Malaysian Air MH17 crash

[paladin1991]

Let's not start with the "children" business. A life is a life.

Idunno bro.  Little ppl vs. adults.  For me it may different than for you.  To you it may be 'just' a matter of human lives.  Too me....little ppl   Hard to articulate.  But I've seen enough dead kids in my life to put me in a near state of perpetual rage.

[George Drooly]

Here we go. I've argued this before on this board. It's tedious, the romanticization of childhood and the devaluing of adults. It places imaginary inherent "goodness" above tangible consciousness. Knock yourself out.

[Kelt]

Children are helpless, and rely on we adults to take care of them. 

I'm not a sentimental type at all... I'll watch those 'Sad Music Dog Gets Rescued' Youtube videos and laugh derisively like a drunken sociopath. 

Children are a special case.

[bateman]

http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/07/17/this-is-the-surface-to-air-missile-that-ukraine-says-shot-down-mh17/



EDIT: US officials now confirming SA-11 or SA-17 http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/18/world/europe/malaysian-airlines-plane-ukraine.html

[bateman]

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/separatists-admit-downing-a-civilian-plane-in-tapped-conversation-full-transcript-356545.html

SBU intercepts phone conversations of separatists admitting downing a civilian plane

Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777-200 flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur was allegedly shot down by a group of Russian-backed Cossack militants near the village of Chornukhine, Luhansk Oblast, some 80 kilometers north-west of Donetsk, according to recordings of intercepted phone calls between Russian military intelligence officers and members of terrorist groups, released by the country’s security agency (SBU).

One phone call apparently was made at 4:40 p.m. Kyiv time, or 20 minutes after the plane crash, by Igor Bezler, who the SBU says is a Russian military intelligence officer and leading commander of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic. He reports to a person identified by Ukraine’s SBU as a colonel in the main intelligence department of the general headquarters of the armed forces of the Russian Federation Vasili Geranin regarding the shot down plane, which is about to be examined by the militants.

The second intercepted conversation released by the Security Service of Ukraine was apparently between militants nicknamed “Major” and “Greek” immediately upon inspection of the crash site.

“It’s 100 percent a passenger (civilian) aircraft,” Major is recorded as saying, as he admitted to seeing no weapons on site. “Absolutely nothing. Civilian items, medicinal stuff, towels, toilet paper.”

In the third part of conversation Cossack commander Nikolay Kozitsin talking to an unidentified militant cynically suggests that the Malaysia Airlines airplane could've been carrying spies, as, otherwise, it would have no business flying in that area.

Read the full transcript of an intercepted phone call below:

Igor Bezler: We have just shot down a plane. Group Minera. It fell down beyond Yenakievo (Donetsk Oblast).

Vasili Geranin: Pilots. Where are the pilots?

IB: Gone to search for and photograph the plane. Its smoking.

VG: How many minutes ago?

IB: About 30 minutes ago.

SBU comment: After examining the site of the plane the terrorists come to the conclusion that they have shot down a civilian plane. The next part of the conversation took place about 40 minutes later.

“Major”: These are Chernukhin folks who shot down the plane. From the Chernukhin check point. Those cossacks who are based in Chernukhino.

“Grek”: Yes, Major.

"Major": The plane fell apart in the air. In the area of Petropavlovskaya mine. The first “200” (code word for dead person). We have found the first “200”. A Civilian.

“Greek”: Well, what do you have there?

“Major”: In short, it was 100 percent a passenger (civilian) aircraft.

“Greek”: Are many people there?

“Major”: Holy sh__t! The debris fell right into the yards (of homes).

“Greek”: What kind of aircraft?

“Major”: I haven’t ascertained this. I haven’t been to the main sight. I am only surveying the scene where the first bodies fell. There are the remains of internal brackets, seats and bodies.

“Greek”: Is there anything left of the weapon?

“Major”: Absolutely nothing. Civilian items, medicinal stuff, towels, toilet paper.

“Greek”: Are there documents?

“Major”: Yes, of one Indonesian student. From a university in Thompson.

Militant: Regarding the plane shot down in the area of Snizhne-Torez. It’s a civilian one. Fell down near Grabove. There are lots of corpses of women and children. The Cossacks are out there looking at all this.

