RELIGION Thread

[theONE]

How do I prove a negative? Nothing I say or anyone says will sway your beliefs. Or rather, faith. So why waste the pixels?

Ok, you see pud I got you into very uncomfortable situation, I asked you a scientific question, nothing to do with GOD or religion
and you can not grasp it and your come back is so very l a m e
It's not about religion, it's not about faith -it's a purely scientific question, pud if your are incapable of providing educated answer
say it so, don't embarrass yourself with this cheep "waste of pixels" silliness...

Be a man pud, and admit that first time in your life you got guided into a corner and you have no answer to my challenge scientific question...
and most that you can master is a very lame attempt on sarcasm

Don't compete with SV in that category pud,..he was first therefore he holds that crown...,lol

[K_Dubb]

THAT WOULD BE AN ECUMENICAL MATTER

Indeed.  But with allies such as these, would you not run cheerfully at the foe?

[Jackstar]

I'm running to Bacchus.

[Yorkshire pud]

Ok, you see pud I got you into very uncomfortable situation, I asked you a scientific question, nothing to do with GOD or religion
and you can not grasp it and your come back is so very l a m e
It's not about religion, it's not about faith -it's a purely scientific question, pud if your are incapable of providing educated answer
say it so, don't embarrass yourself with this cheep "waste of pixels" silliness...

Be a man pud, and admit that first time in your life you got guided into a corner and you have no answer to my challenge scientific question...
and most that you can master is a very lame attempt on sarcasm

Don't compete with SV in that category pud,..he was first therefore he holds that crown...,lol

I'm neither a scientist, nor pretend to be. And neither are you. So purely on a scientific basis (and its okay, you have no need to salivate on my behalf), show me the proof of devine or intelligent creation. I'm prepared to concede that (as do scientists who study such things), that everything hasn't been proven scientifically, and probably never will. But you see, the same way conspiracy theorists never agree, neither do theologians. Some Christians really believe the Earth is 60000 years old, others less than that. And think they can prove it. One side has to be wrong, no? Extrapolate that to other theologian 'proven facts'.

[K_Dubb]

I'm running to Bacchus.

I shall join you in his rites shortly, my brother, though Shreddy will cite me for my cherry-picking hypocrisy once again.  REPENT, all ye who scorn the bacchanal in your pinch-faced sobriety.  REPENT and be scandalized!

[Jackstar]

I shall join you in his rites shortly

Can you grab the datura? Asking for a friend.

[FightTheFuture]

I'm running to Bacchus.

Jesus: died a horrific death for your sins, raised from the dead and ascended to heaven.

Bacchus: an imaginary entity, raised  from a drunken stupor and ascended to nowhere.



Choose wisely.

[Jackstar]

Choose wisely.

Read the books again.

[theONE]

I'm neither a scientist, nor pretend to be. And neither are you. So purely on a scientific basis (and its okay, you have no need to salivate on my behalf), show me the proof of devine or intelligent creation. I'm prepared to concede that (as do scientists who study such things), that everything has been proven scientifically, and probably never will. But you see, the same way conspiracy theorists never agree, neither do theologians. Some Christians really believe the Earth is 60000 years old, others less than that. And think they can prove it. One side has to be wrong, no? Extrapolate that to other theologian 'proven facts'.

You missing the point pud,..that I know for sure.
Only thing that I'm not sure if you missing the point on purpose or because you are not sharp enough to comprehend it,..
pud you don't have to be a scientist to answer my challenge question.
My question is of the same caliber as for example this question:

Q-"what is the knife made out of" A-"from metal" Q-"where did the metal come from"  A-"from ore"  Q-"where did the ore come from"
A-"from Earth"
...done, question was asked, answers were given ... why you pud can not do the same in respect to my question, I'm not asking you
for some complex mathematical-chemical-physical thesis -just simple plain answer-
" -so please pud rise to the challenge and tell me how the life started,how the first elements
that become building blocks of life come to existence,.."

If no GOD than who/what originated them ?
pud if you are so sure that there is no GOD you must be sure how ALL life started, I know you believe in evolution therefor you believe that
you started as a plankton that grew legs and crawl out of the ocean on the dry land and evolved into monkeys and monkeys evolved
into humans ,..but I like you pud to tell me where the first basic elements that the plankton was created from ,where did they come from??

