20150805 - Flat Earth Debate - Live Chat Thread

[slippingaway]

Has anyone else noticed that people that lead with "with all due respect" are just about to say some disrespectful shit.
That guy was a major douchenozzle.
His credentials: he has seen every Youtube video on the subject in the past 6-1/2 months. He has believed this bullshit for... 6 months.
I swear, John sounded like Nick Swardson, but this flat earther was too funny to be him!
The intrepid Doctor called it right when he started asking what happened to this guy 6 months ago.
John's little laugh after the doctor said something based on pure scientific fact, made me want to punch him. The doctor showed remarkable restraint.

This show didn't have much to offer on an educational level, but it sure was entertaining!  I hope John can find a good platform to voice his "beliefs", but I think even Dave would have called bullshit on him.

I say beliefs, because often times they contradict science.  It would have been a harder debate for the scientist to argue against holographic universe theory.

[ziznak]

ed dames was entertaining for a while so was hoaxland

[ziznak]

and i think i kinda like the science vs pseudoscience debate idea.... we just need astro-guy and mike bara on to "duke" it out... probly sound much like this show did

[CoherentBlast]

I was actually hoping for some flat Earth arguments that would challenge my  reasoning ability or provide interesting alternative/greater reality scenarios.  I wish Jon had been given more of an opportunity to explain his points, but it didn't sound like he had much intelligent to say anyway.

All he did was regurgitate bullet points of ridiculous theories, whilst ignoring fact and reality.
The Dr mentioned that he was greatly disappointed that anybody would insult our science history and further
waste their time on such nonsense. This "John" clown was a waste of time. The only positive thing was hearing
the good Dr. speak, even if it was interrupted by an immature and rude mouthpiece with a pseudonym 

I really hope Art forgets about him and doesn't give another invite when there are so many great potential guests
dying to get on his show.

[albrecht]

I enjoy sophistry and thought-experiments and people who try to defend/prove bizarre theories. And enjoy "crazy" people who totally believe their theories. But Jon was a little annoying, but I still liked the show. I don't listen to Art's shows for education (though also enjoy that when legit stuff is discussed) but for entertainment. I would've rather had a "earther" with more math and theories (there have been some models in the past that were interesting, ignoring of course that simpler usually, not always, is the better option it can be fun for mathematicians, theoretical physicists, or philosophers for bizarre thought-experimental talk and ideas. (Caveat: "quantum mechanics" is WAAAY over-used with regard to the new-aging types.)

[ziznak]

our astronomers here love hearing the word "quantum"

[GeorgieForPresident2216]

our astronomers here love hearing the word "quantum"

If there is anything that signals someone is a new aged, psychobabbling, pseudoscientific, possibly high-school diploma holding, 'intuitive,' unqualified physicist, it's the misapplication of the word 'quantum.'

[Lt.Uhura]

Jon was not the right man for the job.  He was somewhat articulate, but kept repeating the same points over and over, and spent most of the show emotionally defending his POV.   Throughout the "debate", I felt Jon's arguments were too generic, in other words he could just as easily been defending a "we are all aliens" theory.  I think debates work best when you have two people who are experienced in their field who can teach or inform their audience.  Someone simply spouting off their beliefs after having an epiphany 6 months ago is a pretty weak qualification for a guest spot on Art's show.

[Spinner]

Wonder if anyone that doubts this flat earth thing will actually read the book the guy referred us to? I include Art and the "science" guru in that wonder, most likely not...which confirms my belief that if something sounds crazy or different we turn off our minds instantly, and as the poor kid was trying to explain we maybe psychologically programmed to turn it off in childhood with the indoctrination of public thinking and public learning. IN order to find genius one mostly usually has to step outside the boundaries of public thinking and public beliefs, regardless of the outcome and vilification....it maybe the only real manner in which progress gets made.

+1
QuantumMystics, you have become one of my favorite posters here.
Keep 'em coming. 

[Spinner]

My brain is very weird and by default runs mostly into the woods of disagreement with everyone about nearly everything. Mostly, I just smile and act like I agree with them so that we don't end up hurling rocks at each other. To me, everyone is  something of a flat earther. Nonetheless, I try to act civil, kind, and not let them harsh my enlightenment mellow.  :

Good policy. I'm kind of like that as well, but it takes a great deal of effort to keep quiet and smile. 

[Lamont Cranston]

Just landed in the forum, and though I am somewhat skeptical of the Flat Earth Theory, I have an idea for when the Flat Earth Society mounts their first expedition to the Sun. It shouldn't be too hard to get there, since it's only 3000 miles from the Earth, but they should definitely go at night to avoid any injury.

Sunglasses, SPF 50 sunscreen would be good, too.

Other than that, it is nice that Art Bell is taking back the night. I've always thought it was unwise to accept substitutes.

