Vote or die

[NowhereInTime]

I vote. It is quite easy to do (I would argue too easy.) But you ignored my question. In your utopia which elections would be mandatory? Every election? At all levels?

You ignored my response:

When we finally arrive to a day where people aren't wasting the blood and treasure spilled to protect this most sacred right then, yes, it should be part of every American's civic duty to vote.  Period.

Why is this such a difficult concept to accept?  It's okay to send off armies to die for our "interests" but not to require, as a function of citizenship, people actually exercising their franchise?

Figures you cons are crapping yourselves silly.  Your day would finally be done.

[VtaGeezer]

I don't know if I accept "easily".  I would be surprised if many veterans (especially a majority) would be okay with people not bothering to vote.

This leaves out the heavy voter suppression activity (taking the Voting Rights act to court, poll taxes, voter id requirements, police presence at polling stations, lack of voting equipment in poorer areas) undertaken by the right wing elite for decades.

If they that fought hard against people exercising their rights, and have their knickers in a twist about this idea, it screams volumes about how they would view a future where all people voted.

I knew a few WWII vets who bragged that they never voted "because politicians are all alike".  This was usually followed by a complaint about how lousy the govt was run.

[albrecht]

You ignored my response:

I missed that response, I guess I was incredulous that someone would want to use the power of the Federal government to mandate that a person must vote in EVERY election? EVERYTHING mandated or you are punished? School boards? Every bond issue? City Councilmen? Special Elections? Referendums (what if I don't care one way or the other if people can get stoned or on the issue?) Every water district bond? HOA meetings? Mayoral elections? Judges? Run-Off elections in which your preferred candidate didn't get to the run-off? Party Caucuses? Primaries? Justice of the Peace? Sheriffs? etc etc.

In your utopia will you mandate that you must register for a party or only have open primaries? Or no parties (or more likely one Party if it is anything like the leftist's utopias of the past?) Would I be mandated to vote in every Parties' open primary (assuming you allow more than one party and demand open primaries?)

[NowhereInTime]

I missed that response, I guess I was incredulous that someone would want to use the power of the Federal government to mandate that a person must vote in EVERY election? EVERYTHING mandated or you are punished? School boards? Every bond issue? City Councilmen? Special Elections? Referendums (what if I don't care one way or the other if people can get stoned or on the issue?) Every water district bond? HOA meetings? Mayoral elections? Judges? Run-Off elections in which your preferred candidate didn't get to the run-off? Party Caucuses? Primaries? Justice of the Peace? Sheriffs? etc etc.

In your utopia will you mandate that you must register for a party or only have open primaries? Or no parties (or more likely one Party if it is anything like the leftist's utopias of the past?) Would I be mandated to vote in every Parties' open primary (assuming you allow more than one party and demand open primaries?)

It is extremely cynical of you to fight so vociferously for the right of people to do nothing.

It is also typical conservative rhetoric to go to hyperbolic sophistry to attempt to deflect a salient point. 

Parties today are optional.  Why would that change?  I don't see why Dems would be compelled to vote in the Repub. primary and vice versa.  Nor do I think unaffiliated voters would be compelled to vote in a party primary.  Ironically, there are many states right now trying to create open primaries.  I think this violates the parties' right of assembly.

While I would prefer no parties (like Jefferson, Adams, and Washington himself), I would also not deny people the right to organize.  Even further, I would drop any objection to Citizens United. Money can be speech so long as there is participation without restraint.

Why would you support limiting involvement in the political process?  Is it because you fear the consequence?

I find no persuasive argument against this point.  "I don't wanna?"  Unacceptable.

[VtaGeezer]

I missed that response, I guess I was incredulous that someone would want to use the power of the Federal government to mandate that a person must vote in EVERY election? EVERYTHING mandated or you are punished? School boards? Every bond issue? City Councilmen? Special Elections? Referendums (what if I don't care one way or the other if people can get stoned or on the issue?) Every water district bond? HOA meetings? Mayoral elections? Judges? Run-Off elections in which your preferred candidate didn't get to the run-off? Party Caucuses? Primaries? Justice of the Peace? Sheriffs? etc etc.

In your utopia will you mandate that you must register for a party or only have open primaries? Or no parties (or more likely one Party if it is anything like the leftist's utopias of the past?) Would I be mandated to vote in every Parties' open primary (assuming you allow more than one party and demand open primaries?)

In Autralia, its only mandatory that you show...not that you vote.  It's ironic that no one is upset that showing up for jury duty is mandatory.

[Quick Karl]

In Autralia, its only mandatory that you show...not that you vote.  It's ironic that no one is upset that showing up for jury duty is mandatory.

You can get out of jury duty if you can show good cause.

