Author The Ongoing Climate and Weather Debate including General Weather News  (Read 8328 times)

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Re: The Ongoing Climate and Weather Debate including General Weather News
« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2016, 03:57:54 PM »
Fewer than 50% of American citizens believe in man-made climate change according to Pew.  Sure you can say the rest of us are idiots but the fact of the matter is many people are not convinced.

http://www.pewinternet.org/2016/10/04/public-views-on-climate-change-and-climate-scientists/

“Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.”
― George Carlin

I don't actually agree with George Carlin here.  I think most people are generally quite intelligent.  It's just that even many intelligent Republicans here have fallen for the nonsense that global warming is a matter of genuine political debate due to the lies from the oil industry and the like.  I'm sure if there were polls taken of the number of people who believed cigarette smoking did not cause cancer up to even the middle 1970s that the vast majority of smokers (which at the time was still around 35% or so of the adult population) would have said they did not believe it.

The fallibility of many otherwise intelligent people to believe in lies or outright nonsense when they perceive that it is in their personal interest has been long established.

Re: The Ongoing Climate and Weather Debate including General Weather News
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2016, 03:59:42 PM »
“Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.”


― George Carlin


Re: The Ongoing Climate and Weather Debate including General Weather News
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2016, 04:04:43 PM »

I added to my previous post.

I've heard this before.  George Carlin in this sketch makes it clear he is no global warming denier.  He says or implies that he fully believes the science.  He also says though that he is happy about the occurrence of global warming because he hates humanity and wants to see it wiped off the planet.  In that, he was not joking. That was something he genuinely believed.


Re: The Ongoing Climate and Weather Debate including General Weather News
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2016, 04:08:04 PM »
I added to my previous post.

I've heard this before.  George Carlin in this sketch makes it clear he is no global warming denier.  He says or implies that he fully believes the science.  He also says though that he is happy about the occurrence of global warming because he hates humanity and wants to see it wiped off the planet.  In that, he was not joking. That was something he genuinely believed.

That is not what he said at all.  You need to listen to it again.  He said we are too insignificant to cause any real damage to the planet.  I don't really agree with him on that point.  We can damage the planet with chemicals and other pollutants but not CO2.  A single volcanic eruption has far more influence on the CO2 content of the atmosphere than any human factors.

Re: The Ongoing Climate and Weather Debate including General Weather News
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2016, 04:17:31 PM »
That is not what he said at all.  You need to listen to it again.  He said we are too insignificant to cause any real damage to the planet.  I don't really agree with him on that point.  We can damage the planet with chemicals and other pollutants but not CO2.  A volcanic eruption has far more influence on the CO2 content of the atmosphere than humans.

What he said is exactly what I wrote he said, at around 3:30 "The planet isn't going anywhere. We are.  We're going away...just another failed mutation.  The planet will shake us off like a bad case of fleas.  A surface nuisance."

I was incorrect that he said he believed in the science of global warming.  He mentions plastics in the ocean,but he doesn't comment on AGW one way or the other.  However, all his comments make it clear he believes what the science and scientists tell him.

His extremely negative views of humanity is also very clear.  In commenting on why the planet would want to get rid of humans, he quotes the earth as referring to humans as 'assholes.'

Re: The Ongoing Climate and Weather Debate including General Weather News
« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2016, 04:21:00 PM »
What he said is exactly what I wrote he said, at around 3:30 "The planet isn't going anywhere. We are.  We're going away...just another failed mutation.  The planet will shake us off."

There is nothing in that statement that implies that he believes in man-made climate change.  What he is saying is that we are insignificant.

Re: The Ongoing Climate and Weather Debate including General Weather News
« Reply #36 on: October 22, 2016, 04:28:25 PM »
There is nothing in that statement that implies that he believes in man-made climate change.  What he is saying is that we are insignificant.

As I wrote above, he didn't comment on AGW either way.  He does not say we are insignificant, he says that we are insignificant in terms of the long term damage we can do to the earth.  He also implies on a number of occasions that all the pollution humans are producing might wipe out all of us.  Though he also says the earth may need to do that through viruses.

