Cuba

[yumyumtree]

Bad or good?  I tend to be cynical and think that this is not the right tack to take with Cuba, but I know a lot of people think otherwise.  Also, isn't it curious that Elian Gonzalez(remember him?) has grown up to be a big commie?  I wonder if he even remembers the time he spent with his cousins in Miami or the ordeal on the raft with his mother.

[Evil Twin Of Zen]

i don't really know. i'm not a political advocate of Mr. Obama. this action with Cuba, out of all that Mr. Obama has done while in office, might be the only real hope and change with which i can agree.

with that said, i give you this....


President Nixon Announces Trip To China

[albrecht]

My only issue is the reasoning. What is to gain, for us the USA, from the capitulation?

1) We got back one prisoner. Which is very good for him and his family.
2) We can get to travel to Cuba (maybe) more easily and cheaply for what: old car parts? (Most of them are pretty beaten up, better to look here or buy reproductions.) Hookers or even underage hookers? (Got plenty crossing our open-border by sex traffickers now or a perv can travel to Mex or the Orient) Music, ok, Cheap Vacation, ok (but for how long)
3) maybe we can get Cuban cigars (not hard to come by and Fidel has ramped up production to a level that the cigars made by the exiles in Honduras, etc, are just as good- if not better.)

What can the Cuban government get from the capitulation:
1)reputation and "street cred" of beating (or least waiting out) the US
2) hard currency
3) cheaper foreign goods to replace their crumbling infrastructure, appliances, etc
4) a new place to flee, easier with increased travel and commerce I would imagine easier for an illegal to escape or move to the USA
5) more investment from China, Venezuela, or even China (or anyone who wants a closer area to spy, intercept communications, or refuel ships/subs.)
6) they get 3 prisoners for our one (in the usual odd way of Obama bargaining.)

I get the idea, the embargo is a little ridiculous on the face of it considering Europe etc has broken it so Cuba is not really isolated. And any American who wants to visit already can via another country. Having said that we could've bargained better or simply waited until Cuba was really, really broken (say when Raul died) and they rushed in and got a government we want etc. I understand the theory of using business, media, etc. Though I suspect for Obama the motives might lie in more siding with the communist rebels or anybody who "poked an eye" of the evil USA. And, maybe, to get more immigrants here.

[Kelt]

i don't really know. i'm not a political advocate of Mr. Obama. this action with Cuba, out of all that Mr. Obama has done while in office, might be the only real hope and change with which i can agree.

with that said, i give you this....


President Nixon Announces Trip To China

I've been keen on a trip to China for a while now, but a friend of mine was there  for a few months for GM and she really didn't care for the place.  Okay if you have cash, but way too much riffraff for it to be enjoyable, apparently


In the future I'll stick to First World destinations and leave the emerging economies to the off-roaders.


Different kettle of fish in Tricky Dicky's day, though. Everyone in grey PJs, riding clapped out bicycles, and no internet access for all the tea in, well, China.

[GeorgieForPresident2216]

It sucks.  Now we Canadians can't bribe American politicians with Cuban cigars.

Not to mention everyone down there is a doctor so now they're going to come take all your medical jobs as well as baseball player jobs  : .

But I guess if it helps the plight of the average poverty stricken Cuban and eases international tensions and encourages other countries to cooperate, I'm all for it.

[aldousburbank]

You'd think that there would be some political fallout to follow cooperation with a communist dictator, for Raul Castro.

[Kelt]

It sucks.  Now we Canadians can't bribe American politicians with Cuban cigars.

Not to mention everyone down there is a doctor so now they're going to come take all your medical jobs as well as baseball player jobs  : .

But I guess if it helps the plight of the average poverty stricken Cuban, I'm all for it.

On a positive note we can maybe turn Cuba back into an open air whorehouse where rich Americans can indulge in the perversions that are frowned upon on the mainland. So it's swing and roundabouts, yes?



http://youtu.be/GDXYzUlv0S8

[Quick Karl]

How is it even possible for any American, or anyone that else for that matter, not to see a problem with a dictator that passes lordship over a country to a relative, as opposed to having actual elections, even if the election process is flawed and the State Media backs the communist party, like in the USA...

