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Mormons

Started by anagrammy, January 29, 2011, 12:56:45 PM

b_dubb

i would rather have a Mormon next door than a Scientologist

Marc.Knight

Quote from: b_dubb on January 30, 2011, 10:32:42 PM
i would rather have a Mormon next door than a Scientologist





anagrammy

2.  Black people were not allowed to hold the preisthood until it was politcally expedient to do so after the civil rights movement.  The original stance was that blacks were somehow unclean.  And, wouldn't ya know it, just in time, God cleansed all their blood good enough to allow them to hold the preisthood about 1978.  Elder Bruce R. McConkie, a powerful elder of the church at the time said “we should forget everything that has been said in the past on this topic.“  Amazing coincidence.  I call BS.

[/quote]

Thanks, General, I was going to ask you why you decided to leave.  You might be interested in this interview with Le Grand Richards in which he states the circumstances under which the "Negro" was allowed to receive the priesthood.  I have shortened it and draw attention to the part where Richards states that Native Americans are still expected to become white if they are faithful. And also note the interviewer asks conversationally about blacks not being valiant in the pre-existence.  The whole idea of a group of old white guys deciding which races can have God's blessins and power is astonishing to me.   You can see the whole article on the internet at

http://www.lds-mormon.com/legrand_richards.shtml

WALTERS: Now when President Kimball read this little announcement or paper, was that the same thing that was released to the press?

RICHARDS: Yes.

WALTERS: There wasn't a special document as a "revelation", that he had and wrote down?

RICHARDS: We discussed it in our meeting. What else should we say besides that announcement? And we decided that was sufficient; that no more needed to be said.

WALTERS: Was that the letter you sent out to the various wards?

RICHARDS: And to the Church; and to the newspapers, yes.

VLACHOS: Will that become a part of "scripture"?

RICHARDS: Yes, I've already thought in my own mind of suggesting we add it to the Pearl of Great Price, just like those last two revelations that we've just added.

WALTERS: Will this affect your theological thinking about the Negro as being less valiant in the previous existence? How does this relate? Have you thought that through?

RICHARDS: Some time ago, the Brethren decided that we should never say that. We don't know just what the reason was. Paul said, "The Lord hath before appointed the bounds of the habitations of all men for to dwell upon the face of the earth," and so He determined that before we were born. He who knows why they were born with black skin or white and so on and so forth. We'll just have to wait and find out.

WALTERS: Is there still a tendency to feel that people are born with black skin because of some previous situation, or do we consider that black skin is no sign anymore of anything inferior in any sense of the word?

RICHARDS: Well, we don't want to get that as a doctrine. Think of it as you will. You know, Paul said "Now we see in part and we know in part; we see through a glass darkly. When that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away, then we will see as we are seen, and know as we are known." Now the Church's attitude today is to prefer to leave it until we know. The Lord has never indicated that black skin came because of being less faithful. Now, the Indian; we know why he was changed, don't we? The Book of Mormon tells us that; and he has a dark skin, but he has a promise there that through faithfulness, that they all again become a white and delightsome people. So we haven't anything like that on the colored thing.

WALTERS: Now, with this new revelation - has it brought any new insights or new ways of looking at the Book of Abraham? Because I think traditionally it is thought of the curse of Cain, coming through Canaanites and on the black-skinned people, and therefore denying the priesthood?

RICHARDS: We considered that with all the "for's" and the "against's" and decided that with all of that, if they lived their lives, and did the work, that they were entitled to their blessings...."

*****

Anagrammy


Lena

polygamy is stupid. most men cant even please 1 women as good and often as she needs it. ;D ;D

b_dubb

yeah but only because women are so difficult ;)


