Author What are social justice warriors losing their shit about today?  (Read 83384 times)

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Re: What are social justice warriors losing their shit about today?
« Reply #120 on: June 21, 2015, 07:19:28 PM »
Most of the traditional western canon already has been thrown out <g>. That said, it's a bit different with Shakespeare than the classics. Most of the classics were books in the first place or at least recited verse. Not so with Shakespeare, his are plays and to just read them as literature just doesn't give a sense of what the piece is like unless you're a director or an actor. One might as well just give a cliff notes synopsis and it would convey the themes and story better. And the comedies are hopeless, "As You Like It" isn't funny unless you know things like in Shakespeare's time the words Hour and Whore and Ripe and Rape were pronounced identically. Since so much of his humor is based on puns, the nature of the jokes are completely lost almost to the point that the plot itself is less apparent because of it.

Don't get me wrong, I love Shakespeare, but 25 years ago in High School I was basically the only person in the room other than the teacher that understood it. We could have done just as well with a synopsis and freed up more time for studying later literature that's arguably just as important as Shakespeare. Victor Hugo, for example, was entirely ignored in my high school and our study of Moby Dick went no further than watching the Gregory Peck movie even though Melville was an American and the story has arguably more depth and substance than anything Shakespeare wrote.

Actually there's a good amount of evidence for Shakespeare's accent due to a number of period writers that were writing on the English language itself. The study of linguistics had already started by that time, so they're are a number of sources that explain to us how things were pronounced. You'll never get it 100% I'm sure, but it's not like middle English where there's tons of guesswork or Roman Latin which is thought to have been pronounced entirely differently than church Latin and no doubt had multiple accents across the Roman Empire of which we have no idea how they would have sounded. 

(Sorry for the windy responses, I'm a writer, literature and language fascinate me).
A lot of the classics were also plays, oratories, prayers, political debates, etc also. And can still be enjoyed reading, without acting or forcing the student (though I think it should be done) to recite them aloud in class. But I see your point. I agree that reading them takes a certain talent and likely more appreciated when done as a play was intended. Even, when the production is bizarre or modernized. (For, to use a modern, personal example, I cannot stand reading screen-plays but might like the rare modern movie that comes from them.) But, as I mentioned in my "Simpson" apolegetics you can still get "some" meaning- just maybe not to certain levels.

One of my arguments for teaching religion (Christian, Ancient Greco-Roman, Norse, etc,) not as for "religious purposes," since some are dead, but it also to understand themes, arguments, motivations, and allusions in our great works- and understand history.

I see nothing wrong with Western Civilization, and the canon, I and don't believe that "just because you aren't white" you cannot appreciate or handle it. Some of the best "classical" music players today are Asian, for one quick example of the inanity of that claim!  Public schools, instead of wasting millions on soon-to-be obsolete versions of iPads, should go to a used book store and buy a complete set of the Harvard Classics, as a start.
ps: I don't mind long replies. One of the problems is the "twitter" and phenomena that all answers, discussions, or comments must be short. Maybe teach typing and reading better and it won't be such a hardship on people to read a longer-winded message. ;)

Re: What are social justice warriors losing their shit about today?
« Reply #121 on: June 21, 2015, 07:48:23 PM »
Sad. But I don't like either approach. One teacher wants to get rid of Shakespeare entirely (and apparently focus on minority writers as though white people don't exist) and the counterpoint wants to "modernize" it. The truth is that both are the wrong answer. Leave it alone and if no one understands it, then leave it for higher classes. Part of Shakespeare is the language, when modernized all the puns and plays on words and the iambic pentameter and all that go away. The intent of the story will come through better, but that's only part of the point. It's putting Shakespeare on life support.

In light of that, I think they should simply stop teaching it altogether in high school. We've moved too far past him in time linguistically and even modern productions of his stories use received pronunciation instead of his original accent which means we've misunderstood Shakespeare for the last two hundred years anyway. If you see the rare one using his reconstructed 16th century London accent, everything changes. The whole tone and character becomes something very different and the haughty play people get all pissy because Richard III suddenly sounds like a pirate. But if you want to catch his puns and plays on words, it's the only way.

