Today I went to the shooting range - you should too!

Started by HAL 9000, September 20, 2012, 02:30:40 AM

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HAL 9000

Quote from: HorrorRetro on August 27, 2012, 06:17:17 PMShooting.  I recently got into it.  The first time I went to the range, I thought I was going to be sick.  My stomach was doing flips.  After I fired my first round, I set the AR-15 down and didn't think I'd pick it back up again.  After being persuaded to give it another try, I felt more comfortable.  Soon after that, I was having a good time.  For a novice, I'm a pretty good shot with the AR-15 as well as handguns.   I never thought I'd appreciate revolvers, but I prefer the feel of a revolver over a semi-auto handgun.  I'm on the lookout for a nice 38 revolver now. 

My first trip to the range: 

Your post got me to thinkin' - I haven't been to the outdoor rifle range in 5 years. Last time outdoor pistol was 3 years ago. So my dad, suggested we go today, so we chose to shoot three rifles:


    AR-15
    M1 Garand
    Springfield M1903A3 bolt-action

We didn't have a plan per se, as we only had 4 targets, which was too bad - I didn't have the opportunity to zero-in my peep-sights for elevation or windage, so just tried my best to score accurate groupings.

Additionally, after firing a few rounds, my dad said he didn't think I hit the target at all - of course, I retorted, "It's hard to see when the bullet goes through the same hole." I ended up being right later in the day, but more on that in a bit.

So we chose the 200 yard range, using military rifles ranging from the 1903 Springfield used during WWI & WWII), M1 Garand semi-automatic (WWII), and today's civilian equivalent of the M-16 (AR-15). No slings allowed, fancy coats or shooting gloves as are allowed at competition matches; we just used our eyes and arms/hands.

So while I didn't have an opportunity to adjust the sights, I was pretty pleased with the results. I won't show the larger bore target, as we both shot at that, and it doesn't give an accurate representation as it's filled with many holes. I'll only show my targets shot with the AR-15. Unfortunately, the spotting scope we brought, plus the angle of the sun, made it almost impossible to see the hits after each shot, so I kinda was shooting "blind" until I could go and retrieve the target.

I would highly recommend you click on each picture to make it larger, otherwise you won't see a true representation of the groupings.

So, without further ado, here are the pics:

All at 200 yards prone

First Grouping
[attachimg=1]

First Grouping covered with silver dollar
[attachimg=2]

Second target - labeled - 6 shots in dime radius
[attachimg=3]

10 shots all in half-dollar radius @ 200 yards
[attachimg=4]

10 shots covered by silver dollar
[attachimg=5]

6 shots hit would hit a dime @ 200 yards
[attachimg=6]

plain target - 3 shots through same hole
[attachimg=7]

So Gina, get some more practice, then get out of the indoor range at 15 yards, and work your way up - there's really no excuse for not beginning at 50 yards! (IMHO) ...And just personal preference, I hate revolvers - I'm currently in favor with the Springfield XD-M series - beautiful shooting pistol with standard large capacity magazines, though they now have numerous models for CCW - compact yet staggered magazine, and new slim-line models.

Anyways, just wanted to give you some encouragement - shooting can be fun. Don't cheat by using a scope - a 6-year-old ought to be able to hit the black using a scope. Be a "real" woman and use iron sights  :o

I like the Marine motto, "One shot, one kill."  ;)

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I favor Jody Pearson's philosophy from Phantasm:

"Now, remember: you don't aim a gun at a man unless you intend to shoot him. And, you don't shoot a man unless you intend to kill him. No warning shots. Hey, you listening to me? No warning shots. Warning shots are bullshit. You shoot to kill, or you don't shoot at all."

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stevesh

Very nice shooting from 200 yards with iron sights. Glad to see the 'prone', too. As Jeff Cooper said, "...but I do wish to point out that what the shooter can do from a bench is no measure of how he [or she] can shoot."

I have both revolvers and semi-autos and like both for different reasons. I'm a 1911 fan, myself (Kimber Pro-Carry II).

Juan

Heading to the swamp today with my break-barrel pellet rifle.  I'm still breaking it in and getting the sights adjusted.

ziznak

I was always taught about the importance of being able to shoot "Blind" as you say.  Apparently I was blessed with an instinctive shot like my dad. I still have an old crow target up that I shot to hell with a 22 rifle last time we went to the range.  Very nice shooting there Hal.

onan

Hal and I may have differing thoughts about gun laws, but if anyone is a gun owner it is incumbent they practice.

And honestly, I find few things as fun as firing weapons. And I love talking guns. I don't hunt anymore so most of my rifles take a back seat to my pistols.