Or you have no clue and you are just repeating some senseless concept that has no logical beginning to it ??
You see pud in order for your evolutionary theory to sound sane it has to have the missing..link --the beginning--
otherwise is an embarrassing failure..................................and a lie created by Satan to mislead people that there is no GOD

[FightTheFuture]

Read the books again.

a

And your choice of the punch drunk Vinny Pazienza over the Apostle Paul says everything I need to know about you. Good luck in a few years, Jackie.

[Jackstar]

Good luck in a few years, Jackie.

... U generous, Bro-Of-My-Bro? Yeah, u is. U so generous.

[FightTheFuture]

... U generous, Bro-Of-My-Bro? Yeah, u is. U so generous.

Well, this is like the 4th or 5th response to one of your unintelligible posts. A record, I suspect. But the fact is, you`re an uninformed, infantile, twit that has an ax to grind against a world that routinely laughs in your face. You should grow-up. Maybe attempt to find a another young gay conspiracy theorist that appreciates an imbecilic bedwetter like yourself.

[Jackstar]

Yeah, u generous. For sure.

[theONE]

Nothing wrong with wetting own bed with tears of remorse for living sinful live ,lol

[K_Dubb]

Well, this is like the 4th or 5th response to one of your unintelligible posts. A record, I suspect. But the fact is, you`re an uninformed, infantile, twit that has an ax to grind against a world that routinely laughs in your face. You should grow-up. Maybe attempt to find a another young gay conspiracy theorist that appreciates an imbecilic bedwetter like yourself.

...as though ripped from His very lips. 

[theONE]

Good luck when he meets me. If that shit's real, which as you know I don't think it is, then God and I are going to have a little chat about the reasons for creating and allowing infant cancer, the black plague, the Irish potato famine, the fact that life in the universe is based entirely on the concept of being a collective orgy of murder i.e. everything eating everything else, and so on. At its very most basic level, it was HIGHLY unethical to create this universe, stick a bunch of self-aware beings in it, and then sit back and watch the ant farm eat itself. It's no wonder that there was a rebellion in heaven, I wouldn't have sat back and watched that shit going on either.

You see, besides being familiar with Bible and teachings in it, /I mean familiar don't mean I can quote it at will/
I also believe that we do reincarnate, {but not in the forms like is believed in India into different forms of animals}
but humans to humans, I know that many Christians think that there is nothing in the Bible on the topic of reincarnation
and they will quote this: /see included screen shot/

I don't have time right now to share my reasoning and experience that made me believe that we do reincarnate,
I will share that later on.
Here is interesting read on the topic..

"Reincarnation in the Bible"
http://www.near-death.com/reincarnation/history/bible.html

...and yes, I do believe that -or- teachings on reincarnation were removed from the original Biblical composition,..
-or- they were never included in order to keep people uninformed in order to create 'vacuum of knowledge' so people are confused
and much more easy to control by organized religious disingenuous authorities...

SciFi -if you consider that perhaps reincarnation is real and that our Free Will given by GOD is indeed free will to do sometimes nasty things
to others when we are angry and that there is two way we can deal with repercussions for our violent /unreasonable/ actions -one way is to ask
the person/s/ we wronged to forgive us or if they will not forgive us for whatever reason other way is to re-live same /similar to the same/ experiences
in our next life as a lesson.
As to illnesses especially in young babies,not all of them but I think lot's of them are chosen by us as a "stumbling blocks" to experience our dependance
on others to take care of us and also providing them with experience to learn /or to return favour from previous lives/ how to take care of sick person.

There is few variations on "why and how come this way or that way" things are happening in our lives,
and why "bad things happen to good people" -but starting point is that if God didn't give us free will to do evil things we would be
programmed to do only good things,..there would be no free will to choose.

For now this Planet is under this structure, so humanity each one of us can choose what we like to be who we like to follow,
but there is time coming that this will change with second return of Jesus Christ.

"Book of Revelation" I highly recommend for you /and for others of course/ to read-to study, even if you are not a believer in God of The Bible,
just read it as a scientific futuristic book, it's full of very interesting informations what is awaiting humanity and what is awaiting our Planet
before and after second coming of Jesus Christ.
Or better yet get one of those audio versions of Book of Revelation to listen too.

