Author RELIGION Thread  (Read 12202 times)

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Re: RELIGION Thread
« Reply #180 on: October 31, 2016, 12:00:49 PM »
I've often wondered this myself. Why would anyone want eternal life? I understand that death is something some people fear, so it's helpful for them to have something that takes the edge off it. But I personally find the notion of not being able to die no matter what a bit terrifying. Welcome to heaven and no matter what you do, there's no way out ...

I can understand the fear of dying, as a process, but not death itself which is not an actual experience. I suppose it began as a way of consoling people for their miserable lives, to let them know that it gets better in the end as long as you put up with all the crap that this world throws at you and you don't rock the boat. But, as you say, if you really consider the concept of eternal life, it's a life sentence with no possibility of parole.

Re: RELIGION Thread
« Reply #181 on: October 31, 2016, 12:06:09 PM »
You were a horrid person? Anyway, who wants to live forever? What an awful thought. It's only because something is perishable that makes it valuable in the first place. Perhaps you prefer plastic flowers, but most people don't. And just try to imagine what eternal life would mean in the first place: unbearable boredom, listening to angels singing hosanna all bloody day. No thanks. Eternal life is a curse not something to be wished for.

SV , you amuse me with your ............... luck of CREATIVITY Sir

Re: RELIGION Thread
« Reply #182 on: October 31, 2016, 12:10:43 PM »
SV , you amuse me with your ............... luck of CREATIVITY Sir

If you want to worship a guy who spent his time sashaying around the middle east with a bunch of dudes, be my guest. Not that there's anything wrong with that.


Re: RELIGION Thread
« Reply #183 on: October 31, 2016, 12:16:05 PM »
I can understand the fear of dying, as a process, but not death itself which is not an actual experience. I suppose it began as a way of consoling people for their miserable lives, to let them know that it gets better in the end as long as you put up with all the crap that this world throws at you and you don't rock the boat. But, as you say, if you really consider the concept of eternal life it's a life sentence with no possibility of parole.

I can understand fearing the process, especially if it's one of the more horrific ways to go, but death itself is simply the state of non-existence. I actually find that kind of nice, not only no more having to get up at 5 a.m., but no getting up at all.

It's also worth noting that heaven, by its very nature, would be full of the type of people that I typically can't stand. I mean, no one I've ever respected or liked would be there. If given the choice to roast with Hitchens, Aristotle and Jim Morrison, I think I'd take that over sitting around with St. Thomas Aquinas looking at God and wondering what the hell it is for eternity. 

Re: RELIGION Thread
« Reply #184 on: October 31, 2016, 12:27:23 PM »
Murderer? Lying is very unbecoming of a Christian. Jesus grabbed you by the pussy and now you're a 'good' person? I've heard some whoppers in my day...but this takes the cake. hahahaha!

So you would rather prefer that he stayed as he was before /as he described himself the person he was/.
I don't understand you /and those who think like you/ -you all complain that World is full of evil full of bad people full of violence
full of murder full of liars full of cheaters full of crooked politicians -and here you have a person who is brave enough to open up
and confess his past and how he was changed to be a better person and some of you are still not happy about it ??
Am I missing something here ..or you people are missing something here ??

If FTF deserves any back comment it is a compliment that he was seeking change in his life and that he did it,
that he recognized what was wrong in his life and that he changed it..and that he is proud of it..and that he is brave enough
to name where the help come from..FTF said that it come from God from Jesus Christ

I guess some of you people like to be surrounded by all this evil and you wish that it will never go away...hmmmmm ??
What's so bothering that Jesus did that Jesus said that you people hate Him so much ??
Is it because He said to Love your enemy to Love those who oppress you to give food and drink to hungry and thirsty ??
Or some of you people hate Jesus because He healed blind and sick ,is that it?? -that's why you hate Jesus so passionately??


Re: RELIGION Thread
« Reply #185 on: October 31, 2016, 01:47:54 PM »
I can understand the fear of dying, as a process, but not death itself which is not an actual experience. I suppose it began as a way of consoling people for their miserable lives, to let them know that it gets better in the end as long as you put up with all the crap that this world throws at you and you don't rock the boat. But, as you say, if you really consider the concept of eternal life, it's a life sentence with no possibility of parole.