I recently bought my wife a Ruger LCR .38. I am looking forward to see how it shoots.


BobGrau

*throws limp catapult in the bin and commences to weep*

HorrorRetro

Quote from: HAL 9000 on September 20, 2012, 02:30:40 AM

So Gina, get some more practice, then get out of the indoor range at 15 yards, and work your way up - there's really no excuse for not beginning at 50 yards! (IMHO) ...And just personal preference, I hate revolvers - I'm currently in favor with the Springfield XD-M series - beautiful shooting pistol with standard large capacity magazines, though they now have numerous models for CCW - compact yet staggered magazine, and new slim-line models.

Anyways, just wanted to give you some encouragement - shooting can be fun. Don't cheat by using a scope - a 6-year-old ought to be able to hit the black using a scope. Be a "real" woman and use iron sights  :o

I like the Marine motto, "One shot, one kill."  ;)

I didn't expect to see myself when I opened this post.

That trip to the indoor range was to give me some experience in handling the weapon and just having some fun.  I think I did great for my first time.  I am planning on getting more practice when my husband returns from Afghanistan.   I did go to another range after that and fired a 9mm and several revolvers and did quite well with no scope.  Thanks for your encouragement.





Another weapon that's fun to practice with is the Atlatl - these things were used in North America before the Bow and Arrow.  With a little effort they could pierce the thick, hair matted hide of a Mammoth, or go right through the door of a car.

Good video I found on YouTube (this is just some guy, not me) :


ziznak

Quote from: Paper*Boy on September 20, 2012, 11:38:10 PM
Another weapon that's fun to practice with is the Atlatl - these things were used in North America before the Bow and Arrow.  With a little effort they could pierce the thick, hair matted hide of a Mammoth, or go right through the door of a car.

Good video I found on YouTube (this is just some guy, not me) :

I remember first seeing the atlatl in some college anthropology book and thinking it was the funniest thing.  I seriously didn't think it could work.

Quote from: ziznak on September 21, 2012, 12:51:45 AM
I remember first seeing the atlatl in some college anthropology book and thinking it was the funniest thing.  I seriously didn't think it could work.

I was hitting the target after 2 throws

ziznak

Its things like the atlatl that make me wonder how the early humans figured stuff like that out.  They obviously had no physics or anything like that.  Everything would have to be learned through trial and error and the knowledge gained would be collected and passed on.  I always picture a line-up of tribesmen and some medicine man feeding each one a different plant or fungus to observe the effects...

or

"Hey bungawunga go stand over there for a second... I'm gonna see if I can't throw this stick with THIS stick and maybe it will land near you!"

...and with that the first brutal sacrifice to science is made.

Quote from: ziznak on September 21, 2012, 01:52:14 AM
Its things like the atlatl that make me wonder how the early humans figured stuff like that out.  They obviously had no physics or anything like that.  Everything would have to be learned through trial and error and the knowledge gained would be collected and passed on.  I always picture a line-up of tribesmen and some medicine man feeding each one a different plant or fungus to observe the effects...

or

"Hey bungawunga go stand over there for a second... I'm gonna see if I can't throw this stick with THIS stick and maybe it will land near you!"

...and with that the first brutal sacrifice to science is made.

I wonder too - they figured out some use for nearly every plant, got medicines, made rope, soap, bug repellant, amazing- some had to be soaked, or baked, made into tea, or ground up first, I guess they had a lot of time on their hands every day.   

Someone must have noticed that the hand moves faster than the elbow when swinging their arm around - guys with longer arms could reach further and hit harder, so extending the arm out a little with a club then an atlatl should have been figured out at some point (hey Chief, we can weaponize this)..

Nice shooting.


"...and before you ladies leave my island, you will all be able to do the same thing"

Full Metal Jacket - Charles Whitman - Lee Harvey Oswald


HAL 9000

Quote from: Mind Flayer Monk on September 21, 2012, 02:55:57 AM
Nice shooting.


"...and before you ladies leave my island, you will all be able to do the same thing"

Full Metal Jacket - Charles Whitman - Lee Harvey Oswald

Thanks...

Well, after watching the video clip you posted (one of my favorite movies), it encouraged me to get better estimates on how far away Kennedy was from Oswald during each of the three shots. The estimates seem to agree at from ~175 feet to ~250 feet (~60 yards-80 yards).

Oswald used a scope on his bolt-action 6.5 mm Carcano Model 91/38 rifle, and it is universally agreed it is an accurate weapon. My dad is the gun connoisseur of the family, so I've been able to sample a few of his rifles the couple of times I've been to the range the past 10 years or so.

