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Grover Norquist: Defender of the 47%?

Started by Pragmier, September 20, 2012, 02:39:58 PM

Pragmier

This article at the Americans for Tax Reform site is critical of Dem Tim Kaine who's running for Senate in Virginia for suggesting everyone should pay something in income taxes. There appears to be a real conundrum here - doesn't "skin in the game" suggest a tax increase that most Reps have vowed to fight? And instituting a minimum tax, that only affects the poor, I don't see how that is politically feasible.

onan

Quote from: Pragmier on September 20, 2012, 02:39:58 PM
This article at the Americans for Tax Reform site is critical of Dem Tim Kaine who's running for Senate in Virginia for suggesting everyone should pay something in income taxes. There appears to be a real conundrum here - doesn't "skin in the game" suggest a tax increase that most Reps have vowed to fight? And instituting a minimum tax, that only affects the poor, I don't see how that is politically feasible.

As I understand the Romney/Ryan plan, People earning 2-3 mill will have a tax decrease of around 3.5 percent. People earning around a million will get roughly a 1 percent decrease. Whereas most middle class will have an increase of around 2 percent.

Grover Norquist never gave a shit about anyone earning under a mil... just my opinion.

Quote from: Pragmier on September 20, 2012, 02:39:58 PM
This article at the Americans for Tax Reform site is critical of Dem Tim Kaine who's running for Senate in Virginia for suggesting everyone should pay something in income taxes. There appears to be a real conundrum here - doesn't "skin in the game" suggest a tax increase that most Reps have vowed to fight? And instituting a minimum tax, that only affects the poor, I don't see how that is politically feasible.

When there are only 2 parties, there are opinions all over the place in each one.  The thinking with this is that too many people don't pay any Federal income tax, and thus are a constant vote for ever more handouts.  The theory goes that if true, eventually we will have a tyranny of the dependent class over the productive class, and there can never be true budget reform until complete bankruptcy.  This is resonating with a lot of people.  I'm for whatever it takes to eliminate much of the spending, probably most of the spending - it's clearly way out of control.

Reagan is the one that eliminated a bunch of lower income earners from the income tax rolls entirely - with his Tax Reform Act of 1986.  It also got rid of abusive tax shelters and lowered the ordinary income and capital gains rates for everyone.  This freed up wealth to go from non-productive shelters to more productive investments, with the resulting income to be taxed at the new lower lower rates, instead of sheltered income not taxed at all. 

A lot of this freed up money found it's way into funding the rise of Silicon Valley...

Quote from: Paper*Boy on September 20, 2012, 06:07:09 PM

A lot of this freed up money found it's way into funding the rise of Silicon Valley...

I disagree with this statement. SV was built on tax dollars and the value of the yen at the time.

Our company could only have made it with Venture Capital and American oportunity and know how.  Same with the others I'm familiar with.

I will say we sold some software to the NASA and the military - less than 20% of revenue, and we got some of our smart engineers from Europe and a few from Asia - around 10% of them.  We had customers in Europe and Japan, I think they would have bought our stuff pretty much regardless of exchange rates.  None of this was unusual.

This was starting around 1990.  Were you there?.

I was there for a little while in the 90s, but I found it too densely populated for me.

Tax Dollars:
1. They had a large concentration of universities where you could get a good Computer Science/Engineering education for less than $4000 per year.
Other "clusters of training" such as U-Illinois/Chicago/Rose-Hulman/Purdue/Indiana/Wisconsin,  or MIT/Harvard/Yale, and Virginia/North Carolina still had high tuition (as well as more geographic separation).
Duekmejan and Wilson kept education costs low and math/science training within reach of the average family.

2. Livermore Labs produced a large need for high-end computing and federal dollars.

3.  Federal investment in research projects at local universities grew. The research university patent machine took off.

The low yen
At the time the yen was 80 to the dollar and interest rates in Japan were .1 % so Japanese companies were looking for places to park their investment dollars. They had the memory market and were always around to fund memory/hardware/storage projects/patents.


