20151113 - Terrorism in Paris - Open Lines - Live Show Chat Thread

[Yorkshire pud]

Not true...there are clearly ISIS controlled areas...on that map.

...but what about elsewhere in the world? Indonesia? Africa? Europe? Canada? USA?

[chefist]

...but what about elsewhere in the world? Indonesia? Africa? Europe? Canada? USA?

ISIS claimed responsibility...they have lands that they are claiming is their home for their caliphate...that is where you hit them, and hit them HARD! we are just giving them pin pricks right now...

[Yorkshire pud]

ISIS claimed responsibility...they have lands that they are claiming is their home for their caliphate...that is where you hit them, and hit them HARD! we are just giving them pin pricks right now...

Sigh: If you watch the video games on the news you'll see the occasional display of ordnance hitting a target, that is true. BUT what you don't see are the invisible tiny cells (two or three) who are spread out over the planet. Self contained, self sufficient; their training back in ME done and complete. These cells are waiting for their opportunity. As the PIRA said when they unsuccessfully tried to kill Thatcher in the 80's at Brighton. 'We only have to be lucky once, you have to be lucky all the time'.

Turning the ME into glass will work, but only to a point; it won't eradicate a philosophy.

[henge0stone]

Go fuck yourself kid.  The only war I sat out was the Panama thing.  And that was only because my team was back after 3 years of drug interdiction. (R&R and training up for the next dust up.)  This last go around in the sand was my last go around.  Go fuck yourself.  Oh, wait.  I already told you to do that.  I must be getting old.

Thank you for your service. For the record I am a big pussy but I know plenty of people in my generation who served since millennials are born in the 1980s to 2000s  I think its a safe bet to say the majority people in Afghanistan and Iraq are millennials, certainly not all of them though.

I was specifically talking about that old caller who said every millennial should service 2 years because they have no backbone or whatever. Given that we have the largest military in the world I would say its just a dig on young people.
I can't wait till I get old and can talk crap about the younger generation.

[Meister_000]

I've taught Muslim kids, know their families and they're good people. They're average Americans, not fanatics, the people I know, at least. But, trying to leave Islam is a lot harder I think than trying to leave Catholicism. I got fed up with the hierarchy of the church and left. No one cared, certainly not in  my family and the only ones who might have cared was the local church who are now minus my weekly envelopes. Same is generally true for Judaism, Buddhism and I know very secular Sikhs and Hindus. But Islam is so much a fabric of it's practitioners' lives, especially amongst fundamentalists,  from the way women are made to dress and behave to the way people come to the local mosques 5 times a day to pray, to the Sharia law that governs their lives, down to Halal and what they can eat,  that I think it's so minutely knit into the person's psyche that the very thought of leaving is terrifying. It's not called a "surrender" religion for nothing. I'm sorry to say, but for many people it means surrendering independent thought, plus being bullied by others into feeling sinful and out of favor with Allah if one deviates, which makes it easy to recruit moldable young people to attack others without the slightest twinge of humanity. Religious brainwashing plus peer pressure are formidable means of cranking out terrorists.

This is impotant and insightfull stuff, no small matter.  Islam breeds fear and lying/deceit in and amoung it's own people as a rule. Many feel and are trapped and daily terrorized by their own fellows and family members.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali [Black African female Muslim writter], wrote a book about many of the things you're confirming Caller, titled "The Caged Virgin", wherein she essentially begs the West to help them get out of the trap that is Islam.

[VtaGeezer]

The only thing that changed that cultural believe was the absolute fear of the overwhelming power demonstrated at Hiroshima and Nagasaki...I'm not advocating using nuclear weapons,  but there will have to be the same fear of power brought forth upon the enemy.  Now the targets are civilian in nature...the Ally leaders in WWII knew that bringing as much hell to civilian populations was the only way to stop their desire to declare war...

Japan had a culture of obedience to authority.  That's what really allowed them to so handily glom onto Western ways once Hirohito ordered them to accept defeat and obey the victors.  There's no such authority in Sunni Islam. Islam has no institutional hierarchy to re-interpret the Prophet's word in a 21st century context. For Islamists, what the Quran says is what it means. Anyone who teaches differently is pre-condemned in the Quran. 