Yet some N Korean petty tyrant has America on its knees quivering in fear...

Fucking country of cunts.

[GeorgieForPresident2216]

It's a problem to have an autocratic dictator, but allowing the citizens to starve isn't necessarily the best solution if the country doesn't pose a clear and present threat.  While not much of the increased trade may trickle down, any empowerment of the people and access to information (aka via improved access to the internet) about Western cultures and display of support from Western culture is the best way to dispose of an autocratic government, from the inside, through empowering, educating and motivating the citizens.

[WhiteCrow]

It had to happen someday... But I'd rather it happen after the Castro brothers were dead. And at least some omission by Obama and Cuba that billions of dollars of American Citizens owned assets were seized by Cuba. A lot of these seized assets were owned by middle class Americans.

[WhiteCrow]

It's a problem to have an autocratic dictator, but allowing the citizens to starve isn't necessarily the best solution if the country doesn't pose a clear and present threat.  While not much of the increased trade may trickle down, any empowerment of the people and access to information (aka via improved access to the internet) about Western cultures and display of support from Western culture is the best way to dispose of an autocratic government through empowering, educating and motivating the citizens.

That all sounds good, but the opposite is true in a lot of cases. Remember the hope of the Arab Spring and what mess the Middle East is now. Our foreign policy in the Middle East should be, turn a blind eye to arms sells and let them kill each other. Back Israel and quietly incourage them  to bomb any middle east nation's nuclear bomb producing facilities.
Some of these 'Raggie' countries populations are just primitive uneducated idiots, and need a strong man totalitarianism system to keep order.

[GeorgieForPresident2216]

That all sounds good, but the opposite is true in a lot of cases. Remember the hope of the Arab Spring and what mess the Middle East is now. Our foreign policy in the Middle East should be, turn a blind eye to arms sells and let them kill each other. Back Israel and quietly incourage them  to bomb any middle east nation's nuclear bomb producing facilities.
Some of these 'Raggie' countries populations are just primitive uneducated idiots, and need a strong man totalitarianism system to keep order.

The path to democracy is often slow and messy.  It's messy  in Egypt where they rose up.  It's messy in Libya where they rose up.  But we tried to force it on Iraq and Afghanistan, and those places are the biggest problem areas.  I think that's why it has to come from the inside.  I still hold out hope for Egypt and maybe Libya.  Syria, I don't know... they have too many strikes against them.

Using North Korea as an illustration, I think Kim-Jong Un made all those crazy threats against American and South Korea so we would actually put more sanctions and pressure on N. Korea.  Then Kim-Jong can say 'look at what the evil west is doing to us.  I'm standing up to them.  If they try anything we'll wipe them out with our 1.2 million troops, our 3500 tanks, and our 620 planes, and our nuclear warheads.'  And the people believe it because they don't know any better, so in spite of the increased sanctions he consolidates power.  I wonder if we could somehow educate the North Korean people and give them food.. show them there's an alternative... I wonder if they might rise up.

[SciFiAuthor]

My only issue is the reasoning. What is to gain, for us the USA, from the capitulation?

1) We got back one prisoner. Which is very good for him and his family.
2) We can get to travel to Cuba (maybe) more easily and cheaply for what: old car parts? (Most of them are pretty beaten up, better to look here or buy reproductions.) Hookers or even underage hookers? (Got plenty crossing our open-border by sex traffickers now or a perv can travel to Mex or the Orient) Music, ok, Cheap Vacation, ok (but for how long)
3) maybe we can get Cuban cigars (not hard to come by and Fidel has ramped up production to a level that the cigars made by the exiles in Honduras, etc, are just as good- if not better.)

