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Latest French Attacks: updates (in English)

Started by albrecht, November 13, 2015, 03:50:16 PM

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: paladin1991 on November 15, 2015, 02:10:34 AM
NO!  Going balls out against these assholes is exactly what is called for.  Extreme explosive violence right back in their face.  They are counting on everyone cowering in fear.  Farouk and Ahmed kick in the door of the restaurant where you are waiting for your reserved table.  Turning into the attack and counter attacking slows them down, jams them up in the doorway or vestibule.  Their plan is now derailed....for the moment.
 
You have taken away the advantage of surprise, the shock and awe.  But you are alone. You must disarm, kill or maim these assholes before they recover and steamroll through the restaurant. Now is the time that you are face to face with these murderous assholes that you need to pull your pistol or knife, strike with hands and feet, push your thumb into their eyes, reach up and rake their face grabbing their lower lip and pulling it fm their face...........anything and everything.  You are the whirlwind of rage.  You are the defender of your life.

Or you can wait to die.  As the 'professionals' attempt to negotiate with individuals who will not negotiate and are happily and busily sawing off heads.

You can't be serious. It was Paris. 9pm. The only guaranteed sober individuals would be the terrorists! You're suggesting a scenario that requires coordination, concentration a cool head. The French love their wine, oh yes. Imagine a dozen or even three half pissed civvies (who had never met before, let alone trained with firearms) stumbling round trying to locate the fuckers and then arranging a counter attack. Do soldiers train with firearms after a few bevvies?

paladin1991

Quote from: Yorkshire pud on November 15, 2015, 02:26:09 AM
You can't be serious. It was Paris. 9pm. The only guaranteed sober individuals would be the terrorists! You're suggesting a scenario that requires coordination, concentration a cool head. The French love their wine, oh yes. Imagine a dozen or even three half pissed civvies (who had never met before, let alone trained with firearms) stumbling round trying to locate the fuckers and then arranging a counter attack. Do soldiers train with firearms after a few bevvies?
You poor bastard.  You just don't get it, do you?

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: paladin1991 on November 15, 2015, 02:29:18 AM
You poor bastard.  You just don't get it, do you?

Get what exactly? That throwing untrained, uncoordinated, half pissed civvies up against highly motivated, well drilled, very well armed sober and coordinated terrorists would work out well?

You're an ex Marine; which adversary would you choose? One that is switched on, well trained with each other, used to cqb with live rounds, or a relaxed, drunk group of strangers? 

No brainer.

paladin1991

Quote from: Yorkshire pud on November 15, 2015, 02:40:07 AM
Get what exactly? That throwing untrained, uncoordinated, half pissed civvies up against highly motivated, well drilled, very well armed sober and coordinated terrorists would work out well?

You're an ex Marine; which adversary would you choose? One that is switched on, well trained with each other, used to cqb with live rounds, or a relaxed, drunk group of strangers? 

No brainer.

Any resistance is better than none.  You can wait, sober or drunk, for the kiss of the blade against your neck.  Drunk or sober, I will engage.  If one more drunk asshole makes it out the back door before Haji and the boys lock down the facility because I held them just  long enough....then I fucking win.   One less victim for Haji. I fucking win.

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: paladin1991 on November 15, 2015, 02:43:45 AM
Any resistance is better than none.  You can wait, sober or drunk, for the kiss of the blade against your neck.  Drunk or sober, I will engage.  If one more drunk asshole makes it out the back door before Haji and the boys lock down the facility because I held them just  long enough....then I fucking win.   One less victim for Haji. I fucking win.

Yeah. That works everyday in every country that has civvies routinely not trained the way soldiers are, up against sober well armed (and bobby trapped with bombs strapped to their bodies) adversaries.

SredniVashtar

Quote from: Yorkshire pud on November 15, 2015, 02:49:36 AM
Yeah. That works everyday in every country that has civvies routinely not trained the way soldiers are, up against sober well armed (and bobby trapped with bombs strapped to their bodies) adversaries.

I don't think these guys are necessarily sober either. That's part of my point; you might be in a situation where they are as scared as the hostages, and making some pre-meditated attack before you know what the situation is could escalate things too quickly, and you end up throwing away the only card you have. It's too easy to dream up a scenario where the hostages rise up as one, armed and angry, and overthrow their captors, but you are going to need a lot of luck for that to work, and a lot of trained personnel to hold it all together, otherwise it's a turkey shoot for the guys with the guns. It's not a sign of weakness to take a moment to appraise the situation before reacting. There are so many variables in something like this that going Bruce Willis at the first sign of trouble would almost certainly prove to be the very worst of all possible bad ideas.

