Did you hear that they found the Maitreya in the person of one bewildered academic?

It might be awesome to wake up one day and discover that a cult has appointed you Jesus!

[RecoveringNoorholic]

It might be awesome to wake up one day and discover that a cult has appointed you Jesus!

been there, done that

[MV/Liberace!]

It might be awesome to wake up one day and discover that a cult has appointed you Jesus!

been there, done that

LOL

[gerogeeatsit]

I have a few things to say.

I take exception to the statement that those who work in academia are somehow out of touch with society and the true picture of some minorities in this country.  That is painting an entire population with a very wide brush, and the orginator of this thread is pissed that people are painting HIM with a wide brush, yet it's being done to those on the other side. 

I found it ironic that in order to try to disassociate with racists, one feels the need to list a pedigree of their entire family.  That does NOT mean I think the author was racist...I just find it ironic that the discussion focuses on how race is NOT a part of the issue, but then a compilation of race of the family is recited.  If the topic was about illegality, then surely a list of any illegal behavior should have been listed.

I do not believe that everyone who supports SB 1070 is a racist, but I do believe and have seen on TV, and heard from people in person, that there ARE supporters who ARE racists.  To say that there is no racism involved on the pro side is disingenuous.  FURTHERMORE:  Not ALL persons who disagree with SB1070 are idiots, as the originator of this thread states they are.

Lastly, there have been charges of ad hominem attack from someone who disagreed, yet the originator had used words such as 'idiots' and described anyone who differed as a liberal as if that was something nasty to be.  That's acceptable but someone who disagrees and comes at it from another approach is suddenly an idiot liberal?  I guess if that's the case there really is no room for discussion on this matter in this thread.  It's really just about venting and "Hell ya, man!  I agree!" type of posts.  Which is too bad, IMO.

I'm trying to look at this from both sides,  but all I see is a lot of rage Ion both sides).  We have an MSM intent on fueling rage.  Add in slimey politicians who take action only to ensure election props, and it leaves the entire populiation feeling like they've taken one up the arse.

I'm sure, because I didn't tell people what they wanted to hear, that someone will feel the need to call me some ridiculous name, or immediately label me as some ignorant liberal.  Those types of people are not worth any attempt at civil discussion.  I understand the need to vent, but if no discussion is allowed (dismissed as ad hom for simply a different opinion), then nothing will ever be solved in this country.  Which is exactly how both political parties want it.

[Marc.Knight]

Just gaze at this for a while.  If this were placed in downtown Manhattan or Pennsylvania Avenue instead of Arizona the press would be forced to present a different view.  It is a sign that the Federal Government has given up.  What if you had a "no go" sign next to your house?

[EvB]

I think most of the comments in this thread are well thought out, and I appreciate them.  I'm not so well informed on the details of the issue.  here is what it boils down to to me:

We have immigration laws.  Why do we pussy-foot about enforcing them?  Clarity on what the laws ACTUALLY ARE (and if a law is routinely not enforced one could argue it is not a law - in fact - such arguments often win in court) can only serve to help everyone in the end.  If we don't like the immigration laws as they are - we should amend or alter them (actually getting laws off the books is often a nightmare . .  but I digress)

I'm often called a left-leaning bleeding heart, with some reason. But, it defies my sense of logic to call people bad and wrong for trying to enforce laws we have.

What am I missing?

[MV/Liberace!]

I think most of the comments in this thread are well thought out, and I appreciate them.  I'm not so well informed on the details of the issue.  here is what it boils down to to me:

We have immigration laws.  Why do we pussy-foot about enforcing them?  Clarity on what the laws ACTUALLY ARE (and if a law is routinely not enforced one could argue it is not a law - in fact - such arguments often win in court) can only serve to help everyone in the end.  If we don't like the immigration laws as they are - we should amend or alter them (actually getting laws off the books is often a nightmare . .  but I digress)

I'm often called a left-leaning bleeding heart, with some reason. But, it defies my sense of logic to call people bad and wrong for trying to enforce laws we have.

