Author The Russia Thread  (Read 21962 times)

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Re: The Russia Thread
« Reply #300 on: November 17, 2016, 06:56:21 PM »
isn't there some ugly secret about US generals knowing that Japan will attack Pearl Harbor but they waited and sacrificed
American lives ??

I'm sure U.S. could enter WWII sooner to help suffering European friends - as you know there was hidden agenda not omitting
the fact that American companies were making huge profits supplying Nazzi Germany with "stuff" so they can be well equipped
taking over Europe and rest of the World.

the usa had planned to stay out of the war, and we did supply russia and the uk with arms , but no if it wasnt for the japanese the usa would have stayed out of it.

Re: The Russia Thread
« Reply #301 on: November 17, 2016, 07:20:30 PM »
the usa had planned to stay out of the war, and we did supply russia and the uk with arms , but no if it wasnt for the japanese the usa would have stayed out of it.

I think we would have gotten in sooner or later, even if there was no Imperial Japanese Army rampaging through the Pacific. Our ships were getting sunk by U-boats trying to stop U.S. arms and supplies getting to Russia and England.

Eventually, the U.S. would have been forced to fight or submit to the Nazis and their genocidal agenda. Some Lusitania type incident would have been the trigger, as with World War I.

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Re: The Russia Thread
« Reply #302 on: November 17, 2016, 07:22:31 PM »
I think we would have gotten in sooner or later, even if there was no Imperial Japanese Army rampaging through the Pacific. Our ships were getting sunk by U-boats trying to stop U.S. arms and supplies getting to Russia and England.

Eventually, the U.S. would have been forced to fight or submit to the Nazis and their genocidal agenda. Some Lusitania type incident would have been the trigger, as with World War I.

i do wonder what went on thru hitlers head when he was forced to declare war on us after the pearl harbor attack.


Re: The Russia Thread
« Reply #303 on: November 17, 2016, 07:41:05 PM »
i do wonder what went on thru hitlers head when he was forced to declare war on us after the pearl harbor attack.

Nothing actually forced him to do that but I think he saw the U.S. as inevitably his enemy, an enemy he would end up fighting. He wanted that to happen on his initiative, mostly as a propaganda tool and it's just more evidence of his maniacal global ambition.

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Re: The Russia Thread
« Reply #304 on: November 17, 2016, 08:17:12 PM »
Nothing actually forced him to do that but I think he saw the U.S. as inevitably his enemy, an enemy he would end up fighting. He wanted that to happen on his initiative, mostly as a propaganda tool and it's just more evidence of his maniacal global ambition.

thats my point, it uped his time tables to the point where he wasnt ready, and i do think he was forced since he had to show a united front with his main allies of japan and italy.

Re: The Russia Thread
« Reply #305 on: November 17, 2016, 08:46:53 PM »
thats my point, it uped his time tables to the point where he wasnt ready, and i do think he was forced since he had to show a united front with his main allies of japan and italy.

Yeah, I see your point in terms of the Axis alliance, but to the extent that this motivated him to declare war on the U.S. when he did, it shows a real lapse of strategic judgment. That, of course, goes to his personality weaknesses as a wartime leader.

Hitler very patiently plotted his betrayal and invasion of the Soviet Union and then, at a time when Barbarossa was succeeding, assumed he would quickly be victorious. If he could have anticipated even the possibility of Stalingrad, he would have waited for six months or so before deciding to take on another formidable enemy like the U.S. I'm sure Tojo and Mussolini would have cut him some slack if Hitler wanted to finish with Russia before taking on the Americans.

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Re: The Russia Thread
« Reply #306 on: November 17, 2016, 08:59:01 PM »
Yeah, I see your point in terms of the Axis alliance, but to the extent that this motivated him to declare war on the U.S. when he did, it shows a real lapse of strategic judgment. That, of course, goes to his personality weaknesses as a wartime leader.

Hitler very patiently plotted his betrayal and invasion of the Soviet Union and then, at a time when Barbarossa was succeeding, assumed he would quickly be victorious. If he could have anticipated even the possibility of Stalingrad, he would have waited for six months or so before deciding to take on another formidable enemy like the U.S. I'm sure Tojo and Mussolini would have cut him some slack if Hitler wanted to finish with Russia before taking on the Americans.

hitlers main problem was that he never listened to his proven generals, and he should have taken care of the UK before even launching Barbarossa. he proved his imcomptence again when he would send his panser divisons to reinforce normandy after dday begain.

Re: The Russia Thread
« Reply #307 on: November 17, 2016, 09:11:52 PM »
hitlers main problem was that he never listened to his proven generals, and he should have taken care of the UK before even launching Barbarossa. he proved his imcomptence again when he would send his panser divisons to reinforce normandy after dday begain.

I seem to recall Hitler had to delay Barbarossa six weeks because he used forces and stores allocated for the invasion of Russia in Greece and Yugoslavia.