Yorkshire pud

Anyone who still holds aspirations that untrained armed civvies could do the job of professionals with no extra casualties, take 90 minutes out of your life and watch this. This really happened, and until this, few had even heard of the SAS let alone knew what they did. The rock concert in Paris was a seige, but the vermin didn't care if they lived or died, and as they were bombed up, it's a fair guess that dying was their intention anyway. 89 have died so far just from that concert hall, many more are in hospital. That is from two or three who were taking aim at anyone who wasn't them...imagine all the audience being armed, who were they going to aim at?

https://youtu.be/rAmfGJrvl00

Meister_000

Quote from: pyewacket on November 14, 2015, 10:45:42 PM
Thank you for posting this, bateman. I'm shocked that the world governments have yet to take them seriously. This is not just some extremist religious movement. They are time travellers of the worst kind. The only comparison I can come up with in modern pop culture is the Borg from Star Trek The Next Generation- only in their case, dragging humanity back into a violent dark age with no hope of a future.

Pyewacket;  a message from The Captain . . .

"In this scene, the captain of the U.S.S. Enterprise confers with his officers on what to do about The Borg."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpyC0IaT7oY

Earlier this year on the radio I heard a report about the United Arab Emirate's (UAE) upcoming plans for _Space_ and my jaw dropped at the realization of the prospects . . .
"God NO!, Islam in Space!!!  for God's sakes! Such a nightmare CANNOT BE ALLOWED TO COME TO PASS. It must end here, and now, on Earth!" Islam allowed to migrate off-planet and into Space is absolutely an INTOLERABLE scenario, the height of global irresponsibility.

I don't have time right now to research and post, but, a couple of quick Google searches with any combination of terms like (Arab, Islamic, Iranian, Saudi, Russian, UAE, plus--> "Space Program" <-- might begin to shock-some-sense into people -- knowing what we already know about Islam and projecting out into the future, what our children have to look-forward to, unimaginable. It would be unforgivable to permit such developments to unfold.
Sleep tight!

P.S. Google/YouTube has apparently done their final roll-out (as of yesterday) of its new interface so I can't predict how or if the above video link might work.

chefist

Quote from: Yorkshire pud on November 15, 2015, 04:49:22 AM
Anyone who still holds aspirations that untrained armed civvies could do the job of professionals with no extra casualties, take 90 minutes out of your life and watch this. This really happened, and until this, few had even heard of the SAS let alone knew what they did. The rock concert in Paris was a seige, but the vermin didn't care if they lived or died, and as they were bombed up, it's a fair guess that dying was their intention anyway. 89 have died so far just from that concert hall, many more are in hospital. That is from two or three who were taking aim at anyone who wasn't them...imagine all the audience being armed, who were they going to aim at?

https://youtu.be/rAmfGJrvl00

Is your argument that it's better that the civilians be unarmed and die rather than be armed and accidentally kill an innocent?

I'm just trying to understand.

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: chefist on November 15, 2015, 07:43:11 AM
Is your argument that it's better that the civilians be unarmed and die rather than be armed and accidentally kill an innocent?

I'm just trying to understand.

My argument is that untrained armed civilains make a very bad situation even worse. Ask the average cop/soldier who they'd take out in a siege not knowing who was who..the one with the weapon or the one without..

Is your argument that it's better to arm untrained and uncoordinated civilians who are in a highly volatile, panicked scenario not knowing who or where the assailant is and just fire at anything they perceive as the enemy?

Please cite examples where a mass shooting has worked out well when armed civilians have brought a successful end to an attack by heavily armed and booby trapped assailants.



chefist

But to be clear, yes, you do advocate that those civilians do not have a right to self defense and will die so as to prevent an accidental death.

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: chefist on November 15, 2015, 07:55:32 AM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/04/20/uber-driver-with-gun-apparently-stops-would-be-mass-shooter-have-civilians-stopped-such-mass-shootings-before/

One? Is that it? The details are thus:

Quote
who shot and wounded a gunman who opened fire on a crowd of people in Logan Square over the weekend….

A group of people had been walking in front of the driver around 11:50 p.m. in the 2900 block of North Milwaukee Avenue when Everardo Custodio, 22, began firing into the crowd, Quinn said.

The driver pulled out a handgun and fired six shots at Custodio, hitting him several times, according to court records. Responding officers found Custodio lying on the ground, bleeding, Quinn said. No other injuries were reported.

No mention of a concert hall, darkness, confusion, panic, body bombs, more panic...One guy shoots one other. Mind you, you only have 80 murders a day in the US so clearly arming everyone would reduce that....