The only way to stem Islamist extremism is to take down the Arab oil states and track down and seize their money; that's the head and heart of the snake.  They are the 7th Century with laptops and Airbuses.  The Saudis have been buying their way to the control of mosques around the world for 50 years.  They've funded terror since Arafat and made it an Arab cultural fixture.  That navel-gazer Batchelor on with Art played right into their fundie ideology by calling jihadi butchers the "warrior class".  It'll take generations to get the rot out of world Islam.  And they have FAR more influence on Wall St and by extension in Washington than we imagine.  I don't think we or any Western nation have either the national will or the leadership to do take up this fight, because it would require the ruthlessness of WWII.

[chefist]

  I don't think we or any Western nation have either the national will or the leadership to do take up this fight, because it would require the ruthlessness of WWII.

Agreed...it took Britain a while into WWII to make the decision as well...then the fire bombing started...

Interesting historical note...fire bombing (incendiary devices) is illegal under the UN Convention...but nuclear weapons are not....amazing...

[paladin1991]

Thank you for your service. For the record I am a big pussy but I know plenty of people in my generation who served since millennials are born in the 1980s to 2000s  I think its a safe bet to say the majority people in Afghanistan and Iraq are millennials, certainly not all of them though.

I was specifically talking about that old caller who said every millennial should service 2 years because they have no backbone or whatever. Given that we have the largest military in the world I would say its just a dig on young people.
I can't wait till I get old and can talk crap about the younger generation.

Should do your bit.  Then you can talk shit to everyone who didn't wear a uniform.  It's what I do. 

Okay, we're cool.  But I also believe that National Service should be universal.  One doesn't have to be combat arms in my view.  National Service could be working in work battalions to upgrade America's infrastructure, and other shit ala the Work Progress Administration.   

[albrecht]

Hmmm, and remind us why the ME is in the shit state it now finds itself? Might it be because the West has destabilised it over the last 10-15 years or so, so that every murderous vermin has a foothold with nothing to stop him, and the vermin no incentive other than kill anything they decide is their enemy?

Riiight because Islam, and the region, has always been so peaceful! Heck Obama's middle name, and a popular one throughout Muslim lands, Hussein is named after a guy martyred/killed in a vicious sectarian battle of Karbala way before evil white Europeans messed around in the area. And ask Africans how 'nice' Muslims are over the centuries, and now. If you think Muslims treat Jews, Christians, or evil 'whitey' badly you should see what they do to each other in their fights! A very peaceful lot, we should accelerate their movement into our countries indeed. Though it is true that the Brits do have lots of explaining to do regarding the region and the destabilization throughout modern history. So do we to an extent but nothing comparatively to your country.

[The Coincidence Kid]

The US just bombed the shit out a neutral hospital in Afghanistan, and our good friends Saudi Arabia, with our $ and weapons, just blew up 130 people at a wedding in Yemen, 80 of whom were women. Our good friends Saudi Arabia, who love ISIS and hate Iran.

Stuff like that happens daily. But derrrrr, why do they hate us? Nuke 'em!

We're a bunch of tribalist morons. Fucking barf.

[Yorkshire pud]

Riiight because Islam, and the region, has always been so peaceful!

Roughly how many Saudi/Islam terrorist sponsored attacks on the West were there pre 9/11? And what did Bush and  Blair do? Well, between them they decided that SH and Bin Laden were best mates (they actually loathed each other) and carpet bombed Iraq where there were no WMD as they knew, and Afghanistan where a good many of the targets were civilians living under the oppression of the Taliban! After that and not finding BL, the next thing was to step back and watch the non contingency plan unfold. Various 'springs' later with no or little support and we have a lot of pissed off Arabs with lots of access to firearms (imported and left by us) exercising their version of the 2nd amendment. SH was a murderous bastard, and it's right he's gone, but there was no after plan.

