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All of the net gains in in jobs since 2007 have gone to immigrants

Started by albrecht, December 19, 2014, 11:29:29 AM

albrecht

Take with a grain of salt since it is from a site that clearly is anti-illegal immigration and for reform of the Obama Doctrine of unfettered immigration and amnesty but still the numbers seem legit. I imagine much of these, aside from the H1 Visas, are not highly paid jobs but still....

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/395057/report-all-net-jobs-growth-2007-has-gone-immigrants-ryan-lovelace

http://c3.nrostatic.com/sites/default/files/camarota-employment-nov.pdf


Bart Ell

So what I get from this is that the less lazy bird gets the worm, oui?

I haven't wanted to spend the time going through the statistics, but one reason for this could be that baby boomers started retiring in 2011.  Native born Americans don't produce enough children to replace themselves, and certainly not to replace the baby boomers.  Therefore there are fewer working age native-born Americans now than there were when Obama was elected, and that gap is being made up by immigrants.

Also, immigrants are job providers.  Forty percent of Fortune 500 companies were started by immigrants or their children.  Americans like to study what.. law and communications and liberal arts?  While immigrants do the trades and dirty work that sustain society.  Maybe the problem is that immigrants just love America too much.

Quick Karl

Quote from: Georgie For President 2216 on December 19, 2014, 05:54:57 PM
I haven't wanted to spend the time going through the statistics, but one reason for this could be that baby boomers started retiring in 2011.  Native born Americans don't produce enough children to replace themselves, and certainly not to replace the baby boomers.  Therefore there are fewer working age native-born Americans now than there were when Obama was elected, and that gap is being made up by immigrants.

Also, immigrants are job providers.  Forty percent of Fortune 500 companies were started by immigrants or their children.  Americans like to study what.. law and communications and liberal arts?  While immigrants do the trades and dirty work that sustain society.  Maybe the problem is that immigrants just love America too much.

Obviously, you already "got yours", huh? Some kind of government/tax-payer subsidized pension???

Quote from: Quick Karl on December 19, 2014, 06:00:47 PM
Obviously, you already "got yours", huh? Some kind of government/tax-payer subsidized pension???

I'm poorer than a banshee and I don't accept government assistance.

Kelt

Quote from: albrecht on December 19, 2014, 11:29:29 AM
Take with a grain of salt since it is from a site that clearly is anti-illegal immigration and for reform of the Obama Doctrine of unfettered immigration and amnesty but still the numbers seem legit. I imagine much of these, aside from the H1 Visas, are not highly paid jobs but still....

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/395057/report-all-net-jobs-growth-2007-has-gone-immigrants-ryan-lovelace

http://c3.nrostatic.com/sites/default/files/camarota-employment-nov.pdf


Is it possible that immigrants, the legal sort as opposed to the illegal fence-hoppers , generally have an education and are sponsored by companies who are looking for a particular skill set?


I know when I applied for work in the U.S. I had to meet very specific criteria, otherwise the vacancy would have automatically gone to an American citizen.  To my mind that's perfectly fair. 


There's a large contingent of Americans (Texans primarily) who work in my city of origin, those immigrant workers having broad experience in the fields of oil and suppressed homosexuality. I've nothing against cross-border employment, though, since I did it myself for a number of years before making the leap into full American Citizenship. Now I sit on my lawn on a weekend, shotgun resting on my lap, muttering in my adopted accent (Southern), muttering about how Obammer, the niggras, and the Mexicans is killing the cunnry with Comnism.















Gd5150

Immigrants or illegals?


Immigrants make up the entire US aside from Native Americans and those who were forced to come here via slavery.


Most immigrants are successful because they come from other countries where education is made a high priority in society. By the time they get to the US, their 3rd grade education is equivalent to a US high school education.


Unfortunately in the US there is little value placed on education. Societal value is placed on fame and government value is placed on unions. Neither has anything to do with actual education.

Quote from: Georgie For President 2216 on December 19, 2014, 05:54:57 PM
... one reason for this could be that baby boomers started retiring in 2011.  Native born Americans don't produce enough children to replace themselves, and certainly not to replace the baby boomers.  Therefore there are fewer working age native-born Americans now than there were when Obama was elected, and that gap is being made up by immigrants...

They will work cheaper


Quote from: Gd5150 on December 19, 2014, 06:18:40 PM
... Immigrants make up the entire US aside from Native Americans and those who were forced to come here via slavery...