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Re: The Russia Thread
« Reply #308 on: November 17, 2016, 09:13:02 PM »
I seem to recall Hitler had to delay Barbarossa six weeks because he used forces and stores allocated for the invasion of Russia in Greece and Yugoslavia.

wasnt he bailing out the italian forces ?

Re: The Russia Thread
« Reply #309 on: November 17, 2016, 09:16:12 PM »
wasnt he bailing out the italian forces ?

In Greece, yes.  Yugoslavia was the result I think of the pro-German government being overthrown.  The German attacks into both countries were almost simultaneous.

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Re: The Russia Thread
« Reply #310 on: November 17, 2016, 09:18:13 PM »
In Greece, yes.  Yugoslavia was the result I think of the pro-German government being overthrown.  The German attacks into both countries were almost simultaneous.

leave it to hitler to always over extent his forces.

Re: The Russia Thread
« Reply #311 on: November 17, 2016, 09:20:59 PM »
leave it to hitler to always over extent his forces.


Re: The Russia Thread
« Reply #312 on: November 17, 2016, 09:22:55 PM »
hitlers main problem was that he never listened to his proven generals, and he should have taken care of the UK before even launching Barbarossa. he proved his imcomptence again when he would send his panser divisons to reinforce normandy after dday begain.
There also were a number of logistical problems; trying to fight on so many fronts and in regions without fuel/parts resupply, differently gauged tracks, supply line problems, etc. You can't refuel, replenish, move equipment/troops/materiel you are done for.

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Re: The Russia Thread
« Reply #313 on: November 17, 2016, 09:25:02 PM »


the meat grinder that was the eastern front

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Re: The Russia Thread
« Reply #314 on: November 17, 2016, 09:25:48 PM »
There also were a number of logistical problems; trying to fight on so many fronts and in regions without fuel/parts resupply, differently gauged tracks, supply line problems, etc. You can't refuel, replenish, move equipment/troops/materiel you are done for.

he alone was to blame for that, since he always insisted to take full control of military ops

Re: The Russia Thread
« Reply #315 on: November 17, 2016, 09:29:04 PM »
hitlers main problem was that he never listened to his proven generals, and he should have taken care of the UK before even launching Barbarossa. he proved his imcomptence again when he would send his panser divisons to reinforce normandy after dday begain.

Right. He always thought he knew better than his generals and advisors (not that there were too many who dared to disagree with him), even after they turned out to be right and him wrong. This is a problem even with heads of state with limited power, but with absolute power and the world's most powerful military, as with Nazi Germany in 1939, you're looking at a very high death toll.

There are lots of lessons here, even for a very different country like the U.S., which now has a bold new leader who also seems to have total faith in his own judgment no matter what the experts say. No false equivalency there with Hitler, but they both have personality and character issues which can and have gotten the world into big trouble.

Re: The Russia Thread
« Reply #316 on: November 17, 2016, 09:30:34 PM »
hahaha, reading some of your posts I hope you guys are not disappointed that Hitler lost , are you ?? , LOL

Re: The Russia Thread
« Reply #317 on: November 17, 2016, 09:30:49 PM »
he alone was to blame for that, since he always insisted to take full control of military ops
No disagreement here.

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Re: The Russia Thread
« Reply #318 on: November 17, 2016, 09:33:02 PM »
hahaha, reading some of your posts I hope you guys are not disappointed that Hitler lost , are you ?? , LOL

its a shame that stalin didnt die with hitler

Re: The Russia Thread
« Reply #319 on: November 17, 2016, 09:33:15 PM »
hahaha, reading some of your posts I hope you guys are not disappointed that Hitler lost , are you ?? , LOL

No more than I am Stalin won.

Re: The Russia Thread
« Reply #320 on: November 17, 2016, 09:34:29 PM »
Right. He always thought he knew better than his generals and advisors (not that there were too many who dared to disagree with him), even after they turned out to be right and him wrong. This is a problem even with heads of state with limited power, but with absolute power and the world's most powerful military, as with Nazi Germany in 1939, you're looking at a very high death toll.

There are lots of lessons here, even for a very different country like the U.S., which now has a bold new leader who also seems to have total faith in his own judgment no matter what the experts say. No false equivalency there with Hitler, but they both have personality and character issues which can and have gotten the world into big trouble.
I'm a bit surprised that more "reporters" and activists (or at least librarians and teachers) haven't mentioned Upton Sinclair's work in light of the election. Roth also wrote a "what if" type of book also but Sinclair's is better. (There also has been quite a few more "popular" revisionist fiction books about the Axis winning or a populist like Huey Long/Wallace type winning.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Can%27t_Happen_Here
I don't think Trump is like this (his daughter is married to a Jew and he "opened" up a country-club in Florida to the chagrin of the rich folks there) but still always be vigilant and it is a good book.