Heck Obama's middle name, and a popular one throughout Muslim lands, Hussein is named after a guy martyred/killed in a vicious sectarian battle of Karbala way before evil white Europeans messed around in the area. And ask Africans how 'nice' Muslims are over the centuries, and now. If you think Muslims treat Jews, Christians, or evil 'whitey' badly you should see what they do to each other in their fights! A very peaceful lot, we should accelerate their movement into our countries indeed. Though it is true that the Brits do have lots of explaining to do regarding the region and the destabilization throughout modern history. So do we to an extent but nothing comparatively to your country.

And what of the nice Christians who rampaged through the ME? Or the equally nice ones who took pot shots at each other and civvies in NI and on mainland Britain? Long before Bush invented trrrism.

[albrecht]

Roughly how many Saudi/Islam terrorist sponsored attacks on the West were there pre 9/11? And what did Bush and  Blair do? Well, between them they decided that SH and Bin Laden were best mates (they actually loathed each other) and carpet bombed Iraq where there were no WMD as they knew, and Afghanistan where a good many of the targets were civilians living under the oppression of the Taliban! After that and not finding BL, the next thing was to step back and watch the non contingency plan unfold. Various 'springs' later with no or little support and we have a lot of pissed off Arabs with lots of access to firearms (imported and left by us) exercising their version of the 2nd amendment. SH was a murderous bastard, and it's right he's gone, but there was no after plan.


And what of the nice Christians who rampaged through the ME? Or the equally nice ones who took pot shots at each other and civvies in NI and on mainland Britain? Long before Bush invented trrrism.

My only issue with the Christians who 'rampaged' through the ME centuries ago, in response to the Muslim attacks, enslavement, and piracy is that they didn't finish the job and, unfortunately, many Christians are often too kind to enemies. Something the US inherited, although we aren't officially Christian, we also tend to try to see the good in people/cultures and even pay them after we fight them ('Mouse That Roared' hilariously comes to mind now.) Screw that. Set the Serbs and Russians on them and be done with it. Won't be pretty but? If they won't modernize or grow up then screw them.
ps: you guys were too soft on the terrorists also. Same problem as USA. Sympathies, second-guessing, trying to see good in everybody, accommodate, etc. RUC shouldn't have been abolished and no quarter given to terrorists.

[Yorkshire pud]

My only issue with the Christians who 'rampaged' through the ME centuries ago, in response to the Muslim attacks, enslavement, and piracy is that they didn't finish the job and, unfortunately, many Christians are often too kind to enemies. Something the US inherited, although we aren't officially Christian, we also tend to try to see the good in people/cultures and even pay them after we fight them ('Mouse That Roared' hilariously comes to mind now.) Screw that. Set the Serbs and Russians on them and be done with it. Won't be pretty but? If they won't modernize or grow up then screw them.
ps: you guys were too soft on the terrorists also. Same problem as USA. Sympathies, second-guessing, trying to see good in everybody, accommodate, etc. RUC shouldn't never been abolished and no quarter given.

I have known two people (oddly both of them bosses) who were in the army and both served in NI in the 70-80's. And they said that it was far worse than the press ever really told. Basically it was sanitised before the press were given a story because the reality was too horrific to make public. The problem (as it is with the Muslim mob) is identification; Is 'that' man or woman your enemy or an innocent Catholic/ Protestant? It was easy to overlook an 'innocent' and turn around and have an Armalite pointing at them.

[malachi.martini]

'They're a death cult Art, bent on world domination.' - Guest

'We need to KILL THEM ALL' -Art

'How can we stop the Twitters from recruiting terrorists?'

'They must be on the dark web.'

'Heroes rise!'

'We need a coalition'

'Is New York on edge?'

Absolute theater of the absurd last night, Megyn Kelly level nuance.

[Yorkshire pud]

Absolute theater of the absurd last night, Megyn Kelly level nuance.

Glad I didn't hear it. Nothing matches the uninformed when it comes to generating reactions.