I don't consider myself an immigrant.  I have no 'homeland' to return to.  Of course if I were paid the full value of my ancestors contributions in building this nation, I think I could find somewhere nice to live

Quick Karl

Quote from: Georgie For President 2216 on December 19, 2014, 06:04:47 PM
I'm poorer than a banshee and I don't accept government assistance.

Hillary says the same thing.  ;D

Anyone that supports handing the privileges American Citizens should enjoy, to people that broke the law to get here, and continue to break the law working here, is guilty of throwing their fellow American Citizen under a bus.

Its just that simple.

albrecht

Quote from: Kelt on December 19, 2014, 06:17:04 PM

Is it possible that immigrants, the legal sort as opposed to the illegal fence-hoppers , generally have an education and are sponsored by companies who are looking for a particular skill set?


I know when I applied for work in the U.S. I had to meet very specific criteria, otherwise the vacancy would have automatically gone to an American citizen.  To my mind that's perfectly fair. 


There's a large contingent of Americans (Texans primarily) who work in my city of origin, those immigrant workers having broad experience in the fields of oil and suppressed homosexuality. I've nothing against cross-border employment, though, since I did it myself for a number of years before making the leap into full American Citizenship. Now I sit on my lawn on a weekend, shotgun resting on my lap, muttering in my adopted accent (Southern), muttering about how Obammer, the niggras, and the Mexicans is killing the cunnry with Comnism.
Again this weird deal with homosexuality? I thought that was a great thing, indeed a virtue with the leftist types? Anyway, you make a valid point. Indeed most countries, except the USA due to an open-border, try to have standards for immigration based on expertise, education, wealth or some criteria that will help the country. And many, if not most, also have concern for their own culture and country so base it, like the USA used to decades ago, on limits from certain areas. Heck, some countries don't even allow travel IN the country freely (usually more leftist-bent countries.) Even for humanitarian grounds some basics must be adhered to: like learn the language, work, etc are usually required. Not here. You can vote in many, many languages even. And apply for the dole and programs in other languages. Aside from the H1B Visas the USA has abandoned that sane criteria of taking skilled or decent people (or, at least, non-criminal.) And Obama has signaled "come all" no matter how criminal, diseased, or uneducated.

Kelt

All I know is that when I applied for a work visa to come to the United States I was rejected not because I wasn't educated but because I was European. The emphasis at the time was on preferring African applicants, apparently, meaning the official preference was ethnicity rather than education. 


Upon finding a sponsor within the United States, a company willing to hire me even before I set foot in the US, said company then ran into a similar roadblock regarding ethnicity. 


Now, nationality as a bias I could understand if not agree with. Give an American the job (assuming a domestic applicant of equal skill), before a foreign applicant seems a little insular but whatever. But prohibition based upon skin color seemed, I don't know, racist or somesuch.


Anyway, it all worked out in the end, and I guess what I'm saying is that I see a cowboy and I automatically think 'homosexual'.  I'm not saying anything's wrong with that, I'm just saying that Texans in general need to be more open about their proclivities, if you know what I mean.



Bart Ell

Quote from: Kelt on December 19, 2014, 06:17:04 PM
Is it possible that immigrants, the legal sort as opposed to the illegal fence-hoppers , generally have an education and are sponsored by companies who are looking for a particular skill set?

I got in with an I-20 and full scholarship to Cal State just because I could hit a ball 450 feet from the left side of the plate... they somehow managed to overlook the crappy arm and suspect fielding.

albrecht

Quote from: Kelt on December 19, 2014, 09:54:04 PM
All I know is that when I applied for a work visa to come to the United States I was rejected not because I wasn't educated but because I was European. The emphasis at the time was on preferring African applicants, apparently, meaning the official preference was ethnicity rather than education. 


Upon finding a sponsor within the United States, a company willing to hire me even before I set foot in the US, said company then ran into a similar roadblock regarding ethnicity. 


Now, nationality as a bias I could understand if not agree with. Give an American the job (assuming a domestic applicant of equal skill), before a foreign applicant seems a little insular but whatever. But prohibition based upon skin color seemed, I don't know, racist or somesuch.


Anyway, it all worked out in the end, and I guess what I'm saying is that I see a cowboy and I automatically think 'homosexual'.  I'm not saying anything's wrong with that, I'm just saying that Texans in general need to be more open about their proclivities, if you know what I mean.
You are right. That is my main complaint. The USA since a certain "reform" bill in the 60's abandoned rational immigration policy. So, as you say, we would rather take some uneducated immigrant from a foreign society or culture than a qualified one who, unfortunately for them, comes from a European country. Versus for an American, or anyone, coming to a European country, to work (UK is oddly harder than most EU) treated far better. Though we, unlike our President, still needs to abide by the law and show an apostilled certificate of birth, etc.

