Airtraffic Control: diversity more important than training, experience, aptitude

[albrecht]

http://www.foxbusiness.com/industries/2015/05/20/trouble-in-skies/
It is FOX so I questioned a bit but more research makes it seem that this is true. What is more crazy is that they also helping them cheat at the tests, to promote the diversity. I know my local FD was under-fire by this administration for not being diverse enough. Austin, the most rightwing city , didn't have enough "diversity" and so needed to lower standards for hiring firefighters and make a settlement to have slots for various race/ethnicities regardless if there are more qualified candidates, because, when being rescued in a fire or being responded to after an accident or heart-attack you really want to ensure that you first responder is "diversive," who cares if qualified.
http://www.statesman.com/news/news/crime-law/department-of-justice-austin-settle-firefighter-di/ngHcG/
I guess the 'affirmative action' President is mandating this at the FAA also, surprise.

Remember how much flak when Reagan went against the union? Apparently today you join special race-based unions groups and can get the test answers and "diversity" is more important than training, experience, or aptitude but I'm guessing this won't make much national news. Until something bad happens and even then it will be blamed on Reagan (or Bush cause everything is his fault) or the usual fall-back of racism/classism/sexism/capitalism maybe.

Have fun on your summer vacation if you fly!

[ItsOver]

I try to avoid flying at all cost.  Not that I don't enjoy having the TSA feel me up and treat me like a convict.

[SciFiAuthor]

I have to fly fairly frequently and I've noticed a trend towards apathy among airport security staff. When all this formed up after 9/11 they were too interested in security and went overboard but now they just sort of look at you half-heartedly much like a lion that's just gorged himself on a gazelle and knows that you might be food, but he's just too damned full to bother taking you down.

[albrecht]

I have to fly fairly frequently and I've noticed a trend towards apathy among airport security staff. When all this formed up after 9/11 they were too interested in security and went overboard but now they just sort of look at you half-heartedly much like a lion that's just gorged himself on a gazelle and knows that you might be food, but he's just too damned full to bother taking you down.

Yes. At the beginning it was way worse, especially if a white person returning to a 'hub' like Memphis and then transiting elsewhere. On the outgoing it has seemed to have been toned down also, after all how much groping, intimidating, or just slack-jawed inanity can the workers be expected to maintain. Much easier to default to hitting on each other, making comments, etc. TSA should be its own thread. But the Air Traffic Control system can actually cause damage or chaos, or at least delays, since now "diversity" is more important that training, experience, or aptitude! Yes, there should be, or really not but accepted, make-work jobs for certain key constituencies, under certain administrations, but not in things like traffic control etc!

[SciFiAuthor]

Yes. At the beginning it was way worse, especially if a white person returning to a 'hub' like Memphis and then transiting elsewhere. On the outgoing it has seemed to have been toned down also, after all how much groping, intimidating, or just slack-jawed inanity can the workers be expected to maintain. Much easier to default to hitting on each other, making comments, etc. TSA should be its own thread. But the Air Traffic Control system can actually cause damage or chaos, or at least delays, since now "diversity" is more important that training, experience, or aptitude! Yes, there should be, or really not but accepted, make-work jobs for certain key constituencies, under certain administrations, but not in things like traffic control etc!

It's something you just don't want to screw up, for sure. Ability should be key, and ability has nothing to do with racial or sexual demographics. You're either good or you aren't and that should be the rock-solid rule. The best should get certain jobs because we can't afford less. The best can be anybody so we should really be focused on identifying and hiring the best instead of weird ham-fisted tactics of ensuring diversity through quota hiring practices.

[paladin1991]

I have to fly fairly frequently and I've noticed a trend towards apathy among airport security staff. When all this formed up after 9/11 they were too interested in security and went overboard but now they just sort of look at you half-heartedly much like a lion that's just gorged himself on a gazelle and knows that you might be food, but he's just too damned full to bother taking you down.

Noticed the same last March.  Flying domestically, though.  Not sure that would make a difference.  Lots of the rats running around, getting underfoot, "I'm going for coffee....anybody want?"  No shit, 12 of the rats standing around while two checked us through to where a last agent was xraying us and our gear. 

Flew fm John Wayne airport to Spokane via Seattle.  Will be doing the same in a couple of weeks.  Will post my impressions then.   

[albrecht]

Noticed the same last March.  Flying domestically, though.  Not sure that would make a difference.  Lots of the rats running around, getting underfoot, "I'm going for coffee....anybody want?"  No shit, 12 of the rats standing around while two checked us through to where a last agent was xraying us and our gear. 

Flew fm John Wayne airport to Spokane via Seattle.  Will be doing the same in a couple of weeks.  Will post my impressions then.