Just ignore the things in it that right now irritate you about God about Jesus Christ, just get familiar with the concepts and changes
that are described there,..and see if that it something that you would like to participate in it or reject -as you have Free Will to do so.
OK, there is one catch there I must tell you right now,
yes you have free will to reject what God has in the future for those who decide to follow Him and He will honor your free will choice,
but there are consequences /as with every decision that we make in life -- so nothing new or tricky here/

Just give a try ,if some sections are boring you just skip to the one's that look interesting, and you might decide to come back to the one's
that you skipped later on.

You SciFi as an author of this genre /scientific/ would be surprised how many interesting concepts are described in the "Book of Revelation"

This is very nicely done audio Bible with Book of Revelation at the end of it:

I have a 20 CD set of "The Word of Promise-New Testament" presented in a dramatic radio theater audio Bible recorded by over 500 actors.
Very nice production.

"The Word of Promise Full Bible"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05LU7rqH-zw

For those who would like to listen to this audio theater on a long drive trip or during walk here is the download link:
1/. https://www.faithplanet.com/Product.aspx?ID=336109&P=250

2/. http://www.thewordofpromise.com/

[trostol]

http://www.quickmeme.com/Good-Guy-Lucifer/?upcoming

[theONE]

If you get familiar with correct concepts of reincarnation, and incorporate that into Biblical stories into "how God works"
everything will fall into logical sense why God is allowing all that suffering and wars and polluting of Planet,etc-etc, that we have
going on on this Planet and that WE ourselves contribute to it as well, some of us in bigger others in smaller ways.

By reading massive amounts of stories of people recalling past lives /especially by children who with perfect accuracy can point to locations
that they never visited, name names, etc-etc/ you have to give it serious consideration,..and reject the false doctrine
propagated by 'the church' that reincarnation is Devil's idea.
Devil's idea was in my opinion to remove it from -or not to include it- in the collection of Biblical teachings in order to prevent masses from
properly understand how "things work"

With understanding that reincarnation is a real event you can begin to understand the information given in the Bible that everything
in human history has it's designated time period to play out,..like a play in the theatre same with this period of wars and social disfunction
eventually this period this play will end, show will be finished, actors will play out their roles and new play will begin,..
play with different script where some of the previous actors will return but with different attributes,
they will be changed -but changed not by being forced to change but changed by their own free will, changed not to be violent any more,
changed to follow God Laws that are fair=just and good and beneficial for humans.

And that change is lasting change ,change that was not imposed by a tyrannical God but change that some humans decided to make
with free will choice in their hearts based on experiencing all this tragic violent society /and as stated before contributing to it/ --
but not all humans will make that change ,there will be those of you who will still be stubborn in your minds and in your hearts
and decide to continue to serve HIM the deceiver and liar the Satan

And that is your free will to do so, you see how smart and generous Almighty GOD is -He is not forcing you to Love him, He gives you free will
to Love Him or to reject Him.
That brain that He/God created and is inside of your scull right now reading this, He allow for you to use it to love Him or to hate Him,
to accept Him or to reject Him --isn't that very fair deal-- He could create us as a obedient robotic humans with pre-programmed
love and obedience towards Him but that would not be real Love towards Him, that would be 'computer software program' Love

Real Love towards God is only when we have free will to Love Him or to Reject Him and when we choose of our free will to Love Him
and to follow His Laws His manual, same as car maker gives us manual how to drive and care for our cars...
same God He give us manual how to live our lives but as same as with cars we have free will to ignore the manual and not to change oil,
not to do repairs, don't drive over glass and nails..etc-etc when is required/suggested by car maker
same with God's manual we have free will to reject it,.. but same as with cars there will be consequences to our ignoring/rejecting
care repair manual suggestions -- same with God and rejecting His manual, there are consequences -- very fair deal in my opinion...

[Jackstar]

...as though ripped from His very lips.

Jesus wept... with laughter.

[SciFiAuthor]

SciFi -if you consider that perhaps reincarnation is real and that our Free Will given by GOD is indeed free will to do sometimes nasty things
to others when we are angry and that there is two way we can deal with repercussions for our violent /unreasonable/ actions -one way is to ask
the person/s/ we wronged to forgive us or if they will not forgive us for whatever reason other way is to re-live same /similar to the same/ experiences
in our next life as a lesson.
As to illnesses especially in young babies,not all of them but I think lot's of them are chosen by us as a "stumbling blocks" to experience our dependance
on others to take care of us and also providing them with experience to learn /or to return favour from previous lives/ how to take care of sick person.