It's always intrigued me as to how difficult the "Oswald shots" would be, and someday I'll try and simulate with a moving target - don't know how I'm gonna do that... but after shooting both my dad's Lee-Enfield .303 and his Springfield M1903A3 bolt-action rifles with no scope at 100 and 200 yards (vs. Oswald's 60-80 yards), and my shots (using a peep sight) are consistently "in the black" - meaning the targets I shot at, as pictured in my first post above, are 6 inches in diameter, I'm guessing putting a scope on one of those bolt-action rifles would have been child's play.

During my brief research, which included tests/simulations done by TV networks during the '60s through the latest Discovery Channel stuff, and FBI tests and testimony by FBI firearms expert Robert A. Frazier that, at the distance Kennedy was from Oswald, no "lead" was necessary at the moving target (meaning one would not have to compensate by aiming slightly ahead of the target), I conclude there is an excellent possibility I could have hit Kennedy's head within the roughly 6-8 seconds most agree there was between the first and third shots. Reacquiring the sight-picture with a scope at those close distances is simply easy.

I don't have a ruler here in the bedroom this late at night to measure, but I can say my head is larger than those 6" black targets... which is to say that, I'm just a regular guy who gets to shoot once every 3-5 years on a limited basis. I may have some degree of proficiency, but Oswald once qualified as "Sharpshooter." I think I could have hit Kennedy too.

In real life, I'm a profound insomniac (hence the link to finding Art Bell scanning through late-night radio while trying to fall asleep), but have incredibly lucid dreams, where I often find myself in battle situations killing people, or local conflicts which might involve "taking care of the "bad-guys" with semi-automatic pistols - which is in complete conflict with real-life saving babies. I'll bet ya there is some dream-interpreter who might make sense of some of that, though I used to think it was all mumbo-jumbo. Maybe my practicing shooting in my dreams helps me at the range (plus watching those sniper shows on "The Military Channel" and "History Channel."

               


BobGrau

Quote from: HAL 9000 on September 21, 2012, 11:18:41 PM

It's always intrigued me as to how difficult the "Oswald shots" would be, and someday I'll try and simulate with a moving target



careful... you'll end up getting a 'Visit' like Art used to get.

stevesh

Going to Dallas to see if I could have made that shot is one item on my bucket list. Of course, just because Oswald could have shot JFK doesn't mean he did. You still have to account for the gymnastics exhibited by the 'magic bullet'.

Juan

Later studies, IIRC the House Assassinations Committee, found that the scope was badly aligned.  Folks speculated that Oswald ignored the scope and actually used the iron sights - something he would have been more used to from the Marine Corps anyway.

That said, I'm now reading a new book, just published by a friend of my mother's.  It's the story of a former FBI agent who claims to have known a large number of the folks involved - including having grown up in New Orleans with Oswald.  If the book seems to offer anything, I'll post a brief review.

Back in the late 50s or early 60s, I was taught shooting by a fellow named Lucky McDaniel.  He gave lessons with BB guns that had no sights at all.  He called his method Instinct Shooting.  He taught using washers with a piece of paper in the hole.  He would throw the washer up in the air, and within three shots he had me consistently knocking the piece of paper out of the hole.  By about 1970, the U.S. Army hired him as a shooting instructor.  His books can still be found on the used market.


Sardondi

Quote from: UFO Fill on September 22, 2012, 04:28:37 AM
Later studies, IIRC the House Assassinations Committee, found that the scope was badly aligned.  Folks speculated that Oswald ignored the scope and actually used the iron sights - something he would have been more used to from the Marine Corps anyway.....

I've never found this particularly persuasive, since a scoped rifle standing untouched in a closet inexplicably needs to be re-zeroed after a few weeks. And I can easily see how Oswald's rifle could have been put out of true a score of times over between his last shot and when it was tested for accuracy by government agents.   

ziznak

Quote from: UFO Fill on September 22, 2012, 04:28:37 AM
Back in the late 50s or early 60s, I was taught shooting by a fellow named Lucky McDaniel.  He gave lessons with BB guns that had no sights at all.  He called his method Instinct Shooting.  He taught using washers with a piece of paper in the hole.  He would throw the washer up in the air, and within three shots he had me consistently knocking the piece of paper out of the hole.  By about 1970, the U.S. Army hired him as a shooting instructor.  His books can still be found on the used market.
A very good school to come from... instinctive shooting or having an instinctive shot was a phrase I heard my dad say many times while I was being taught how to shoot and handle guns.