When in Spokane check out a gunshow. Quite eye-brow raising with some of the characters who come out of their mountain compounds to attend. I'm sure there will be much "jade helm" talk also. I think the TSA is just a "make work" program considering the caliber of people I've seen and the seeming either over-staffing or under-staffing; seemingly without any staffing based on flight schedules or popular flight dates.

[ItsOver]

My last friendly skies experience resulted in some TSA turkey confiscating my peanut butter.  I just hate the whole premise they're operating under and try to limit participating in it. 

[albrecht]

My last friendly skies experience resulted in some TSA turkey confiscating my peanut butter.  I just hate the whole premise they're operating under and try to limit participating in it.

So peanut butter was considered a "liquid" or "gel?" What idiots.
I used to love flying. Between the TSA, unkempt fellow passengers, the smaller seats, and lack of service (and nickel and diming you to death and not accepting cash for drinks,) price gouging in the concourse shops, and internet sites where in 1 sec the price or availability changes it is like they don't want you to use their services anymore! And now with ATC systems being based on diversity not training or skills. No thanks unless absolutely necessary.

[Yorkshire pud]

And now with ATC systems being based on diversity not training or skills. No thanks unless absolutely necessary.

Absolute total utter bollox.

No...don't answer..it is.

[ItsOver]

So peanut butter was considered a "liquid" or "gel?" What idiots.
I used to love flying. Between the TSA, unkempt fellow passengers, the smaller seats, and lack of service (and nickel and diming you to death and not accepting cash for drinks,) price gouging in the concourse shops, and internet sites where in 1 sec the price or availability changes it is like they don't want you to use their services anymore! And now with ATC systems being based on diversity not training or skills. No thanks unless absolutely necessary.

Yeah, a "gel."  I offered to eat it to show it was OK but no deal.  I thought they we're going to hall me off for insubordination or some such crap.  I just despise the whole Gestapo-type attitude of "show me your papers" and you're virtually presumed a criminal just for wanting to fly from point A to B.  They could at least be civil but I guess I'm asking too much for a bunch of minimally qualified bureaucrats.  It's like having to deal with the DMV every time you fly.

Yes, I loved flying, too, at one time.  Back when there were large seats, nice service, etc.  I remember when the meals weren't all that bad, "champagne flights,"  video games in small bars on wide-bodies, you name it.  Hell, I think I'd rather endure Amtrak now and I'll drive quite a distance just to avoid the hassle of flying.  It just raises my blood pressure.  I hate to even think about what the competence level of flight controllers, mechanics, and others have or is going to deteriorate to.

[paladin1991]

When in Spokane check out a gunshow. Quite eye-brow raising with some of the characters who come out of their mountain compounds to attend. I'm sure there will be much "jade helm" talk also. I think the TSA is just a "make work" program considering the caliber of people I've seen and the seeming either over-staffing or under-staffing; seemingly without any staffing based on flight schedules or popular flight dates.

might do that.  i will have to look that up 

[albrecht]

Absolute total utter bollox.

No...don't answer..it is.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/call7-investigators/faa-changes-hiring-practices-for-air-traffic-controllers-ignoring-qualified-students-and-vets

http://www.sgvtribune.com/general-news/20140417/air-traffic-students-at-mt-sac-in-walnut-tell-congresswoman-faa-diversity-rules-are-unfair

[albrecht]

might do that.  i will have to look that up

Stay at the Davenport if you can but if not at least go have a drink or meal there. Amazing place, restored to former glory. And eat at Frank's Diner in the old railroad car. Yum, hungry now.

[SciFiAuthor]

My last friendly skies experience resulted in some TSA turkey confiscating my peanut butter.  I just hate the whole premise they're operating under and try to limit participating in it.

It was just Jess. He changed jobs.

[paladin1991]

Stay at the Davenport if you can but if not at least go have a drink or meal there. Amazing place, restored to former glory. And eat at Frank's Diner in the old railroad car. Yum, hungry now.

Thanks for the heads up.  While we will be making runs into Spokane during the time we are up there, we'll be house hunting in Coeur d'Alene.  Possible job transfer coming up.  Mixing a vacation with expectations of a lifestyle change.

Also, if Stellar, haunts this thread, moving into the American Redoubt.    Nuff said.

[albrecht]

Thanks for the heads up.  While we will be making runs into Spokane during the time we are up there, we'll be house hunting in Coeur d'Alene.  Possible job transfer coming up.  Mixing a vacation with expectations of a lifestyle change.

Also, if Stellar, haunts this thread, moving into the American Redoubt.    Nuff said.