They say on TV it’s AN-26 transport plane, but they say it’s written Malaysia Airlines on the plane. What was it doing on Ukraine’s territory?

Nikolay Kozitsin: That means they were carrying spies. They shouldn’t be f__cking flying. There is a war going on.


http://youtu.be/V5E8kDo2n6g

[Bart Ell]

http://youtu.be/IoEHd0-9KBM

[VtaGeezer]

http://youtu.be/IoEHd0-9KBM

Stern is brilliant...if you have the maturity of a 12 year-old boy.

[VtaGeezer]

We don't know though if any were trained to use the system used though. This is a pretty complex piece of kit, and if some hot headed drunk has been put in charge all hell is let loose. I'm not saying that is the case, but it looks likely whoever pressed 'go' wasn't switched on.

News reports here are saying that Putins supply of SAMs, tanks and artillery to the seps was the reason for the new sanctions yesterday leading to Putin's call today.  The Russian brass know better than to turn that eqtp over to amateurs who can't even operate it.  This entire thing is Putins, perhap not intentionally, but he's signed off on heavy weapons transfer into a civil conflict.

[onan]

Except for the pilot, everyone on a plane is helpless. I am utterly powerless against a missle, even a little one.

Should we care that almost 300 people died only because they were travelling at about 600 mph and were thinkiing about how long until they landed? yeah. But 20,000 children die of starvation every day. They aren't being served soft drinks and pretzels and they are probably hoping their next destination is a banquet.

Sorry... I know buzz kill.

[Kelt]

Except for the pilot, everyone on a plane is helpless. I am utterly powerwless against a missle, even a little one.

Should we care that almost 300 people died only because they were travelling at about 600 mph and were thinkiing about how long until they landed? yeah. But 20,000 children die of starvation every day. They aren't being served soft drinks and pretzels and they are probably hoping their next destination is a banquet.

Sorry... I know buzz kill.

Not really sure how that advances your point.

[onan]

Not really sure how that advances your point.

Not really sure you need to. I am not all that bothered about the flight. It's tragic. So many things are. Hand wringing and speculation may be a fine conversation, but for the most part I will pass. This isn't caring by anyone.

[Kelt]

It's feeling an extra degree of sympathy for children.

You may put an equitable amount of value on a 6 month old child as an 89 year old adult, some people put more value on the life of their cat or dog than on a human life.

Some of us put an extra degree of value on a child's life.

It's odd that you would have an issue with that.

You certainly can't evaluate the degree to which others care, despite you thinking  that you can.

[McPhallus]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh2sWSVRrmo

[onan]

It's feeling an extra degree of sympathy for children.

You may put an equitable amount of value on a 6 month old child as an 89 year old adult, some people put more value on the life of their cat or dog than on a human life.

Some of us put an extra degree of value on a child's life.

It's odd that you would have an issue with that.

You certainly can't evaluate the degree to which others care, despite you thinking  that you can.

I really don't care to argue with you about what value and how much value you put on any age. It falls into the so what category. You are telling me you are, to some degree, shaken that 80 children died. Every five minutes that many children starve to death world wide. I realize it isn't an either or situation. I just think this is less about caring and more about pretend caring.

[VtaGeezer]

Except for the pilot, everyone on a plane is helpless. I am utterly powerwless against a missle, even a little one.

Should we care that almost 300 people died only because they were travelling at about 600 mph and were thinkiing about how long until they landed? yeah. But 20,000 children die of starvation every day. They aren't being served soft drinks and pretzels and they are probably hoping their next destination is a banquet.

Sorry... I know buzz kill.

So, since everyone's gotta die anyway, why make such a fuss about the cause, eh?

[onan]

So, since everyone's gotta die anyway, why make such a fuss about the cause, eh?

Look guys, sorry my opinion is different than yours.

You call this a fuss? This is hand wringing over something you will forget about in a week.

[Bart Ell]

Stern is brilliant...if you have the maturity of a 12 year-old boy.

And he had what exactly to do with this, dumb dumb?

[WildCard]

Look guys, sorry my opinion is different than yours.

You call this a fuss? This is hand wringing over something you will forget about in a week.

A week? Forget about what?

Israeli boots on the ground in Gaza worries me much more than a civil war in the Ukraine.

[WildCard]

Stern is brilliant...if you have the maturity of a 12 year-old boy.