There is a difference between claiming that pollution is insignificant to the planet and claiming that pollution is insignificant to humans.

This is a longer version of the sketch that what I've heard previously.  The version I'd heard before ended at about the five minute mark and left a clear impression that Carlin was saying that pollution would wipe out humans.

At the end of this full version of the sketch he says that he thinks AIDS might end humans and says "Well, I can dream can't I?"  although it isn't clear to me if he's quoting the earth as saying that or if that is his dream. Most likely it's both.

So, you are correct that he didn't say here that he believed in AGW, but you are also incorrect in suggesting this clip shows that Carlin didn't believe in AGW as he doesn't mention it one way or the other.  However, everything else I wrote is clearly backed up by this sketch.

Re: The Ongoing Climate and Weather Debate including General Weather News
« Reply #37 on: October 22, 2016, 04:35:57 PM »
As I wrote above, he didn't comment on AGW either way.  He does not say we are insignificant, he says that we are insignificant in terms of the long term damage we can do to the earth.  He also implies on a number of occasions that all the pollution humans are producing might wipe out all of us.  Though he also says the earth may need to do that through viruses.

There is a difference between claiming that pollution is insignificant to the planet and claiming that pollution is insignificant to humans.

This is a longer version of the sketch that what I've heard previously.  The version I'd heard before ended at about the five minute mark and left a clear impression that Carlin was saying that pollution would wipe out humans.

Well I got the distinct impression from that sketch that he could not care less about pollution of any kind.  I hope I'm wrong on that count as real pollution bothers me a lot.  I hate litterers that would bespoil the environment.

Re: The Ongoing Climate and Weather Debate including General Weather News
« Reply #38 on: October 22, 2016, 04:37:29 PM »
Well I got the distinct impression from that sketch that he could not care less about pollution of any kind.  I hope I'm wrong on that count as real pollution bothers me a lot.  I hate litterers that would bespoil the environment.

He doesn't care about pollution of any kind because he genuinely wanted humans to be wiped off the planet.  If pollution would assist in that end, George Carlin was totally supportive of it.

Re: The Ongoing Climate and Weather Debate including General Weather News
« Reply #39 on: October 22, 2016, 04:38:10 PM »
He doesn't care about pollution of any kind because he genuinely wanted humans to be wiped off the planet.  If pollution would assist in that end, George Carlin was totally supportive of it.

I'll take your word on that.

Re: The Ongoing Climate and Weather Debate including General Weather News
« Reply #40 on: October 22, 2016, 04:45:30 PM »
A single volcanic eruption has far more influence on the CO2 content of the atmosphere than any human factors.

The burning of fossil fuels and changes in land use results in the emission into the atmosphere of approximately 30 billion tonnes of carbon dioxide per year worldwide, according to the EIA. The fossil fuels emissions numbers are about 100 times bigger than even the maximum estimated volcanic CO2 fluxes. Our understanding of volcanic discharges would have to be shown to be very mistaken before volcanic CO2 discharges could be considered anything but a bit player in contributing to the recent changes observed in the concentration of CO2 in the Earth's atmosphere.

https://www.skepticalscience.com/volcanoes-and-global-warming.htm

Also, while every volcanic eruption is a random event (at least as far as present science suggests) volcanic eruptions in general do, I believe, occur in fairly routine intervals.  So, the CO2 from volcanoes is a normal part of the aggregate total of CO2 in the atmosphere.  Human caused CO2, in total contrast is a marginal increase in the total amount of CO2 in the atmosphere.  The aggregate total of CO2 in the atmosphere was manageable previously, it's the marginal increase that is causing the problem.

By marginal here, I'm not referring to 'small' as in marginal hands Trump.  I'm referring to a marginal increase as in aggregate vs. marginal.  A lot of people, including it seems, you, make the mistake of making decisions using aggregate analysis whereas the correct form of analysis is marginal analysis.


Marginal analysis:
The process of identifying the benefits and costs of different alternatives by examining the incremental effect... caused by a very small (just one unit) change in the output or input of each alternative. Marginal analysis supports decision-making based on marginal or incremental changes to resources instead of one based on totals (aggregate) or averages.