I think concept is actually eternal bliss.

Re: RELIGION Thread
« Reply #186 on: October 31, 2016, 01:52:08 PM »
I think concept is actually eternal bliss.

good one onan ,..but apparently for some it will be eternal damnation ,lol

Re: RELIGION Thread
« Reply #187 on: October 31, 2016, 01:59:12 PM »
I can understand the fear of dying, as a process, but not death itself which is not an actual experience. I suppose it began as a way of consoling people for their miserable lives, to let them know that it gets better in the end as long as you put up with all the crap that this world throws at you and you don't rock the boat. But, as you say, if you really consider the concept of eternal life, it's a life sentence with no possibility of parole.

I'm sure it can be arranged that you could be wiped from existence but you might have a change of heart when you actually have the possibility to request it.

Re: RELIGION Thread
« Reply #188 on: October 31, 2016, 02:02:41 PM »
Murderer? Lying is very unbecoming of a Christian. Jesus grabbed you by the pussy and now you're a 'good' person? I've heard some whoppers in my day...but this takes the cake. hahahaha!

LOL Hell, I barely believe it myself sometimes. In fact, I`d go almost as far as to say what happened to me...is miraculous. Maybe even what didn`t happen to me is just as miraculous!  8)

Re: RELIGION Thread
« Reply #189 on: October 31, 2016, 02:04:49 PM »
I can understand fearing the process, especially if it's one of the more horrific ways to go, but death itself is simply the state of non-existence. I actually find that kind of nice, not only no more having to get up at 5 a.m., but no getting up at all.

It's also worth noting that heaven, by its very nature, would be full of the type of people that I typically can't stand. I mean, no one I've ever respected or liked would be there. If given the choice to roast with Hitchens, Aristotle and Jim Morrison, I think I'd take that over sitting around with St. Thomas Aquinas looking at God and wondering what the hell it is for eternity.

I know what you mean and I've come to that same conclusion in the past.  However, thinking more about it, I don't think Heaven is a place where we bow down in worship 24/7 nor is it a place where only boring people go. I can't put my finger on it but I think our conception of Heaven is quite different than the reality.  Love Hitchens by the way even if he was a godless heathen.

Re: RELIGION Thread
« Reply #190 on: October 31, 2016, 02:07:41 PM »
I know what you mean and I've come to that same conclusion in the past.  However, thinking more about it, I don't think Heaven is a place where we bow down in worship 24/7 nor is it a place where only boring people go. I can't put my finger on it but I think our conception of Heaven is quite different than the reality.  Love Hitchens by the way even if he was a godless heathen.

Let's don't forget that there are several levels of "Heaven"

Re: RELIGION Thread
« Reply #191 on: October 31, 2016, 02:09:28 PM »
So you would rather prefer that he stayed as he was before /as he described himself the person he was/.
I don't understand you /and those who think like you/ -you all complain that World is full of evil full of bad people full of violence
full of murder full of liars full of cheaters full of crooked politicians -and here you have a person who is brave enough to open up
and confess his past and how he was changed to be a better person and some of you are still not happy about it ??
Am I missing something here ..or you people are missing something here ??

If FTF deserves any back comment it is a compliment that he was seeking change in his life and that he did it,
that he recognized what was wrong in his life and that he changed it..and that he is proud of it..and that he is brave enough
to name where the help come from..FTF said that it come from God from Jesus Christ

I guess some of you people like to be surrounded by all this evil and you wish that it will never go away...hmmmmm ??
What's so bothering that Jesus did that Jesus said that you people hate Him so much ??
Is it because He said to Love your enemy to Love those who oppress you to give food and drink to hungry and thirsty ??
Or some of you people hate Jesus because He healed blind and sick ,is that it?? -that's why you hate Jesus so passionately??


With a few exceptions, I`m pretty much an open book about my past. I like to talk to people in trouble or on the wrong path and try to give them some hope. My testimony is always the same: If by the power and glory of Jesus Christ, I can walk away from evil and live a decent life while helping as many others as I can, then so can you! Let`s pray.

