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Cuba

Started by yumyumtree, December 18, 2014, 07:37:25 PM

Quote from: NowhereInTime on December 19, 2014, 06:18:03 PM
This is so different from him calling us a colonizer.  This is a specious derivation and intentionally skewed interpretation of his remarks which, BTW, were a diplomatic conveyance to the OAS and the Cuban people, not a rebuke of the American people.

Quote from: NowhereInTime on December 19, 2014, 07:01:14 PM
No, because so many other Presidents (other than Carter) lacked integrity....


First off, I don't think the OAS or the Cuban people think we oppressed Cuba - as colonialists or otherwise.  They may have disagreed with our Cuban policy, but the OAS has been known to call on us to help them confront Cuban military threats (Grenada), and individual countries in the organization have as well.

As far as the Cuban people wanting us to perform a 'diplomatic conveyance' towards the Castro's, please.  I really don't get this love affair the Left has for Marxist thug dictators, and the absence of any compassion at all for their citizens - who are captive victims

Second, it wouldn't be the American people as colonizers, it would be the American government


Regarding your two posts above, in one it appears that you think Obama didn't really mean to compare the US to Communist Cuba and just did it as a diplomatic nicety (even though he inserted it in his comments twice to make sure everyone got the point), but in the other post you indicate it was an accurate comment that took 'integrity' to say. 

Can you clarify which it is?

b_dubb

Hotel and resort developers everywhere are rushing to grab a foothold in Cuba.  I'd like to visit just so I can see a landscape that isn't littered with billboards and other forms of advertising.

albrecht

Quote from: b_dubb on December 19, 2014, 08:50:03 PM
Hotel and resort developers everywhere are rushing to grab a foothold in Cuba.  I'd like to visit just so I can see a landscape that isn't littered with billboards and other forms of advertising.
And the old cars. Apparently the Cubans, maybe not so much in recent decade, were really adept at keeping American classic cars alive and running (due to necessity). Not collector material but, literally, daily drivers. No Mecum Auctions but probably some cool stuff.

paladin1991

Somebody say "Seegars?"

albrecht

Quote from: paladin1991 on December 19, 2014, 10:27:18 PM
Somebody say "Seegars?"
Yes, but already easy to come by and, from what I hear, in recent years over produced, bad rolling, and bad agricultural practices. Same seed strains grown in "legal" countries beats the Cubans now. But who knows? Matter of taste like anything. Then, again, it is all in the name and marketing for most. So far, the Obama Capitulation does not allow Cuban Cigars any more than previous rules.

Disgusting. Absolutely disgusting. Obama has, once again, shown his true colors by cozying up to the mass murdering, thuggish Castros, just when we had them on their knees with the precipitous decline in oil prices.

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: Kelt on December 18, 2014, 08:24:58 PM

I've been keen on a trip to China for a while now, but a friend of mine was there  for a few months for GM and she really didn't care for the place.  Okay if you have cash, but way too much riffraff for it to be enjoyable, apparently :)


In the future I'll stick to First World destinations and leave the emerging economies to the off-roaders.


Different kettle of fish in Tricky Dicky's day, though. Everyone in grey PJs, riding clapped out bicycles, and no internet access for all the tea in, well, China.




I went to Cuba in 2005 for two weeks holiday. Lovely people really. Dirt poor but friendly, music everywhere in Havana; every street the bars have music playing. Food nearly adequate, sea food is very nice. Just be careful of the undertow off the beach at Varadero; The French Canadians were pretty rude as were the Russians on holls too. Got pally with a family from Vancouver; The dad was built like a redwood and just as wide, lovely bloke though, never let my glass go dry!

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: FightTheFuture on December 20, 2014, 12:26:44 PM
Disgusting. Absolutely disgusting. Obama has, once again, shown his true colors by cozying up to the mass murdering, thuggish Castros, just when we had them on their knees with the precipitous decline in oil prices.




You're no fan of Bush Jnr then? Or is the mass murder in Iraq and Afghanistan only collateral damage?