When I got called I said that I believed that anyone that got arrested was, in fact, guilty.

They've never called me again...

[VegasI15]

The choice to vote or not to vote is part of the democratic process. Saying "I don't want to vote," in part is one exercising their freedom of speech.   Forcing people to vote is not what the forefathers intended.  Nor do Americans in general like to be told what to do.   

So let's see, people are forced to have health insurance or will get fined.  And now they want people to be forced to vote also.  Doesn't sound like the America I grew up in...sad.

[Quick Karl]

We aren't in Kansas anymore and the fact that people in this country support the ridiculous despotic notion of mandatory voting is proof that we are intentionally being destroyed by our own "brothers."

[albrecht]

In Autralia, its only mandatory that you show...not that you vote.  It's ironic that no one is upset that showing up for jury duty is mandatory.

I am. There are some horrible jury decisions. Like voting, I prefer that only some people serve on juries. Must have at least a modicum of education or literacy and understand that you don't show in court in baggy jeans, a tshirt, or sweatpants. I also support "jury nullification" in some circumstance and also "run away" grand juries. Hence, I am usually eliminated in voire dire.

Though one case went on for almost a month! Over a simple (well, not so simple, but a civil case that got relatively boring) involving a business partnership and some land investment, golf course, etc etc. The experience made me think I chose the wrong career. It seemed nobody worked! No "over time" in court. Friday's off. Started at 9 (but usually 10am really) and then "over" by 5 each day! Better than banker hours.

[paladin1991]

People should then also have to pass a mandatory civics exam... before they cast their mandatory ballot.   

Oh man, no fair.

[paladin1991]

I knew a few WWII vets who bragged that they never voted "because politicians are all alike".  This was usually followed by a complaint about how lousy the govt was run.

Is that a fact?  I would have thought that the WWII vets would be some of the most aggressive voters. I am surprised. 

[paladin1991]

You can get out of jury duty if you can show good cause.

When I got called I said that I believed that anyone that got arrested was, in fact, guilty.

They've never called me again...

  I wonder why.  I thought you would have asked them to explain jury nullification.

"Jury nullification?  NEXT!"

[Eddie Coyle]

Hence, I am usually eliminated in voire dire.

    0 for 5 since first called in 1995. I think merely my address has literally been the cause of at least 3. Home by lunch time. Great system.

[pate]

Well, I just...

... I just ...


Rob Zombie - Dragula

[paladin1991]

Well, I just...

... I just ...


Rob Zombie - Dragula

this is not the thread for ART BELL bumper music.

[albrecht]

  I wonder why.  I thought you would have asked them to explain jury nullification.

"Jury nullification?  NEXT!"

Jury Nullification is one of the few remaining rights we have left and a long tradition in common law, though fought against by the system and the Bar. Helped get rid of the Fugitive Slave Act, capriciousness of royalty, Prohibition (of alcohol), etc. Should be used more often in many cases. Grand Juries also should use more of their inherent, traditional power (derided as "run away" grand juries by the establishment) to fix things.

[VtaGeezer]

Is that a fact?  I would have thought that the WWII vets would be some of the most aggressive voters. I am surprised.

Absolutely true. My father-in-law was career Navy and a UDT frogman in the Pacific in WWII, and he thought voting was a complete waste of time. A draftsman who worked for me in the 70s was a P-38 pilot in Europe; same attitude.  Just a couple examples.  Perhaps they didn't associate political acts like voting with patriotism. 

[VtaGeezer]

You can get out of jury duty if you can show good cause.

When I got called I said that I believed that anyone that got arrested was, in fact, guilty.

They've never called me again...

No one's saying it should be draconian, or that you'd forced to vote; just to show up or face a something like a parking fine. Enough to to motivate.  Your account of your jury "experience" sounds like more of your blowhard bullshit.

[yumyumtree]

Have any of you heard the sentiment on talk radio that people on any kind of government entitlements shouldn't vote?  I have been haring it more and more.  Michael Savage and Ben Shapiro have both been saying it.  I don't know if they include social security.  They are mostly thinking actual public assistance--food benefits and so on.

For years people have been saying that only people who own "property"(real estate, I assume?) should vote.  I never liked that one.  A lot of people have a variety of personal reasons for not owning real estate, and I think the mortgage crisis taught us that some people are better off renting--indefinitely.

What do I think?  Mandatory voting is horrible.  I also think it's a bit too easy to vote.  I am opposed to motor-voter, for example.  Make 'em work for it a little.  We read about people in third world countries who walk or hitch-hike for miles to cast their ballots.  We need a little more of that here.  I would also not be opposed to some sort of Micky Mouse test.

[yumyumtree]

I knew a few WWII vets who bragged that they never voted "because politicians are all alike".  This was usually followed by a complaint about how lousy the govt was run.