What can the Cuban government get from the capitulation:
1)reputation and "street cred" of beating (or least waiting out) the US
2) hard currency
3) cheaper foreign goods to replace their crumbling infrastructure, appliances, etc
4) a new place to flee, easier with increased travel and commerce I would imagine easier for an illegal to escape or move to the USA
5) more investment from China, Venezuela, or even China (or anyone who wants a closer area to spy, intercept communications, or refuel ships/subs.)
6) they get 3 prisoners for our one (in the usual odd way of Obama bargaining.)

I get the idea, the embargo is a little ridiculous on the face of it considering Europe etc has broken it so Cuba is not really isolated. And any American who wants to visit already can via another country. Having said that we could've bargained better or simply waited until Cuba was really, really broken (say when Raul died) and they rushed in and got a government we want etc. I understand the theory of using business, media, etc. Though I suspect for Obama the motives might lie in more siding with the communist rebels or anybody who "poked an eye" of the evil USA. And, maybe, to get more immigrants here.

There is one thing we gain that seems important to me. We stick it in Putin's a**. He's been trying to use Cuba to threaten us cold war-style since the Ukraine issue began. But this is counterproductive to Putin, so perhaps that's where this all lies. Same with oil prices, the dramatic drop is not good for Putin, neither are the sanctions. Just a thought.

[WOTR]

What can the Cuban government get from the capitulation:
3) cheaper foreign goods to replace their crumbling infrastructure, appliances, etc
4) a new place to flee, easier with increased travel and commerce I would imagine easier for an illegal to escape or move to the USA

It could be that Obama has decided that a few decades worth of hypocrisy is enough.  We will trade trillions with China despite the human rights record and the rather oppressive, communist regime because we see some benefit.  We maintain diplomatic ties with Russia (and despite some economic sanctions are happy to do business with them.)  We continue doing business with states who have a record of allowing terrorism, yet for some reason we draw the line at a tiny, almost insignificant state?  (Well, aside from Gitmo where we are thrilled to have off-shore torturing facilities.)


It strikes me that they already have access to as much cheap crap as they want.  Most other countries already trade with them and i doubt that they really are clamouring to "buy American" nor would they have the cash... Does the US actually produce any appliances anymore?


The majority of Cubans do not travel outside of Cuba... For some reason, their government does not seem to allow the citizens free travel.  I doubt that they will suddenly decide to allow them to travel to the US just because the US opens (some) trade.  I think the only real immigration you need to worry about is the old fashioned type where somebody lands on the shores of Florida.  Naturally, I have suggested that the shore line be mined as a deterrent to keep those damn illegals out- but my calls have been ignored by the traitorous, immigrant welcoming administration.

[WOTR]

What can the Cuban government get from the capitulation:
2) hard currency

Sorry- I had to look up the actual figures or I would have included this in last post.  They already have access to hard currency as the US government decided way back when to allow people with close relatives in Cuba to send money back home.


Anyhow, the economy now has an estimated 5.1 billion sent from Americans to Cuba and does roughly 2.5 billion in tourism (even without Americans.)  Remittances to Cuba actually account for a larger chunk of change than the next four largest sectors of the economy combined.


No, I do not think that Cuba was really hurting for access to a "hard currency."


Sources from:
http://thehavanaconsultinggroups.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=345%3Aremittances-drive-the-cuban-economy&lang=en


Edit:  Re-reading the article I actually find that it was Castro who did not allow remittances until 1993... "Fidel Castro’s government reluctantly accepted remittances from abroad in 1993  when it realized it needed access to hard currency to survive."

[Juan]

Many of you do not seem to have kept up.  The United States has been the largest supplier of food and medicine to Cuba for more than a decade. Governors made trade junkets to Cuba throughout the Bush administration.  I've long called this a half-assed embargo.


Even with US trade the castro brothers continued their looting of the country's citizens. Fidel is particularly interesting as a study - in college and law school he was a big supporter of Hitler.  He decided he was a communist when the Soviets helped his takeover of the revolution.