Wow not at all what I expected when I clicked on this thread. I was going to come here and and post some message like "why do you americans have some obsession with obamas birth certificate 1. What f*cking difference does it make 2. Sorry to say it but it seems suspiciously racist." I mean  isn't it really just a bunch of pissed off white guys who cant stand the idea of a black president(ugh just saying). The whole topic is a little low brow, and especially to be discussed in such an awesome forum  8)
Anyways , then I started reading, and what a very interesting thread. Thanks so much Anagramy for you're links. The article about Beck's religiously motivated bullshit rally was informative. While reading the article I was afraid, very afraid, so much power given to that thing called Beck. Next came the mormon bomb. I also have some very first hand experience with mormons. I witnessed my best friends struggle with mormon parents. He was kicked out of home at the age of 15 for refusing to go to church. Excuse the pun, but he went through hell with those people. For years his parents bore their testimony to him. Eventually he had to excommunicate himself to prove he wasn't coming back. I'll never understand him even giving shit about those crappy parents. I wouldn't want too faced fake people like that as my neighbours. Mormons are all smiles and thank yous, however, all the while they believe that without their religion you're going to hell.

anagrammy

Michael V--could you please move this Mormon thread to it's own title.  People seem interested and it's a worthwhile discussion.  You could call it Mormon Cosmology and Mitt Romney.

Thanks

Anagrammy

MV/Liberace!

Quote from: anagrammy on January 30, 2011, 10:55:37 PM
I have shortened it and draw attention to the part where Richards states that Native Americans are still expected to become white if they are faithful.
what... do you mean you disagree with this???


j/k

analog kid

Quote from: Do you think it was angels? on January 30, 2011, 09:12:24 PMthe cognitive dissonance required to maintain a strong faith and continually rape children.  How do they do it?  Are they secretly atheists?

/facepalm

The General

I'd reply more in this thread but my wives are getting impatient with me spending so much time on Coastgab.

Gotta run, here comes one now!

b_dubb

i like the commercials the mormons sometimes air.  always labeled CLDS.  see ...we're just like you normal folk. 

i think if we did a side by side comparison ... you'd find catholicism is pretty damn flawed as well.  if the Pope would just tell people to start using condoms, that would solve a shit ton of problems right there

onan

Quote from: b_dubb on January 31, 2011, 02:30:45 PM
i like the commercials the mormons sometimes air.  always labeled CLDS.  see ...we're just like you normal folk. 

i think if we did a side by side comparison ... you'd find catholicism is pretty damn flawed as well.  if the Pope would just tell people to start using condoms, that would solve a shit ton of problems right there

It seems to me that no matter what choice of spirituality is chosen there is some level of magical thinking involved. Yeah the catholics certainly have their moments; a strange jewish tradition is Kaparot... check that one out when you have a chance... then think of kfc.

I do want to add though... I get kinda worried about how judgemental I become. I mean... although my posts may not come across this way... I am kind of a live and let live guy.

valdez

Quote from: b_dubb on January 31, 2011, 02:30:45 PM
i like the commercials the mormons sometimes air.  always labeled CLDS.  see ...we're just like you normal folk. 
Quote from: Marc Knight on January 30, 2011, 10:29:40 PM
Joseph Smith was 21 years old when he did most of his "divine translation" to start the religion.  I do not know a lot about the church doctrinally, but the basis of the faith was created from an adolescent mind.
About fifteen years ago they had some of the best commercials on television.  Here's the thing about "divine" inspiration:  it usually reads well.  The Book of Mormon is a mess.  I can't find one paragraph in that book that has cadence and rhythm.  Completely un-poetic.
     Alma 14-26: "And Alma cried, saying..."  Alma cried would do.  You don't need the "saying".
     Nephi 16-36: "And thus they did murmur against my father..."   Murmur?  Murmur?  It worked for R.E.M.  Not working here.  The book is filled with stuff like this.  And if God was dictating to me and he got to the part about Moroni I would have to tell him, "hey, wait a minute.  Moroni?  Thats the guy's name?  Are you kidding?"
     I do like the bicycle white shirt tie thing.  That's cool.

4 Mormons with helmets on fixie bicycles
cool

onan

Not a mormon, never was. Did have a few friends in hs that were mormon. Never pushed it on me, as a whole were much nicer than certain other packs of protestants.

I dunno if its common practice or if it just pertains to where I grew up but one morman family, the husband lost his job, and the mormon community helped the family financially as well as socially for many months until the guy got another job. Never seen lutherans do that.

The General

Quote from: onan on January 31, 2011, 09:06:43 PM
I dunno if its common practice or if it just pertains to where I grew up but one morman family, the husband lost his job, and the mormon community helped the family financially as well as socially for many months until the guy got another job. Never seen lutherans do that.