Yes, my mother was World War II generation and Kennedy was the last one she voted for.

[Gd5150]

So let's see, people are forced to have health insurance or will get fined.  And now they want people to be forced to vote also.  Doesn't sound like the America I grew up in...sad.

How will they know who to fine? According to Dems verifying Id is voter suppression. Haha!!!! Guess they'll just fine each district that doesn't get 100% turnout and everyone will split the fine. Neighbors will be turning each other in for not voting. You gotta love Democrat utopia.

It is surprising that this idea comes from Obama considering his home town of Chicago always gets over 105% turnout.

[NowhereInTime]

How will they know who to fine? According to Dems verifying Id is voter suppression. Haha!!!! Guess they'll just fine each district that doesn't get 100% turnout and everyone will split the fine. Neighbors will be turning each other in for not voting. You gotta love Democrat utopia.

It is surprising that this idea comes from Obama considering his home town of Chicago always gets over 105% turnout.

You do know every town in America has an updated voter registry list that the parties for GOTV?  At least 40 years now and in real time with today's tech.

[VtaGeezer]

How will they know who to fine? According to Dems verifying Id is voter suppression. Haha!!!! Guess they'll just fine each district that doesn't get 100% turnout and everyone will split the fine. Neighbors will be turning each other in for not voting. You gotta love Democrat utopia.

It is surprising that this idea comes from Obama considering his home town of Chicago always gets over 105% turnout.

Every place that I've lived, you have sign your precinct voter role every time you vote.  I guess people who don't actually vote don't think about that. 

[Juan]

What about the dead in Chicago, Toombs County, Georgia and other places they have made notable contributions to election results?

[Gd5150]

Every place that I've lived, you have sign your precinct voter role every time you vote.  I guess people who don't actually vote don't think about that.

Well that's brilliant. So what happens when someone goes to vote and whoops, someone already signed their name and voted for them. How do we know which is the real person, we can't check Id. What happens when someone who's dead votes. How do we know who signed their name, no ID? Great system!

[NowhereInTime]

Well that's brilliant. So what happens when someone goes to vote and whoops, someone already signed their name and voted for them. How do we know which is the real person, we can't check Id. What happens when someone who's dead votes. How do we know who signed their name, no ID? Great system!

Then make ID's convenient for people to get.  Don't require ID's then make people go 30 miles out of their way for a card. Don't charge them fees for these cards.

http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/measuring-the-effects-of-voter-identification-laws/?_r=1

We've had to use ID cards for years here, but they are still relatively easy to get your hands on.  Too many of the GOP states vote in these ID requirements then promptly slash the budgets for the responsible authority forcing office closure. 

I'm surprised that the "small government" "get government out of the way" types are the biggest proponents of these laws. 

You can't win stright up so you have to game the system.

[Zetaspeak]

I am not a fan mandatory voting, I just don't think you will get a quality result when somebody is forced to do something than somebody who wants to do something.

If you really want to encourage people to vote I would have something like ranked ballots. It would encourage more multi-party candidates (and even independents) to run without the concern of splitting the vote or having to vote for the "least worst"

[Quick Karl]

You can't win stright up so you have to game the system.

Explain November 2014.

[NowhereInTime]

Explain November 2014.

Voter turnout was the worst in 72 years.  Years of conservative cynicism and voter suppression have done their job; kind of makes the point for mandatory voting, doesn't it?

[albrecht]

Then make ID's convenient for people to get.  Don't require ID's then make people go 30 miles out of their way for a card. Don't charge them fees for these cards.

http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/measuring-the-effects-of-voter-identification-laws/?_r=1

We've had to use ID cards for years here, but they are still relatively easy to get your hands on.  Too many of the GOP states vote in these ID requirements then promptly slash the budgets for the responsible authority forcing office closure. 

I'm surprised that the "small government" "get government out of the way" types are the biggest proponents of these laws. 

You can't win stright up so you have to game the system.

Ids are very easy to get. An illegal can just go to their consulate and get a "Matrícula Consular de Alta Seguridad" very easily, I've heard you can even get more than one in a different name if so desired. And you aren't required to show proof of who you are when you get on. Once you have that you can open a bank account, utility bills, etc and in some states get a Driver's License. Then it might be possible with that documentation you can register to vote and vote showing your US State license- if you live in a state that asks. A citizen can easily go to the Post Office and get their passport if they don't have one, or goto the DMV and for a few bucks get an ID card (if they don't wish to get a driver's license.) You need to show your birth certificate, which, for most people except a certain President, is pretty easily done and prove State residency (or have someone else fill out an affidavit, a short form, saying that you are a state resident.) Easy.