It's funny, but I hear quite clearly how American accents derived from this template - much more than with later dialects.

Anyhoo, Shakespeare was also a brilliant poet whose sonnets could be studied on that basis alone. Of course, with the triumph of narcissism, we acknowledge no masters. Everything is about tireless self-expression in that meandering, punctuated blank verse of entirely egocentric view - as boring as it is meaningless. There is no striving to attain deeper meaning or broader humanitarian import in the tempests, nae, slings and arrows of life. No sacrifice, no milk of human kindness, no forgiveness. Expression is now, "Look at my bling and my bitches and watch as I smear my poop on a wall. Yeah, baby, that's Art!"

Re: What are social justice warriors losing their shit about today?
« Reply #122 on: June 21, 2015, 08:03:00 PM »
A lot of the classics were also plays, oratories, prayers, political debates, etc also. And can still be enjoyed reading, without acting or forcing the student (though I think it should be done) to recite them aloud in class. But I see your point. I agree that reading them takes a certain talent and likely more appreciated when done as a play was intended. Even, when the production is bizarre or modernized. (For, to use a modern, personal example, I cannot stand reading screen-plays but might like the rare modern movie that comes from them.) But, as I mentioned in my "Simpson" apolegetics you can still get "some" meaning- just maybe not to certain levels.

One of my arguments for teaching religion (Christian, Ancient Greco-Roman, Norse, etc,) not as for "religious purposes," since some are dead, but it also to understand themes, arguments, motivations, and allusions in our great works- and understand history.

I see nothing wrong with Western Civilization, and the canon, I and don't believe that "just because you aren't white" you cannot appreciate or handle it. Some of the best "classical" music players today are Asian, for one quick example of the inanity of that claim!  Public schools, instead of wasting millions on soon-to-be obsolete versions of iPads, should go to a used book store and buy a complete set of the Harvard Classics, as a start.
ps: I don't mind long replies. One of the problems is the "twitter" and phenomena that all answers, discussions, or comments must be short. Maybe teach typing and reading better and it won't be such a hardship on people to read a longer-winded message. ;)

I'm actually quite western centric in that I firmly believe the Western World to be the epitome of human civilization to date, and should be spread far and wide. I also don't disagree on teaching religion as a cultural component. And again, your correct in that there are black Shakespearean troops and western culture does not equate "white" any more than Muslim equates Arab. It's just that unless it's understandable, it's unteachable and that puts some works into a futility basket. The Greek texts you can translate and play with to give them a more modern meaning. But when, say, Marcus Aurelius' Meditations are more understandable than Shakespeare, you run into a conundrum of whether to teach it because modernizing Shakespeare destroys his dialogue but at the same time his dialogue has become unintelligible for most people. 

I still have my complete set of Harvard Classics. Though funny enough there are tons of obscure public domain works available for Kindle on both Amazon and Project Gutenberg. Basically any classics you want. I'm currently reading Virgil's The Georgics again on kindle.

Re: What are social justice warriors losing their shit about today?
« Reply #123 on: June 21, 2015, 08:04:43 PM »

Are you familiar with Pat Condell? He has some funny videos on Youtube- good for a laugh, but I'm afraid he's going more political now.

I enjoy his channel.

Re: What are social justice warriors losing their shit about today?
« Reply #124 on: June 21, 2015, 08:10:33 PM »
I'm actually quite western centric in that I firmly believe the Western World to be the epitome of human civilization to date, and should be spread far and wide. I also don't disagree on teaching religion as a cultural component. And again, your correct in that there are black Shakespearean troops and western culture does not equate "white" any more than Muslim equates Arab. It's just that unless it's understandable, it's unteachable and that puts some works into a futility basket. The Greek texts you can translate and play with to give them a more modern meaning. But when, say, Marcus Aurelius' Meditations are more understandable than Shakespeare, you run into a conundrum of whether to teach it because modernizing Shakespeare destroys his dialogue but at the same time his dialogue has become unintelligible for most people. 