That really is where they have their shit together.  They definitely help their own.  Down and out members get vouchers to go get free food at a warehouse that looks like a Grocery Outlet called the Bishop's Warehouse.  And they just love to clean up people's yards, shovel people's snowy walk ways, help seniors, etc.  Just don't drink any refreshments they offer you.  (brainwash kool-aid.)

anagrammy

Yes, all that do good stuff makes you glow until you tell them you are leaving the church because you no longer believe.  Then apostate cooties take over and they act like whatever bit you might bite them.  There's a lot of pain and hurt, but there's also a lot of humor.  Like this little jewel, made up by some of us wicked apostates looking up stuff on the Mormon genealogy site:

THE JOSEPH SMITH QUIZ 

1. How many women did Joseph Smith marry while he was alive besides Emma? A: thirty-two.

2. How many of these women were older than him? A: five

3. How many of these women were in his peer group of 30-40 years of age? A: eight

4. How many of these women were 21-29 years of age when he married them? A: nine

5. How many were less than 20 years of age when he married them? A: eleven

6. How many were already married to other men when he married them? A: seven

7. How many of these women filed affidavits stating their marriage to Joseph Smith included sexual intercourse? A: thirteen

8. How old was the youngest girl that he married? A: fourteen

9. What was her name? A: Helen Mar Kimball

10. Her birthday? A: August 28th, 1828

11. The date of her marriage to him? A: May 1843

12. His age on that date? A: thirty-eight

13. Would you let your fourteen year old daughter marry a thirty-eight year old man?

14. What kind of thirty-eight year old man would want to marry a 14 year old girl?

15. Number of references to his wives other than Emma on the JosephSmith.net website sponsored by the LDS Church? A: zero

16. Why zero?


Sources:
FamilySearch.org




onan

Quote from: anagrammy on January 31, 2011, 10:36:36 PM
Yes, all that do good stuff makes you glow until you tell them you are leaving the church because you no longer believe.  Then apostate cooties take over and they act like whatever bit you might bite them.  There's a lot of pain and hurt, but there's also a lot of humor.  Like this little jewel, made up by some of us wicked apostates looking up stuff on the Mormon genealogy site:


Yeah I get it you hate mormons... but take a breath... I believe you there is some some serious crap that needs fixin, now. But it isn't all mormons. And you wanna see people distance themselves... look at Dennis MIller when he turned conservative or Ariana Huffington when she turned liberal. We are all tribal and when people that have sang the same songs as us stop singing, everyone of us gets nervous.

I am not apologizing for the bad stuff, just not all the mormons are bad stuff.

Bosco

How come I didn't learn any of this by watching Big Love ?  :-)

onan

Quote from: Bosco on January 31, 2011, 11:06:14 PM
How come I didn't learn any of this by watching Big Love ?  :-)

because Paxton is a scientologist ;D

Quote from: onan on January 31, 2011, 04:01:52 PM
a strange jewish tradition is Kaparot... check that one out when you have a chance...

Used to bike past that on my way to work. Old timey religion!

anagrammy

Big Love shows a lot of the unusual beliefs but does it in such a way that you would miss it if you weren't looking for it.   They would not have the big audience they enjoy if they started spouting off about their plans to become gods and goddesses in the after life.  They would offend protestants if they talked about Joseph Smith reporting that God said all other churches were an abomination and he should join none of them. (not to worry--he tried to join the Methodist church 8 years later.  They rejected his application due to his criminal conviction for being a conman)   They would offend Catholics if they shared the fact that the definitive Mormon Doctrine, once considered one of the Big Five church books which should be on every Mormon mantle, listed the Catholic Church as "See Whore of All the Earth"

I am a collector of weird beliefs.  That's why I like Coast to Coast.  I hear of some crazy pig-worshipping religion out in New Guinea, I want to know more.  Just like some people collect music or bottle caps.  In the other dimension, I am a college instructor teaching Cultural Anachronisms.  Nothing whets my appetite like an urban legend and Mormonism abounds with these.  Rather than be strident about the harm/evil done (because I share the view that religion in general has a terrible past when it comes to delivering what it promised), I'll tell you how crazy beliefs morph into urban legends.  Call me weird, I think it's fascinating:

Orthodoxy:  We lived in a pre-existence with God.
Folklore:      We got to choose our parents.  We were assigned based on our faithfulness in the pre-existence.
Orthodoxy:   Infants who die came down to get a body, but were already perfect, so immediately went on to the Celestial Kingdom.
Folklore:      Infants who die can choose to come back to the same mother if they want to. That's why we must keep having children. Folklore:      Mormons  must have as many children as possible to keep the spirits from being forced into non-Mormon homes, or to India.
Folklore:      Mormons shouldn't cry at funerals.  It indicates a lack of faith that their child was perfect and following God's plan.