Read more: http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/marginal-analysis.html

Re: The Ongoing Climate and Weather Debate including General Weather News
« Reply #41 on: October 22, 2016, 04:55:35 PM »
The burning of fossil fuels and changes in land use results in the emission into the atmosphere of approximately 30 billion tonnes of carbon dioxide per year worldwide, according to the EIA. The fossil fuels emissions numbers are about 100 times bigger than even the maximum estimated volcanic CO2 fluxes. Our understanding of volcanic discharges would have to be shown to be very mistaken before volcanic CO2 discharges could be considered anything but a bit player in contributing to the recent changes observed in the concentration of CO2 in the Earth's atmosphere.

https://www.skepticalscience.com/volcanoes-and-global-warming.htm

Also, while every volcanic eruption is a random event (at least as far as present science suggests) volcanic eruptions in general do, I believe, occur in fairly routine intervals.  So, the CO2 from volcanoes is a normal part of the aggregate total of CO2 in the atmosphere.  Human caused CO2, in total contrast is a marginal increase in the total amount of CO2 in the atmosphere.  The aggregate total of CO2 in the atmosphere was manageable previously, it's the marginal increase that is causing the problem.

By marginal here, I'm not referring to 'small' as in marginal hands Trump.  I'm referring to a marginal increase as in aggregate vs. marginal.  A lot of people, including it seems, you, make the mistake of making decisions using aggregate analysis whereas the correct form of analysis is marginal analysis.


Marginal analysis:
The process of identifying the benefits and costs of different alternatives by examining the incremental effect... caused by a very small (just one unit) change in the output or input of each alternative. Marginal analysis supports decision-making based on marginal or incremental changes to resources instead of one based on totals (aggregate) or averages.

Read more: http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/marginal-analysis.html

OK.  You've given me something to chew on.

Re: The Ongoing Climate and Weather Debate including General Weather News
« Reply #42 on: October 22, 2016, 04:57:54 PM »
  A single volcanic eruption has far more influence on the CO2 content of the atmosphere than any human factors.


Re: The Ongoing Climate and Weather Debate including General Weather News
« Reply #43 on: October 22, 2016, 05:01:41 PM »


OK.  It looks like I may have made a mistake there and relied on info that was sourced from Ian Plimer's claims which are widely disputed.  I stand humbly corrected.

Re: The Ongoing Climate and Weather Debate including General Weather News
« Reply #44 on: October 22, 2016, 05:10:19 PM »


It's not CO2 that spews from volcanoes as much as the sulpher, methane and volcanic ash that contribute significantly to almost immediate (in cosmic terms) climate change. Depending on how violent the eruption, the upper atmosphere can be affected for a relatively long time.

http://www.geology.sdsu.edu/how_volcanoes_work/climate_effects.html

Re: The Ongoing Climate and Weather Debate including General Weather News
« Reply #45 on: October 22, 2016, 05:24:08 PM »
It's not CO2 that spews from volcanoes as much as the sulpher, methane and volcanic ash that contribute significantly to almost immediate (in cosmic terms) climate change. Depending on how violent the eruption, the upper atmosphere can be affected for a relatively long time.

http://www.geology.sdsu.edu/how_volcanoes_work/climate_effects.html

Global methane levels, had risen to 1800 parts per billion (ppb) by 2011, an increase by a factor of 2.5 since pre-industrial times, from 722 ppb, the highest value in at least 800,000 years

IPCC AR5 WG1 (2013). "Climate Change 2013: The Physical Science Basis - Summary for Policymakers" (PDF). Cambridge University Press

And although volcanoes are dastardly, it doesn't mitigate industrial responsibilities.

Re: The Ongoing Climate and Weather Debate including General Weather News
« Reply #46 on: October 22, 2016, 05:41:13 PM »
Fewer than 50% of American citizens believe in man-made climate change according to Pew.  Sure you can say the rest of us are idiots but the fact of the matter is many people are not convinced.

http://www.pewinternet.org/2016/10/04/public-views-on-climate-change-and-climate-scientists/

25% believe unicorns are real, and 50% angels are real..75% claim they've been abducted by aliens. I'm sure a fair percentage also believe in the tooth fairy, the easter bunny and santa claus, but that doesn't make any of it right.

