Commie sign-in thread

[Zenman]

I realize that my opinion is only mine, so here it is: We are all better off if we are all better off. Yes it is complicated and yes it can be very frustrating. So let's just chuck it and watch another episode of Jersey Wives with our best friend, beer.

I'm with you here except I'll be watching football and The Good Wife. To me it's not particularly complicated tho. The more socialism/communism, the less liberty we have. And big gov't doesn't help the cause.

[Zenman]

Since when did you get the idea you can live in a society and have everything your way?

I'm under no such delusion. Should I not prefer liberty tho over force and coercion?

[onan]

I'm with you here except I'll be watching football and The Good Wife. To me it's not particularly complicated tho. The more socialism/communism, the less liberty we have. And big gov't doesn't help the cause.

I am not sure what freedoms I have lost due to believing in and having a social safety net. I do think I have had some intangible freedoms lost due to religious zealotry, and political criminals.

I can see the argument that paying a larger amount in taxes makes it more difficult to be free in travel. But that is much more a market thing than a societal consequence.

Look, let me be the first to exclaim loudly, I hate paying taxes. I just hate people of little or no means not having shelter or food more.

To solve those issues takes not only lots of intelligence and management skill, but also engagement in the community. My retort about the Jersey wives was a sarcastic jab at those that not only disregard any social involvement but have disdain for those lower on the social ladder.

[onan]

I'm under no such delusion. Should I not prefer liberty tho?

Not to sound like some kind of egghead, but I have truly wrestled with that position for years. The only way I see to have complete liberty is to be alone on a deserted island.

[chefist]

One could simply say, "I'm not a communist, nor do I believe in the communist ideology...but I believe in paying more taxes to help my neighbor." That I would have respect for...

[onan]

One could simply say, "I'm not a communist, nor do I believe in the communist ideology...but I believe in paying more taxes to help my neighbor." That I would have respect for...

Me too, however, and you know this, if anyone of political inclination were to say that, they would be labeled as socialist, marxist, or communist before the day was over.

[chefist]

Me too, however, and you know this, if anyone of political inclination were to say that, they would be labeled as socialist, marxist, or communist before the day was over.

And if I wanted to own my own business i would be labeled a greedy capitalist... Even maybe a racist....the biggest obstacle today is how each political party has turned us against each other...

[Value Of Pi]

Could we all possibly agree that taxes and centralized governments are necessary evils that are easy to criticize but practically impossible to eliminate? This might not be your position exactly but could you sign onto it if you thought it would help end all the back-biting?

[Zenman]

I am not sure what freedoms I have lost due to believing in and having a social safety net. I do think I have had some intangible freedoms lost due to religious zealotry, and political criminals.

I can see the argument that paying a larger amount in taxes makes it more difficult to be free in travel. But that is much more a market thing than a societal consequence.

Look, let me be the first to exclaim loudly, I hate paying taxes. I just hate people of little or no means not having shelter or food more.

To solve those issues takes not only lots of intelligence and management skill, but also engagement in the community. My retort about the Jersey wives was a sarcastic jab at those that not only disregard any social involvement but have disdain for those lower on the social ladder.

Nothing wrong with a social safety net. The thing I have a problem with is that you apparently want other folks to be forced to pay for it.

[onan]

And if I wanted to own my own business i would be labeled a greedy capitalist... Even maybe a racist....the biggest obstacle today is how each political party has turned us against each other...

Several of my friends own businesses. I wouldn't call any of them greedy capitalists. I would call several of the CEO's I know that very thing. Look, I get it, everybody wants a piece of the pie. Me too.

Here's the thing, and it isn't easy for most, get to know some people that are caught in the social safety net.

Here is my conceit, I grew up in a very poor family. (if you listen closely... violins) For whatever the reason, my father couldn't hold a job. His health deteriorated and in his 50's he was disabled by the veteran's administration for injuries contracted during WWII. Even at that, the household income was paltry. I remember vividly as my father waited in line for a box of food from the welfare office. His shame, my shame, and the cruelty of a few onlookers that made some snide comments. I will never forget that moment and I pray to god no one I know ever has to live through anything similar.

So yeah, I don't mind paying more in taxes, even though it has taken me a much longer time to acquire things I have wanted all my life. 

[chefist]

Could we all possibly agree that taxes and centralized governments are necessary evils that are easy to criticize but practically impossible to eliminate? This might not be your position exactly but could you sign onto it if you thought it would help end all the back-biting?

Government and private enterprise are both necessary
..in which percentage? That's politics...

[chefist]

Several of my friends own businesses. I wouldn't call any of them greedy capitalists. I would call several of the CEO's I know that very thing. Look, I get it, everybody wants a piece of the pie. Me too.

Here's the thing, and it isn't easy for most, get to know some people that are caught in the social safety net.

Here is my conceit, I grew up in a very poor family. (if you listen closely... violins) For whatever the reason, my father couldn't hold a job. His health deteriorated and in his 50's he was disabled by the veteran's administration for injuries contracted during WWII. Even at that, the household income was paltry. I remember vividly as my father waited in line for a box of food from the welfare office. His shame, my shame, and the cruelty of a few onlookers that made some snide comments. I will never forget that moment and I pray to god no one I know ever has to live through anything similar.