MV/Liberace!

anyone have a good recommendation on a conceal carry holster for a glock .45?  i was considering this, but wasn't sure.  $60 is a chunk of change now that i'm a father.

onan

Quote from: MV on September 25, 2012, 11:38:42 AM
anyone have a good recommendation on a conceal carry holster for a glock .45?  i was considering this, but wasn't sure.  $60 is a chunk of change now that i'm a father.

I haven't found any good way to carry a moderate to large handgun concealed. About the best I have ever seen are vests that actually block the view of the "bulge".

I gave up carrying concealed anywhere but in my car.

There is a version of "thunderwear", although not sure it is by the same company, that is worn on the chest. It is completely covering. People will see you have a small pack like device on your chest but probably won't give it much thought. And that is ok if you are on a afternoon walk, but not so much if a more formal dress is needed.

None of them are cheap though. When I do carry (and it isn't often) I just use a IWB soft holster. The one I have now is made by "Uncle Mike". It was less than 15 bucks.

stevesh

Depends a lot on your build. 'Inside the waistband' holsters are the most concealable, but there isn't room inside my waistband for more than my waist (and not really for that).

I have a Miami Vice-style shoulder holster for my 1911, and it conceals well under a jacket, but is uncomfortable after a while.

I mostly carry when in the woods, so concealability isn't that important.

Ruteger


No effin' way! I just attended an NRA Beginner Class this weekend at my local CA shooting range. I shot an XD 9mm. Typical beginner issues. I got the first four or five smack in the middle, didn't breath properly, didn't rest and started flinching and anticipating (I don't like loud noises) and the rest of my shots started going astray. Going to buy my very first gun soon. Springfield Armory .40! I need to purchase before Hussein takes power in November.


Communist CA makes you take a test and limits your magazine to 10 rounds. REMEMBER! ALWAYS KEEP YOUR GUN POINTED IN A SAFE DIRECTION and BE 100% SURE IT IS UNLOADED!

Quote from: HAL 9000 on September 20, 2012, 02:30:40 AM
Your post got me to thinkin' - I haven't been to the outdoor rifle range in 5 years. Last time outdoor pistol was 3 years ago. So my dad, suggested we go today, so we chose to shoot three rifles:


       AR-15
    M1 Garand
    Springfield M1903A3 bolt-action
We didn't have a plan per se, as we only had 4 targets, which was too bad - I didn't have the opportunity to zero-in my peep-sights for elevation or windage, so just tried my best to score accurate groupings.

Additionally, after firing a few rounds, my dad said he didn't think I hit the target at all - of course, I retorted, "It's hard to see when the bullet goes through the same hole." I ended up being right later in the day, but more on that in a bit.

So we chose the 200 yard range, using military rifles ranging from the 1903 Springfield used during WWI & WWII), M1 Garand semi-automatic (WWII), and today's civilian equivalent of the M-16 (AR-15). No slings allowed, fancy coats or shooting gloves as are allowed at competition matches; we just used our eyes and arms/hands.

So while I didn't have an opportunity to adjust the sights, I was pretty pleased with the results. I won't show the larger bore target, as we both shot at that, and it doesn't give an accurate representation as it's filled with many holes. I'll only show my targets shot with the AR-15. Unfortunately, the spotting scope we brought, plus the angle of the sun, made it almost impossible to see the hits after each shot, so I kinda was shooting "blind" until I could go and retrieve the target.

I would highly recommend you click on each picture to make it larger, otherwise you won't see a true representation of the groupings.

So, without further ado, here are the pics:

All at 200 yards prone

First Grouping
[attachimg=1]

First Grouping covered with silver dollar
[attachimg=2]

Second target - labeled - 6 shots in dime radius
[attachimg=3]

10 shots all in half-dollar radius @ 200 yards
[attachimg=4]

10 shots covered by silver dollar
[attachimg=5]

6 shots hit would hit a dime @ 200 yards
[attachimg=6]

plain target - 3 shots through same hole
[attachimg=7]
So Gina, get some more practice, then get out of the indoor range at 15 yards, and work your way up - there's really no excuse for not beginning at 50 yards! (IMHO) ...And just personal preference, I hate revolvers - I'm currently in favor with the Springfield XD-M series - beautiful shooting pistol with standard large capacity magazines, though they now have numerous models for CCW - compact yet staggered magazine, and new slim-line models.

Anyways, just wanted to give you some encouragement - shooting can be fun. Don't cheat by using a scope - a 6-year-old ought to be able to hit the black using a scope. Be a "real" woman and use iron sights  :o

I like the Marine motto, "One shot, one kill."  ;)


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