I still have my complete set of Harvard Classics. Though funny enough there are tons of obscure public domain works available for Kindle on both Amazon and Project Gutenberg. Basically any classics you want. I'm currently reading Virgil's The Georgics again on kindle.
Though I still don't quite "like" my kindle I've seen how you can get free books and so doing so with abandon! I also don't consider it a crime to use torrents to get things like "complete works of Seneca the Younger." I'm guessing any copyright his relatives or publisher had is far gone and now his works are in the public domain- though I'm guessing the NSA still is tracking me and TPP might get me jailed for it- after whatever secretive, retroactive copyright laws are enacted in it.... ;)



Re: What are social justice warriors losing their shit about today?
« Reply #125 on: June 21, 2015, 08:17:09 PM »
It's funny, but I hear quite clearly how American accents derived from this template - much more than with later dialects.

Anyhoo, Shakespeare was also a brilliant poet whose sonnets could be studied on that basis alone. Of course, with the triumph of narcissism, we acknowledge no masters. Everything is about tireless self-expression in that meandering, punctuated blank verse of entirely egocentric view - as boring as it is meaningless. There is no striving to attain deeper meaning or broader humanitarian import in the tempests, nae, slings and arrows of life. No sacrifice, no milk of human kindness, no forgiveness. Expression is now, "Look at my bling and my bitches and watch as I smear my poop on a wall. Yeah, baby, that's Art!"

Yes, American derives more or less directly from Shakespeare's London accent. You can hear it most prominently with how we pronounce the letter R, we actually pronounce it, as did Shakespeare, but it fell out of favor in England during the Napoleonic period. I think it's poetic justice really; we've taken so much heat from the British over our accent and yet it turns out that our accents are actually reminiscent of the Bard.

You're not kidding about narcissism and art. I see it most prominently in film today, where most movies are just circuses entirely devoid of any substance whatsoever.

Re: What are social justice warriors losing their shit about today?
« Reply #126 on: June 21, 2015, 08:21:08 PM »
Though I still don't quite "like" my kindle I've seen how you can get free books and so doing so with abandon! I also don't consider it a crime to use torrents to get things like "complete works of Seneca the Younger." I'm guessing any copyright his relatives or publisher had is far gone and now his works are in the public domain- though I'm guessing the NSA still is tracking me and TPP might get me jailed for it- after whatever secretive, retroactive copyright laws are enacted in it.... ;)

I'm at peace with my kindle app on my Ipad, but not quite at peace with the Ipad itself. Siri . . . well they might as well just give that program the voice of an NSA agent.

Re: What are social justice warriors losing their shit about today?
« Reply #127 on: June 22, 2015, 04:39:00 AM »
I enjoy his channel.

Damn, I thought yew sed:


"I enjoy his channel."

My bad...

GNS

Re: What are social justice warriors losing their shit about today?
« Reply #128 on: June 22, 2015, 04:45:03 AM »
I'm at peace with my kindle app on my Ipad, but not quite at peace with the Ipad itself. Siri . . . well they might as well just give that program the voice of an NSA agent.

I am Not Sure if I should call yew and infidel or kaffir...

I'll be sure to refer it to my higher ups...

Yew are no6.  heh

Re: What are social justice warriors losing their shit about today?
« Reply #129 on: June 22, 2015, 10:18:24 AM »
I am Not Sure if I should call yew and infidel or kaffir...

I'll be sure to refer it to my higher ups...

Yew are no6.  heh

Kaffir please.

Re: What are social justice warriors losing their shit about today?
« Reply #130 on: June 23, 2015, 01:39:08 AM »
I don't want to say too much but I was in the absolute epicenter and factory of where social justice warriors are made and programmed. I have stories that will absolutely bend your mind on how fake and insane that racket and its leaders are. Its one the biggest reasons I've pursued a private life focusing on building personal wealth and staying as far away from the mainstream as possible.

Re: What are social justice warriors losing their shit about today?
« Reply #131 on: June 23, 2015, 01:42:54 AM »
the absolute epicenter and factory of where social justice warriors are made and programmed.





Re: What are social justice warriors losing their shit about today?
« Reply #133 on: June 23, 2015, 12:15:57 PM »
Yes, American derives more or less directly from Shakespeare's London accent. You can hear it most prominently with how we pronounce the letter R, we actually pronounce it, as did Shakespeare, but it fell out of favor in England during the Napoleonic period.