There is few variations on "why and how come this way or that way" things are happening in our lives,
and why "bad things happen to good people" -but starting point is that if God didn't give us free will to do evil things we would be
programmed to do only good things,..there would be no free will to choose.

For now this Planet is under this structure, so humanity each one of us can choose what we like to be who we like to follow,
but there is time coming that this will change with second return of Jesus Christ.

"Book of Revelation" I highly recommend for you /and for others of course/ to read-to study, even if you are not a believer in God of The Bible,
just read it as a scientific futuristic book, it's full of very interesting informations what is awaiting humanity and what is awaiting our Planet
before and after second coming of Jesus Christ.
Or better yet get one of those audio versions of Book of Revelation to listen too.

Just ignore the things in it that right now irritate you about God about Jesus Christ, just get familiar with the concepts and changes
that are described there,..and see if that it something that you would like to participate in it or reject -as you have Free Will to do so.
OK, there is one catch there I must tell you right now,
yes you have free will to reject what God has in the future for those who decide to follow Him and He will honor your free will choice,
but there are consequences /as with every decision that we make in life -- so nothing new or tricky here/

Just give a try ,if some sections are boring you just skip to the one's that look interesting, and you might decide to come back to the one's
that you skipped later on.

You SciFi as an author of this genre /scientific/ would be surprised how many interesting concepts are described in the "Book of Revelation"

This is very nicely done audio Bible with Book of Revelation at the end of it:

One,

I don't discount religion as such. I'm an agnostic, not an atheist. Nor do I discount reincarnation. There are plenty of interesting accounts surrounding that, I agree on that point. My mind is open, I think these things are possible. My fundamental problem is that if there is more to the universe than the atheists claim, which I suspect there is, then whomever set this sham of a universe up needs a good kick in the nuts.

And I don't mean Adam and Eve and original sin here, I mean the actual basic nature of the universe. Setting it up as it is would be fundamentally unethical to the religions that it spawned, which suggests to me that they are obsolete. Reading the mind of god through science and modern philosophy reveals the mind of a madman.

If you want interesting reading on why I think this way, go to Wikipedia and search "anthropic principal" and "simulation theory" for lots of mindblows.

[mikuthing01]

When i was of the atheist mindset i didn't understand why God would do this to us and if he existed he was evil. Now i think it's just an experience to grow spiritually by knowing the difference between good and evil, its not fun but there are some lessons to be learned from it and it will all pass eventually.

www.thepathoftruth.com/teachings/purpose-of-evil.htm

[theONE]

One,

I don't discount religion as such. I'm an agnostic, not an atheist. Nor do I discount reincarnation. There are plenty of interesting accounts surrounding that, I agree on that point. My mind is open, I think these things are possible. My fundamental problem is that if there is more to the universe than the atheists claim, which I suspect there is, then whomever set this sham of a universe up needs a good kick in the nuts.

And I don't mean Adam and Eve and original sin here, I mean the actual basic nature of the universe. Setting it up as it is would be fundamentally unethical to the religions that it spawned, which suggests to me that they are obsolete. Reading the mind of god through science and modern philosophy reveals the mind of a madman.

If you want interesting reading on why I think this way, go to Wikipedia and search "anthropic principal" and "simulation theory" for lots of mindblows.

SciFi -take this approach, you an creative person, imagine you are god who can create life, and that you decided to create new planet with new beings
on it, you got your design how they will look physically, but now you need to design their emotional aspects, their thinking patterns, their reasoning
capacity, ...because till now you just have shaped physical bodies with out mental emotional faculties, no thinking capacity in them.

In my opinion you have only two choices, or to give them free will like we have in all of our non physical qualities and capacities
or you can start limiting them one by one, some less some more, but every time you limit one of them you creating being more and more
"programmed" to do things to react to things according to only one principal the principal that you design into them -no room for choices
that those beings would make in their reactions to various situations to various stimuli.

If you spend some time in relaxed atmosphere thinking how would you design-create human beings,how would you improve
existing 'design' of human beings you will come to a very interesting conclusions in my opinion
especially for a person with creative mind of a writer...quite fun and provoking mental fantasy exercise...