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: albrecht on December 19, 2014, 08:53:51 PM
And the old cars. Apparently the Cubans, maybe not so much in recent decade, were really adept at keeping American classic cars alive and running (due to necessity). Not collector material but, literally, daily drivers. No Mecum Auctions but probably some cool stuff.




Yes, loads of old Plymouths, Buiks, Caddies...Some are nearly road worthy!  ;D   Or you could try a six door Lada taxi..(I really wouldn't!)

Quote from: Yorkshire pud on December 20, 2014, 12:36:49 PM



You're no fan of Bush Jnr then? Or is the mass murder in Iraq and Afghanistan only collateral damage?




Moral equivalence is a fool`s errand. Fool.

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: FightTheFuture on December 20, 2014, 12:45:46 PM



Moral equivalence is a fool`s errand. Fool.


If you're amoral, yes. But being a good Christian you'll not fall into that dichotomy will you?

albrecht

Quote from: Yorkshire pud on December 20, 2014, 12:38:29 PM



Yes, loads of old Plymouths, Buiks, Caddies...Some are nearly road worthy!  ;D   Or you could try a six door Lada taxi..(I really wouldn't!)
No Ladas for me, might as well buy a Yugo (if any are still around. I don't know if those lasted even a few months.) I hope Obama doesn't do his "cash for clunkers" program there. I hate to see old cars go- even when they aren't in optimal condition.

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: albrecht on December 20, 2014, 01:10:25 PM
No Ladas for me, might as well buy a Yugo (if any are still around. I don't know if those lasted even a few months.) I hope Obama doesn't do his "cash for clunkers" program there. I hate to see old cars go- even when they aren't in optimal condition.




Many years ago, the husband of the friend of my girlfriend at the time bought a Yugo and thought he'd got a bargain new car for the price. In less than two years he couldn't give the pile of junk away. Horrible pale yellow I remember that faded to bleached vomit colour.

Quote from: Yorkshire pud on December 20, 2014, 12:47:51 PM

If you're amoral, yes. But being a good Christian you'll not fall into that dichotomy will you?




*Addendum to previous post*




You`re also an insipid lout, void of the slightest whiff of an original thought. A feckless little man that slimes around this forum, looking for any opportunity to interject your banal, humorless opinions, which typically, are dripping in animus for "the colonies", in some peculiar effort to appear witty. That`s a tough road to hoe when you`re not witty, or bright. Get a new shtick.


I swear, I can`t name two people on this forum that disgust me to my core. But I can name one. That would be you.

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: FightTheFuture on December 20, 2014, 02:04:21 PM



*Addendum to previous post*




You`re also an insipid lout, void of the slightest whiff of an original thought. A feckless little man that slimes around this forum, looking for any opportunity to interject your banal, humorless opinions, which typically, are dripping in animus for "the colonies", in some peculiar effort to appear witty. That`s a tough road to hoe when you`re not witty, or bright. Get a new shtick.


I swear, I can`t name two people on this forum that disgust me to my core. But I can name one. That would be you.




The above fills me with joy.  Other than that, why do you think I care what your opinion of me is? You could always block me though... But don't.  ;D ;D

NowhereInTime

Quote from: Paper*Boy on December 19, 2014, 08:06:33 PM

First off, I don't think the OAS or the Cuban people think we oppressed Cuba - as colonialists or otherwise.  They may have disagreed with our Cuban policy, but the OAS has been known to call on us to help them confront Cuban military threats (Grenada), and individual countries in the organization have as well.


Maybe under duress, but willingly? No:


http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/19/world/americas/a-brave-move-by-obama-removes-a-wedge-in-relations-with-latin-america.html?_r=0


QuoteAs far as the Cuban people wanting us to perform a 'diplomatic conveyance' towards the Castro's, please.  I really don't get this love affair the Left has for Marxist thug dictators, and the absence of any compassion at all for their citizens - who are captive victims


This is really one of your most glaring shortcomings; you see American foreign policy through a very 1950's lens.  It screams "hegemony: my way or the highway" which really never works.  The left doesn't have a "love affair" with Castro, we just can't understand the right's perverse obsession with him and your desire to cause furthering suffering for the Cuban people. 
It stems from wanting revenge for losing so many business interests there, but enough is enough.