Then there's this - The Cuban government keeps 92% of the wages earned by Cuban employees of foreign firms.  The firms pay the government, then the government pays the workers.
http://www.havanatimes.org/?p=107948

[VtaGeezer]

Embargo as US policy has failed every place it was used. The US embargo of Cuba has done far more to help than hinder the Castros maintain control.  It's their most visible excuse for the population's economic and political misery.  That said, this new Cuba policy is hollow.  The trade embargo is not just policy but law, and will undoubtedly remain so with the Rs running Congress. Open tourism and scheduled air service are still banned; only licensed group travel via charters are allowed. It will be of some value, allowing diplomatic contact with the bull pen of potential Castro successors, and for direct offset of Putin's and Chinese influence; though its doubtful Putin can afford to prop up the Castros to be the burr under America's saddle as in the old Soviet days, as he may have hoped to.

[PB the Deplorable]

It's interesting that people like Obama hate the police but embrace police states.  Claim we torture and condemn that, but don't seem to mind countries like Cuba that really do torture people.

Even though Cuba - unlike the other similar regimes we've made peace with - is 90 miles off our shore, has meddled in the affairs of our Latin neighbors, has funded groups hostile to them and to us, has killed Americans, this same Castro regime invited the Soviet Union to station nuclear missiles pointed at us in Cuba, acted as their proxy in our hemisphere for decades, on and on, I think it's probably past time to end the embargo.

What I resent is the way it was done.

Obama called us 'colonists' and compared that to communist Cuba.  This man hates us, and he hates the West.  When, exactly, did the US have colonies?  Other than the colonies we received from Spain after defeating them militarily - Cuba, Puerto Rica, the Philippines, and Guam.

We gave Cuba and the Philippines their independence and have offered the same to Puerto Rico.  Some lousy colonist we've been. 

That war - the Spanish-American war - was kicked off when the US sided with Cuba in its struggle for independence from Spain, and Spain declared war on us.  Yeah, Mr Obama, we're just like the Castro's.  Asswipe.

The end of the embargo means little to us economically.  As Juan pointed out, we've been feeding them for years already.  We got a hostage back and handed over 3 spies whose actions directly caused the deaths of numerous Americans.  What kind of 'deal' is that?  And it took 18 months to get it?  Really?  It reminded me of the trade of 5 top permanent-captive-do-not-release Taliban leaders for one US soldier who went AWOL.

It seems to me the Cuban regime should have been the one making concessions.  At minimum we should have demanded a permanent release of all political prisoners, and the implementation of certain steps - however small - towards economic and political freedom for the people.  Change in polices to help the people, not the regime.

Obama's Undersecretary of State was recently asked - straight up and under oath in the US Senate - whether we were contemplating an end to the embargo.   He flat out lied and said 'no'.  Then this Obama weasel announces this action the day after Congress leaves for recess.

This projection of cluelessness and weakness is very dangerous for us and for our allies.  Mr. Obama, please resign.  Just go the fuck away.

[Quick Karl]

Clearly, Castro and Obama are related.

[Gd5150]

Then there's this - The Cuban government keeps 92% of the wages earned by Cuban employees of foreign firms.  The firms pay the government, then the government pays the workers.
http://www.havanatimes.org/?p=107948

Well now we know why Obama, Reed, and the media are fans of this.

[albrecht]

You'd think that there would be some political fallout to follow cooperation with a communist dictator, for Raul Castro.

[NowhereInTime]

It's interesting that people like Obama hate the police but embrace police states.  Claim we torture and condemn that, but don't seem to mind countries like Cuba that really do torture people.

Another unfounded, illogical, and wholly otherwise untrue statement. Do you think maybe he does mind about the torture and hopes engaging the Cubans will mitigate this abuse?

Even though Cuba - unlike the other similar regimes we've made peace with - is 90 miles off our shore, has meddled in the affairs of our Latin neighbors, has funded groups hostile to them and to us, has killed Americans, this same Castro regime invited the Soviet Union to station nuclear missiles pointed at us in Cuba, acted as their proxy in our hemisphere for decades, on and on, I think it's probably past time to end the embargo.

Hey! You got one right!

What I resent is the way it was done.