Re: RELIGION Thread
« Reply #192 on: October 31, 2016, 02:16:13 PM »
I know what you mean and I've come to that same conclusion in the past.  However, thinking more about it, I don't think Heaven is a place where we bow down in worship 24/7 nor is it a place where only boring people go. I can't put my finger on it but I think our conception of Heaven is quite different than the reality.  Love Hitchens by the way even if he was a godless heathen.


Speculating on Heaven is tantamount to a pond guppy contemplating the finer points of theoretical physics. You just won`t have a clue until you -- hopefully -- get there.

Re: RELIGION Thread
« Reply #193 on: October 31, 2016, 02:16:44 PM »

With a few exceptions, I`m pretty much an open book about my past. I like to talk to people in trouble or on the wrong path and try to give them some hope. My testimony is always the same: If by the power and glory of Jesus Christ, I can walk away from evil and live a decent life while helping as many others as I can, then so can you! Let`s pray.

FTF I really hope that fekcuf reading this/your story will have change of mind and heart -we can only pray for it brother  :)
rekcuf is not that bad ,just bit lost and misguided ,right r? ;)

Re: RELIGION Thread
« Reply #194 on: October 31, 2016, 02:19:02 PM »
FTF I really hope that fekcuf reading this/your story will have change of mind and heart -we can only pray for it brother  :)
rekcuf is not that bad ,just bit lost and misguided ,right r? ;)

Agreed!

Re: RELIGION Thread
« Reply #195 on: October 31, 2016, 02:32:13 PM »
Keats once accused Newton of unweaving the rainbow, of reducing all that subfusc mysticism to cold hard facts. That's usually the reaction of people like you, who get their velvet pantaloons in a twist if they have to reassess their views about the world. Alan Watts used to say there are two sort of people: prickly and gooey, and you are so gooey you drip all over the place.

Atheists (not a term I like, incidentally) don't say there is no god, they merely say that the case has not been proven. Which it hasn't, categorically. Theists do so much limbo dancing to try and prove their point that it's a wonder they don't get a crick in the neck. Science is gradually filling in the blanks, and if you find objective, verifiable information about this planet and the universe dry and lacking in poetry then I feel sorry for you. If you can look at the images from the Hubble telescope without awe then you are the one lacking imagination. Yeah, I'd far rather contemplate the approximations of a bunch of illiterate peasants two thousand years ago!

And to say that this 'closed intellectual system' as you call it is attractive because it is simple just shows how little of it you know or understand. Religion is popular because it can be taught to a child of two, and people struggle to develop their intellectual horizons beyond that elementary stage. The appeal of a science-based approach is the joy of discovery, of having an open mind. Religion doesn't want that at all, in fact it fears new information that will force them to do a bit more tap-dancing to shore up their shaky position.

I don't know who you were entertaining, presumably yourself. This whole screed is redolent of the sort of masturbatory self-indulgence appropriate to someone who presumably flounces about their bed-sitting room dressed as cardinal, giving blessings to the sparrows and squealing the Miserere in a thin, reedy tenor. I'm sure those buskins look simply divine on you.

Nunc dimittis

Ah here he comes, waving his telescopes at me, brandishing his digital pictures like icons, though the spiky modern epithets with which he lauds them, "obective" and "verifiable", do not caress the ear like "holy".  Nothing whatever prevents me from looking at your pictures, dear, and feeling what you feel.  But you can not possibly hear Rachmaninoff's sublime Nunc dimittis the same way I do.  You may appreciate the artistry or tonal beauty, but the words will not stir your soul the way they do mine.

I am trying to imagine what sort of person you think you are debating -- a child of two, with a closed mind, incapable of the joy of discovery, afraid of new information, a formidable dancer -- it is a caricature, sir, your own hobgoblin.  It bears little resemblance to a human at all, let alone the heroic intellects with which I struggle.  Let us leave him, and the fallacy he represents, behind, and say no more.

I shall now demolish the charge:  I want it all.  All that science can discover, plus the wisdom of generations of holy men on those subjects that science, for all its current hubris, even now blushes to consider.  If I patch the gaps with recourse to symbols and metaphor, well, we religious invented that sort of thing; it is as mother's milk.  You flourish the threat of "new information" with a sneer as though some Jerusalem potsherd might suddenly undo everything, or Hubble might actually show us the gates of the celestial hall with a "To Let" sign on them.  This is child's play.  You are dealing with myths, which are not thin, vapory things but intrinsically powerful ideas for which men die.  I welcome your new information boldly and unafraid, having drunk deep from the same well that nourished my forefathers.  While you lack even the moral basis to oppose the horror of eugenics, which everything we've learned about evolution and genetics should endorse, my "image of God" rings with the authority of four thousand years.