OK- now here's how that played out in the life of one of my neighbors.  Jane's only child died at 18 months.  His picture was in every room in the house.  Jane told me she wanted him to know he was part of her family.  She later said she wanted him to know she wanted him to come back to her.  Jane announced suddenly that she was pregnant and having a baby shower.  A couple of weeks after the shower, in her fifth month, she went to each neighbor and told us it was not a pregnancy, that she had wished to be pregnant so hard so she could have her baby back that she suppressed her periods.  She told me all this with no expression on her face whatsoever.  Her husband told me at church the next week that she was so heavily medicated she felt nothing... and that was better than her normal state of mind.

This is a good example of how a crazy belief becomes harmful.  It kept this mother from grieving normally and letting go of her child.  I had to go through losing a child and I'm sure some of you have.  It is awful, but there's no way out of it but through it.  Someone should have set her straight up that no one knows about that stuff, we're all just guessing down here and all we know is that her baby's gone and she may someday have another.  That's IT.  But no, she got mumbo-jumboed into standing at the door of a complete mental breakdown. 

There are more users of Prozac in Utah than any state in the union.  And most of them are women.

Anagrammy

Marc.Knight

I think most adherents to an organized religion do so for many reasons other than a faith in God or a belief in a particular doctrine. 


I believe most people pragmatically choose a religion today for very earthly benefits, such as for the satisfaction of a partner, marriage, familial dominance, business advantage, and a social structure to enhance some type of power.


There is absolutely no spiritual reason to belong to any type of organized religion.  At all.  Ever.


If you do, you might be considered a "good" or "bad" person by others, but nevertheless, you cannot pick or choose what you agree with in the religion.  You either take responsibility for it all, or not at all. 

b_dubb

reason for adherence to a religion: politically advantageous

HAL 9000

No Mormon thread would be complete without the definitive reference documentary known as:

Southpark S07E12
"All About Mormons"

You can get the episode by clicking  HERE



b_dubb

@Ana ... so sorry to hear about your loss

anagrammy

Quote from: b_dubb on February 01, 2011, 02:06:28 AM
@Ana ... so sorry to hear about your loss

Thanks, b_dubb.

Anagrammy

onan

Quote from: anagrammy on January 31, 2011, 11:41:48 PM

Her husband told me at church the next week that she was so heavily medicated she felt nothing... and that was better than her normal state of mind.

This is a good example of how a crazy belief becomes harmful. Someone should have set her straight up that no one knows about that stuff, we're all just guessing down here and all we know is that her baby's gone and she may someday have another.  ... she got mumbo-jumboed into a complete mental breakdown. 

There are more users of Prozac in Utah than any state in the union.  And most of them are women.

Anagrammy

I don't want to be insensitive, nor do I want to come off as the know it all mental health person. How people deal with significant loss is as varied as there are incidents of people who have suffered signicant loss. Mental illness is not as easy to treat as a broken leg. Depression and any connected psychosis could be the primary reason or they may be components of an umbrella of issues that caused this woman's break. I see many patients that express hyper-religiosity every week. I see many people with significant grief every week too. I think all religions are players in the realm of mumbo jumbo that inhibits professional therapy, then again I have seen many patients improve substantially with spiritual support from their community. One of the best therapists I know is also a minister with a M.Div.

I guess what I am getting at it this woman has a mental illness and the immense grief added to the picture probably caused a psychotic break. Would that not have happend had she not been part of that church? I dunno cuz life always throws curveballs, never seen it pitch anything else.

As to more prozac in Utah... they are also quite high in the Rx and use of diabetic medications is that a causal link as well. More analgesics does that also come under the blame of mormonism?

