Art Bell

[Yorkshire pud]

Pre-knotted? Or do you want to do the honors?

How many more times? It's honours.


Yes.

[onan]

I'd stop wasting my time debating.

Noted. Thanks.

[nooryisawesome]

So Bob Bain in midnight fans is out calling redacted "fake midnight" and urging people to listen to his show. He's implying he is heir to arts legacy.

[albrecht]

I am kind of tired continuing to discuss medicine with you. You read a few stats and think you know something. Yes lots of people get hospital acquired infections. Mostly because as time goes by bacteria become more and more resistant to disinfectants and antibiotics. You think it's bad now give it another 3 generations.

When one considers that almost 200 million patients are in a hospital a year the percentage of deaths is less than .0025%. The chances of many of these patients surviving for an length of time without treatment would be a much worse outcome.

But hey spout a few statistics with big numbers and one thinks they know what the fuck they are talking about.

You're also the guy that makes statements that psychiatry isn't a science. You use the argument relating changes in the DSM even though I have explained to you that the DSM isn't meant for the laymen. But you always operate on the concept that because you are smart no one else is, unless they agree with you.

The amount of research in neurosciences is mind boggling and beyond your level of comprehension. That isn't a slight, as someone not working in that field daily you couldn't possibly keep up.

I'm not disagreeing with you only that the numbers are higher than one might suspect and even the CDC warns against it but it not a flash-point for the new like a terrorism case or gun violence. I say unless it is necessary one should avoid surgery, for example. Like anything there is a risk/reward calculation. So some elective surgery I might say don't do because even the risk of just anesthesia etc. And, anecdotal reference here, I have two surgeons and several doctors (one GP two pediatric cardiologists) in my family and they agree and also say unless really necessary try to limit drugs due to potential side-effects and the system of getting one another drug to counter side-effects of another. Again risk/reward calculation.

Re: psychiatry you can see the numbers for yourself of certain prescribed drugs vs placebo or cognitive therapy. But I'm not saying it is not useful in many cases. Even if universal archetypes or not everything is about one's mother. My point to you about psychiatry is when it is abused, for profit, as a way to make children/prisoners pliable, or for political purposes- as it has been done in the past and simply another pill might not solve a person's problem.

I'm sure the neurosciences are coming up with all kinds of things. Even if I don't understand them all some of them are fascinating (Reith Lectures from 2003, old, but cool stuff to listen if you haven't heard them.) I think we are way past the day when anyone, even the most genius, which I am not, can really be a renaissance man or "know everything," even in one discipline. It will be interesting to see how new discoveries and technology can relate with the society, particularly the legal system, we have built.

[norland2424]

So Bob Bain in midnight fans is out calling redacted "fake midnight" and urging people to listen to his show. He's implying he is heir to arts legacy.

who? 

[popple]

So Bob Bain...

Who?

[Ciardelo]

So Bob Bain in midnight fans is out calling redacted "fake midnight" and urging people to listen to his show. He's implying he is heir to arts legacy.

He sounds too much like Dr. Phil. He's out.

[Robert Ghostwolf's Ghost]

How many more times? It's honours.

Yes.

Another profligate waste of a perfectly good "u" that could have been put to better use elsewhere.  Fortunately, I have a good supply, so STFU and get stuffed! 

[nooryisawesome]

who? 

Lol he has a podcast and runs the other forum linked to at artbell.com. Over at that forum they are all complaining about redacted,going to calm in to complain, just general redacted hate.

[SciFiAuthor]

Noted. Thanks.

Onan, I suspect that you are malnourished. I prescribe a pack of cigarettes.

[sorefinger]

I am kind of tired continuing to discuss medicine with you. You read a few stats and think you know something. Yes lots of people get hospital acquired infections. Mostly because as time goes by bacteria become more and more resistant to disinfectants and antibiotics. You think it's bad now give it another 3 generations.

When one considers that almost 200 million patients are in a hospital a year the percentage of deaths is less than .0025%. The chances of many of these patients surviving for an length of time without treatment would be a much worse outcome.

But hey spout a few statistics with big numbers and one thinks they know what the fuck they are talking about.

You're also the guy that makes statements that psychiatry isn't a science. You use the argument relating changes in the DSM even though I have explained to you that the DSM isn't meant for the laymen. But you always operate on the concept that because you are smart no one else is, unless they agree with you.

The amount of research in neurosciences is mind boggling and beyond your level of comprehension. That isn't a slight, as someone not working in that field daily you couldn't possibly keep up.

What, are you too stupid also to discriminate what you read?

[onan]

I'm not disagreeing with you only that the numbers are higher than one might suspect and even the CDC warns against it but it not a flash-point for the new like a terrorism case or gun violence. I say unless it is necessary one should avoid surgery, for example.

Re: psychiatry you can see the numbers for yourself of certain prescribed drugs vs placebo or cognitive therapy. But I'm not saying it is not useful in many cases. Even if universal archetypes or not everything is about one's mother. My point to you about psychiatry is when it is abused, for profit, as a way to make children/prisoners pliable, or for political purposes- as it has been done in the past and simply another pill might not solve a person's problem.