QuoteSecond, it wouldn't be the American people as colonizers, it would be the American government


I'm sorry, now Juan's on this queue? Besides, it's mostly conservative ballgrabbers trying to show off how tough they are by pushing Cuba around.


QuoteRegarding your two posts above, in one it appears that you think Obama didn't really mean to compare the US to Communist Cuba and just did it as a diplomatic nicety (even though he inserted it in his comments twice to make sure everyone got the point), but in the other post you indicate it was an accurate comment that took 'integrity' to say.


Nice try at the Bill Bennett, as you are comparing apples to Apple computers.  This entire point stems from your premise that Obama is a marxist who hates America.  He used language to convey the possibility that there was fault on both sides in addressing the last 60 years, which takes personal integrity (especially with the barrage of bloviation Rubio et al are launching at him) and that there was reachable ground between the two countries.
Part of the never-ending problem here (and with Israel/Palestine) is that there is a hard line faction that demands preconditions and statements of fault before negotiation can even occur.  How can a pathway to peace ever be traveled if one side is insisting on concessions before talks even begin?


QuoteCan you clarify which it is?


Sure.  Barack Obama is the duly elected President of the United States and, as such, can and will use all means at his disposal to achieve foreign policy goals.   

Quote from: Paper*Boy on December 19, 2014, 08:06:33 PM

First off, I don't think the OAS or the Cuban people think we oppressed Cuba - as colonialists or otherwise.  They may have disagreed with our Cuban policy, but the OAS has been known to call on us to help them confront Cuban military threats (Grenada), and individual countries in the organization have as well.

The only reason the U.S. invaded Grenada was to distract attention from the bombing of the Marine barracks in Beirut that resulted in the deaths of 241 U.S. military personnel who Reagan had sent there as "peacekeepers" without giving them a clearly defined mission.  It was not a coincidence that it took place two days later, nor did the OAS call for it.  The leaders of a few tiny Caribbean nations were pressured into requesting the invasion in much the same way much of the Iraq invasion's "Coalition of the Willing" was cobbled together by the Bush administration through a combination of brow beating and bribery, such as admission to NATO.  The OAS was sharply divided over Grenada, and Margaret Thatcher was furious at Reagan for invading a Commonwealth country without notifying her.  Also, since there was no time to plan the invasion, a lot of the operation wound up being a big mess, but don't take my word for it.  General Norman Schwarzkopf, who was one of the commanders, was especially harsh in his assessment of the action.

QuoteI really don't get this love affair the Left has for Marxist thug dictators, and the absence of any compassion at all for their citizens - who are captive victims

That's because it doesn't exist.  When you say the "Left" you're talking about maybe a couple of dozen of aged, delusional, bitter, leftover sixties revolutionaries.  Most people you consider to be leftists really don't feel that way.  Honest. 

albrecht

Quote from: Robert Ghostwolf's Ghost on December 20, 2014, 07:37:42 PM


That's because it doesn't exist.  When you say the "Left" you're talking about maybe a couple of dozen of aged, delusional, bitter, leftover sixties revolutionaries.  Most people you consider to be leftists really don't feel that way.  Honest.
FARC, Popular Front for the Progress and Change (Marxist-Leninist-Obama), the breakaway faction of the PFPC (Fabian-Billary),(Maoist faction of the PFPC is, currently, weaving-baskets and infighting)  ;) CPNâ€"UML, Greece, Spain, and various countries have TONS of parties, some of which are "direct action" (the rightwing reactionaries call them terrorists, Obama might say "organizers") most of which are shaggy-bearded intellectuals cutting some tail and posting manifestos. I ignore the countries with, at least in name, communist, governments in power. Or, like, ours where the leader is a fellow-traveler but doesn't profess, yet, allegiance to any of the main movements (I suspect a Tito type here.) I still wonder where this guy stands. He likes divisiveness; so where does he stand? traditional Marxist-Leninist? Trotskyite? Fabian? Bakunin? Mao? Menshevik? Bolshevik? Pol Pot full on year zero? Gramsci or Frankfurt cultural change stuff?