Of course you do.  Uppity Bar and his negronistas makin' trouble.

Obama called us 'colonists' and compared that to communist Cuba.

Really?  When?

This man hates us, and he hates the West.

Yet thrives at its highest levels.  Really shows off that hatred.

When, exactly, did the US have colonies?

Good question...

...Other than the colonies we received from Spain after defeating them militarily - Cuba, Puerto Rica, the Philippines, and Guam.

It was a trick! You knew that already!

We gave Cuba and the Philippines their independence

No, we gave Cuba to thugs like Castro and the Phillipines to the murderous Ferdinand Marcos, but close!

...and have offered the same to Puerto Rico.

Um, no we haven't

Some lousy colonist we've been.

So, bombing Vieques Island, being asked to leave Clark and Subic, still being asked to leave Okinawa, waiving labor laws in Guam and the Marianas (not to mention treatment of indigenous people in all 50 states) qualifies as bein' a good Massuh?   

That war - the Spanish-American war - was kicked off when the US sided with Cuba in its struggle for independence from Spain, and Spain declared war on us.  Yeah, Mr Obama, we're just like the Castro's.

We were greeted as liberators.  No, really.

Asswipe.

Now you're just being gratuitous.

The end of the embargo means little to us economically.

Wrong.  I'm just going to let history prove you wrong and me right. Like it did with your claim of runaway inflation.  Like it has with your boy Putin.  Like it has your prediction on Obamacare.
Reality sucks. Don't it.

As Juan pointed out,

Great. More semantics.

... we've been feeding them for years already.  We got a hostage back and handed over 3 spies whose actions directly caused the deaths of numerous Americans.  What kind of 'deal' is that?  And it took 18 months to get it?  Really?  It reminded me of the trade of 5 top permanent-captive-do-not-release Taliban leaders for one US soldier who went AWOL.

Right, because when Conservatives say "leave no American behind", it's patriotism but when Liberals do it, it's treason.  To quote you: "Absurd."

It seems to me the Cuban regime should have been the one making concessions.  At minimum we should have demanded a permanent release of all political prisoners, and the implementation of certain steps - however small - towards economic and political freedom for the people.  Change in polices to help the people, not the regime.

Yeah, because stamping your feet making demands and setting preconditions has worked so well before.

Obama's Undersecretary of State was recently asked - straight up and under oath in the US Senate - whether we were contemplating an end to the embargo.   He flat out lied and said 'no'.  Then this Obama weasel announces this action the day after Congress leaves for recess.

Yet Marco Rubio still found time to declare himself the King of Congress and declare US/Cuban relations dead on arrival.  Glad he feels he can speak for 534 other elected officials.

This projection of cluelessness and weakness is very dangerous for us and for our allies.

Right, because the other thing was working so well.  For the last 60 years.

Mr. Obama, please resign.  Just go the fuck away.

You first.

[GeorgieForPresident2216]

Obama called us 'colonists' and compared that to communist Cuba.  This man hates us, and he hates the West.  When, exactly, did the US have colonies?  Other than the colonies we received from Spain after defeating them militarily - Cuba, Puerto Rica, the Philippines, and Guam.

I don't know about that comment but Americans were colonists -- British colonists divided into thirteen territories.  I think you're talking about colonialists.

[PB the Deplorable]

I don't know about that comment but Americans were colonists -- British colonists divided into thirteen territories.  I think you're talking about colonialists.

Thanks for the correction, that's what I meant

Really?  When?

From his announcement speech:

"... And I call on all my fellow leaders to give meaning to the commitment to democracy and human rights at the heart of the inter- American charter. Let us leave behind the legacy of both colonization and communism..."


And further on inserts the idea into his remarks again, although less directly:

"... To the Cuban people, America extends a hand of friendship. Some of you have looked to us as a source of hope and we will continue to shine a light of freedom. Others have seen us as a former colonizer, intent on controlling your future..."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/transcript-obamas-remarks-on-us-cuba-relations/2014/12/17/08366538-8612-11e4-9534-f79a23c40e6c_story.html

No, we gave Cuba to thugs like Castro and the Phillipines to the murderous Ferdinand Marcos, but close!