[henge0stone]

And what of the nice Christians who rampaged through the ME? Or the equally nice ones who took pot shots at each other and civvies in NI and on mainland Britain? Long before Bush invented trrrism.

What about the Muslims who rampaged into Spain? Or when they rampaged into Israel, it was Christian along with the rest of the Roman Empire (which had fallen at that point). Or how about when they rampaged into eastern Europe? Or the Middle East for that matter, since the entire religion came about through conquest.

You can make the same argument about the spread of Christainity through conquest, however at least in Christianity the scripture and the life of Christ had nothing in it about attacking and killing all other religions, yet the Quaran does and Mohammad did lead a conquest across the Middle East.

What it boils down to is the Muslims who are acting as terrorists are following what it says in the Quaran.
Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing...

Another site says it translates to,
“And when the sacred months are passed, kill those who join other gods with God wherever ye shall find them; and seize them, besiege them, and lay wait for them with every kind of ambush.”

I have heard that this part was possibly edited and originally said something about love and peace. I haven't been able to find much information on it though. Even if that were so Islam would still be left with the issue of having a conqueror as a religious head.

[VtaGeezer]

My only issue with the Christians who 'rampaged' through the ME centuries ago, in response to the Muslim attacks, enslavement, and piracy ...

The Muslim invasions of Europe occurred centuries before (Spain/France) the Crusades, and then in E. Europe centuries after the Crusades ended. Constantinople didn't fall to the Muslims until the mid-15th Century, almost 300 years after Jerusalem fell to the Crusaders.  The Crusades were initiated by Pope Urban to get the jobless knights and mercenaries out of W Europe where they were marauding and wrecking the hereditary order.  When the Crusades were kicked off, there was no significant warring between Christian Euros and Muslim Arabs.  There was a thin veneer of protecting Christian pilgrims to the Holy Land involved, but the Crusaders killed everyone when they took Jerusalem, Muslim, Jew and Arab Christian alike. Some practiced their killing skills on Euro Jews along the way. 

[nbirnes]

Absolute theater of the absurd last night, Megyn Kelly level nuance.

Perfectly put.

[henge0stone]

The Muslim invasions of Europe occurred centuries before (Spain/France) the Crusades, and then in E. Europe centuries after the Crusades ended. Constantinople didn't fall to the Muslims until the mid-15th Century, almost 300 years after Jerusalem fell to the Crusaders.  The Crusades were initiated by Pope Urban to get the jobless knights and mercenaries out of W Europe where they were marauding and wrecking the hereditary order.  When the Crusades were kicked off, there was no significant warring between Christian Euros and Muslim Arabs.  There was a thin veneer of protecting Christian pilgrims to the Holy Land involved, but the Crusaders killed everyone when they took Jerusalem, Muslim, Jew and Arab Christian alike. Some practiced their killing skills on Euro Jews along the way.

So its okay for Muslims to invade Europe without provocation but since there was so significant war (Spain was still occupied) its not okay for the Christians to invade the Middle East? Why not judge both cultures fairly.

[FLLFlash]

You did a great job of avoiding this place on your actual birthday, dude.

Sorry for this as I later found out why.

[albrecht]

I have known two people (oddly both of them bosses) who were in the army and both served in NI in the 70-80's. And they said that it was far worse than the press ever really told. Basically it was sanitised before the press were given a story because the reality was too horrific to make public. The problem (as it is with the Muslim mob) is identification; Is 'that' man or woman your enemy or an innocent Catholic/ Protestant? It was easy to overlook an 'innocent' and turn around and have an Armalite pointing at them.

Yeah, I've heard it was pretty bad there. Still, I say, no surrender. It is the weakness inherent in the British and Americans to 'give in' too easily for moral reasons. I'm not saying we can't fight- we can and best at it. But the victories we can't seem to deal with. And also pull punches and are often too humane. To really beat an enemy you need to dehumanize them and not wring your hands over collateral damage or how one handles prisoners and terrorists (heck, that kind of damage is usually what finally beats a people.)