Quote from: Robert Ghostwolf's Ghost on December 20, 2014, 07:37:42 PM
... That's because it doesn't exist.  When you say the "Left" you're talking about maybe a couple of dozen of aged, delusional, bitter, leftover sixties revolutionaries.  Most people you consider to be leftists really don't feel that way.  Honest.

Well, living in and around Berkeley all these years I see the signs, I hear the speeches, the conversations, the op-eds and letters to the editor.  There is a never ending parade of American Leftists that go to Cuba to kiss Fidel's ring.  The same with Hugo Chavez until that POS thankfully died.  I personally know people who went to Nicaragua to pick coffee for the Sandinistas.  And etc.

There are always cries from the Democrats in Congress when we want to support our friends in places like Colombia, anywhere really.  Just like there were always those in Congress who did their level best to make us abandon our friends in Latin America and elsewhere when the Soviets and Cubans were on the march.  Boland Amendments?

People who are forever agitating for us to draw down our weaponry, our military, to disarm, to abandon our friends - meanwhile China is arming itself to the teeth and threatening our peaceful friends and allies in the region, as are the Russians, as is ISIS and the rest of Islamic Jihad.

If you truly believe what you posted, you are misinformed and following the wrong side.

You are remarkably gullible for Left-wing crap.  Try questioning some of it sometime


Quote from: NowhereInTime on December 20, 2014, 02:26:35 PM
This entire point stems from your premise that Obama is a marxist who hates America...

Yeah, where would anyone get that idea

DanTSX

I wish we obtained some favorable conditions from the deal.


I also wish that someone did this before Obama did.   This was a no-brainer and low-hanging fruit that any previous president after Reagan could had easily plucked for significant political and economic lift. Now Obama gets all of the glory for something that should had been done in the GHWB or Clinton admin, or GWB at the latest.


I also hope we just send EBT and welfare cards directly to cuba instead of importing a bunch of new illegals here before giving it to them.

DanTSX

Quote from: Yorkshire pud on December 20, 2014, 01:52:19 PM



Many years ago, the husband of the friend of my girlfriend at the time bought a Yugo and thought he'd got a bargain new car for the price. In less than two years he couldn't give the pile of junk away. Horrible pale yellow I remember that faded to bleached vomit colour.


So he made out slightly better than buying a contemporary British automobile......

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: Paper*Boy on December 20, 2014, 08:44:13 PM
Well, living in and around Berkeley all these years I see the signs, I hear the speeches, the conversations, the op-eds and letters to the editor.  There is a never ending parade of American Leftists that go to Cuba to kiss Fidel's ring.


Now, you can say I'm cynical, but I'm calling total bullshit.  To date, you can get to Cuba from the USA, but not directly and the bureaucracy involved precludes this fictitious 'never ending stream'. Or do you mean one or two? Couple of dozen per annum? Several thousand Canadians and Brits, Hungarians, a few French and Spanish and Russians go to Cuba each year, and I for one never saw a queue of people around the block waiting to kiss Castro's ring, or indeed anyone's ring. I never saw one American either.




Quote
The same with Hugo Chavez until that POS thankfully died.  I personally know people who went to Nicaragua to pick coffee for the Sandinistas.  And etc.

There are always cries from the Democrats in Congress when we want to support our friends in places like Colombia, anywhere really.  Just like there were always those in Congress who did their level best to make us abandon our friends in Latin America and elsewhere when the Soviets and Cubans were on the march.  Boland Amendments?

People who are forever agitating for us to draw down our weaponry, our military, to disarm, to abandon our friends - meanwhile China is arming itself to the teeth and threatening our peaceful friends and allies in the region, as are the Russians, as is ISIS and the rest of Islamic Jihad.

If you truly believe what you posted, you are misinformed and following the wrong side.