Both of us face the future armed as best as we can with what wisdom we've been able to glean.  But one of us has willingly lopped off that portion of his brain which deals in symbols and the intangible, the emergence of which is widely held to have heralded the first modern humans by their art, and the development of which has preoccupied our finest minds.  Oh Shreddy, history has laid a vast banquet for you, but you subsist on what paltry nourishment you can suck through the small end of a telescope.  And I have the closed mind.

Re: RELIGION Thread
« Reply #196 on: October 31, 2016, 02:36:30 PM »
but death itself is simply the state of non-existence.

You have vanishingly small evidence for this and certainly no proof, and yet, this you believe.

Fascinating.

Re: RELIGION Thread
« Reply #197 on: October 31, 2016, 02:45:55 PM »
Ah here he comes, waving his telescopes at me, brandishing his digital pictures like icons, though the spiky modern epithets with which he lauds them, "obective" and "verifiable", do not caress the ear like "holy".  Nothing whatever prevents me from looking at your pictures, dear, and feeling what you feel.  But you can not possibly hear Rachmaninoff's sublime Nunc dimittis the same way I do.  You may appreciate the artistry or tonal beauty, but the words will not stir your soul the way they do mine.

I am trying to imagine what sort of person you think you are debating -- a child of two, with a closed mind, incapable of the joy of discovery, afraid of new information, a formidable dancer -- it is a caricature, sir, your own hobgoblin.  It bears little resemblance to a human at all, let alone the heroic intellects with which I struggle.  Let us leave him, and the fallacy he represents, behind, and say no more.

I shall now demolish the charge:  I want it all.  All that science can discover, plus the wisdom of generations of holy men on those subjects that science, for all its current hubris, even now blushes to consider.  If I patch the gaps with recourse to symbols and metaphor, well, we religious invented that sort of thing, it is as mother's milk.  You flourish the threat of "new information" with a sneer as though some Jerusalem potsherd might suddenly undo everything, or Hubble might actually show us the gates of the celestial hall with a "To Let" sign on them.  This is child's play.  You are dealing with myths, which are not thin, vapory things but intrinsically powerful ideas for which men die.  I welcome your new information boldly and unafraid, having drunk deep from the same well that nourished my forefathers.  While you lack even the moral basis to oppose the horror of eugenics, which everything we've learned about evolution and genetics should endorse, my "image of God" rings with the authority of four thousand years.

Both of us face the future armed as best as we can with what wisdom we've been able to glean.  But one of us has willingly lopped off that portion of his brain which deals in symbols and the intangible, the emergence of which is widely held to have heralded the first modern humans by their art, and the development of which has preoccupied our finest minds.  Oh Shreddy, history has laid a vast banquet for you, but you subsist on what paltry nourishment you can suck through the small end of a telescope.  And I have the closed mind.

wow what a oratory master piece -with presentations as such you will do one of the two things, or you drive SV to insanity
or he will repent and becomes a believer and ends up in seclusion as a monk to contemplate his next move ,lol

Re: RELIGION Thread
« Reply #198 on: October 31, 2016, 04:05:37 PM »
Get off your high horse before someone comes along and knocks you off, cleaving you in two with the sword of your own hypocrisy. This goes for all of you drinking of that cup ! ...
Quote
10:16  ¶ (*) (6) Behold, I send you as (f) sheep in the midst of wolves; be ye therefore wise as serpents, and (g) (♣) (♠) innocent as doves.

 

(*) Luke 10:3 .

(6) Christ sheweth how the ministers must behave themselves under the cross.
(f) You shall be in great dangers.
(g) You shall not so much as revenge an injury; and by the mixing of these beasts’ natures together, he will not have our wisdom to be malicious, nor our simplicity mad, but a certain form of good nature as exquisitely framed of both them, as may be.

(♣) Or, simple.

(♠) Not revenging wrong, much less doing wrong.