But I must admit some internal laughter...for the "inclusive" and "socialist"  and "non-racist" countries I've been in. The foreign police in Holland, for example, were hilarious. I didn't speak a word of Dutch but got my permits, visas, etc etc (crazy society- you even need to register where you live) but the swarthy, malcontent Moroccan family next to me in line I heard the officers refusing to acknowledge his pidgin Dutch and sent them away (likely back to his his state-issued refugee housing and dole though.) Good show! The Germans? Seen the border police twice right in front of me kicking an African's and also a Turk's ass. Once on the train and once on the U-Bahn station after fleeing (granted I also saw an ass-kicking of a skinhead but that was outside an Oktoberfest tent and by local police.) Contrary to media reports I never have seen a black beat up here (in person. Only on tv.) Normal police in Holland, conversely, were the BEST I've ever seen. Crazy good. No beating people, I saw a guy, high on something, skip out of a tab and the bartender head off after him and police not only stop a beating but counseled the guy. Talked him down his trip, a bit. Found his friends and let them pay off the tab and let them take his blubbering, stoned-out soul home to the hostel or hotel. If that were Texas, or England, or anywhere he would've been a punching bag. In Scotland he would been shivved, head-butted, and robbed before the police got there to rough him up.

But every-time to the UK I got harassed (not really) but I did get the passport stamp "No work or recourse to public funds" hahaha. That is a bit insulting.  Wish we could stamp our immigrants with that.

Kelt

I've traveled/worked in a number of countries from First through to Third World, and by FAR the worst has been the Russians.


Upon my arrival in Moscow we shuffled into the grey painted customs/immigration area. The decor seemed to suck the light out of the room, so it had the effect of making it even more gloomy than it potentially intended to be. Myself and no other English-speaking individuals, the signs all in cyrillic, and since I had only started learning Russian the week prior to my arrival it was all Greek to me. We lined up for what seemed forever in a queue that didn't seem to move at all.  Eventually I noticed that the diplomatic channel over to the left was entirely empty, so I grabbed my belongings and steamed over to the much nicer, much emptier diplomatic channel like any normal person would. 


I clearly wasn't a diplomat, so the chick behind the glass wanted nothing to do with me. Being an entitled Westerner I assured her that I was British and that it was only right and proper that I be allowed in.  This was my first real glimpse of the Russian hierarchy, which is a system based entirely around the size of hat worn by each official.  The larger the hat the more important the Russian. And I'm not kidding. The supervisor who was seemingly not used to getting shit from civilians decided to just let me through rather than risk the wrath of a bigger hat than his own admittedly sizable hat.


I looked back to see the people I'd left in the original line still standing in exactly the same spot they'd been in half an hour earlier.  And that's almost exactly how shit worked.  You either cajoled or bribed a series of ever-increasing hat sizes if you wanted anything done. I've spent time in Africa, and the fucking Africans were less prone to bribery than the Russians.  I think the entire Russian economy is essentially bribery-based.


Anyway, I had to pass through a number of airports as I traveled around Russia, and I swear to god it's like being back in the age of the Boyars as soon as you step out of any major Russian metropolis. 


True story, there was a dead dog in the bathrooms at Volgograd 'airport'.. which is not so much an airport as an abandoned warehouse with a piece of flat waste ground out back, just big enough to land passengers in a converted Tupolev bomber.


Anyway, I'm not sure where I'm going with this, except that as bad as some countries can be, Russia is the frikken worst when it comes to immigration and residency. And when you beat Africa into second place you know you're a bona fide shithole. 


Take a bow, Russia.




albrecht

Quote from: Kelt on December 19, 2014, 10:54:40 PM
I've traveled/worked in a number of countries from First through to Third World, and by FAR the worst has been the Russians.


Upon my arrival in Moscow we shuffled into the grey painted customs/immigration area. The decor seemed to suck the light out of the room, so it had the effect of making it even more gloomy than it potentially intended to be. Myself and no other English-speaking individuals, the signs all in cyrillic, and since I had only started learning Russian the week prior to my arrival it was all Greek to me. We lined up for what seemed forever in a queue that didn't seem to move at all.  Eventually I noticed that the diplomatic channel over to the left was entirely empty, so I grabbed my belongings and steamed over to the much nicer, much emptier diplomatic channel like any normal person would. 