I'm sure the neurosciences are coming up with all kinds of things. Even if I don't understand them all some of them are fascinating (Reith Lectures from 2003, old, but cool stuff to listen if you haven't heard them.) I think we are way past the day when anyone, even the most genius, which I am not, can really be a renaissance man or "know everything," even in one discipline. It will be interesting to see how new discoveries and technology can relate with the society, particularly the legal system, we have built.

I agree that there is an abuse of several psychotropics. But it is much more complicated than it seems. If we could get lawsuits out of the equation things would probably change a great deal. Yet I am quite reluctant for that solution because many people do need recourse.

I don't work with children, I refuse to. Let me explain a common dynamic: Ineffective parents bring a child to see a psychiatrist, (much too late for any mild intervention) and psychiatrist has to make decisions with little actual time with child. If no treatment is offered and child gets worse (hurts self or others) the psychiatrist is liable. I see that dynamic everyday, and I only work with adults. Our medical system is broken. I make no defense against that claim. But it is what we have and (not that this is your stance) diet is not going to fix the problem.

With cognitive therapies, certain antidepressents, yes placebos in some circumstances are just as effective. Which does give credence to your belief that psychiatry is less than scientific. Unfortunately, unlike internal medicine we do not have specific tests to rule out malingering and liars. Well, in some instances we do, but it goes against the ethics of practice and if we charged for tests to ascertain truth telling the costs would be astronomical (even moreso than now).

To add, a little known and not want to be discussed point, antidepressants if taken for more than 6 months can actually engender depression by itself. Yay!

[albrecht]

I agree that there is an abuse of several psychotropics. But it is much more complicated than it seems. If we could get lawsuits out of the equation things would probably change a great deal. Yet I am quite reluctant for that solution because many people do need recourse.

I don't work with children, I refuse to. Let me explain a common dynamic: Ineffective parents bring a child to see a psychiatrist, (much too late for any mild intervention) and psychiatrist has to make decisions with little actual time with child. If no treatment is offered and child gets worse (hurts self or others) the psychiatrist is liable. I see that dynamic everyday, and I only work with adults. Our medical system is broken. I make no defense against that claim. But it is what we have and (not that this is your stance) diet is not going to fix the problem.

With cognitive therapies, certain antidepressents, yes placebos in some circumstances are just as effective. Which does give credence to your belief that psychiatry is less than scientific. Unfortunately, unlike internal medicine we do not have specific tests to rule out malingering and liars. Well, in some instances we do, but it goes against the ethics of practice and if we charged for tests to ascertain truth telling the costs would be astronomical (even moreso than now).

To add, a little known and not want to be discussed point, antidepressants if taken for more than 6 months can actually engender depression by itself. Yay!

Yah, like most things there are shades of gray and cost/benefit analysis. The children thing you got spot-on and I'm not even going to cast judgement because I'm not in their shoes. I can't imagine what it is to be a teacher, state facility, etc for abused or abandoned children and teens. I do know there was a big controversy and the stats about how much meds they give children and diagnose, to me, seems crazy. But maybe they do need it? I've also heard in prisons they often over-proscribed- but, then again, we also use our prison system, essentially, to be our psychiatric asylums, so maybe they are needed. But I'm suspicious that, now, in basically one generation, every other child has ADHD or some other psychological problem necessitating medication so early in life.

Again, there are some things like one's diet can help out. Not everything, and I don't mean supplements and vitamins quack-cures- etc but eating decent food in moderation, not getting fat or obese, getting exercise, cutting out the Cokes, etc can help people at least not get certain diseases or at least less risk of doing so.

[Rix Gins]

So Bob

Who?

[onan]

Yah, like most things there are shades of gray and cost/benefit analysis. The children thing you got spot-on and I'm not even going to cast judgement because I'm not in their shoes. I can't imagine what it is to be a teacher, state facility, etc for abused or abandoned children and teens. I do know there was a big controversy and the stats about how much meds they give children and diagnose, to me, seems crazy. But maybe they do need it? I've also heard in prisons they often over-proscribed- but, then again, we also use our prison system, essentially, to be our psychiatric asylums, so maybe they are needed. But I'm suspicious that, now, in basically one generation, every other child has ADHD or some other psychological problem necessitating medication so early in life.

Again, there are some things like one's diet can help out. Not everything, and I don't mean supplements and vitamins quack-cures- etc but eating decent food in moderation, not getting fat or obese, getting exercise, cutting out the Cokes, etc can help people at least not get certain diseases or at least less risk of doing so.

I pretty much agree with you. About diet, it is a no brainer that eating healthy is paramount to healthy living. However, diet is not the first thing to look at with mental illness. In many cases neither is medication.

[sorefinger]

Yah, like most things there are shades of gray and cost/benefit analysis. The children thing you got spot-on and I'm not even going to cast judgement because I'm not in their shoes. I can't imagine what it is to be a teacher, state facility, etc for abused or abandoned children and teens. I do know there was a big controversy and the stats about how much meds they give children and diagnose, to me, seems crazy. But maybe they do need it? I've also heard in prisons they often over-proscribed- but, then again, we also use our prison system, essentially, to be our psychiatric asylums, so maybe they are needed. But I'm suspicious that, now, in basically one generation, every other child has ADHD or some other psychological problem necessitating medication so early in life.

