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The Ukraine CrySis - Crimea River

Started by pate, September 04, 2022, 06:48:47 PM


WOTR

Quote from: SredniVashtar on October 31, 2022, 07:22:56 AMI answered your question, now you answer mine. Are there any circumstances in which you would accept that war is justified?

Sure. Why not? The Ukraine might be a recent example. The Ukrainians should absolutely declare war. And some support should even be offered. Just not a blank cheque with no will to ever negotiate peace until a single twit of a politician (Zelensky) gives his permission. If we are footing the bill now and are expected to foot it for the next decade, then possibly we get a bit of a say to negotiate a possible peace. I suppose where we differ is the extent of risk that we see as reasonable, the amount of support that needs to be offered, the willingness to end the damn war and admitting that we may have played a tiny, itty bitty role in provoking what happened.

Another good example recently brought up here would be Iraq. Absolutely justified that the Iraqis declared war when their country was invaded. Too bad we didn't offer them military aid.  8)

We can cite the 1857 Indian mutiny. Pretty sure that was justified.

Reaching farther into the past, the American war of independence. Canada was dumb to not turn on the crown at the same time.

But here we are after having burned the white house down in the war of 1812 instead of telling Britain to get bent during the war of independence. This is a great song that recounts the war of 1812 without the usual propaganda and spin.*

*Apologies to our American posters.  :-\

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7jlFZhprU4

WOTR

Quote from: Silphion on October 31, 2022, 01:47:33 AM

Pointing out NAFO operatives is likely now seen to be on par with providing material to wikileaks and treasonous.


Silphion

Quote from: WOTR on November 01, 2022, 01:17:52 AMSure. Why not? The Ukraine might be a recent example. The Ukrainians should absolutely declare war. And some support should even be offered. Just not a blank cheque with no will to ever negotiate peace until a single twit of a politician (Zelensky) gives his permission. If we are footing the bill now and are expected to foot it for the next decade, then possibly we get a bit of a say to negotiate a possible peace. I suppose where we differ is the extent of risk that we see as reasonable, the amount of support that needs to be offered, the willingness to end the damn war and admitting that we may have played a tiny, itty bitty role in provoking what happened.

Another good example recently brought up here would be Iraq. Absolutely justified that the Iraqis declared war when their country was invaded. Too bad we didn't offer them military aid.  8)

We can cite the 1857 Indian mutiny. Pretty sure that was justified.

Reaching farther into the past, the American war of independence. Canada was dumb to not turn on the crown at the same time.

But here we are after having burned the white house down in the war of 1812 instead of telling Britain to get bent during the war of independence. This is a great song that recounts the war of 1812 without the usual propaganda and spin.*

*Apologies to our American posters.  :-\

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7jlFZhprU4

The Ukrainians would not even "declare war" on the Donbas without US/NATO backing, let alone Russia. A hand puppet like Zelensky has no real agency in the matter. The entire scenario is caused and will continue as a proxy war between the US and Russia.

Did Canada actually consider military aid to Iraq when they were invaded in 2003 by the US led coalition? At least Chretien had the good sense to stay out of that one.

Canada was created in great part by the United Empire Loyalists. They had every right and good sense to stay out of the Great American Experiment in Democracy.

It was the British Army that set fire to the White House and this was because the Americans offered no reparations for having rampaged scorched earth through Toronto.

No apologies, please. That would be too Canadian.

SredniVashtar

Quote from: WOTR on November 01, 2022, 01:17:52 AMSure. Why not? The Ukraine might be a recent example. The Ukrainians should absolutely declare war. And some support should even be offered. Just not a blank cheque with no will to ever negotiate peace until a single twit of a politician (Zelensky) gives his permission. If we are footing the bill now and are expected to foot it for the next decade, then possibly we get a bit of a say to negotiate a possible peace. I suppose where we differ is the extent of risk that we see as reasonable, the amount of support that needs to be offered, the willingness to end the damn war and admitting that we may have played a tiny, itty bitty role in provoking what happened.