I clearly wasn't a diplomat, so the chick behind the glass wanted nothing to do with me. Being an entitled Westerner I assured her that I was British and that it was only right and proper that I be allowed in.  This was my first real glimpse of the Russian hierarchy, which is a system based entirely around the size of hat worn by each official.  The larger the hat the more important the Russian. And I'm not kidding. The supervisor who was seemingly not used to getting shit from civilians decided to just let me through rather than risk the wrath of a bigger hat than his own admittedly sizable hat.


I looked back to see the people I'd left in the original line still standing in exactly the same spot they'd been in half an hour earlier.  And that's almost exactly how shit worked.  You either cajoled or bribed a series of ever-increasing hat sizes if you wanted anything done. I've spent time in Africa, and the fucking Africans were less prone to bribery than the Russians.  I think the entire Russian economy is essentially bribery-based.


Anyway, I had to pass through a number of airports as I traveled around Russia, and I swear to god it's like being back in the age of the Boyars as soon as you step out of any major Russian metropolis. 


True story, there was a dead dog in the bathrooms at Volgograd 'airport'.. which is not so much an airport as an abandoned warehouse with a piece of flat waste ground out back, just big enough to land passengers in a converted Tupolev bomber.


Anyway, I'm not sure where I'm going with this, except that as bad as some countries can be, Russia is the frikken worst when it comes to immigration and residency. And when you beat Africa into second place you know you're a bona fide shithole. 


Take a bow, Russia.
Yep. 100%. Unless you arrive, met, with "help" if you have certain business interests. Then Russian can be fine. (sorta). Still creepy and very suspect. Even back in the "good old days" of late nineties and American money flowing there like gold (and our chickens). Goodness knows what is is now with the consolidation and Ukraine stuff. Looks like Russkies gonna gain outta Exxon's deal and they will be screwed but who knows? Lots of machinations going on.
btw: many countries are totally, sorta, screwed up, on account of Communism and the corruption. Basically in some places you couldn't lose your job, but, then again, you couldn't really move up or on. So you just friggin drank, smoked, and did what you want. I recall some place, I can't remember, in Hungary? Bulgaria? I went to too to a factory and it was like "we mine this hill here, to burn this stuff here" but nothing was really produced. Even AFTER we could run factories there the attitude was one of "just my job" etc. No ambition. Smoke, come in hung over, drink at breaks, etc.

Kelt

Oh, hell yeah.  The Russkies were the most unmotivated, do-the-bare-minimum, not-my-job, lack-of-initiative guys I've worked with.  They literally asked for orders or direction every step of the way. The legacy of a centralised economy, it has to be. It's not that they weren't smart, they were some genuinely smart boys and girls, they just didn't have the go-gettem attitude that the Capitalist economies encourage.  I don't know if they're still like that, but I remember wondering how people even function without some degree of proactiveness. 


Oddly, the Romanian chick was the exact opposite.  I could barely keep up with her. So apparently Communism doesn't totally crush the human spirit. It has a good go at it, though.  I was there after the wall came down, obviously, so I can't even imagine what a miserable, downtrodden, godforsaken hellhole it was prior to Perestroika, and Glasnost, and all the other good stuff of the 90s.


For someone like myself, who has an almost pathological hatred of authority, the Russia of the 90s/00s was bad enough... under totalitarianism I think I'd have gone on a killing spree until someone stopped me. 


Read Mig Pilot: The final Flight of Lt. Belenko.  Out of all the books I've read regarding the Soviet Union, his is the most enlightening.

paladin1991

Quote from: Ƭ̵̬̊ on December 19, 2014, 10:16:32 PM
I got in with an I-20 and full scholarship to Cal State just because I could hit a ball 450 feet from the left side of the plate... they somehow managed to overlook the crappy arm and suspect fielding.
So.  You admit it.  You stole my scholarship. 

You bastard.


paladin1991

Quote from: albrecht on December 19, 2014, 10:20:34 PM


But every-time to the UK I got harassed (not really) but I did get the passport stamp "No work or recourse to public funds" hahaha. That is a bit insulting.  Wish we could stamp our immigrants with that.
Pompous bastards.  Should pay every US citizen who visits a reparation for our coming to save their asses twice in one century.  Next time the krauts decide to take an extended Euro tour, we might not come.
Eh, Herr Albrecht?  *nudge, nudge, wink, wink*   

albrecht

Quote from: Kelt on December 19, 2014, 11:24:35 PM
Oh, hell yeah.  The Russkies were the most unmotivated, do-the-bare-minimum, not-my-job, lack-of-initiative guys I've worked with.  They literally asked for orders or direction every step of the way. The legacy of a centralised economy, it has to be. It's not that they weren't smart, they were some genuinely smart boys and girls, they just didn't have the go-gettem attitude that the Capitalist economies encourage.  I don't know if they're still like that, but I remember wondering how people even function without some degree of proactiveness. 