You obviously didn't have enough space in your post to mention the CIA funding of right wing 'rebels' (Some call them terrorists) who were financed to overthrow democratically elected but un politic (To the USA) governments. Head of the CIA when this was going on? One George Bush. Naturally, when the funding stopped after that misunderstanding involving good ole 'I was doing my duty Sir' Ollie North. the 'rebels' didn't pack up and go home; nope, they instead kidnapped the staff of very wealthy American oil companies and held them to ransom. Thus spawning the rise of hostage negotiation and rescue private enterprise.


Still, never mind. It's all forgotten about now and just one more little foible best left to lie.

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: DanTSX on December 20, 2014, 11:31:07 PM

So he made out slightly better than buying a contemporary British automobile......




You could be right; politicians make shit overlords of manufacturing companies. BL was no different, and although they had some very clever and innovative designers, engineers and managers, they were hide bound by the bullshit and lack of motivation from those above and below them.

Quote from: Yorkshire pud on December 21, 2014, 03:04:05 AM
... You obviously didn't have enough space in your post to mention...

And you obviously didn't have enough space in your post to mention that you could only go to certain Castro approved areas in Cuba that only show off the best and hide the worst of the regime.  No mention of political prisoners, torture, repression, grinding poverty, censorship, acting as the Soviet and now Russian proxy meddling in our hemisphere with the idea of causing mischief and creating more Cubas...

The term Potemkin Villages comes to mind.

And yes, there are more than a few counties that owe their lack of a Castro-style regime to US support and the CIA.  Too bad some others didn't escape that fate

In fact Brittan itself is not speaking German today due to our military intervention and support.

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: Paper*Boy on December 21, 2014, 04:34:31 AM
And you obviously didn't have enough space in your post to mention that you could only go to certain Castro approved areas in Cuba that only show off the best and hide the worst of the regime.  No mention of political prisoners, torture, repression, grinding poverty, censorship, acting as the Soviet and now Russian proxy meddling in our hemisphere with the idea of causing mischief and creating more Cubas...

The term Potemkin Villages comes to mind.

And yes, there are more than a few counties that owe their lack of a Castro-style regime to US support and the CIA.  Too bad some others didn't escape that fate

In fact Brittan itself is not speaking German today due to our military intervention and support.

Oh bless you. But do carry on. And it's Britain.

Quote from: Yorkshire pud on December 21, 2014, 04:51:07 AM
... And it's Britain.

For now.

Sometime soon it will be بريطانيا

But, you know, Castro, the Queen, David Cameron, Hitler, the Moslems, no real difference - all just a bunch of right wingers,

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: Paper*Boy on December 21, 2014, 05:44:53 AM
For now.

Sometime soon it will be بريطانيا

But, you know, Castro, the Queen, David Cameron, Hitler, the Moslems, no real difference - all just a bunch of right wingers,

It's way past your bedtime. Go on..up the wooden hill. Sleep tight. In the morning you'll be fine.

Who

I believe this may be a good thing.  It's certainly another way Uncle Sam has poked Putin in  the eye with a sharp stick.  With Putin's economy imploding, he has nothing to offer Cuba.  In walk the Americans.  From what I have read, Fidel's mind is almost gone.  Raul can't have that many years to live.  Give them a few more years and Cuba may very well be transformed into a democracy.

Quote from: Paper*Boy on December 20, 2014, 08:44:13 PM
Well, living in and around Berkeley all these years I see the signs, I hear the speeches, the conversations, the op-eds and letters to the editor.  There is a never ending parade of American Leftists that go to Cuba to kiss Fidel's ring. 


Well, what did you expect when you chose to live in Berkeley, the spiritual center of the extreme fringe Left?  It sounds like you've been there so long surrounded and greatly outnumbered by your perceived enemies that you think everyone in the country who is to your left is in lockstep with them.  That just ain't the case, Sunshine, and you seem to be equating the loud noises a few people in your little part of the country make with a terrible power and influence they clearly don't have in any kind of measure.  Maybe you should try living in a place like Nebraska or Indiana for awhile to get a different perspective.

You also need to put down the crack pipe if you're seeing endless parades of Leftists making pilgrimages to Cuba to kiss Fidel's ring.  That's pure fantasy. 

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