Not so. Shakespeare was born and raised in Stratford and would have had a West-Midlands accent, which is nothing like a Southern/London accent. Also people would have sounded very different then anyway, as there was something curious that happened around that time that linguists call 'the great vowel shift'. Shakespeare as it is played today with very cut glass elocution would have been nothing like what you would have heard in the 16th century.


The American 'R' sound is what phoneticians call the 'dark R'. As to why it is standard there and not so here I have no idea. But it is worth noting that a lot of your most famous figures like Franklin and Jefferson would have had accents approximating to something from the East of England, a bit rustic, a bit yokel-ish even, to my southern ears.

Re: What are social justice warriors losing their shit about today?
« Reply #134 on: June 23, 2015, 12:28:36 PM »
Most of the traditional western canon already has been thrown out <g>. That said, it's a bit different with Shakespeare than the classics. Most of the classics were books in the first place or at least recited verse. Not so with Shakespeare, his are plays and to just read them as literature just doesn't give a sense of what the piece is like unless you're a director or an actor. One might as well just give a cliff notes synopsis and it would convey the themes and story better. And the comedies are hopeless, "As You Like It" isn't funny unless you know things like in Shakespeare's time the words Hour and Whore and Ripe and Rape were pronounced identically.


I used to be of your opinion. I think it matters very much what you are reading from. The best set of the complete works I have found is by  the RSC, which explains all the obscure words. As a rule, if you don't understand a word, it is usually slang for a penis or a vagina. And I am not joking. Starting from Hamlet's 'country matters' line to Ophelia on, it is all very earthy and below the waist.


Re: What are social justice warriors losing their shit about today?
« Reply #136 on: June 23, 2015, 03:56:36 PM »

Not so. Shakespeare was born and raised in Stratford and would have had a West-Midlands accent, which is nothing like a Southern/London accent. Also people would have sounded very different then anyway, as there was something curious that happened around that time that linguists call 'the great vowel shift'. Shakespeare as it is played today with very cut glass elocution would have been nothing like what you would have heard in the 16th century.


The American 'R' sound is what phoneticians call the 'dark R'. As to why it is standard there and not so here I have no idea. But it is worth noting that a lot of your most famous figures like Franklin and Jefferson would have had accents approximating to something from the East of England, a bit rustic, a bit yokel-ish even, to my southern ears.

Today it's just delivered in received pronunciation as opposed to Shakespeare's original pronunciation productions, which are probably more trying for the accent of his London actors than he himself.

Actually a really good effort at reconstructing the accents of Jefferson, Franklin and George III was done a few years ago in a series called "John Adams". They brought in linguists and went through a lot of trouble to train the actors to get things as close as possible. It's particularly odd to hear the British speaking because the dark R was apparently still standard at that time.



And a British actor playing Franklin with a proto-American accent.


Re: What are social justice warriors losing their shit about today?
« Reply #137 on: June 23, 2015, 03:58:55 PM »

I used to be of your opinion. I think it matters very much what you are reading from. The best set of the complete works I have found is by  the RSC, which explains all the obscure words. As a rule, if you don't understand a word, it is usually slang for a penis or a vagina. And I am not joking. Starting from Hamlet's 'country matters' line to Ophelia on, it is all very earthy and below the waist.

That's actually what l like about Shakespeare most, he was actually really bawdy for a major literary figure.

Re: What are social justice warriors losing their shit about today?
« Reply #138 on: June 23, 2015, 04:31:17 PM »
Shakespeare was not a major figure at the time. Chaucer was even raunchier.





Re: What are social justice warriors losing their shit about today?
« Reply #142 on: June 23, 2015, 06:46:39 PM »
Absolutely Orwellian:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/06/22/the-university-of-california-s-insane-speech-police.html


It would nice if these little fuckers would actually read a history book. At this point, I'd settle for these entitled children reading beyond the first paragraph of a "6 Fucked Up Things In History" clickbait article.

Re: What are social justice warriors losing their shit about today?
« Reply #143 on: June 23, 2015, 06:56:00 PM »
Have they replaced their Birkenstocks with jackboots yet?

So, what do we do to bring some sanity back to this Country?