Nice. Beautiful area up there! Family had boat on Lake Pend Oreille and later on Coeur d'Alene many years ago and really nice area, can tool around for days stopping at various places etc. Fishing is good also. Good luck finding your Compound in the American Redoubt . Values have gone up since the Hollywood-types and people wanting to get away from things. For whatever reason a lot of cops from elsewhere move into that area to retire, I guess to get out of the cities and the scum. Mark Furman even had a radio show up there for some time.

[Ruteger]

GOOGLE white/discrimination lawsuits against the FAA. I work for the FAA. Whites need not apply. Rampant discrimination against Whites.

[albrecht]

GOOGLE white/discrimination lawsuits against the FAA. I work for the FAA. Whites need not apply. Rampant discrimination against Whites.

It doesn't surprise me one bit that the problem is larger than just the ATC. This odd obsession with diversity over quality or skills is just plain crazy. All the reverse discrimination, affirmative action, social promotion, grade inflation, and hiring quotas instead of trying to find people who can do the job. And especially when the job involves public safety, the military, etc. This problem has been around for some decades but clearly this character Obama and his mandates and appointees have ramped up the nonsense.

[Ruteger]

I work for the FAA. Google "FAA and white discrimination lawsuits." 'Nuff said.

More Asians and Blacks hired than Whites. Many of the Asian engineers can barely speak understandable english.

[WOTR]

While I don't think that anybody can defend the hiring policy, I believe it is disingenuous to link it to safety.  Regardless of where the candidate came from (the BQ method, or the college training method) they still have to be trained by the FAA to certain standards.  The linked to fox report states that those who completed the course are more likely to complete the FAA training and do so 5 weeks earlier than those hired off the street- but that does not necessarily translate to safety.  Discrimination in any form is a crock of shit- be it against women, men, white, black, gay or straight.  It should be that the best candidate is the one hired.

Anyhow, I pulled out the couple of relevant paragraphs that make me question if this is about safety or if it is strictly about discrimination.  (Again, I'm not defending the FAA's actions- only questioning the conclusion as presented.)

Applicants who pass the BQ and subsequent FAA hiring review are sent to the agency’s training academy in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma.  Course work there lasts 13 weeks but it takes another two to three years, during which trainees apprentice at air traffic control centers across the country, for an applicant to achieve Certified Professional Controller status or CPC.  It can cost as much as $420,000, on average, to fully train an air traffic controller and the FAA tries to select candidates based on the likelihood they will successfully complete their training.   But, CTI School advocates say the old program saved the FAA time and money.

Data from the FAA indicates CTI graduates complete their FAA academy course work five weeks sooner than off the street hires.  And, CTI advocates say CTI graduates are more likely to achieve certified professional controller (CPC) status which saves the FAA money since the CTI graduates complete the program at greater rate than applicants hired off the street.

[albrecht]

While I don't think that anybody can defend the hiring policy, I believe it is disingenuous to link it to safety.  Regardless of where the candidate came from (the BQ method, or the college training method) they still have to be trained by the FAA to certain standards.  The linked to fox report states that those who completed the course are more likely to complete the FAA training and do so 5 weeks earlier than those hired off the street- but that does not necessarily translate to safety.  Discrimination in any form is a crock of shit- be it against women, men, white, black, gay or straight.  It should be that the best candidate is the one hired.

Anyhow, I pulled out the couple of relevant paragraphs that make me question if this is about safety or if it is strictly about discrimination.  (Again, I'm not defending the FAA's actions- only questioning the conclusion as presented.)

Applicants who pass the BQ and subsequent FAA hiring review are sent to the agency’s training academy in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma.  Course work there lasts 13 weeks but it takes another two to three years, during which trainees apprentice at air traffic control centers across the country, for an applicant to achieve Certified Professional Controller status or CPC.  It can cost as much as $420,000, on average, to fully train an air traffic controller and the FAA tries to select candidates based on the likelihood they will successfully complete their training.   But, CTI School advocates say the old program saved the FAA time and money.

Data from the FAA indicates CTI graduates complete their FAA academy course work five weeks sooner than off the street hires.  And, CTI advocates say CTI graduates are more likely to achieve certified professional controller (CPC) status which saves the FAA money since the CTI graduates complete the program at greater rate than applicants hired off the street.

Assuming there is no more quotas, social promotion, grade adjustment/inflation, etc in that training, the discriminatory practices, and/or cheating, in the initial process might not effect safety in the ATC system. It would be interesting to see actual numbers between the system. With regard to $ and how many eventually fail or quit (in schools and some other places where affirmative action is used many drop out and so a new system messing with grading is sometimes used to keep that precious "diversity" which, after all, is "our strength.")

It seems an odd, non-mission related, idea, however, to START off the process of becoming a CPC with race, gender, sexuality (or whatever) as the first, or very important, criteria.