Castro didn't overthrow the US, they overthrew Bautista in 1959.  The US was ceded Cuba in 1898, and they were granted independence in 1902

The Philippines became an independent country in 1945 in the aftermath of WWII.  Marcos came to power in 1965.  20 years later

Um, no we haven't

Well, there is quite a long history of independence movements in PR, so far it's not been the desire of the majority.

Highlights include:  1952 when the people voted 80-some percent in favor of Commonwealth status, and 2012 when the voters there were offered a choice between continuing Commonwealth status, Statehood, or Independence.  Independence was not chosen by the majority of those who voted - in fact that got about 5% of the vote

The 2012 referendum was complicated, as it was a 2 step vote.  Step One was on keeping Commonwealth status - which received a 52% No vote, then in Part Two Statehood won a plurality but not a majority between Independence, Statehood, keeping Commonwealth status, or casting a blank ballot.  Not counting the blank ballots, Statehood won 60 some percent of the votes.   Apparently they don't feel repressed.  Independence would likely mean giving up US citizenship status, granted in 1917

[NowhereInTime]

Thanks for the correction, that's what I meant

From his announcement speech:

"... And I call on all my fellow leaders to give meaning to the commitment to democracy and human rights at the heart of the inter- American charter. Let us leave behind the legacy of both colonization and communism..."


And further on inserts the idea into his remarks again, although less directly:

"... To the Cuban people, America extends a hand of friendship. Some of you have looked to us as a source of hope and we will continue to shine a light of freedom. Others have seen us as a former colonizer, intent on controlling your future..."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/transcript-obamas-remarks-on-us-cuba-relations/2014/12/17/08366538-8612-11e4-9534-f79a23c40e6c_story.html

This is so different from him calling us a colonizer.  This is a specious derivation and intentionally skewed interpretation of his remarks which, BTW, were a diplomatic conveyance to the OAS and the Cuban people, not a rebuke of the American people.

Castro didn't overthrow the US, they overthrew Bautista in 1959.  The US was ceded Cuba in 1898, and they were granted independence in 1902

Right.  I would protest loudly that I meant Bautista, but that's the price I pay for going for the snark and not paying attention to typing text.  Still, I didn't say Castro overthrew the US.

The Philippines became an independent country in 1945 in the aftermath of WWII.  Marcos came to power in 1965.  20 years later

Right, but even a cursory run through post WWII Philippine history is a glimpse of strongmen, limited democracy, and sectarianism that led to the Marcos regime.

Well, there is quite a long history of independence movements in PR, so far it's not been the desire of the majority.

Anecdotally, one of my closest friends is active in PR politics and favors statehood.  (He went to college in Ohio.  He would like us to either formalize statehood with full representation or cut them loose to figure it out but despises the current protectorate status.

Highlights include:  1952 when the people voted 80-some percent in favor of Commonwealth status, and 2012 when the voters there were offered a choice between continuing Commonwealth status, Statehood, or Independence.  Independence was not chosen by the majority of those who voted - in fact that got about 5% of the vote

The 2012 referendum was complicated, as it was a 2 step vote.  Step One was on keeping Commonwealth status - which received a 52% No vote, then in Part Two Statehood won a plurality but not a majority between Independence, Statehood, keeping Commonwealth status, or casting a blank ballot.  Not counting the blank ballots, Statehood won 60 some percent of the votes.

Yes, which is the preferred status.

Apparently they don't feel repressed.  Independence would likely mean giving up US citizenship status, granted in 1917

Not boot-to-the-throat oppressed, but lacking-self-determination-rights-states-enjoy oppressed.  Many do, in fact, prefer citizenship.  10,000+ Puerto Ricans serve in US Armed Forces, so why not the right of Statehood?

[PB the Deplorable]

... This is so different from him calling us a colonizer.  This is a specious derivation and intentionally skewed interpretation of his remarks which, BTW, were a diplomatic conveyance to the OAS and the Cuban people, not a rebuke of the American people...