Another good example recently brought up here would be Iraq. Absolutely justified that the Iraqis declared war when their country was invaded. Too bad we didn't offer them military aid.  8)

We can cite the 1857 Indian mutiny. Pretty sure that was justified.

Reaching farther into the past, the American war of independence. Canada was dumb to not turn on the crown at the same time.

But here we are after having burned the white house down in the war of 1812 instead of telling Britain to get bent during the war of independence. This is a great song that recounts the war of 1812 without the usual propaganda and spin.*

*Apologies to our American posters.  :-\

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7jlFZhprU4

Oh dear, this is getting embarrassing for you - MD-level reasoning, you must have adjoining cubicles and discuss this over the water cooler. All the examples you have cited have not been about declaring war at all, they have been about defending their own countries from outside aggression. Zelensky isn't a single twit of a politician, he is their elected representative and I have no doubt that the majority of Ukrainians don't want peace at any price and give in to Russian bullying. The West isn't supporting Ukraine (calling it The Ukraine, by the way, is just another way you are swallowing Russian propaganda) out of the goodness of their hearts, they are fighting a proxy war to contain Russian aggression, rather like the way the Nazis and the Communists took sides during the Spanish Civil War.

None of those examples are about declaring war, they are just about not surrendering. You don't have any choice in those situations, anyone can decide to fight if they are given no choice.

SredniVashtar

Quote from: Dr. MD MD on October 31, 2022, 11:26:35 AMOh yeah? Come here and say that.  >:(

I won't hold my breath. Like I said before Britain should fight this war themselves. Oh, that's right...Putin would squish you like a bug without our help. You really are pathetic. 🙄

Happy to. PM me your address.

SredniVashtar

Quote from: K_Dubb on October 31, 2022, 10:41:07 AMNo, we drive a hard bargain.  Churchill signed away the Empire for some old destroyers, if I remember correctly, because Roosevelt had him over a barrel and anyway like a typical lying Englisher he didn't think he'd have to keep that promise.  But we made him do it.

For the rest of the world, the defeat of the British Empire by Roosevelt is far more significant than what we did in Europe.


This is why you are a nation of lousy bastards. Just imagine nickle and diming the future of the world just so you can work off a petty little grudge against your colonial betters. You're the world's biggest imperialists, polluting the world with your rotten films, Coca-Cola, and Donny Osmond. You're like bloody Gandhi, who was quite happy to let his country be raped by the Japs rather than stand up for himself, the skinny little, nappy-wearing bastard. I think that's why I hate you so much, you're just an anaemic Gandhi, with all your anti-British rodomontade. Pfui! (that's me spitting on you, by the way!)


Dr. MD MD

Quote from: SredniVashtar on November 01, 2022, 09:21:17 AMHappy to. PM me your address.

You can't even fight the Russians yourself. How could you handle me?!

Dr. MD MD

Quote from: SredniVashtar on November 01, 2022, 09:28:22 AMThis is why you are a nation of lousy bastards. Just imagine nickle and diming the future of the world just so you can work off a petty little grudge against your colonial betters. You're the world's biggest imperialists, polluting the world with your rotten films, Coca-Cola, and Donny Osmond. You're like bloody Gandhi, who was quite happy to let his country be raped by the Japs rather than stand up for himself, the skinny little, nappy-wearing bastard. I think that's why I hate you so much, you're just an anaemic Gandhi, with all your anti-British rodomontade. Pfui! (that's me spitting on you, by the way!)



Smack! (That's me slapping you across your stupid face...hard.)

SredniVashtar

Quote from: Dr. MD MD on November 01, 2022, 09:32:14 AMYou can't even fight the Russians yourself. How could you handle me?!

What a surprise, the pussy pussies out.

SredniVashtar

Quote from: Dr. MD MD on November 01, 2022, 09:34:10 AMSmack! (That's me slapping you across your stupid face...hard.)

You could barely reach my kneecaps.

Dr. MD MD

Quote from: SredniVashtar on November 01, 2022, 09:35:59 AMYou could barely reach my kneecaps.

Nah! It's pretty easy with you in that wheelchair. 🙄

Dr. MD MD

Quote from: SredniVashtar on November 01, 2022, 09:35:03 AMWhat a surprise, the pussy pussies out.