Lamont Cranston

[Spinner]

Just landed in the forum, and though I am somewhat skeptical of the Flat Earth Theory, I have an idea for when the Flat Earth Society mounts their first expedition to the Sun. It shouldn't be too hard to get there, since it's only 3000 miles from the Earth, but they should definitely go at night to avoid any injury.

Sunglasses, SPF 50 sunscreen would be good, too.

Other than that, it is nice that Art Bell is taking back the night. I've always thought it was unwise to accept substitutes.

Lamont Cranston

Was that your comment that Art read on the air earlier tonight?

[Lamont Cranston]

Was that your comment that Art read on the air earlier tonight?

Maybe... I shot him an email late last night, but he never replies. If he mentioned it, I am flattered, since it's a spin off form a bad Polish joke I heard in the 1970's.

However if he ever replies to me, I'll have a heart attack. I don't expect him to, either, he must get 1000's of emails.

Glad he's back, needless to say. Even a C2C-Quality guest is interesting when they are interviewed by a pro.

[CantFindTVRemote]

Why does Art keep saying, "He sounds like a bright guy?" No! How? Where? This, for some reason, is the one thing that sticks in my throat like dry, white bread.

[Yorkshire pud]

Why does Art keep saying, "He sounds like a bright guy?" No! How? Where? This, for some reason, is the one thing that sticks in my throat like dry, white bread.

Agreed. Even bright people occasionally do stupid things, but to make stupid a lifestyle choice by believing the Earth is flat isn't bright. It isn't even half switched on.

It's a reasonable argument to convince me we'll never be visited by aliens from another planet; "These idiots really think their home planet is flat; and what's that? Angels and unicorns too, they're real in their minds? Let's skip this one"

[Lamont Cranston]

Was that your comment that Art read on the air earlier tonight?

Holy Cow. I just got up and listened to the beginning of the show. He did read my email.  Cool. Glad he appreciates a sort of dumb joke once in a while. After that Flat Earth dude, you sort of need to laugh, since that Flat Earth thing is just proof of how alienated and cynical people can get these days.

[phelps]

Sorry for keeping the thread open late, but I listen to the show the next morning and had to get a login to discuss this --

I think I know who "john" is.  I think that he is Eugene Mirman, comedian and voice actor.  I was listening to the show, and I kept thinking, "this guy sounds exactly like Gene from Bob's Burgers."  When I went through youtube looking at the things that Mirman posts, he is heavy into the skeptic movement, does podcasts with Neil Degrasse Tyson, takes on Scientologists, etc.

So, I think that we all experienced an exceptionally well-done piece of performance art.  I think that he is so familiar with the arguments that he does a better job of arguing it than people who actually believe it.

[SredniVashtar]

Sorry for keeping the thread open late, but I listen to the show the next morning and had to get a login to discuss this --

I think I know who "john" is.  I think that he is Eugene Mirman, comedian and voice actor.  I was listening to the show, and I kept thinking, "this guy sounds exactly like Gene from Bob's Burgers."  When I went through youtube looking at the things that Mirman posts, he is heavy into the skeptic movement, does podcasts with Neil Degrasse Tyson, takes on Scientologists, etc.

So, I think that we all experienced an exceptionally well-done piece of performance art.  I think that he is so familiar with the arguments that he does a better job of arguing it than people who actually believe it.

I shall have  to get round to listening to this as soon as I can. I always assumed that Flat Earthers were people who enjoyed having an argument rather than true believers. Some people enjoy arguing an indefensible position just for the hell of it, so your theory would make some kind of sense, whether it is correct in this case or not.

[Auslandia]

There should be an awards ladder for dumbest guest ever.  So far, this guy is the reigning champion.

[Jackstar]

There should be an awards ladder for dumbest guest ever.  So far, this guy is the reigning champion.

Even before he started babbling about how they're all Masons, he was in the lead, now he's a legend.

[aldousburbank]

There should be an awards ladder for dumbest guest ever.  So far, this guy is the reigning champion.

Falkie should be the presenter.

[Designx]

This guy shouldn't be on Art Bell, he should be in a room with a psychiatrist.  And an elementary school science teacher.

He should be on with Noory. Noory makes everyone credible.

[Hells Mole]

I finally was able to catch up to this show (I'm loving being a Time Traveler).

I'm not really threatened one way the other by however the fabric of reality is constructed.
I'm still going to walk out of my front door, sit in my car and drive down the road, look up at the sky
all just the same regardless of the shape of the material world I inhabit.

I think it's entertaining to envision a world as described in these recent YouTube
Flat Earth proponent videos.

Unfortunately Art's guest came off as a very petulant, rude, arrogant jerk.
If he had anything fascinating in his brain to share he failed miserably at getting it out.

[K_Dubb]

I finally was able to catch up to this show (I'm loving being a Time Traveler).