Unlike the talking head. Jorch could be a news anchor.

[onan]

A week? Forget about what?

I dunno, man. Did you see that squirrel?

[albrecht]

Who cares if they are children, American citizens, NATO member nation citizens, or even just ordinary people blown out of the sky? Who cares if Israel is invading Gaza and HAMAS is shooting missiles at Israel? Who cares if criminals or diseased illegals are flowing over our open borders and children are being raped and found dead floating in the rivers, dessicated on people's ranches, or sold into sex slavery?

I gotta crack some jokes, talk about some more spending, and, most importantly get to some more fundraisers.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2696366/It-looks-like-terrible-tragedy-Obama-briefly-addresses-Malaysian-plane-crash-emerges-23-U-S-passengers-board.html

politicians, in general, suck but this guy. Wow. So callous and aloof. He is not even running again, why such politicking during crises?

[Kelt]

I really don't care to argue with you about what value and how much value you put on any age. It falls into the so what category. You are telling me you are, to some degree, shaken that 80 children died. Every five minutes that many children starve to death world wide. I realize it isn't an either or situation. I just think this is less about caring and more about pretend caring.

Ah, pretend caring.

No.

It's not.

[onan]

Ah, pretend caring.

No.

It's not.

Really? What are you going to do to change the outcome? How are you going to communicate your support to the family members that you do not know?

I am not suggesting heartlessness. I am suggesting feeling bad with no energies spent to help the afflicted is ego driven to elevate self. And is pointless, other than to cry in your beer.

And please tell me how you helped with the other plane crashes in the past year?

So yeah caring with no actual involvement is pretend caring.

[Kelt]

You appear to have attached an arbitrary, subjective value (energies expended) upon 'caring', and are demanding people meet your arbitrary criteria in order to be considered, by you, to be caring.

You won't be overly surprised to discover that you're S.O.L. on that score.

You don't get to determine the depth or triggers on human emotion.

As has already been pointed out.

[Kelt]

Who cares if they are children, American citizens, NATO member nation citizens, or even just ordinary people blown out of the sky? Who cares if Israel is invading Gaza and HAMAS is shooting missiles at Israel? Who cares if criminals or diseased illegals are flowing over our open borders and children are being raped and found dead floating in the rivers, dessicated on people's ranches, or sold into sex slavery?

I gotta crack some jokes, talk about some more spending, and, most importantly get to some more fundraisers.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2696366/It-looks-like-terrible-tragedy-Obama-briefly-addresses-Malaysian-plane-crash-emerges-23-U-S-passengers-board.html

politicians, in general, suck but this guy. Wow. So callous and aloof. He is not even running again, why such politicking during crises?

Jesus fucking christ.

Give it a rest.

[onan]

You appear to have attached an arbitrary, subjective value (energies expended) upon 'caring', and are demanding people meet your arbitrary criteria in order to be considered, by you, to be caring.

You won't be overly surprised to discover that you're S.O.L. on that score.

You don't get to determine the depth or triggers on human emotion.

As has already been pointed out.

And yet you have done nothing but tell me you care. Which translates to nothing.

[McPhallus]

Todd Rundgren - Pretending To Care

[Kelt]

It translates into nothing with which you can empathise.

That likely points to a psychological disconnect on your end, which is something else I can't help you with.

[onan]

It translates into nothing with which you can empathise.

That likely points to a psychological disconnect on your end, which is something else I can't help you with.

Still nothing? Let me know when you actually show some caring that goes a bit further than your monitor.

[Kelt]

Unfortunately I'm not a sociopath, so I can't show you a material manifestation of everything I've ever cared about.

I do understand what you're saying, though... by your own criteria you need some kind of material to emphasise an emotion, otherwise you can't comprehend that it exists, presumably because you have an issue understanding abstracts.

I can't imagine that you've gone through life free of emotion, or that you have a material example as a receipt of every emotion you've had.

Essentially you're saying that if you, personally, say, "I'll kill that guy." You've actually gone and killed that guy to prove that you had that emotion.

If you've ever seen something that you thought was beautiful, horrifying, or any one of the entire range of human emotions...including caring, you have the physical receipt documenting the emotion and the physical steps you took to prove to yourself that you were having that emotion.

Wow..  you're actually trying to make that argument.