Re: The Ongoing Climate and Weather Debate including General Weather News
« Reply #47 on: October 22, 2016, 05:48:33 PM »
Global methane levels, had risen to 1800 parts per billion (ppb) by 2011, an increase by a factor of 2.5 since pre-industrial times, from 722 ppb, the highest value in at least 800,000 years

IPCC AR5 WG1 (2013). "Climate Change 2013: The Physical Science Basis - Summary for Policymakers" (PDF). Cambridge University Press

And although volcanoes are dastardly, it doesn't mitigate industrial responsibilities.

Rice fields and cattle (beef and dairy) ranching are a major source of methane. On the good news front, Australian scientists are experimenting with feeding cows seaweed supplements finding it cuts methane up to 99%.

Methane and SO2 are greenhouse gases. Much worse to the environment than CO2.

A bit of synchronity. I found this article on reddit a few days ago. The laser based chemical detectors in the photo are made by a company in Canada (Boreal Laser). At my last contract, the company I was helping, sold and installed these very systems. The ones in the picture are portable units. We sold portable and permanent installations throughout the US for all diferent kinds of toxic gases. They even have an airborne system that can be flown down a pipeline looking for natural gas leaks.

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-19/environmental-concerns-cows-eating-seaweed/7946630?pfmredir=sm

Re: The Ongoing Climate and Weather Debate including General Weather News
« Reply #48 on: October 22, 2016, 05:52:34 PM »
According to this, rice fields account for 13% of methane introduced into the atmosphere.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/rice-paddy-methane-emissi/

Re: The Ongoing Climate and Weather Debate including General Weather News
« Reply #49 on: October 22, 2016, 05:57:13 PM »
Sources of methane

I hope that the seaweed supplements prove viable.
http://whatsyourimpact.org/greenhouse-gases/methane-emissions

We should require all landfills to capture and utilize their methane to power electrical generators.

But no matter what we do, hopefully we won't have anymore really stupid releases from places like Porter Ranch. This dwarfed cow farts.

http://gizmodo.com/a-california-gas-leak-is-the-biggest-environmental-disa-1749958081

Bottom line is that methane is much more of a greenhouse gas than CO2 ever will be. We were successful in dealing with HFCs to protect the ozone layer. We should concentrate on tackiling methane before we go bankrupt trying to harness CO2. We can plant trees to offset CO2.

Re: The Ongoing Climate and Weather Debate including General Weather News
« Reply #50 on: October 22, 2016, 06:06:31 PM »
Bhutan is an interesting case study. They set the goal of being carbon neutral and have actually become carbon negative by extensive reforestation efforts.

http://www.ecowatch.com/this-country-isnt-just-carbon-neutral-its-carbon-negative-1882195367.html

Re: The Ongoing Climate and Weather Debate including General Weather News
« Reply #51 on: October 22, 2016, 06:18:56 PM »
Why do Godless liberals even care about climate change? We will just evolve to breathe green house gases and grow fins when the glaciers melt. Then will we live in a peaceful world with no boarders where you can just swim wherever you want when we become gender fluid world mermaids.


Re: The Ongoing Climate and Weather Debate including General Weather News
« Reply #52 on: October 22, 2016, 06:19:03 PM »
Rice fields and cattle (beef and dairy) ranching are a major source of methane. On the good news front, Australian scientists are experimenting with feeding cows seaweed supplements finding it cuts methane up to 99%.

Methane and SO2 are greenhouse gases. Much worse to the environment than CO2.

A bit of synchronity. I found this article on reddit a few days ago. The laser based chemical detectors in the photo are made by a company in Canada (Boreal Laser). At my last contract, the company I was helping, sold and installed these very systems. The ones in the picture are portable units. We sold portable and permanent installations throughout the US for all diferent kinds of toxic gases. They even have an airborne system that can be flown down a pipeline looking for natural gas leaks.