Yes you do and then you expect us to fight all your battles for you. Wankers! 🙄

SredniVashtar

Quote from: Dr. MD MD on November 01, 2022, 09:46:52 AMYes you do and then you expect us to fight all your battles for you. Wankers! 🙄

Still waiting for your address, big boy. You're the one that started it, don't back out now.

SredniVashtar

Quote from: Dr. MD MD on November 01, 2022, 09:45:44 AMNah! It's pretty easy with you in that wheelchair. 🙄

Ah, you're only threatening me because you think I'm paraplegic and therefore easily bested?

Dr. MD MD

Quote from: SredniVashtar on November 01, 2022, 09:56:32 AMStill waiting for your address, big boy. You're the one that started it, don't back out now.

Just come to Martinez, California. I'll meet you there and you'll meet your demise there.

Dr. MD MD

Quote from: SredniVashtar on November 01, 2022, 09:57:46 AMAh, you're only threatening me because you think I'm paraplegic and therefore easily bested?

I had heard you were wheelchair bound but even if you weren't you'd be easily bested.

SredniVashtar

Quote from: Dr. MD MD on November 01, 2022, 10:01:41 AMI had heard you were wheelchair bound but even if you weren't you'd be easily bested.

In that case why are you backing out of a physical confrontation if it's so easy for you to kick my ass?

Dr. MD MD

Quote from: SredniVashtar on November 01, 2022, 10:02:22 AMIn that case why are you backing out of a physical confrontation if it's so easy for you to kick my ass?

It would be too easy. For some reason I find it difficult to be afraid of British men.



Oy! You bare your teef at me an I'll knock 'em all out, Sunny Jim.  >:(

SredniVashtar

Quote from: Dr. MD MD on November 01, 2022, 10:10:43 AMIt would be too easy. For some reason I find it difficult to be afraid of British men.

No, you're just attracted to them. Your feeble attempt to offer me out to the car park was really just another of your gay fantasies about buggering me, you sordid repressed homo.

Dr. MD MD

Quote from: SredniVashtar on November 01, 2022, 10:19:49 AMNo, you're just attracted to them. Your feeble attempt to offer me out to the car park was really just another of your gay fantasies about buggering me, you sordid repressed homo.

You're the one who can't seem to help but go there always and therefore you're the repressed homo, like most of your countrymen.

pate

As a hypothetical scenario, and using the following article as reference:

A Real Plebiscite Election, or Fight the SNP

Quote from: https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2022/10/a-real-plebiscite-election-or-fight-the-snp/

A "plebiscite election" on Scottish Independence can only mean an election fought on that issue with the understanding that, if the election is won, Independence will be declared. It cannot mean anything else...

Should (through international meddling by the SeekRut Service Agents of the PFDRp, for instance) the particular MAPA goal of Scottish Independence (and subsequent annexation to the United States) by popular acclaim be achieved:  Would the Anglish attempt to reclaim their wayward colony by force or farce?

I axe only for a fiend and perhaps fiendish raisons des ĂȘtres...

Before any cries of "Off-Topic SPAM-ity SPAM" are raised, I shall at the end of this posting self-report.

-p

/self-reported:  could be construed as off-topic and/or Digital Rape

Roswells, Art

Quote from: SredniVashtar on November 01, 2022, 09:21:17 AMHappy to. PM me your address.

Uh oh, K_Dubb is going to scratch MD's eyes out in a fit of jealousy.

pate

I neither confirm nor deny that any Ancestral Holdings of Petroleum Products from the PFDRp might be involved in the following:

LNG ships waiting for higher EU prices to unload

Quote

Several ships loaded with liquefied natural gas (LNG) that have been circling off the coast of Spain are likely to stay there until late November, as they wait for European gas prices to go up, Reuters reported on Wednesday, citing industry sources...

But if they were, it would be nice to get a 100% cut of that action rather than my Standard Big Dog cut of 25%.

pate/K_Dubb 2024
"pate always steps up to the plate!"