If you wish to advance on the chessboard...

http://www.sacred-texts.com/index.htm

This is not something that can be given, you must find it yourself.

Re: RELIGION Thread
« Reply #199 on: October 31, 2016, 04:21:44 PM »
Get off your high horse before someone comes along and knocks you off, cleaving you in two with the sword of your own hypocrisy. This goes for all of you ! ...
If you wish to advance on the chessboard...

http://www.sacred-texts.com/index.htm

This is not something that can be given, you must find it yourself.

...baaaa?  But he is a dazzlingly fleet-footed beast, barely winded, and the exercise does wonders.  Good for a few more tilts at Shreddy's wildly spinning quintain, I think.

Re: RELIGION Thread
« Reply #200 on: October 31, 2016, 04:24:24 PM »
...baaaa?  But he is a dazzlingly fleet-footed beast, barely winded, and the exercise does wonders.  Good for a few more tilts at Shreddy's wildly spinning quintain, I think.
;)

Re: RELIGION Thread
« Reply #201 on: October 31, 2016, 07:17:35 PM »
which goes back to ..spirituality is vastly more important that religion..especially organized religion

you have faith in something and seeing to that faith in your own way is vastly better than someone telling you something out of a book that saying..oh yeah while you are at it..we need money

it is a lot like that line in the holy grail

"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government!"

Re: RELIGION Thread
« Reply #202 on: October 31, 2016, 09:26:45 PM »
I think concept is actually eternal bliss.

Thank you God for for my "Free Will"
I "choose" to believe in you.

FAITH  HOPE  LOVE

Love ALL

Carry on.... my friends

Re: RELIGION Thread
« Reply #203 on: October 31, 2016, 09:51:28 PM »
So you would rather prefer that he stayed as he was before /as he described himself the person he was/.
I don't understand you /and those who think like you/ -you all complain that World is full of evil full of bad people full of violence
full of murder full of liars full of cheaters full of crooked politicians -and here you have a person who is brave enough to open up
and confess his past and how he was changed to be a better person and some of you are still not happy about it ??
Am I missing something here ..or you people are missing something here ??

If FTF deserves any back comment it is a compliment that he was seeking change in his life and that he did it,
that he recognized what was wrong in his life and that he changed it..and that he is proud of it..and that he is brave enough
to name where the help come from..FTF said that it come from God from Jesus Christ

I guess some of you people like to be surrounded by all this evil and you wish that it will never go away...hmmmmm ??
What's so bothering that Jesus did that Jesus said that you people hate Him so much ??
Is it because He said to Love your enemy to Love those who oppress you to give food and drink to hungry and thirsty ??
Or some of you people hate Jesus because He healed blind and sick ,is that it?? -that's why you hate Jesus so passionately??


Why do you believe so passionately?    I assume you are a sane person, how can you entertain such beliefs?  What proof do you have?  At what point did you start believing this stuff? Was there a single "A ha!" moment that hooked you, or was it a slower process?

I can see spirituality perhaps, but organized religion seems like just another method to control other humans, all the while having their hands in your pocket. Religion is big business to some.
I think that some principles are great, and it would be great if people actually lived their lives according to the 12 Commandments.
I just find it difficult that in 2016 that there are so many healthy people that can honestly believe in what could account for as 100% fantasy?

peace
Hog

Re: RELIGION Thread
« Reply #204 on: October 31, 2016, 09:57:10 PM »
Why do you believe so passionately?    I assume you are a sane person, how can you entertain such beliefs?  What proof do you have?  At what point did you start believing this stuff? Was there a single "A ha!" moment that hooked you, or was it a slower process?

I can see spirituality perhaps, but organized religion seems like just another method to control other humans, all the while having their hands in your pocket. Religion is big business to some.
I think that some principles are great, and it would be great if people actually lived their lives according to the 12 Commandments.
I just find it difficult that in 2016 that there are so many healthy people that can honestly believe in what could account for as 100% fantasy?

peace
Hog

Hog, before I invest time typing an answer I like to ask you -did you read all my posts?
let's take it from there and I will respectfully answer you, Thanks

Re: RELIGION Thread
« Reply #205 on: October 31, 2016, 10:30:53 PM »
Hog, before I invest time typing an answer I like to ask you -did you read all my posts?
let's take it from there and I will respectfully answer you, Thanks
I did try to but honestly, its just a bit too out there for me.  To simply set aside subjects such as evolution of humans, is just too much.