Ben Shockley

Quote from: Mind Flayer Monk on September 21, 2012, 11:29:33 AM
...Tax Dollars:
1. They had a large concentration of universities where you could get a good Computer Science/Engineering education for less than $4000 per year.[i.e., subsidized education -Ed.]
Other "clusters of training"...[were impeded by] high tuition (as well as more geographic separation).
Duekmejan and Wilson kept education costs low and math/science training within reach of the average family.
3.  Federal investment  in research projects at local universities grew. The research university patent machine took off.
You, sir, obviously understand what Pres. Obama meant about "you didn't build that [extensive social, financial, and material infrastructure necessary for the startup and continued success of your business]."
Good show, MFM!   [applause, applause]

See that, P*B?


And every American should take a pledge that whenever they see Grover Norquist, they will kick him in the 'nads.   Regardless of politics.   He just looks and sounds like a miserable punk who needs to be put out of everyone's misery.

Eddie Coyle

Quote from: Ben Shockley on September 21, 2012, 03:08:38 PM



And every American should take a pledge that whenever they see Grover Norquist, they will kick him in the 'nads.   Regardless of politics.   He just looks and sounds like a miserable punk who needs to be put out of everyone's misery.

         What's funny about him is that he basically was accused of being a "log cabiner" for years...and when he finally married at age 48 to a Palestinian woman...the new rumors painted him as "Arabist".

     

Quote from: Ben Shockley on September 21, 2012, 03:08:38 PM
You, sir, obviously understand what Pres. Obama meant about "you didn't build that [extensive social, financial, and material infrastructure necessary for the startup and continued success of your business]."
Good show, MFM!   [applause, applause]...

But he didn't say 'you didn't build that alone', we could have all agreed with that.  What he said - 'you didn't build that' - was mocking, dismissive, devisive, telling, and wrong.

And yes, tax rates have a big impact on whether and where people invest.  The difference between what Obama has been doing and what Reagan did after that severe recession was that the Supply-Siders predicted what the outcome of their policies would be, and that's what happened (and the results the Ds predicted about those policies di samed not happen, yet they still continue to lie about the Reagan years). 

We are still waiting for Obama's predictions to pan out - and they just aren't.  And won't.  As has been shown many other times in the past, those policies just do not work.

I think it also needs to be mentioned that (Republican) governers Dukemeijan and Wilson were responsive to the needs of business in their education policies.
As well as they let real estate developers build in the area.

Ben Shockley

Quote from: Pragmier on September 20, 2012, 02:39:58 PM
This article at the Americans for Tax Reform site is critical of Dem Tim Kaine who's running for Senate in Virginia for suggesting everyone should pay something in income taxes.
This just in:
Asked about this very thing on Friday's "Hardball" on MSNBC, Kaine "clarified" that he is just "open to all proposals."

Still beating a dead horse:
In re Pres. Obama's observation that entrepreneurs aren't personally responsible for the infrastructure that let them get where they got:

Quote from: Paper*Boy on September 21, 2012, 05:04:53 PM
But he didn't say 'you didn't build that alone', we could have all agreed with that.  What he said - 'you didn't build that' - was mocking, dismissive, devisive, telling, and wrong.
P*B, I'll give you credit for staying on-message.   But I think you know damn well what the man meant.   Honestly, how "ambiguous" can the second-person singular pronoun "you" be?
At this point, you're either just fighting for the sake of fighting, or just clinging onto what some right-wing talking head has told you that you're supposed to be offended by, because you're afraid to consider the ramifications of their being wrong about all the other stuff they've told you.
Dude-- go with your gut on this.   Admit that there is an important place for collective responsibility and action.   I think you just admitted ("could have all agreed with") that anyway.   Stop trying to find some insidious baby-killing stealth message in everything the scary Obama Man says!

BobGrau

I thought at first that Grover Norquist was a new name for the Nooron.

analog kid

Quote from: onan on September 20, 2012, 03:24:44 PM
As I understand the Romney/Ryan plan, People earning 2-3 mill will have a tax decrease of around 3.5 percent.

Under the Ryan plan, Romney's taxes would be below 1%. While yours is above 30%.

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