Oddly enough the Irish are very friendly people as are N.Irish Prods, Scots, etc. I've found. Why I'm for nationalism and separation. It makes better neighbors, usually (there are aberrant examples, obviously invading each other) but it is the mixing of unlike people, culture, and religion that gets into trouble, or 'troubles.' Live and let live- in our own countries. If you emigrate than adapt, and accept, the new culture.

Identification: Muslim, Arab, Persian, South Asia, N.African---> get out. Or at least deal with being profiled, questioned, spied upon, etc and be ready to go the extra mile to prove your loyalty. Police should err on the side of "sorry we shot him" rather than another Muslim committing mayhem. They don't like the extra oversight or being thought of being disloyal or an enemy? Leave. Or prove you're not. Grass on the other Muslims, protest in the street against all the Muslim atrocities, don't send money back home, send your girls to a public secular school, rat out your Imam, marry someone from our countries instead of sending back to Pakistan (or elsewhere) for a wife, don't let your women wear garb, no honor killings, etc.

[FLLFlash]

I can't keep up with this thread. every time I refresh the page, there's one or two additional pages. Gotta call it a night.
Have a good weekend everyone.

I was so upset last night I had the same problem. I could never gain traction. I'm finishing up now.

[FLLFlash]

Kind of like Luongo was doing for a while there.  Goalie is the most stressful position.  You've got the world on your shoulders.  Last line of defense.  You're out there the whole game, every shift.

To say nothing of quickly moving pucks heading for your face.

One of the biggest mistakes I ever made was manning a lacrosse goal. I never did and never will do that again.

[albrecht]

So its okay for Muslims to invade Europe without provocation but since there was so significant war (Spain was still occupied) its not okay for the Christians to invade the Middle East? Why not judge both cultures fairly.

Though controversial a good book on the subject is "God's Battalions: The Case for the Crusades" by Rodney Stark, Phd. Controversial but these days with all the politically correct histories and hand-wringing over how we can better accept and change our laws and culture to accommodate a backwards, savage people and their religion it is refreshing.

[FLLFlash]

Barfly, Obama bows to every world leader.  He's the King of Bows.   

Anything to diminish the office.

[FLLFlash]

Hemingway loved cats with six toes. They have because of the polydactyl gene, they can still mother or father six-toed cats. The Hemingway Home keeps up a selective breeding program for the cats, which live on as one of the most endearing aspects of the writer's legacy.

Polydactyl or Hemingway?

You are non-prolific. Come in here and post more!

[Lt.Uhura]

Absolute theater of the absurd last night, Megyn Kelly level nuance.

I also took issue with Art's "nuke 'em" statements, but later in last night's show he clairfied that was an "emotional" rather than "logical" response to yesterday's events. 

Barbaric warfare can be met with equally barbaric retribution, or we can consider alternative strategies, such as as previously suggested here by VtaGeezer, "The only way to stem Islamist extremism is to take down the Arab oil states and track down and seize their money; that's the head and heart of the snake."

Meanwhile, intelligence agencies worldwide regularly monitor communications and social media among ISIL, but it doesn't seem very effective in heading off these targeted attacks.  If there is chatter in the hive why aren't we better prepared to intercept it?     

[FLLFlash]

hahahah have to save this before you edit it hahaha

BOOM!

Only Rossy is allow to sanitize his posts.

[FLLFlash]

Who are YOU to judge? It is another culture and therefore one we should appreciate and accommodate. Clearly it is a better cultural ideal than our evil Western patriarchal, sexist, classist, racist, capitalist culture. We need to change our laws, civil rights, and culture to accommodate them and accept millions of them into our countries and, as Obama says, streamline the vetting to get them here more quickly.

Well put, sadly.

[albrecht]

To say nothing of quickly moving pucks heading for your face.

One of the biggest mistakes I ever made was manning a lacrosse goal. I never did and never will do that again.

What is crazy/awesome is the great Jacque Plante was the first goalie in the NHL to wear a mask and that was in 1959. And that was after he got hit in the face with blood all over and came back out, with mask, to play the rest of the game. I think you must have to be insane to be goalie, especially back then.