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: chefist on November 15, 2015, 07:57:26 AM
But to be clear, yes, you do advocate that those civilians do not have a right to self defense and will die so as to prevent an accidental death.

No I don't advocate that; but your fanciful Hollywood scenario is just that, fanciful. Put yourself in the position in the concert hall where so far 89 were killed (many more in hospital)...and you and everyone else is armed...you can't hear the shots to begin with because it's loud, then it becomes apparent something is wrong..panic then starts, people start falling, more panic, who would you shoot-bear in mind, 30-40 others are also armed and have drawn their weapons... Who would YOU shoot? Also bear in mind that the whole scenario lasted as long as it took to read this far.

chefist

Quote from: Yorkshire pud on November 15, 2015, 08:03:15 AM
No I don't advocate that; but your fanciful Hollywood scenario is just that, fanciful. Put yourself in the position in the concert hall where so far 89 were killed (many more in hospital)...and you and everyone else is armed...you can't hear the shots to begin with because it's loud, then it becomes apparent something is wrong..panic then starts, people start falling, more panic, who would you shoot-bare in mind, 30-40 others are also armed and have drawn their weapons... Who would YOU shoot?

If you could ask a terrorist,  would you rather carry out your evil plans against armed or unarmed civilians, what do you think they will say?

If a terrorist was killing people, and my 7 year old daughter is next to me and a person by me had a gun...I would hope they would use it! I don't care about accidental death, because with the terrorist my daughter and I are 100% dead!

Either way I do have firearms and I am trained in their use...if you don't want to own one, don't...but you cannot take away my right to protect myself and my family...




Yorkshire pud

Quote from: chefist on November 15, 2015, 08:09:31 AM
If you could ask a terrorist,  would you rather carry out your evil plans against armed or unarmed civilians, what do you think they will say?

If a terrorist was killing people, and my 7 year old daughter is next to me and a person by me had a gun...I would hope they would use it! I don't care about accidental death, because with the terrorist my daughter and I are 100% dead!

Either way I do have firearms and I am trained in their use...if you don't want to own one, don't...but you cannot take away my right to protect myself and my family...


As it happened...who is your target? Who would you shoot knowing what you can see and hear in this video?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-34825865

chefist

Quote from: Yorkshire pud on November 15, 2015, 08:00:16 AM
One? Is that it? The details are thus:

No mention of a concert hall, darkness, confusion, panic, body bombs, more panic...One guy shoots one other. Mind you, you only have 80 murders a day in the US so clearly arming everyone would reduce that....

Look, if you want to curl up in a ball and die that is your prerogative...I'm not...

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: chefist on November 15, 2015, 08:09:31 AM
If you could ask a terrorist,  would you rather carry out your evil plans against armed or unarmed civilians, what do you think they will say?

If a terrorist was killing people, and my 7 year old daughter is next to me and a person by me had a gun...I would hope they would use it! I don't care about accidental death, because with the terrorist my daughter and I are 100% dead!

Either way I do have firearms and I am trained in their use...if you don't want to own one, don't...but you cannot take away my right to protect myself and my family...


I asked who you'd shoot in the scenario, and you can't give an answer because you know that the panic in others and you and your daughter would overwhelm any Segal heroism you might hope you had.

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: chefist on November 15, 2015, 08:10:57 AM
Look, if you want to curl up in a ball and die that is your prerogative...I'm not...

You'd still end up dead..

chefist

Quote from: Yorkshire pud on November 15, 2015, 08:00:16 AM
One? Is that it? The details are thus:

No mention of a concert hall, darkness, confusion, panic, body bombs, more panic...One guy shoots one other. Mind you, you only have 80 murders a day in the US so clearly arming everyone would reduce that....

Where is your example that an armed civilian defending themselves against a terrorist/mass shooter accidentally shot an innocent?

chefist

Quote from: Yorkshire pud on November 15, 2015, 08:13:24 AM
You'd still end up dead..

I'll take that chance being armed rather than a 100% chance in your shoes...

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: chefist on November 15, 2015, 08:15:29 AM
Where is your example that an armed civilian defending themselves against a terrorist/mass shooter accidentally shot an innocent?

I can go better than that; Assault troops 'rescuing' hostages.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/01/beslan-school-massacre-ten-years

Your scenario is difficult because it's not possible to prove a negative. But I'm sure you can give more examples of a siege being successfully coming to a favourable conclusion by armed civilians with no further casualties..

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: chefist on November 15, 2015, 08:16:45 AM
I'll take that chance being armed rather than a 100% chance in your shoes...