As to your reading suggestions, thank you for them, but my fait in Jesus Christ is solidly set,..I went years ago through a very intensive stage
of few years of reading books on various religions and philosophies.
I was born into Christian faith, but never really understood much about it besides very basic stuff, then got extremely angry
at Christianity at God couldn't stand it hearing name of Jesus Christ /never mind pronounce it in public/ was also outraged at all of that
injustice that you talked about it ..and more and I went on a discovery "trip" reading about many different religions,philosophies,
new age,..etc-etc - but as much as some of them offered me some help and explanations I felt that there was something missing in their
chain of logic, theory was sounding good but suddenly a piece of logic was missing, quite significant piece of logic was missing so I was
dropping them one by one.

And eventually I come back to revisit Christianity, started reading Bible and what was really helpful was listening to radio program
with Bible study done by various Christian dominations,..and after few months of listening to them for few hours a day,
/I got a small SONY packet radio and over the ear loop style headphones that I cut off the left loop and listen in my right ear
that way I could also hear outside world if need it/ - so after few months I got to understand which of the preacher was more logical
and careful in his Bible interpretation and which was more 'wild' - but even from the 'wild' bit crazy ones I was learning stuff.

After the years I still listen to them /there is only one that I turn radio off when he is on/ -and from the rest of them I still learn things
even that I might not agree with their interpretation on all of the topics like on Sunday worshiping and how that day was
fraudulently introduced into Christianity /you can read my post on it here/ 
Re: RELIGION Thread « Reply #49 on: October 27, 2016, 02:33:10 AM » http://bellgab.com/index.php/topic,10386.30.html

Add to it twice very vivid out of body experience and listening to Art Bell shows that cover past lives, and before that reading about it 
in some of the books, every thing come togheter into much more logical format that brought sense of 'peace' with in my self
in respect to understand why Loving God would allow for all this suffering to happen especially to children...

And that is a huge relief from constant fighting with the invisible All-powerful Creator
I don't claim that I fully understand everything but I think I have pretty good idea and now I'm not ashamed to say name of Jesus Christ
in public but I don't go and start conversations about it, only if I'm asked and I don't go full blast, just share and answer enough to satisfy
the level of interest of that person...

You should consider to give a try it might bring lot's of relief and inner peace 


[attachment deleted by admin]

[theONE]

When i was of the atheist mindset i didn't understand why God would do this to us and if he existed he was evil. Now i think it's just an experience to grow spiritually by knowing the difference between good and evil, its not fun but there are some lessons to be learned from it and it will all pass eventually.

www.thepathoftruth.com/teachings/purpose-of-evil.htm

Interesting link miku, I started reading it but will finish in next couple of days...interesting take on it
I was always thinking why God let the 'opening' for evil to manifest but with out that option there would be no free will in humans
and we would be just blobs of meat acting and reacting according to the 'program' encoded into us

also I like the graphic layout of it,easy to read -some sites/articles are created with 7 different colors flashing and all that jazz impossible to read, lol

...good link Thanks

[SciFiAuthor]

SciFi -take this approach, you an creative person, imagine you are god who can create life, and that you decided to create new planet with new beings
on it, you got your design how they will look physically, but now you need to design their emotional aspects, their thinking patterns, their reasoning
capacity, ...because till now you just have shaped physical bodies with out mental emotional faculties, no thinking capacity in them.

In my opinion you have only two choices, or to give them free will like we have in all of our non physical qualities and capacities
or you can start limiting them one by one, some less some more, but every time you limit one of them you creating being more and more
"programmed" to do things to react to things according to only one principal the principal that you design into them -no room for choices
that those beings would make in their reactions to various situations to various stimuli.

If you spend some time in relaxed atmosphere thinking how would you design-create human beings,how would you improve
existing 'design' of human beings you will come to a very interesting conclusions in my opinion
especially for a person with creative mind of a writer...quite fun and provoking mental fantasy exercise...

As to your reading suggestions, thank you for them, but my fait in Jesus Christ is solidly set,..I went years ago through a very intensive stage
of few years of reading books on various religions and philosophies.
I was born into Christian faith, but never really understood much about it besides very basic stuff, then got extremely angry
at Christianity at God couldn't stand it hearing name of Jesus Christ /never mind pronounce it in public/ was also outraged at all of that
injustice that you talked about it ..and more and I went on a discovery "trip" reading about many different religions,philosophies,
new age,..etc-etc - but as much as some of them offered me some help and explanations I felt that there was something missing in their
chain of logic, theory was sounding good but suddenly a piece of logic was missing, quite significant piece of logic was missing so I was
dropping them one by one.