Re: The Russia Thread
« Reply #321 on: November 17, 2016, 09:34:43 PM »
Right. He always thought he knew better than his generals and advisors (not that there were too many who dared to disagree with him), even after they turned out to be right and him wrong. This is a problem even with heads of state with limited power, but with absolute power and the world's most powerful military, as with Nazi Germany in 1939, you're looking at a very high death toll.

There are lots of lessons here, even for a very different country like the U.S., which now has a bold new leader who also seems to have total faith in his own judgment no matter what the experts say. No false equivalency there with Hitler, but they both have personality and character issues which can and have gotten the world into big trouble.

OK, this is total bullshit you are posting here. Trump is not even in the office yet ,what decisions did he made
that went against the so called experts you are stating here.

I wish you engage your brain before you press on the "Post" button ,you starting to act like that Roswells,Art cat chika

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Re: The Russia Thread
« Reply #322 on: November 17, 2016, 09:35:23 PM »
No disagreement here.

they would have been better off with rommel or maybe albert spier being appointed head of military matters.

Re: The Russia Thread
« Reply #323 on: November 17, 2016, 09:36:22 PM »
No more than I am Stalin won.
Hey Uncle Joe is our friend!  :( To that point I will say that Russia beat Germany and suffered worse from the war, and their government, than anybody else (arguably at least) in the war. But leaders and system was worse than the NAZIs at least in terms of sheer body-count.

Re: The Russia Thread
« Reply #324 on: November 17, 2016, 09:44:16 PM »
Hey Uncle Joe is our friend!  :( To that point I will say that Russia beat Germany and suffered worse from the war, and their government, than anybody else (arguably at least) in the war. But leaders and system was worse than the NAZIs at least in terms of sheer body-count.

Yes the Soviet Union suffered horribly, but we were more of a friend to Stalin than he was to us.  Take a look at the lend lease equipment we sent Russia, the sheer magnitude of what we provided is staggering.  Much of it was misused and poorly maintained by the Russians, and therefore effectively wasted. 

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Re: The Russia Thread
« Reply #325 on: November 17, 2016, 09:47:41 PM »
Yes the Soviet Union suffered horribly, but we were more of a friend to Stalin than he was to us.  Take a look at the lend lease equipment we sent Russia, the sheer magnitude of what we provided is staggering.  Much of it was misused and poorly maintained by the Russians, and therefore effectively wasted.

did they ever pay us back for that?

Re: The Russia Thread
« Reply #326 on: November 17, 2016, 09:48:12 PM »
Yes the Soviet Union suffered horribly, but we were more of a friend to Stalin than he was to us.  Take a look at the lend lease equipment we sent Russia, the sheer magnitude of what we provided is staggering.  Much of it was misused and poorly maintained by the Russians, and therefore effectively wasted.
Like Czars before him or like some other regimes use the winters, desperation of the local populace, and the troops no matter how many of your own die. Having said that much respect to those soldiers on both sides who served in that theater and to the civilians. Horrible, horrible stuff. We have an odd history of giving shitloads of money to various countries and regimes that get wasted or end up being our enemies. We bailed out Mexico. We bailed out the former Soviet Union. We send food etc to N.Korea, and on it goes....

Re: The Russia Thread
« Reply #327 on: November 17, 2016, 09:49:26 PM »
I'm a bit surprised that more "reporters" and activists (or at least librarians and teachers) haven't mentioned Upton Sinclair's work in light of the election. Roth also wrote a "what if" type of book also but Sinclair's is better. (There also has been quite a few more "popular" revisionist fiction books about the Axis winning or a populist like Huey Long/Wallace type winning.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Can%27t_Happen_Here
I don't think Trump is like this (his daughter is married to a Jew and he "opened" up a country-club in Florida to the chagrin of the rich folks there) but still always be vigilant and it is a good book.

For Jews and anyone else hoping for sanity to prevail in the White House, I wouldn't let Trump's family connection to the Jewish people cloud or excuse his problems having to do with good judgment and issues of human rights. Neither being Jewish nor knowing Jews intimately prevents anyone from doing bad things. That's another lesson from World War II.

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Re: The Russia Thread
« Reply #328 on: November 17, 2016, 09:51:33 PM »

Re: The Russia Thread
« Reply #329 on: November 17, 2016, 10:16:23 PM »
did they ever pay us back for that?

The deal with lend lease equipment was it had to be returned or paid for at the end of the war, but since the downsizing US military had no use for the returned equipment, we told those who'd gotten the gear to destroy it in place. This was done by the Brits/Commonwealth forces, but the Russian neither paid for or destroyed the bulk of  equipment remaining at the end of the war. Much of that equipment was used by Soviet and Soviet satellite nations well into the 1950s.  Little known story occurred very early in the Korean War when the Soviets tried to attack USN Task Force 77 with lend-lease, American made/supplied A-20 attack bombers carrying torpedoes.  One of them was shot down by a Corsair from USS Valley Forge.  Similarly, US pilots reported seeing and shooting down at least one lend lease supplied P-63 Kingcobra early in that war.