Again, there are some things like one's diet can help out. Not everything, and I don't mean supplements and vitamins quack-cures- etc but eating decent food in moderation, not getting fat or obese, getting exercise, cutting out the Cokes, etc can help people at least not get certain diseases or at least less risk of doing so.

+1

Why would onan ever believe nutrition would solve health problems? He'd be unemployed.  He's part of the problem that makes the healthcare system broken.

[albrecht]

I pretty much agree with you. About diet, it is a no brainer that eating healthy is paramount to healthy living. However, diet is not the first thing to look at with mental illness. In many cases neither is medication.

Yeah, but I can understand, not saying it is good, the idea of over-worked, underpaid staff "drugging up" patients/students or prisoners who arrive already messed up since I doubt we have the budget for real one-on-one, long-term help.
Though I'm not above CT about profits/prestige of some drug companies and even some doctors but I wonder if there are so much mental illness a result of something and not just better identification. Technology and over/immediate stimulation? Less social cohesion? Less extended- or even nuclear- families? Brainwashing (not in the literal sense) that makes us think everyone should be happy at all times and occasions?

[onan]

+1

Why would onan ever believe nutrition would solve health problems? He'd be unemployed.  He's part of the problem that makes the healthcare system broken.

I promote healthy choices in diet everyday. Unlike you, I have a license. Unlike you, I actually work with professionals.

[aldousburbank]

Why would onan ever believe nutrition would solve health problems? He'd be unemployed.  He's part of the problem that makes the healthcare system broken.

Yes, it's a known fact that the mortician lobby (Big Death) holds the secret to eternal life in a secret underground vault somewhere outside of Lubbock.

[starrmtn001]

So Bob Bain in midnight fans is out calling redacted "fake midnight" and urging people to listen to his show. He's implying he is heir to arts legacy.

Um, yeah.  That's the forum that banned me, and I still don't know why.  Go figure.

[norland2424]

Um, yeah.  That's the forum that banned me, and I still don't know why.  Go figure.

wait really? lol then the of rest of us would be fucked over there.

[weeberwubber]

I'm going with the theory that it's a ploy to get all us day-one Time Travellers to cancel our $5 grandfathered subscriptions so we'll have to re-sign up at the higher rate. It's not gunna work old man! I'm too teh smarts for that!

[BellBoy]

Last night, about a half hour before Art dropped the nuke, I went down to the pub, with some mates, for a night of hard core pint-pounding, followed by a midnight kebab of the most unsavory variety. I woke up this morning to a pounding headache, a more than a bit dodgy stomach and 100's of pages of turmoil, angst and recriminations... and maybe a handful of reasoned comments.

Having spent hours wading through this painful behemoth, there is still just one thing I can say... Fuck!

[cweb]

So Bob Bain in midnight fans is out calling redacted "fake midnight" and urging people to listen to his show. He's implying he is heir to arts legacy.

Cue the opportunists. Especially the ones that suck. Ugh.

[albrecht]

Yes, it's a known fact that the mortician lobby (Big Death) holds the secret to eternal life in a secret underground vault somewhere outside of Lubbock.

http://lubbockonline.com/texas/2015-01-31/texas-and-region
"A funeral home that sold Lee Harvey Oswald’s pine casket for $87,468 must return it to the accused presidential assassin’s brother, a judge ruled Friday."
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1963/06/the-undertakers-racket/305318/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1551983/Police-smash-Mafia-funeral-racket.html
"police smashed a racket that controlled funeral homes.

Ten people, including the head of the Sinesi clan, were arrested for extorting money from the city's 13 funeral homes and trying to build a monopoly in funeral arrangements and transport.

The racket, known as the "dear dead", had been operating in the city since the release from prison "

[popple]

Um, yeah.  That's the forum that banned me, and I still don't know why.  Go figure.

Did you use the same username over there as here? They may be banning people who appear on the BellGab memberlist.

[TigerLily]

Um, yeah.  That's the forum that banned me, and I still don't know why.  Go figure.

Seriously, Sister Starr? You were banned?  What did you post, nude pictures of Sredni Vashtar?

[norland2424]

Last night, about a half hour before Art dropped the nuke, I went down to the pub, with some mates, for a night of hard core pint-pounding, followed by a midnight kebab of the most unsavory variety. I woke up this morning to a pounding headache, a more than a bit dodgy stomach and 100's of pages of turmoil, angst and recriminations... and maybe a handful of reasoned comments.

Having spent hours wading through this painful behemoth, there is still just one thing I can say... Fuck!

so your saying you missed hoagies plea for us to save the network and his own show?

[ItsOver]

Cue the opportunists. Especially the ones that suck. Ugh.

Oh, geesh.  More from Jimmy Church. 

[aldousburbank]

Having spent hours wading through this painful behemoth, there is still just one thing I can say... Fuck!

Yeah it's like the whole joint is on bath salts today.