Keep drinkin' the Kool-aid

Can you imagine any other President saying that.  Well other then the bitter Carter in his ex-Presidential years?

... Anecdotally, one of my closest friends is active in PR politics and favors statehood.  (He went to college in Ohio.  He would like us to either formalize statehood with full representation or cut them loose to figure it out but despises the current protectorate status...

Not boot-to-the-throat oppressed, but lacking-self-determination-rights-states-enjoy oppressed.  Many do, in fact, prefer citizenship.  10,000+ Puerto Ricans serve in US Armed Forces, so why not the right of Statehood?

Heck, I'd like for Northern Calf and Southern Oregon to break away and form a new State.  I wouldn't mind Washington DC to be given independence and declared an enemy - as long as the politicians and bureaucrats were fenced in.  I think it would be wonderful to grant independence to the Liberal West and East Coast cities, and break them off from the rest of the country - we could trade food and manufactured goods to them in exchange for port access - although I think every person and every business would spontaneously try to move into our new, better run country.

I think at some point in the (distant) future the US will break up into several different countries.  Maybe some day I'll live in a new country comprised of Northern California, Oregon, Washington, British Columbia, and any contiguous states/provinces or parts of states who want to join and we agree to have.  With the understanding that lots of newcomers from other states would be happier going back home.

But, you know, I just have one vote.

[NowhereInTime]

Keep drinkin' the Kool-aid

Can you imagine any other President saying that.  Well other then the bitter Carter in his ex-Presidential years?

No, because so many other Presidents (other than Carter) lacked integrity.  And I hate to say that because I include JFK in that group when it comes to Cuba.

Heck, I'd like for Northern Calf and Southern Oregon to break away and form a new State.

A libertarian utopia! We could call it "Wanksylvania".

I wouldn't mind Washington DC to be given independence and declared an enemy - as long as the politicians and bureaucrats were fenced in.  I think it would be wonderful to grant independence to the Liberal West and East Coast cities, and break them off from the rest of the country - we could trade food and manufactured goods to them in exchange for port access - although I think every person and every business would spontaneously try to move into our new, better run country.

Yes, everybody wants to live in the 1880's wild west.  That's why it has survived to this day.

I think at some point in the (distant) future the US will break up into several different countries.

Another libertarian beat-off fantasy. Tiny little fiefdoms they can control, where wealth is the whole of the law.

Maybe some day I'll live in a new country comprised of Northern California, Oregon, Washington, British Columbia, and any contiguous states/provinces or parts of states who want to join and we agree to have.

And give up your current citizenship in Freedonia?  Perish the thought.

With the understanding that lots of newcomers from other states would be happier going back home.

Yes, you could put them on box cars and transport them to places where you could concentrate them together before execution deportation...

But, you know, I just have one vote.

In Putin's Russia, his "love of country" would eliminate even that. A small price to pay for you, I'm sure.

[PB the Deplorable]

... A libertarian utopia! We could call it "Wanksylvania"

... Another libertarian beat-off fantasy. Tiny little fiefdoms they can control, where wealth is the whole of the law.

No worries - you could still post on the forum. 

Unless your Marxist utopia taxed your internet connection to the point you couldn't afford it anymore.  Or regulated the company out of business and replaced it with a non-working 'People's Connection'.

[albrecht]

I didn't watch "Our Dear Leader's" speech today, because, so far, it is not, yet, compulsory, but how did he deal with Cuba being on our "terrorist watch list?" Have they been removed by his State Dept yet? Nope.
http://www.state.gov/j/ct/list/c14151.htm

Country Designation Date Cuba March 1, 1982 Iran January 19, 1984 Sudan August 12, 1993 Syria December 29, 1979

I guess Obama's idea is to keep them on his State Dept's watchlist for terrorism AND also normalize relations? This guy is weird.

[PB the Deplorable]

... how did he deal with Cuba being on our "terrorist watch list?"...

He joined them.