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Mark Driscoll

Started by yumyumtree, August 25, 2014, 05:07:20 PM

yumyumtree

This may not be of interest unless you 1. are interested  generally in faith news or 2. Are from the Pacific NW.

Pastor Mark Driscoll, who helped found Mars Hill church 18 years ago in Seattle ( it has since grown to 15 locations in the region with 15,000 members, or at least regular attendees) has been in increasing amounts if trouble lately and is now stepping down for an indefinite period. Among the problems were his bullying leadership style, allegations of plagiarism in one of his books and use of church funds to pay a service that games the NYT best seller list for one of his books.

Mars Hill recently acquired an old Armory( on Oakes I think) for a new Mars Hill Everett. I was thinking of going just out of curiosity but felt like I was two timing my regular church, Westminster Pres. and also they play the ghastly modern music I hate as opposed to traditional hymns. The church I used to attend in Seattle, University Pres., used to collaborate with Mars Hill on some things but I noticed they stopped. I'm guessing it was because of doctrine( that predestination thing which I can't get my mind around) or else Driscoll's personality. UPC had some women pastors but Driscoll really balks at this.

I noticed that they seem to as little as possible to their buildings, the outsides anyway. The armory still looks like an armory, with a Mars Hill sign on it. The flagship church is one of the ugliest buildings in Ballard, and that's saying a lot.

There has been a lot about this on The website Patheos, if you are interested. Like I said, faith news.

yumyumtree

Update: the downtown Seattle and U District churches will be merging with the Ballard church due to decreasing attendance, according to news(probably KOMO) today.  Also I think another pastor stepped down.

Never heard of this guy before today, but it looks like Driscoll has imploded on an epic scale:

According to Christianity Today, the pastor had trolled online discussion forums under the pseudonym "William Wallace II," and lambasted the supposed rise of "male lesbians;" "feman," (men who act like women, in his definition); and "men who allow their wives to nag at them."

http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/15/us/driscoll-megachurch-pastor-resigns/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Now I'm going to have to search the bellGab user list for William Wallace II...

The General

Quote from: Agent : Orange on October 15, 2014, 08:33:58 PM
Never heard of this guy before today, but it looks like Driscoll has imploded on an epic scale:

According to Christianity Today, the pastor had trolled online discussion forums under the pseudonym "William Wallace II," and lambasted the supposed rise of "male lesbians;" "feman," (men who act like women, in his definition); and "men who allow their wives to nag at them."

http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/15/us/driscoll-megachurch-pastor-resigns/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Now I'm going to have to search the bellGab user list for William Wallace II...

He sounds like my kinda guy.

Kelt


yumyumtree

I don't think so.  I think he's happily married.  He has a well-known enthusiasm for fellatio, but only with his wife, as far as I know.  His frankness about sexual matters and body functions is one of the things that gets other pastors drawers in a twist, that's for sure.
Since he resigned earlier this month,
I think people are waiting for another shoe to drop, and they're hoping it will be sexual, but I don't think it will be.  The problems will continue to be 1.Driscoll acting like a dictator and bullying people, 2. Using a service to game the NYT bestseller list( and I'm sure that proceeds from that book and his others go directly into Driscolls pocket. Nothing wrong with that, unless you've used church funds for a service providing shadowy services)

This is not a cause to gloat because Driscoll did what a lot of people said couldnt be done--brought  Gen X and millenials, many of them with families, to a Christian church that was decidedly NOT watered-down or new-agey.  And he did it in the least-churched city in the country.  He deserves some credit for that.    But it's also clearly a case of hubris.

On a personal note, I was upset a few years ago, when Driscoll made headlines calling yoga demonic, because it has helped me with a lot of my health problems.

area51drone

Everything I have heard on KIRO and read about him makes him sound like a jerk.   It wasn't just that he used a service to game the NYT bestseller list - he used $200,000 of church money to have the service buy his books to get on the bestseller list.    Searching around for his wife, looks like maybe she cheated on him at some point, but nothing concrete about it.  Maybe that's why she's willing to give him all the head he wants. 

yumyumtree

According to today's Seattle Times, Mars Hill is officially disbanding.  Individual churches will be encouraged(and maybe financially helped) to go independent.


albrecht

Quote from: yumyumtree on October 31, 2014, 06:03:21 PM
According to today's Seattle Times, Mars Hill is officially disbanding.  Individual churches will be encouraged(and maybe financially helped) to go independent.
I've always been a bit suspicious when the pastor becomes too much of the focus of the church, or in this case, churches. It sounds like going more local will be a good thing. Something about mega-churches unsettles me. But I'm also more of a traditionalist when it comes to churches and also don't like the newer hymns, liturgies, etc. (Recognizing that, however, it is the more charismatic, inclusive, multi-cultural churches that are growing.)

yumyumtree

This is why a lot of older, more established churches have complex organizational systems that help prevent the "key person" syndrome or worse yet, a dictatorial or cult-like turn. Having a bunch of boring, stuffy rules may not seem like the way Jesus wouldhave done it, but it beats the alternative. It set off alarm bells when rules got changed to allow Driscoll to be more of a dictator.