I am all for allowing for freedoms and rights pertaining to religion, so dont get me wrong about that. Dont worry about my questions, its all good my friend.

I bid you a good day.

peace
Hog


Re: RELIGION Thread
« Reply #206 on: October 31, 2016, 11:59:05 PM »
Why do you believe so passionately?    I assume you are a sane person, how can you entertain such beliefs?  What proof do you have?  At what point did you start believing this stuff? Was there a single "A ha!" moment that hooked you, or was it a slower process?


Re: RELIGION Thread
« Reply #207 on: November 01, 2016, 12:22:36 AM »
which goes back to ..spirituality is vastly more important that religion..especially organized religion

you have faith in something and seeing to that faith in your own way is vastly better than someone telling you something out of a book that saying..oh yeah while you are at it..we need money

it is a lot like that line in the holy grail

"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government!"
;)
http://educate-yourself.org/cn/fundamentalistbrainwashing06jun05.shtml

Re: RELIGION Thread
« Reply #208 on: November 01, 2016, 01:05:53 AM »
I did try to but honestly, its just a bit too out there for me.  To simply set aside subjects such as evolution of humans, is just too much.

I am all for allowing for freedoms and rights pertaining to religion, so dont get me wrong about that. Dont worry about my questions, its all good my friend.

I bid you a good day.

peace
Hog

Reason I asked is because answers to your questions are in my posts -if you care to know them you can ignore the posts where
I challenge /SV mostly/ on the evolution and read few of my posts on other topics and answers are there...
but to make clear I do not belong to any particular Christian church, I believe that you can believe in God in Jesus Christ without
belonging to a particular church /as an organization/.
Not that if you do belong that is wrong, no not at all -there are many people who got big help by associating with fellow Christians,
I just chose not to,I used to a bit before.

I think that most people hate Jesus not because what he teached and what he did but because of what organized Christian religion did,
the bad things that they did /especially Rome/ -but there were and are individual priests who are pure and honest- as well a lot of priests
who are scum of the Earth hiding under the cloth.
Smart thing is not to classify them as one bad bunch.

And Jesus is getting bad rap for that, but if you read what he was teaching you will see that he was "very cool guy"
I also made this mistake in the past and I hate it God, I hate it Jesus because what organized religion did /the bad ugly stuff that they did/
but after searching for answers and struggling with it I learned to know the difference.

At one point in my search for God I started to ask/pray these words:

"I'm asking for the real God to reveal himself to me, I like to get to know the God who created me God who created life"
" I'm asking for protection from false spirits and only spirits of truth to help me"

...this was almost exact way /with some changes/ I prayed asked for several days, that was time of my life when I had a lot on my plate.
I had days so full of stress and despair that I was cursing God with most vulgar words I could muster in few languages, I told him most
vile things -I challenged Him to a fight - I asked Him to kill me..or to help me.

I was desperate to end my agony. I never thought of "doing my self in", but on many occasions I sincerely asked God to kill me to end my life
Those desperate moments were coming mostly at evening time, but nothing happened ,I woke in the morning alive, again.
But slowly emotional pain was easing and I got strength to read more books, and eventually I started to read the Bible
had of course problems understanding many thing but just reading it was giving me relief from inner agony
-and slowly after 2-3 weeks I noticed feeling of inner peace settling in, but also there were relapses as well but they didn't last long
and they were not as severe as before they were coming every so often on a irregular basis,
sometimes nothing for 2-3 weeks and then boom for 2-3-4 days downer and stress,
but they were getting less and less frequent and eventually left for good.


I'm sharing this so those who are in similar situation for you to know that is not some quick magic over night massive change,
later I read that when you are asking for it and are getting "connected" to the real God the satanic/demonic forces can and will
attack you even more to discourage you from proceeding, but if you keep your focus eventually they will leave you alone
and felling of inner peace will fill you in  :)

 



Re: RELIGION Thread
« Reply #209 on: November 01, 2016, 11:45:59 AM »
Ah here he comes, waving his telescopes at me, brandishing his digital pictures like icons, though the spiky modern epithets with which he lauds them, "obective" and "verifiable", do not caress the ear like "holy".  Nothing whatever prevents me from looking at your pictures, dear, and feeling what you feel.  But you can not possibly hear Rachmaninoff's sublime Nunc dimittis the same way I do.  You may appreciate the artistry or tonal beauty, but the words will not stir your soul the way they do mine.