And eventually I come back to revisit Christianity, started reading Bible and what was really helpful was listening to radio program
with Bible study done by various Christian dominations,..and after few months of listening to them for few hours a day,
/I got a small SONY packet radio and over the ear loop style headphones that I cut off the left loop and listen in my right ear
that way I could also hear outside world if need it/ - so after few months I got to understand which of the preacher was more logical
and careful in his Bible interpretation and which was more 'wild' - but even from the 'wild' bit crazy ones I was learning stuff.

After the years I still listen to them /there is only one that I turn radio off when he is on/ -and from the rest of them I still learn things
even that I might not agree with their interpretation on all of the topics like on Sunday worshiping and how that day was
fraudulently introduced into Christianity /you can read my post on it here/ 
Re: RELIGION Thread « Reply #49 on: October 27, 2016, 02:33:10 AM » http://bellgab.com/index.php/topic,10386.30.html

Add to it twice very vivid out of body experience and listening to Art Bell shows that cover past lives, and before that reading about it 
in some of the books, every thing come togheter into much more logical format that brought sense of 'peace' with in my self
in respect to understand why Loving God would allow for all this suffering to happen especially to children...

And that is a huge relief from constant fighting with the invisible All-powerful Creator
I don't claim that I fully understand everything but I think I have pretty good idea and now I'm not ashamed to say name of Jesus Christ
in public but I don't go and start conversations about it, only if I'm asked and I don't go full blast, just share and answer enough to satisfy
the level of interest of that person...

You should consider to give a try it might bring lot's of relief and inner peace 

D, my problem is that I find Jesus of Nazareth to be redundant and irrelevant. He just seems to have been some guy claiming royal lineage that the Romans executed for sedition that happened to back his claim by starting a religion around it. Then St. Paul expanded upon it. We've seen that a lot; Joseph Smith, L. Ron Hubbard, Muhammad, etc.; all have adherents that speak every bit as zealously as the most diehard Christian.

People can have a psychological need for religion and then to support it they project it to others. All will claim that they are right, but only because they are uncertain. Politics works like that too, it's an area where a person can fundamentally believe they are correct and have faith in that, in a world where they see nothing but dissonance. But the reality of it is that they are just rigid and not open to new thought.

But I have systemic issues with the whole thing. God did not set this universe up very well. In fact, the universe is outright half-assed and in many ways disgusting. The very idea that the only way life can exist and sustain itself is by killing and eating other life is barbaric. God intended a universe based on collective murder, fornication and competition and then created a series of competing religions ostensibly based on the rejection of those three very natural things, despite the result of a successful rejection of any of them being death for the human race. I can think of a hundred better ways to do things than that absurd shit and I certainly do not trust such a god to set up a paradise after life.

I'll just happily take what I had before I was born. Non-existence. I hope for that, because I guarantee, based on this half-assed universe, that anything else is going to be screwed up. Ghosts, Art's trick tunnels, and all manner of fucked up shit awaits if there is more to this story. And if I ever meet god, I'm going to point out that he's the universe's ultimate abortionist and then ask him to justify it.

[21st Century Man]

D, my problem is that I find Jesus of Nazareth to be redundant and irrelevant. He just seems to have been some guy claiming royal lineage that the Romans executed for sedition that happened to back his claim by starting a religion around it. Then St. Paul expanded upon it. We've seen that a lot; Joseph Smith, L. Ron Hubbard, Muhammad, etc. all have adherents that speak every bit as zealously as the most diehard Christian.

People can have a psychological need for religion and then to support it they project it to others. All will claim that they are right, but only because they are uncertain. Politics works like that too, it's an area where a person can fundamentally believe they are correct and have faith in that, in a world where they see nothing but dissonance. But the reality of it is that they are just rigid and not open to new thought.