I'm not really threatened one way the other by however the fabric of reality is constructed.
I'm still going to walk out of my front door, sit in my car and drive down the road, look up at the sky
all just the same regardless of the shape of the material world I inhabit.

I think it's entertaining to envision a world as described in these recent YouTube
Flat Earth proponent videos.

Unfortunately Art's guest came off as a very petulant, rude, arrogant jerk.
If he had anything fascinating in his brain to share he failed miserably at getting it out.

Well-said; it would have been more fun to let him expound rather than to have another guest debate with him.  Reality is beside the point.

[QuantumMystics]

If he had argued from first principles at the start he would have made more sense.....

the earth appears flat to me and many others, so it can appear as flat and a sphere simultaneously.....it just depends on the point of reference in spacetime....someone posted a video by VSauce that hinted at this, and I take that as real, that it can appear relative to our location in spacetime a flat surface, so the earth maybe BOTH flat and spherical. If he started out with that as the teaser than the theory might have made far more sense, as both the flat data wouldn't contradict the spherical data , they both could function simultaneously, and we could take this as merely a model for thinking about the earth. Just as we can have a big bang and a nothing and a contraction all existing simultaneously, at the speed of light anything almost seems possible or beyond it it might seem even more possible for multiple multiverses worlds both flat and spherical, square, trianglular, why not? Paradigms and Methods can both fail and become accepted simultaneously, as people do not all live in the same times or spaces, so most scientists would throw their hands up and claim then "anything goes", why not unicorns and dragons or fairies? I think that if you can imagine it then it might exist in some manner, as all matter maybe entangled, so then multiverses could included fantasy and reality intermingled, fantasy and dreams maybe just messages from other multiverses and spacetimes, from other types of dimensions. A flat earth theory maybe fun in that context, but in the drybed of materialist science circa 2015 it just seems fantastical and wrong, because in some sense science maybe holds characteristics similar to religions in that it can deny any other form of reality if none of the data maybe replicable, but maybe the data doesn't exist in this spacetime or dimension?

Bizarre science maybe going on it just maybe Non-Simultaneously Apprehended in this current scenario universe.

Also if from the perspective of faster than light travel the worlds appeared flat and if you never left that speed somehow with some advanced technology all these worlds that would zoom by would appear flat and maybe one would then think of them as such from the neutrinos perspective? So maybe advanced beings see us as flat or living in a flat universe and from their perspective they just can't notice us? Like in flatland?


https://youtu.be/Wr7Bm6QSENM

[onan]

If one wants to call a globe flat, then sure it's flat. Just in a round spherical kind of way.

[Tarbaby]

First principles? hmmmmm, the last time I heard the term it was Dr. Hannibal Lecter advising Clarice starling on the screaming of the lambs.
  Anyway, that was my impression to for both arts flat Earther and Steve Warner's flat earther a few days prior that they were hoaxters. I didn't think of it as performance art but I guess it's the same thing.
  I feel a little bit embarrassed for art because he still thinks the guy was legit but stupid. I can tell by the way he talks to open line callers about it. Arts bullshit detector is slipping a little.

[QuantumMystics]

MY impression was that the flat earther maybe in it for the argument more or less in a nutshell, not for the discussion, so to argue one can take a witty approach or a "frantic hand gesture waving and grunting and making noises approach", of which of those two did the FE guy fall into, the latter category, which made a difference in how the scientist debates with the conversation and also ART's conversation, had he had his wits it actually would have likely seemed much more entertaining, cause when it comes to issues like this circa 2015, an espouser of those ideas better have something beyond just "I'm right, It's a conspiracy" defense! Sure it maybe possible but highly unlikely, but still possible.

Can anyone guess or explain this shot, lens type? Can one easily tell what was used for this shot?

[GeorgieForPresident2216]

MY impression was that the flat earther maybe in it for the argument more or less in a nutshell, not for the discussion, so to argue one can take a witty approach or a "frantic hand gesture waving and grunting and making noises approach", of which of those two did the FE guy fall into, the latter category, which made a difference in how the scientist debates with the conversation and also ART's conversation, had he had his wits it actually would have likely seemed much more entertaining, cause when it comes to issues like this circa 2015, an espouser of those ideas better have something beyond just "I'm right, It's a conspiracy" defense! Sure it maybe possible but highly unlikely, but still possible.

Can anyone guess or explain this shot, lens type? Can one easily tell what was used for this shot?

This website shows the geometry and suggests a fisheye lense of maybe 10 mm or less for a shot that could include the entire circle of the Earth at the height of the International Space Station.  Of course, the space shuttle's altitude varied a lot depending on its particular mission.

http://space.stackexchange.com/questions/9128/earth-angular-size-looking-from-the-iss

[WhiteCrow]

This whole Flat Earth debate is so 'square'