Re: What are social justice warriors losing their shit about today?
« Reply #144 on: June 23, 2015, 07:03:34 PM »
So, what do we do to bring some sanity back to this Country?
Get out of the subdivisions and get to the woods.

Re: What are social justice warriors losing their shit about today?
« Reply #145 on: June 23, 2015, 07:06:15 PM »
So, what do we do to bring some sanity back to this Country?


I'm not sure, this extremist liberal thing in this country is absolutely twisted. I can't go into a lot of detail but a friend got into an argument with one of the queen bees about freedom of speech in entertainment, made her look stupid very publicly. A little while later a tumblr article that a couple "media" outlets picked up came out about how they threatened her and her family with a gun when they had never even met that person.


Watching the rise of this silliness is very reminiscent of disgusting socialist takeovers through the 20th century. They're trying to destroy free speech and dictate the narrative with a generation of useful idiots with poor education and critical thinking skills leading the way.

Re: What are social justice warriors losing their shit about today?
« Reply #146 on: June 23, 2015, 07:13:48 PM »
Get out of the subdivisions and get to the woods.

I am already there... But I was talking more in terms of the tactics required to excise the thought-control being promulgated by that fucking lunatic jack-boot wearing softball player, Janet Napolitano...

Re: What are social justice warriors losing their shit about today?
« Reply #147 on: June 23, 2015, 07:15:26 PM »

I'm not sure, this extremist liberal thing in this country is absolutely twisted. I can't go into a lot of detail but a friend got into an argument with one of the queen bees about freedom of speech in entertainment, made her look stupid very publicly. A little while later a tumblr article that a couple "media" outlets picked up came out about how they threatened her and her family with a gun when they had never even met that person.


Watching the rise of this silliness is very reminiscent of disgusting socialist takeovers through the 20th century. They're trying to destroy free speech and dictate the narrative with a generation of useful idiots with poor education and critical thinking skills leading the way.

There is only one cure for this - the same as it has always been for all of history. You cannot negotiate with cancer.

Re: What are social justice warriors losing their shit about today?
« Reply #148 on: June 23, 2015, 07:27:59 PM »
You cannot negotiate with cancer.

can confirm:


Re: What are social justice warriors losing their shit about today?
« Reply #149 on: June 23, 2015, 09:59:00 PM »
Get out of the subdivisions and get to the woods.
As an academic, thought exercise: t would be interesting if everyone, including businesses, actually it would only take a size-able percentage, refused to pay Federal taxes, massive use of jury nullification, use the "urban" "don't snitch" theory to apply to their environmental-offending, thought-crime, or tax-notpaying neighbors, and if hackers released personal information, especially with regard to the homosexual or pedophilia and infidelity and financial shenanigans of politicians and if a size-able percentage of our police, firefighters, and military members up and quit and moved to "the woods" or decent suburbs and small towns and refused to serve in "urban areas", protect politicians, serve in foreign wars, etc. And for all local and state LEOs, prosecutors, etc refuse to comply, or work, with any Federal investigations. If governor, with full agreement with our the local troops based there (or size-able majority) seized all arms in local Army and National Guard depots and cut off utilities to any other Federal agencies, bases, or offices. And refused to go to war but instead defended their family, area, town, and the States/National borders. And if local, State, etc politicians, LEOs, judges, etc refused to enforce Federal judge's orders or decisions or regulations demanded by the various Federal regulatory agencies. This thought exercise could include also other forms of protest targeting large corporations who control, for the most part, the politicians are who seem to be intend for the globalist, open-border, cheap labor, politically correct, Orwellian super-state. Like everyone not paying certain debt (and local sheriffs etc refusing to enforce evictions,) hacking, not buying their products, and so forth. Even large moral victories could be interesting. What if, at least nationally, almost nobody voted? I mean even less than our usual pathetic numbers? Could our politicians, with a straight face, face other countries, the public, etc if turn-out numbers were amazingly low? (Probably they could but it would, or might, be funny.)

 Ideally, we could still have a nuclear arsenal that would, hopefully, stop another country invading during the power vacuum that would exist for time until things settle down until a brokered agreement (like our Consitution) could be arranged, but adhered too this time, that would be more fair and free to the People and States, as we originally intended.