But I have systemic issues with the whole thing. God did not set this universe up very well. In fact, the universe is outright half-assed and in many ways disgusting. The very idea that the only way life can exist and sustain itself is by killing and eating other life is a barbaric. God intended a universe based on collective murder, fornication and competition and then created a series of competing religions ostensibly based on the rejection of those three very natural things, despite the successful rejection of any of them being death for the human race. I can think of a hundred better ways to do things than that absurd shit and I certainly do not trust such a god to set up a paradise after life.

I'll just happily take what I had before I was born. Non-existence. I hope for that, because I guarantee, based on this half-assed universe, that anything else is going to be screwed up. Ghosts, Art's trick tunnels, and all manner of fucked up shit awaits if there is more to this story. And if I ever meet god, I'm going to point out that he's the universe's ultimate abortionist and then ask him to justify it.

I was something before I was born, SF.  I don't know what but even at an infantile age, I knew my life on Earth was only a continuation of a much longer life but for some reason the details of prior existence were wiped clean when I was born or very shortly thereafter. 

Sure there is a lot of bad in this universe but there is also a lot of beauty and good.  It is a mixture of heaven and hell, so to speak.  Why do bad things happen?  I don't know but I'm just an insignificant flea maybe I'll know when I die.  Yeah that old saying, paraphrased, we cannot fathom the ways of God.  I know it sounds like a cheap excuse.  Believe me,  I'll want answers to the same questions that you have been asking when I die.  Thing is I know there is something more.  Call it faith if you want.  We all have to take our own personal journey and I certainly can't prove anything to you.

[SciFiAuthor]

I was something before I was born, SF.  I don't know what but even at an infantile age, I knew my life on Earth was only a continuation of a much longer life but for some reason the details of prior existence were wiped clean when I was born or very shortly thereafter. 

Not me, I simply didn't exist. I have no such feelings of anything other than that. But, I also keep an open mind and don't immediately discount anyone's experiences, I don't doubt that God is so warped as to pull that one on folks. I am not the be all and end all and really have no idea what existence is.

Trouble is, if this all is something more than the seemingly unthinking, cold orgy of fornication and death that the universe appears to be, then I have a problem with the person that created it on a fundamental level. I've been sitting out here for 40 years watching people die of ass cancer and alzheimer's and the occasional bear dragging a baby off and mauling it. I have a bone to pick with the "creator" over his ethics, or, if you will, I could think up and pull a better, more ethical universe out of my ass. Give me the controls for a bit, I'll fix it.

Sure there is a lot of bad in this universe but there is also a lot of beauty and good.  It is a mixture of heaven and hell, so to speak.  Why do bad things happen?  I don't know but I'm just an insignificant flea maybe I'll know when I die.  Yeah that old saying, paraphrased, we cannot fathom the ways of God.  I know it sounds like a cheap excuse.  Believe me,  I'll want answers to the same questions that you have been asking when I die.  Thing is I know there is something more.  Call it faith if you want.  We all have to take our own personal journey and I certainly can't prove anything to you.

I don't really see beauty the way most people do. I see the reality of what I'm looking at. You see a mountain range, I see electromagnetic waves bouncing off of big rocks that often kill mountain climbers. You see love, I see a predictable chemical reaction in the brain that can change on a dime and a divorce results. But what I can't explain is consciousness, ugly though it is.

Let's not lie, Hitler and Jeffrey Dahmer were consciousneses too and there is every indication, scientifically, that God wired them to be that way, the sadistic fuck. Even worse are the screaming schizophrenics that hallucinate horrific shit their entire lives and live in insane fear every moment of their illness. Yeah, god certainly loves them, but I digress.

My point is that the very idea of placing consciousnesses into the conditions of this universe is profoundly unethical in the same way that it would be unethical for us to put a sentient AI into a flawed simulated universe created by a computer, which we are mere decades from being able to do. We will become someone else's God through our technology and be able to simulate universes too. And I guarantee you that we'll do a whole hell of a lot better of a job than God did. 

[SredniVashtar]

Christianity saved my life and made me whole again. I was a horrid person with murderous proclivities, drowning in a sea of evil until Jesus took hold of me.

I can`t worry about the unbelievers, but I do pray for all of them.  You seek life insurance...health insurance? How about ETERNAL LIFE insurance? 

You were a horrid person? Anyway, who wants to live forever? What an awful thought. It's only because something is perishable that makes it valuable in the first place. Perhaps you prefer plastic flowers, but most people don't. And just try to imagine what eternal life would mean in the first place: unbearable boredom, listening to angels singing hosanna all bloody day. No thanks. Eternal life is a curse not something to be wished for.