I am trying to imagine what sort of person you think you are debating -- a child of two, with a closed mind, incapable of the joy of discovery, afraid of new information, a formidable dancer -- it is a caricature, sir, your own hobgoblin.  It bears little resemblance to a human at all, let alone the heroic intellects with which I struggle.  Let us leave him, and the fallacy he represents, behind, and say no more.

I shall now demolish the charge:  I want it all.  All that science can discover, plus the wisdom of generations of holy men on those subjects that science, for all its current hubris, even now blushes to consider.  If I patch the gaps with recourse to symbols and metaphor, well, we religious invented that sort of thing; it is as mother's milk.  You flourish the threat of "new information" with a sneer as though some Jerusalem potsherd might suddenly undo everything, or Hubble might actually show us the gates of the celestial hall with a "To Let" sign on them.  This is child's play.  You are dealing with myths, which are not thin, vapory things but intrinsically powerful ideas for which men die.  I welcome your new information boldly and unafraid, having drunk deep from the same well that nourished my forefathers.  While you lack even the moral basis to oppose the horror of eugenics, which everything we've learned about evolution and genetics should endorse, my "image of God" rings with the authority of four thousand years.

Both of us face the future armed as best as we can with what wisdom we've been able to glean.  But one of us has willingly lopped off that portion of his brain which deals in symbols and the intangible, the emergence of which is widely held to have heralded the first modern humans by their art, and the development of which has preoccupied our finest minds.  Oh Shreddy, history has laid a vast banquet for you, but you subsist on what paltry nourishment you can suck through the small end of a telescope.  And I have the closed mind.

NATURE and Nature’s Laws lay hid in Night:   
God said, “Let Newton be!” and all was light.


'Objectivity' isn't a dirty world, young fellow. 'Cunnilingus' is a dirty word, and, to some extent, 'constitution', but I think we are wandering beside the point with this shilly-shallying. Art, just like science and philosophy, is a search for truth pure and simple.

“Beauty is truth, truth beauty,” – that is all
Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.


Your daintily coiffed head is straining so far into the empyrean that you can't see what's staring you in the face, causing you to trip over your ruby slippers ("there's no place like Rome, Toto") and look the most frightful arse. You don't name anyone in particular, so I will assume that you were talking out of the back of your neck again, but most great minds of the past had a religious bent simply because there was no alternative explanations on offer. I'm sure most of them, confronted with the evidence, would have concluded that it was all a load of horse feathers and changed their views accordingly, and realised that the cracker they were chomping down on wasn't JC's big toe after all.  You can appreciate religious music while being an atheist as easily as you can listen to the Ring Cycle without being a pagan, dear boy. Perhaps if you adopted a more dispassionate attitude then you'd recognise real music, rather than some sort of synthetic tosh like Rachmaninoff.

I don't deny the numinous, I just don't think of it as though I were a wambling 5-year-old frightened of the dark. "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent", that's all. If you don't have any words for it then you're not entitled to say anything, as Wittgenstein said. We don't have to make up stories about what we don't, and almost certainly never will, understand. Don't confuse religion and myth, they are two separate things. You don't need to believe a myth as literally true to imbibe some wisdom, in the sense that you can read the Upanishads without having to subscribe to it. Om. You are getting religion and philosophy mixed  up. People only follow the New Testament on the understanding that JC was divine, otherwise all that "take no thought for the morrow" stuff would be dismissed as the ravings of a fanatic. Which they obviously were.

Evolution doesn't 'endorse' eugenics. Darwin was observing what he saw and reported accordingly; you don't have to approve of something to recognise its basis in fact. Just because something is nasty doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. Religion can't teach atheists about morality because believers would slaughter an infants school if they thought God told them to do it. They have abrogated any moral sense of their own and will do just what it says in their little book. We have an innate sense of right and wrong because that's what is wired into us over the course of many generations. Any society that was predicated on rape and murder would have died out aeons ago, obviously.