Hmmm, there are lots of examples of people 'playing dead' and avoided being killed.

SredniVashtar

Quote from: chefist on November 15, 2015, 08:09:31 AM
Either way I do have firearms and I am trained in their use...if you don't want to own one, don't...but you cannot take away my right to protect myself and my family...

All of the scenarios that gun owners use seem far too simple to me. It's one thing being trained to use a gun, quite another to use one in a combat situation and expect you to have anywhere near the same degree of effectiveness that you might have shooting skeet. Also, if you have a situation where there are multiple semi-trained 'good guys' getting off shots in a confused, dark environment, and then the police burst in at the same time firing at whoever has a gun, where does it make any sense to have firearms? I can understand that you see it as your only means of self-defence, but it strikes me as nothing more than a security blanket that will greatly increase the chances of you and your loved ones being killed.

chefist

Quote from: Yorkshire pud on November 15, 2015, 08:21:58 AM

Hmmm, there are lots of examples of people 'playing dead' and avoided being killed.

So that it your recommendation...play dead...dear God, I'm frightened for you Europeans...

chefist

Quote from: SredniVashtar on November 15, 2015, 08:29:59 AM
All of the scenarios that gun owners use seem far too simple to me. It's one thing being trained to use a gun, quite another to use one in a combat situation and expect you to have anywhere near the same degree of effectiveness that you might have shooting skeet. Also, if you have a situation where there are multiple semi-trained 'good guys' getting off shots in a confused, dark environment, and then the police burst in at the same time firing at whoever has a gun, where does it make any sense to have firearms? I can understand that you see it as your only means of self-defence, but it strikes me as nothing more than a security blanket that will greatly increase the chances of you and your loved ones being killed.

This is perfect leftist rhetoric..."Do we focus on terrorism?" "No, we focus on preventing people from defending themselves."

Where is the vitriol for the terrorists? Nope, don't see it...just for law abiding gun owners...

SredniVashtar

Quote from: chefist on November 15, 2015, 08:31:17 AM
This is perfect leftist rhetoric..."Do we focus on terrorism?" "No, we focus on preventing people from defending themselves."

Where is the vitriol for the terrorists? Nope, don't see it...just for law abiding gun owners...

There is plenty of vitriol for the terrorists. The question is whether you are really defending yourselves or making it worse. If I thought it would help then I would be in favour of it, but you seem to have a paranoid sense that it is all about turning you into a defenceless sheepfold rather than simply questioning the effectiveness of firearms. The prevailing ethos since 9/11 has always been that if we keep hitting the bad guys harder and harder we are bound to get there in the end, despite abundant evidence that it hasn't worked and merely makes things worse not better. I was just listening to Art's show earlier, and he still hasn't given up that idea. I think guns give a false sense of security that actually exacerbates most problems, I don't consider that leftist, but simply common sense.

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: chefist on November 15, 2015, 08:30:04 AM
So that it your recommendation...play dead...dear God, I'm frightened for you Europeans...


Don't be scared.. We're not close to catching up with your attrition rate. I'm happy that we're not in a race to do so either..

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: chefist on November 15, 2015, 08:31:17 AM
This is perfect leftist rhetoric..."Do we focus on terrorism?" "No, we focus on preventing people from defending themselves."

Where is the vitriol for the terrorists? Nope, don't see it...just for law abiding gun owners...


Ahh yes, vitriol will really scare them off! Think with your brain and not your machismo. The UK was dealing with (partly) US funded terrorists long before the current crop.

chefist

Quote from: SredniVashtar on November 15, 2015, 08:46:42 AM
There is plenty of vitriol for the terrorists. The question is whether you are really defending yourselves or making it worse. If I thought it would help then I would be in favour of it, but you seem to have a paranoid sense that it is all about turning you into a defenceless sheepfold rather than simply questioning the effectiveness of firearms. The prevailing ethos since 9/11 has always been that if we keep hitting the bad guys harder and harder we are bound to get there in the end, despite abundant evidence that it hasn't worked and merely makes things worse not better. I was just listening to Art's show earlier, and he still hasn't given up that idea. I think guns give a false sense of security that actually exacerbates most problems, I don't consider that leftist, but simply common sense.

Each side of an argument considers it "common sense"...that's like saying, "you are a smart person, you would have to agree with me." No, I don't have to agree with that...

Look, you live in a country with strict gun control laws...good for you! You democratically chose those policies...cheers...but that doesn’t apply here in the US..I'll choose to protect myself and my family instead of rolling up in the fetal position and dying...

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