What am I missing?

holy shit, evelyn.  i don't know what's happened to you.  it's like i'm doing the show with rush limbaugh or something!!    jeeee-heeee-sus.


i'm happy you've seen the light, though.

[GuerrillaUnReal]

I am very torn on this issue. It's very complex and is connected to much more problems than the actual illegals themselves. Let me illustrate an experience real quick...

My parents used to own one of the biggest production companies in North America (luckily they sold it and got out before the economy tanked) and during an extremely complicated mid-six figures event, we hired illegals from a local church that harbors, protects and helps them find work. They were some of the nicest and the most hard working people I've ever come across. Also we paid them the same wage as we would anyone else.

Now why did we do that? First and foremost, it's almost impossible to find competent labor in this country. As much as everyone wants to say Americans are out of work and "Ohhhh the humanity" fact is a very large percentage of Americans are fat, lazy, self-entitled idiots. We also hired a group of suburban white kids to do the same job as the illegals. Those kids lasted about half a day, bitched the entire time, and just served to completely shoot my faith in the educational system in the head. So you have an entire generation of unemployable retards who aren't capable of taking the vacant jobs that get handed to the illegals. This manages to fuck the economy because the money going to illegals is under the table and the ever growing generation of unemployable retards continue to take welfare money and reproduce creating more and more unemployable retards.

Also unions in this company have completely priced them out of any type of reality in the business place. My earliest memory was crossing a picket line of some local that was pissed that they couldn't extort money from my parents because my parents' company was from out of town. Also let's say you do hire a union, now you got these lazy way overpaid fucks who take twice as long to accomplish anything you and I could do and will get paid two to five times more than they're non-union equivalent. Plus you have to put up with a lot of silly ass rules and have some overpaid fuck in your office telling you how to run your company. So with how this stupidity has worked itself out, a significant portion of the competent work force of Americans have fucked themselves out of jobs which go to illegals and go off-shores. Why do you think American industries bolted to third world countries en masse in the late 20th century? It was the unions that drove them out. This also has significantly contributed to destroying the economy, led to the NAFTA agreement and gave rise to the illegals problem.

So despite having so many Americans out of jobs, our system is so corrupted that those Americans simply aren't a viable option for employers so the illegals and third world sweat shops get those jobs. The Americans who are employed see their job quality drop dramatically because their employer can treat them like garbage because 100 people will do the same job for less. Also add in our pussy President, wall street completely destroying our financial system, this joke we call a government, and the out-right greed and corruption in this country. Focusing on illegals is like treating a scrape on the bottom of a guy's foot while he's bleeding from a gun shot wound to the head. Illegals are just a symptom of much bigger problems in our country. I guarantee if you addressed the real problems in this country, the illegal problem would slowly fade away by itself.

However now like the welfare class, the illegal class is firmly entrenched within our culture and nothing anyone can do will change it. I personally don't have a problem with illegals because they're usually what Americans used to be, hard-working, courageous, and just want their kids to do better. And I've learned to accept this because I realize the government is so dickless that they'll never do anything about it, especially since they in large part encourage it by keeping Mexico completely destabilized and largely encouraging the drug cartels and trade. So nothing you or I say will change anything.

I'd be willing to bet that in five-ten years when our economy finally collapses and all hell breaks loose and we have to pull out of Iraq (oh yeah... we already did... twice) and Afghanistan, that within two-five years we'll be in a hellacious war with Mexico after that to keep unemployable retards busy with yellow ribbons and "supporting the troops" or whatever other mindless fucking things this country consumes itself while it's getting raped. You think this government was a sweetheart with this bullshit muslim thing? Just think how they're going to be able to manipulate by convincing us of all the sleeper cells in America with the several million illegals over here.

[Marc.Knight]

....and just served to completely shoot my faith in the educational system in the head.

There really isn't much of an educational system anymore.  Or, more accurately, there is very little education being performed by the system.