[Ruteger]

It's an utter travesty. If you are White, heterosexual, Bible-believing Middle-Class - Obama has his demonic sights set on you.

GOOGLE "faa white discrimination"

Don't believe me? See the search results. I DARE YOU.

[ItsOver]

It was just Jess. He changed jobs.

SciFi, where have you been?  Were they holding you hostage in the Politics thread?

The TSA dude was a really fat, pudgy guy.  I think his name was Tommy something.

[albrecht]

It's an utter FARCE!

GOOGLE "faa white discrimination"

Don't believe me? See the search results. I DARE YOU.

I did, though not google, and agree with you. This has been happening for decades in various institutions but seems to have ramped up under Obama and seems to have been expanded to include even more "minorities" no longer just gender or race based.

[ItsOver]

The Feds have been obsessed with social engineering for decades.  Their motto is "Diversity Uber Alles."  :

[Ruteger]

Contradiction coming. I work for the FAA. The (normal/low-level) people are wonderful, friendly, generous and hardworking (for the most part). I work with Black, Asians, and East Indians on a daily basis. Many are Christians. All are (of course there are always some bad apples) awesome to work with. Very polite environment.

It is the top-level people that are the problem. This fish rots from the neck down.

I did, though not google, and agree with you. This has been happening for decades in various institutions but seems to have ramped up under Obama and seems to have been expanded to include even more "minorities" no longer just gender or race based.

[albrecht]

Contradiction coming. I work for the FAA. The (normal/low-level) people are wonderful, friendly, generous and hardworking (for the most part). I work with Black, Asians, and East Indians on a daily basis. Many are Christians. All are (of course there are always some bad apples) awesome to work with. Very polite environment.

It is the top-level people that are the problem. This fish rots from the neck down.

Oh, I'm not casting aspersions on minorities or even on government workers. In fact my experiences, aside from TSA minions, is that most do a good job (from my limited experiences even with courts, building code offices, and DMV, places where many people complain about.) Generally I've found that if you treat the bureaucrat or worker with a smile etc you can get things done more quickly than bitching or escalating a situation that, often, they have limited control or can "screw you" by doing things "by the book." This applies to private companies also. Be nice to secretaries, paralegals, flght attendants, etc and you would be surprised how much easier things can be.

But I don't like illegal aliens and I don't like "diversity" for "diversity's sake", affirmative action, race based grade inflation or job performance inflation, quotas, special contracts for "minority owned" businesses (often a scam) etc.

[WOTR]

Assuming there is no more quotas, social promotion, grade adjustment/inflation, etc in that training, the discriminatory practices, and/or cheating, in the initial process might not effect safety in the ATC system...

I don't think that we really disagree.  There is enough damning information in that report that it could have done without the "scare tactic" of telling people that planes would soon fall out of the sky (or even that the air will be less safe...)

I do know that if I were caught providing answers for a test administered by a federal department that I would quickly loose my job.  There would be no questions asked.  Also, I would suspect that if somebody could prove that I cheated to get the job that it would quickly disappear.  The real question is why they are just forging ahead.

Another thing that was kind of funny in the article was when it said that 3000 people who were considered "well qualified" no longer had a leg up on the competition.  It also said that they were going to need 1000 air traffic controllers to replace those who were retiring.

The numbers make me question why the schools continued to pump out new "qualified" graduates when the limited market is already flooded with 3X the number of candidates required. (I think we can all assume that schools are happy to rake in $$$ to train people for occupations that are already saturated- can't really blame them for wanting to make a profit.)

Finally, I'm a little torn.  On one hand, I believe that all jobs should go to the best qualified.  On the other, we already know that is not always the case (hiring friends, people who you are "comfortable" with, discrimination going BOTH ways...)  On the other... It's a really long story- I don't think that we should hire a lazy drop-out... But if two candidates are pretty evenly matched, I think history has usually been that the white male has the upper hand (yes, I'm a white male.)  What do we do now? toss a coin or try to make up for the past?  Well, there is that powder keg.

To clarify- my uncle is having issues right now because his major customer has hired almost all east Indians to run the plant.  He has all but been told that there are no contracts available for him as he lacks pigment and a certain religion.  I don't want to see where it is a major disadvantage to be white any more than I think it should be a disadvantage to not be white...

[SciFiAuthor]

SciFi, where have you been?  Were they holding you hostage in the Politics thread?

The TSA dude was a really fat, pudgy guy.  I think his name was Tommy something.

Hi Over. I was just off on one of my adventures. I'd like to say I was off in the Belizean jungle searching for archeological artifacts evading Jorch's agents, but I was just really busy writing a book. Thankfully it worked out and now I can spend the summer staying up late and getting drunk listening to Art.