One reason, and this is purely conjecture, might be that Utah has a very poor mental health system. If that is the case then medical practioners are trying to stem the tide by treating mental health concerns by medication alone rather than conjunctive therapy... always a poor choice.

I too offer my sympathies for your loss, pain, and grief. I curse everyday for not having a magic wand.



anagrammy

Quote from: onan on February 01, 2011, 07:43:22 AM

One reason, and this is purely conjecture, might be that Utah has a very poor mental health system. If that is the case then medical practioners are trying to stem the tide by treating mental health concerns by medication alone rather than conjunctive therapy... always a poor choice.

I too offer my sympathies for your loss, pain, and grief. I curse everyday for not having a magic wand.

Yes, I totally agree.  And here is a link to another recent tragedy--a Mormon mother committing suicide and trying to take the children with her.  In New Mexico-- and she was using the pills they gave her to do it.  These tragedies are a combination of reasons, but that doesn't mean we can't work on one reason at a time.  My contention is that a subculture that tells women they cannot get to heaven without a man, and that their children will be given to someone else, such a woman if she believed that, it can contribute to a tipping point where she "would rather see them dead instead."  I wrote about the "rather see them dead" being a perfectly ok thought to have about your children because it was said in a speech by an "Apostle" about his own daughter.

http://www.cibolabeacon.com/articles/2011/02/01/news/doc4d477080b3160559466499.txt

Anagrammy

PS. I know the woman is Mormon from my other forum where one of the posters knows the family.

I doubt it is getting any press on your side of the border, but there is a very important case before the Supreme Court in Canada regarding polygamy, particularly in respect to the tiny (1000 souls) Mormon Fundamentalist community of Bountiful, British Columbia.  This is where a number of Utah polygamists resettled as the wagons were being circled there years back, and the British Columbia community spends a significant amount of it's tithing to support legal cases of their brethren in Utah.  If you go to google news and search on Bountiful, BC you will find hundreds of stories and editorials. 

Between the plentiful and primo pot, and the rampant polyamory, the party never stops in British Columbia  ;)

anagrammy

In response to several posters who have asked variants of the question WHY IS MORMONISM A CULT/SUBCULTURE? 

Below is a summary list of criteria which denote a cult. This is from the International Cultic Studies Association (ICSA)

1. The group is focused on a leader to whom members seem to display excessively zealous, unquestioning commitment. Typically, the leader is alive, but in some cases may be deceased, but his or her “message” (belief system, ideology, touted practices) is still upheld as the Truth, as law.
2. ‪Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.
3. ‪Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).
4. ‪The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry; leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).
5. ‪The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar; the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).
6. ‪The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which causes conflict with the wider society.
7. ‪The leader is not accountable to any authorities (as are, for example, military commanders, and ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).
8. ‪The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify the means (what members are expected to do). This may result in members participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, collecting money for bogus charities).
9. ‪The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt in members in order to influence and control them. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.
10. ‪Subservience to the leader/group results in members cutting ties with family, friends, and radically altering personal goals and activities that were of interest before joining the group.
11. ‪The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.
12. ‪The group is preoccupied with making money.
13. ‪Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.
14. ‪Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.
15. ‪The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group, believing there is no other way to be, and often fearing reprisals to self or others if they leave or even consider leaving the group.


This checklist will be published in the new book, Take Back Your Life: Recovering from Cults and Abusive Relationships by Janja Lalich and Madeleine Tobias (Berkeley: Bay Tree Publishing, 2006). It was adapted from a checklist originally developed by Michael Langone.

Michael D. Langone, Ph.D., a counseling psychologist, is ICSA’s Executive Director. He was the founder editor of Cultic Studies Journal (CSJ), the editor of CSJ’s successor, Cultic Studies Review, and editor of Recovery From Cults. He is co-author of Cults: What Parents Should Know and Satanism and Occult-Related Violence: What You Should Know. Dr. Langone has spoken and written widely about cults. In 1995, he received the Leo J. Ryan Award from the "original" Cult Awareness network and was honored as the Albert V. Danielsen visiting Scholar at Boston University.

Thanks to Jim Huston for publishing this on www.exmormon.org in the Recovery From Mormonism (RfM) forum

Anagrammy

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