Oddly, the Romanian chick was the exact opposite.  I could barely keep up with her. So apparently Communism doesn't totally crush the human spirit. It has a good go at it, though.  I was there after the wall came down, obviously, so I can't even imagine what a miserable, downtrodden, godforsaken hellhole it was prior to Perestroika, and Glasnost, and all the other good stuff of the 90s.


For someone like myself, who has an almost pathological hatred of authority, the Russia of the 90s/00s was bad enough... under totalitarianism I think I'd have gone on a killing spree until someone stopped me. 


Read Mig Pilot: The final Flight of Lt. Belenko.  Out of all the books I've read regarding the Soviet Union, his is the most enlightening.
Agree totally. Though, I must admit, Russiian ladies who got out were/are good staff, within reason.  Work hard but have to monitor. Crazy sorta. Used to "dressing hot" and the Russian-way etc but often have real education and degrees but working staff jobs due to immigrant status and language issues but learn quick. Get on their good side and don't treat them as normally used too and they will be amazingly good for business and also tell you what others, even in house, are going on. Russians grew up on politics and internal goings-on and have a remarkable ability. (Bad side, they also believe conspiracy theories even more than Alex Jones...but where they were from the theories were real.)

Quote from: Quick Karl on December 19, 2014, 09:19:26 PM
Hillary says the same thing.  ;D

Anyone that supports handing the privileges American Citizens should enjoy, to people that broke the law to get here, and continue to break the law working here, is guilty of throwing their fellow American Citizen under a bus.

Its just that simple.

I wasn't talking about illegals or supporting illegal immigration.  I was only pointing out that a simple analysis using one or two carefully chosen statistic doesn't provide a good read on the situation.  I don't believe the net effect of immigrants is to steal American jobs.  I believe they support the economy which brings more wealth and more job opportunities to Americans.  The problem I see with this conservative math is that it tries to apply simple grade school addition to problems requiring analysis by partial differential equations (figuratively in this case but often literally).

albrecht

Quote from: Georgie For President 2216 on December 20, 2014, 07:48:19 PM
I wasn't talking about illegals or supporting illegal immigration.  I was only pointing out that a simple analysis using one or two carefully chosen statistic doesn't provide a good read on the situation.  I don't believe the net effect of immigrants is to steal American jobs.  I believe they support the economy which brings more wealth and more job opportunities to Americans.  The problem I see with this conservative math is that it tries to apply simple grade school addition to problems requiring analysis by partial differential equations (figuratively in this case but often literally).
IF, a big IF, the immigration is controlled, it certainly is a net gain, at least over a long term. At least historically speaking. Even the Irish and Italians with their initial violence, crime, and disease ended up being, for the most part, a gain to the society as a whole. The blacks, Obama withstanding, or, maybe, in the debit side also, are more arguably a small net loss though it was not their fault (of course many a white slave, sorry, indentured servant, criminal, or shanghaied sailor) also came here without volition. Certainly the Orientals have been a gain and relatively quickly. And the Jews as well, likely in money-terms the best gain. If it is all about money, however, one wonders why the Obama Doctrine or this idea that ALL immigration is good: no matter if illegal or legal or no matter if educated, wealthy, healthy, etc? Also the country and economy has changed. No longer is there, due to technology and government regulation, open lands where some settler immigrants can go and farm and keep to themselves. Instead, for more than a century at least, they tend to go to cities and ghettoize themselves. And how in the world importing uneducated and illiterate (even in their own native language often) people and children will help our failing schools or inserting more ethnic, racial, and gang divisions into our society and schools will help crime I don't know. But Obama says it will. Unless he has a much different goal, in which case, it makes perfect sense.

albrecht

http://cis.org/for-every-new-job-two-new-immigrants
For Every New Job, Two New Immigrants:
Since 2000: 9.3 million new jobs, 18 million new immigrantsGovernment data collected in December 2014 show 18 million immigrants (legal and illegal) living in the United States who arrived in January 2000 or later. But only 9.3 million jobs were added over this time period. In addition, the native-born population 16 and older grew by 25.2 million.

ps: Although this illegal was caught I imagine his choice of dress might gain him instant "DREAMER" or at least fast-track immigration hearing. Or, more likely, the usual catch-and-release policy.
http://www.breitbart.com/california/2015/02/11/photo-illegal-alien-caught-at-border-wearing-obama-shirt/


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