So yeah, I don't mind paying more in taxes, even though it has taken me a much longer time to acquire things I have wanted all my life.

I would gladly pay more taxes if I trusted politicians... But I don't...

[GravitySucks]

I would gladly pay more taxes if I trusted politicians... But I don't...

I would rather (and do) give to charities of my choice than have politicians take it and give it to who they want to.

[onan]

I would gladly pay more taxes if I trusted politicians... But I don't...

There will always be excuses and reasons. Some good, others not as palatable. This is the society we live in. I don't know where there is one that is what you want.

[onan]

I would rather (and do) give to charities of my choice than have politicians take it and give it to who they want to.

Well, lots of people give to charities, it isn't enough. Sorry about that. I don't have the answers you want. I can tell you that what we have is a mess, with enough blame for everyone. Even us saintly do gooders on this forum.

[trostol]

politicians are a lot like employment opportunities..all about who you know these days

[chefist]

There will always be excuses and reasons. Some good, others not as palatable. This is the society we live in. I don't know where there is one that is what you want.

Republicans may ignore the needy...Democrats may ignore those who corrupt... I don't have the answer...

[trostol]

Republicans may ignore the needy...Democrats may ignore those who corrupt... I don't have the answer...

have a stiff drink? thats my answer!!!!

[onan]

Republicans may ignore the needy...Democrats may ignore those who corrupt... I don't have the answer...

Me either, believe me, I know several limousine liberals. I also know several republicans that are every bit as invested in helping the poor as what you would consider a liberal.

[chefist]

Me either, believe me, I know several limousine liberals. I also know several republicans that are every bit as invested in helping the poor as what you would consider a liberal.

I'm a firm believer in that two people may not agree politically... But both wish the best for all within their given ideology... Maybe if each side agreed on metrics...as long as the agreed upon metrics improved, then society could advance... But politics are based upon power... Megalomania... Not public good...

[Zenman]

I would gladly pay more taxes if I trusted politicians... But I don't...

I'd much rather see all those funds left instead in the pockets of us folks who earned it, bypassing the massive wastefulness of gov't, and going directly to the charities of our choice. (It might not be enough, but at least it would be voluntary.)

[Jackstar]

I'd much rather see all those funds left instead in the pockets of us folks who earned it, bypassing the massive wastefulness of gov't, and going directly to the charities of our choice. (It might not be enough, but at least it would be voluntary.)

hoi polloi chooses Macarena

[chefist]

I'd much rather see all those funds left instead in the pockets of us folks who earned it, bypassing the massive wastefulness of gov't, and going directly to the charities of our choice. (It might not be enough, but at least it would be voluntary.)

Yea we argue on the policy of how to help people... Amazing

[Mind Flayer Monk]

Commies please sign in and explain, if you would, why you would prefer more force and coercion rather than more liberty and freedom and such.

Not really trying to put you on the spot--I'm truly curious.

Socialists are welcome to sign in too.

Thanks

We place our retirement money and most of our wealth in a 401k or a pension-this money is then used to buy shares of the company and other companies. The employees own a large part of the company. The president of a company is still an employee of the company. Sounds like capitalism and communism have much in common to me.

[GravitySucks]

We place our retirement money and most of our wealth in a 401k or a pension-this money is then used to buy shares of the company and other companies. The employees own a large part of the company. The president of a company is still an employee of the company. Sounds like capitalism and communism have much in common to me.

You smoked way too much pot in school

[chefist]

We place our retirement money and most of our wealth in a 401k or a pension-this money is then used to buy shares of the company and other companies. The employees own a large part of the company. The president of a company is still an employee of the company. Sounds like capitalism and communism have much in common to me.

Fair point... Parse it out...who on an individual basis would own more personal property? Serfs in a monarchy, comrades in Communism or citizens in capitalism?

[Zenman]

Could we all possibly agree that taxes and centralized governments are necessary evils that are easy to criticize but practically impossible to eliminate? This might not be your position exactly but could you sign onto it if you thought it would help end all the back-biting?

Only if we can also agree that less taxes, smaller gov't, more liberty, and less force and coercion are all good.   

[chefist]

Only if we can also agree that less taxes, smaller gov't, more liberty, and less force and coercion are all good.   

I think most on the left believe the government makes better decisions than the individual...

[Mind Flayer Monk]

Fair point... Parse it out...who on an individual basis would own more personal property? Serfs in a monarchy, comrades in Communism or citizens in capitalism?

So far it seems like comrades in Communism (South Korea is pretty much Communist). However, the race isn't over yet. We still have a chance to make ourselves capitalist again.

[Value Of Pi]

Only if we can also agree that less taxes, smaller gov't, more liberty, and less force and coercion are all good.   

I don't see why anyone would object to this amendment. Obviously, there are always practical considerations but it would be a giant step forward if people and politicians could defend the need for taxes and government without being pilloried as communists or worse. They could still talk about excessive or unfair taxes or bloated government while throwing moderates a welcome bone. Far leftists, of course, will never be satisfied.