/self-reported:  tangentially off-topic, Nautical Shore?

pate

Uh-oh:

New Report Warns America's Woke Military "Would Struggle in a War"

Quote from: https://www.danielgreenfield.org/2022/10/new-report-warns-americas-woke-military.html

...The takeaway from the Heritage report that "the current U.S. military force is at significant risk of not being able to meet the demands of a single major regional conflict while also attending to various presence and engagement activities" should be a grave warning and a wake up call...

This does not bode well for wider US involvement in The Ukraine, to say nothing of any potential Sino-Asiatic Adventures...

Nautical Shore?

-p

/self-reported:  US Armed Forces readiness levels have nothing to do with The Ukraine or the Conflict there

Dr. MD MD

Quote from: Roswells, Art on November 01, 2022, 02:45:10 PMUh oh, K_Dubb is going to scratch MD's eyes out in a fit of jealousy.

Seems likely.

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: pate on November 01, 2022, 03:06:18 PMUh-oh:

New Report Warns America's Woke Military "Would Struggle in a War"

This does not bode well for wider US involvement in The Ukraine, to say nothing of any potential Sino-Asiatic Adventures...

Nautical Shore?

-p

/self-reported:  US Armed Forces readiness levels have nothing to do with The Ukraine or the Conflict there

Hmmmm. Heritage Foundation. That would be the completely none partisan and independent 'pick a rage' think tank thingy?

Some of it will please some here: Apparently the US's nuclear capability is not up to muster. Presumably it can only eradicate all life on the planet three times over instead of four.

Laughable take on the navy. It has the second biggest air force (not to be confused with Airforce) in the world. That doesn't include surface ships and the submarine fleet that don't launch fixed wing aircraft.

So, nil point as a piece of serious 'research'.

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: pate on November 01, 2022, 02:39:50 PMAs a hypothetical scenario, and using the following article as reference:

A Real Plebiscite Election, or Fight the SNP

Should (through international meddling by the SeekRut Service Agents of the PFDRp, for instance) the particular MAPA goal of Scottish Independence (and subsequent annexation to the United States) by popular acclaim be achieved:  Would the Anglish attempt to reclaim their wayward colony by force or farce?

I axe only for a fiend and perhaps fiendish raisons des ĂȘtres...

Before any cries of "Off-Topic SPAM-ity SPAM" are raised, I shall at the end of this posting self-report.

-p

/self-reported:  could be construed as off-topic and/or Digital Rape


Annexed by the US? Highly improbable. Quite apart from the Scots if they chose independence, but rejoin the EU, wouldn't then decide "Oh yeah  we left the UK, we'll be ruled by the Yanks instead across the pond", most US people (read 'taxpayer'; even those who actually know where Scotland is) would soon get agitated when the cost of having Scotland as a 51st state sinks in.

pate

Quote from: Yorkshire pud on November 01, 2022, 07:48:08 PMHmmmm. Heritage Foundation. That would be the completely none partisan and independent 'pick a rage' think tank thingy?

Some of it will please some here: Apparently the US's nuclear capability is not up to muster. Presumably it can only eradicate all life on the planet three times over instead of four.

Laughable take on the navy. It has the second biggest air force (not to be confused with Airforce) in the world. That doesn't include surface ships and the submarine fleet that don't launch fixed wing aircraft.

So, nil point as a piece of serious 'research'.

Please note that I have not picked a dog in "The Ukrainian CrySis" fight.

I accept that whatever site that article is from is non-partisan and independent.  WOuld you care to provide a Partisan Site's article that refutes any of the points made?  Or are you citing YOURSELF as the source of some weak refutation?

I note that it does not take multiple nuclear weapons to knock out a Surface Fleet of any Nation.

Check this out:


And that is rather dated material, I assume that the channel I randomly found that vidya on the 'Tubes is also non-partisan and independent.  If not, why I invite your facile refutation of Naval Powers and their inherent vunerabilities.

You might start your search on Surface Vessel Invulnerability here:


I think theythe hobo elitists perfected the Surface Vessel Invisibility Cloak with that one, Nautical Shore?

Cheers
-p

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