So one way of looking at it is the system worked--a church got dismantled, which is preferable to 900 and some corpses in the Guyana sun or some of the other things that have happened when some of these leaders get too much concentrated power.  Dont forget that most cult leaders don't start out as wacked-out kooks.  They often start out as earnest people of God who are doing good things for the community.

albrecht

Quote from: yumyumtree on November 01, 2014, 09:28:58 PM
This is why a lot of older, more established churches have complex organizational systems that help prevent the "key person" syndrome or worse yet, a dictatorial or cult-like turn. Having a bunch of boring, stuffy rules may not seem like the way Jesus wouldhave done it, but it beats the alternative. It set off alarm bells when rules got changed to allow Driscoll to be more of a dictator.

So one way of looking at it is the system worked--a church got dismantled, which is preferable to 900 and some corpses in the Guyana sun or some of the other things that have happened when some of these leaders get too much concentrated power.  Dont forget that most cult leaders don't start out as wacked-out kooks.  They often start out as earnest people of God who are doing good things for the community.
Pride is the biggest sin after all. I reckon it is a good thing what they have done. I'm not sure, but you might be correct, about cult leaders etc. Certainly in almost anything excessive adoration goes to one's head and power corrupts. But, then again, I'm not sure about some of the more infamous cult leaders started with good intentions. Maybe so- Jones, for example, was particularly inclusive and socially conscious (I guess that's why some conspiracy types still claim some conspiracy about him and the murders/suicides.) But I think others are "on purpose" from the beginning running a scam to get money, ego, women, or whatever. Regardless certainly those in power of good intentions or character (churches, government, etc) get tempted and have the ability to abuse their authority or position. And, I think, in many cases some seek out those positions precisely for that reason.

Gd5150

Quote from: albrecht on November 01, 2014, 09:43:52 PM
And, I think, in many cases some seek out those positions precisely for that reason.

Reminds of hearing about both Clinton and Gore talking about meeting JFK at age 16 and knowing at that moment they knew they wanted to be president. Also seemed so odd. A 16yo in the early 60s should be thinking about women and cars. What kind of a narcissist wants to be president of the U.S. at 16? Well now we know.

littlechris

Its pretty sad to see how the whole network of organization's are pretty much going defunct. It was mainly caused by Driscoll's recent resigning. He was not asked to resign, rather, to take some time off. I think Driscoll desided to resign so he can start a new organization. I also think the "elders" and higher ups are being WAAAY too harsh on Driscoll and are making a huge deal about all this. They have publicly admitted that Driscoll has done nothing immoral or illegal. Driscoll has had many enemies/haters over the years. They are jealous because he is the BEST in the biz, even better than Francis Chan.

Though Driscoll needs to learn to behave and get along better with others. Mitigating his faults is the fact that the guy is in his early 40's, and had over 15 satellite networks. All the fame, fortune, and publicity can be pretty heady. His letter of resignation sounded like he has not taken any responsibility for the way he treated people behind the scenes.  The guy is pretty incredible if you've ever heard him. He does get into a lot of sexual issues and adresses EVERYTHING, all while staying with doctrine and never getting obscene or inappropriate. A fine line that is practically impossible when dealing with the issue of sex.  He will be back, hes just too good and talented to not come back.

yumyumtree

Quote from: littlechris on November 01, 2014, 10:56:52 PM
Its pretty sad to see how the whole network of organization's are pretty much going defunct. It was mainly caused by Driscoll's recent resigning. He was not asked to resign, rather, to take some time off. I think Driscoll desided to resign so he can start a new organization. I also think the "elders" and higher ups are being WAAAY too harsh on Driscoll and are making a huge deal about all this. They have publicly admitted that Driscoll has done nothing immoral or illegal. Driscoll has had many enemies/haters over the years. They are jealous because he is the BEST in the biz, even better than Francis Chan.

Though Driscoll needs to learn to behave and get along better with others. Mitigating his faults is the fact that the guy is in his early 40's, and had over 15 satellite networks. All the fame, fortune, and publicity can be pretty heady. His letter of resignation sounded like he has not taken any responsibility for the way he treated people behind the scenes.  The guy is pretty incredible if you've ever heard him. He does get into a lot of sexual issues and adresses EVERYTHING, all while staying with doctrine and never getting obscene or inappropriate. A fine line that is practically impossible when dealing with the issue of sex.  He will be back, hes just too good and talented to not come back.

Have you attended services there?  I ws going to take issue with a couple of things you said, then it occurred to me that I never have attended Mars Hill. What I know is from media sources, including things like Patheos.

The plan is for the churches to go on independently.  How that will go is anybody's guess.  It will probably vary from congregation to congregation.  It never occurred to me that Driscoll might want to start another church.  Interesting thought.

VtaGeezer

Quote from: albrecht on October 31, 2014, 06:09:06 PM
Something about mega-churches unsettles me.
Walmart-style religion.  What could be more American?

paladin1991

Quote from: littlechris on November 01, 2014, 10:56:52 PM
They are jealous because he is the BEST in the biz, even better than Francis Chan.


Who?

yumyumtree

Yes, I was also wondering who Francis Chan is.

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