[Richard Groyper]

Christianity saved my life and made me whole again. I was a horrid person with murderous proclivities, drowning in a sea of evil until Jesus took hold of me.

I can`t worry about the unbelievers, but I do pray for all of them.  You seek life insurance...health insurance? How about ETERNAL LIFE insurance? 

Murderer? Lying is very unbecoming of a Christian. Jesus grabbed you by the pussy and now you're a 'good' person? I've heard some whoppers in my day...but this takes the cake. hahahaha!

[SredniVashtar]

Hahaha hypocritical pompous dandy I own completely, as I contemplate the lily in my medieval hand.  But we are down to charges of wasting time, so I shall sum up:

The idea that we can walk out our front doors every morning with a closed, comprehensive intellectual system based on materialism is a modern one, and has been achieved only by jettisoning questions of duty and purpose, or reducing them to interpersonal ethics.  This is a cheap substitute for the rich inner life our ancestors enjoyed.  It is attractive because it is comprehensive, but it is comprehensive because it is simple.  And uninspiring -- you guys really need to come up with some better eucharist than the daily trudge to the recycle bin.

Where you see hypocrisy, I see the inevitable consequence of trying to make absolute truths that spring from a universal Intelligence, in my poor understanding of them, fit my imperfect world.  If everything suddenly popped into place, I'd be sure I'd done something wrong.  Thankfully, my world-view (as you call it) is a great, cluttered library of often-contradictory sources I consult to inflame or console as needed -- it is glorious.  Yours is a powerpoint presentation.

It is a very strange creature indeed who will abandon the contemplation of the Divine, to which he set his brightest intellects for centuries, just because his new toys don't show him some kindly father figure peeping back at him from a distant Kolob.

Keats once accused Newton of unweaving the rainbow, of reducing all that subfusc mysticism to cold hard facts. That's usually the reaction of people like you, who get their velvet pantaloons in a twist if they have to reassess their views about the world. Alan Watts used to say there are two sort of people: prickly and gooey, and you are so gooey you drip all over the place.

Atheists (not a term I like, incidentally) don't say there is no god, they merely say that the case has not been proven. Which it hasn't, categorically. Theists do so much limbo dancing to try and prove their point that it's a wonder they don't get a crick in the neck. Science is gradually filling in the blanks, and if you find objective, verifiable information about this planet and the universe dry and lacking in poetry then I feel sorry for you. If you can look at the images from the Hubble telescope without awe then you are the one lacking imagination. Yeah, I'd far rather contemplate the approximations of a bunch of illiterate peasants two thousand years ago!

And to say that this 'closed intellectual system' as you call it is attractive because it is simple just shows how little of it you know or understand. Religion is popular because it can be taught to a child of two, and people struggle to develop their intellectual horizons beyond that elementary stage. The appeal of a science-based approach is the joy of discovery, of having an open mind. Religion doesn't want that at all, in fact it fears new information that will force them to do a bit more tap-dancing to shore up their shaky position.

You will note (if you step back a minute) that, though I've adopted rhetorical excesses here for entertainment's sake, the posture is one of humility -- I'm not the one chucking Milton out as a childish fable.  O tremble, Shreddy, tremble for that arrogance!

I don't know who you were entertaining, presumably yourself. This whole screed is redolent of the sort of masturbatory self-indulgence appropriate to someone who presumably flounces about their bed-sitting room dressed as cardinal, giving blessings to the sparrows and squealing the Miserere in a thin, reedy tenor. I'm sure those buskins look simply divine on you.

Nunc dimittis

[SciFiAuthor]

You were a horrid person? Anyway, who wants to live forever? What an awful thought. It's only because something is perishable that makes it valuable in the first place. Perhaps you prefer plastic flowers, but most people don't. And just try to imagine what eternal life would mean in the first place: unbearable boredom, listening to angels singing hosanna all bloody day. No thanks. Eternal life is a curse not something to be wished for.

I've often wondered this myself. Why would anyone want eternal life? I understand that death is something some people fear, so it's helpful for them to have something that takes the edge off it. But I personally find the notion of not being able to die no matter what a bit terrifying. Welcome to heaven and no matter what you do, there's no way out ...