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-19/environmental-concerns-cows-eating-seaweed/7946630?pfmredir=sm

Yes methane is worse. And as we get warmer due to CO2, the permafrost will start to thaw (already is) which will increase methane into the atmosphere.


Re: The Ongoing Climate and Weather Debate including General Weather News
« Reply #53 on: October 22, 2016, 06:22:14 PM »
This is a methane "hot spot" that is in the Four Corners area that NASA has been studying. It is obviously not a result of melting permafrost and seems to be a quite large natural source of methane.

Not sure if there is anything they can do once they figure out why.

https://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2014/09oct_methanehotspot

Re: The Ongoing Climate and Weather Debate including General Weather News
« Reply #54 on: October 22, 2016, 06:22:50 PM »
Why do Godless liberals even care about climate change?

Why did you get the golden ticket and escape infanticide? There are lots of unanswered questions.

Re: The Ongoing Climate and Weather Debate including General Weather News
« Reply #55 on: October 22, 2016, 06:26:06 PM »
This is an interesting approach in attempts to bind CO2 into rock. This would result in a "permanent" elimination of that amount of CO2, but I am not sure how much energy is required and if he t can end up being carbon-negative. Still, approaches like these are better than wealth redistribution using trading of carbon credits and carbon taxes.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/new-storage-projects-turns-co2-into-stone/

Re: The Ongoing Climate and Weather Debate including General Weather News
« Reply #56 on: October 22, 2016, 06:29:57 PM »
I can see this will be a popular thread.  For the record, while I take back my comment about volcanoes and co2, I still am skeptical that co2 emissions from man is a problem and that it is inducing climate change.  I certainly don't think it should be used as an excuse to increase taxes. 

Re: The Ongoing Climate and Weather Debate including General Weather News
« Reply #57 on: October 22, 2016, 06:32:51 PM »
25% believe unicorns are real, and 50% angels are real..75% claim they've been abducted by aliens. I'm sure a fair percentage also believe in the tooth fairy, the easter bunny and santa claus, but that doesn't make any of it right.

I'm sure you made up these numbers, but you don't think anybody has been abducted by an alien?  I'm not 100% sure Whitley Streiber claimed he was ever abducted but his story is pretty close and he sounds totally sincere to me.  Travis Walton was falsely attacked for committing fraud when all that happened there was an honest mistake and he sounds sincere to me and Betty and Barney Hill were totally sincere.  Other than with Whitley Streiber who is an author, I don't think either the Travis Walton Case or the Hill's case can be explained by their 'overactive imaginations.'  Especially not Travis Walton as he had separate witnesses.

I realize that writing I think these are likely genuine cases of alien abductions will, to some here, weaken my credible on other things I write here, but with everything, my view is: I go wherever the best evidence takes me, even when it takes me to some very strange places.

I also don't necessary believe in angels, but there are many credible stories of people who report they heard a voice telling them to either not to do something or to do something that saved their lives. The prosaic explanation for these is 'they subconsiously noticed something that they responded to and they only thought they heard a voice." I think the evidence for that explanation is very weak as in many cases there was no way they or their subconscious could have noticed anything.

Re: The Ongoing Climate and Weather Debate including General Weather News
« Reply #58 on: October 22, 2016, 06:33:15 PM »
This is an interesting approach in attempts to bind CO2 into rock. This would result in a "permanent" elimination of that amount of CO2, but I am not sure how much energy is required and if he t can end up being carbon-negative. Still, approaches like these are better than wealth redistribution using trading of carbon credits and carbon taxes.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/new-storage-projects-turns-co2-into-stone/

Indeed.  Couldn't agree more.  Of course the politicians won't go along with that.  They can't pass up an opportunity to increase taxes.

Re: The Ongoing Climate and Weather Debate including General Weather News
« Reply #59 on: October 22, 2016, 06:33:23 PM »
I can see this will be a popular thread.  For the record, while I take back my comment about volcanoes and co2, I still am skeptical that co2 emissions from man is a problem and that it is inducing climate change.  I certainly don't think it should be used as an excuse to increase taxes.

So decrease other taxes and leave it revenue neutral.