Oops. AZ execution today takes two hours to kill the guy

[VtaGeezer]

The reporter who witnessed it counted the condenmed's gasps...660.  This insanity puts society on the same level as, if not lower than, the killers.  It's ghastly and backward when it goes as planned. Today's ghoulish circus was an outrage.  The American phobia for blood is, in this area, a perversion. A captive bolt in the head is humane for a steer in the slaughterhouse, why not for a condemned person?

Who else thinks Noory will lead with it tonight?

[Kelt]

The reporter who witnessed it counted the condenmed's gasps...660.  This insanity puts society on the same level as, if not lower than, the killers.  It's ghastly and backward when it goes as planned. Today's ghoulish circus was an outrage.  The American phobia for blood is, in this area, a perversion. A captive bolt in the head is humane for a steer in the slaughterhouse, why not for a condemned person?

Who else thinks Noory will lead with it tonight?

State sponsored murder shouldn't be part of civilised society.

To be fair, it generally isn't part of civilised society.

[Zoo]

Only Christians can be both pro-death penalty and pro-life and see nothing wrong with it. If we have killed one innocent man with the death penalty than we as a society should never kill another. For what we do to the lowest of are society shows are true colors of are society!!1

[b_dubb]

Only Christians can be both pro-death penalty and pro-life and see nothing wrong with it. If we have killed one innocent man with the death penalty than we as a society should never kill another. For what we do to the lowest of are society shows are true colors of are society!!1

And of course you don't have an axe grind here. 

Don't generalize.  Not all Christians are Young Earth Creationists.  Or Mormon. 

[Bart Ell]

Not all Christians are Young Earth Creationists. 

Don't you mean our?

[b_dubb]

Don't you mean our?

No I don't.

[Bart Ell]

Then I am lost and don't know what the two of you our up to.

[Zoo]

And of course you don't have an axe grind here. 

Don't generalize.  Not all Christians are Young Earth Creationists.  Or Mormon. 

I did not mean all and sorry if it came out that way. I do mean what I say about some of them being pro-life and pro-death penalty. And what I aslo said about society as a whole!!1
 

[DigitalPigSnuggler]

The reporter who witnessed it counted the condenmed's gasps...660.  This insanity puts society on the same level as, if not lower than, the killers.  It's ghastly and backward when it goes as planned. Today's ghoulish circus was an outrage.  The American phobia for blood is, in this area, a perversion. A captive bolt in the head is humane for a steer in the slaughterhouse, why not for a condemned person?

Both the electric chair and the gas chamber were offered as more humane methods of execution when they were introduced.  They failed to live up to their initial hype, and it seems that lethal injection is the same.  So maybe it is time to do away with lethal injection and go back to the former methods. 

I am rather curious about one point, though.  I have witnesses at least four dogs being put to sleep over the years.  In all cases, it took less than a minute.  The dogs had a deep sigh, then closed their eyes and died.  It was very peaceful, really.  Why is it that we can end the life of a dog in this way, but not a human?

[PB the Deplorable]

The reporter who witnessed it counted the condenmed's gasps...660...

Awwww

The only downside to this is the Libs will be out using it trying to get the death penalty banned.

Only Christians can be both pro-death penalty and pro-life and see nothing wrong with it...

Let me help you out. 

Some of us value life and are very much against killing it even in the womb.  And we take murders, certainty the most ghastly and disgusting, so seriously that if a person commits one, justice demands they should forfeit their own life. 

Agree or not, these concepts aren't really very hard to understand. 

Especially since one doesn't really have anything to do with the other.  I could just as easily wonder why the same people so invested in keeping these vicious murderers alive are so nonchalant when it comes to killing unborn babies

[albrecht]

It is bizarre that society had this idea that modernity would equal more humane. I can light my house with this new fangled electricity so it must be a good way to kill people! Or the chemical options. Likely, as suggested, the pneumatic bolt-gun to the back of the head would be better or the typical coup-de-gras ala pistol. Having said that im against the death penalty because I don't trust the government or judicial process to be fair or just all the time, so final solutions are questionable. If the guy was guilty Im not fretting over the delayed deaths tho. However I personally witnessed the heinous crime I wouldnt hesitate to demand it (or depending on circumstances quickly enact it.) Also, having said that, I dont know if I were a criminal if I would prefer it to a life in our horrible prison systems with the gangs, rape, etc.

[Kelt]

the Libs

Tidied that up for ya.

[The General]

Only Christians can be both pro-death penalty and pro-life and see nothing wrong with it.

The two stances are consistent.  They are both about protecting the innocent.
Only the morally confused can be anti death penalty and pro abortion.
And I'm not Christian.  Got any theories about what's wrong with me?

[HAL 9000]

State sponsored murder shouldn't be part of civilised society.

To be fair, it generally isn't part of civilised society.

Actually, civilized societies spell it with a "z." (Source: Oxford English Dictionary)

   

[onan]

From the little I have read recently, lethal injections are botched due to not using nurses or doctors to properly insert the needle. I read that in one case the needle was put in against the venous flow which helped cause an infiltration; thereby pooling the lethal concoction into muscle tissue.

The American Nursing Association has this to say:

The ANA is opposed to all forms of participation by nurses in capital punishment, by whatever means, whether under civil or military legal authority. Participation in capital punishment is inconsistent with the ethical precepts of justice, nonmaleficence, and beneficence, and the values and goals of the nursing profession.

The AMA has this to say:

The American Medical Association is troubled by continuous refusal of many state courts and legislatures to acknowledge the ethical obligations of physicians, which strictly prohibit physician involvement in a legally authorized execution. The AMA's policy is clear and unambiguous â€" requiring physicians to participate in executions violates their oath to protect lives and erodes public confidence in the medical profession.

All that being the case, untrained staff are performing procedures they are not qualified to do. We all know what happens when that happens.


I have never been able to separate justice from vengence when considering violent crimes. On an intellectual level I get the difference. If, however, it was my loved one... well, the courts would be deciding my fate rather than the perpetrator.

[Kelt]

Actually, civilized societies spell it with a "z." (Source: Oxford English Dictionary)

[DigitalPigSnuggler]

Only the morally confused can be anti death penalty and pro abortion.

Not necessarily.  I am in favor of a death penalty option for certain crimes, yet I am opposed to the death penalty because our criminal justice system is prone to making a substantial number of errors.  I served on a major case about ten years ago and was just aghast at how fickle the process could be.  Meanwhile, I am in favor of legalized abortion.  Moral confusion has nothing to do with it. 

Got any theories about what's wrong with me?

Oh, of course.

[HAL 9000]

From the little I have read recently, lethal injections are botched due to not using nurses or doctors to properly insert the needle. I read that in one case the needle was put in against the venous flow which helped cause an infiltration; thereby pooling the lethal concoction into muscle tissue.

I have researched this somewhat, so admittedly some of what I say may be incorrect, but my cursory research shows that: Only doctors, nurses, paramedics, or EMTs are allowed to insert the IV catheters and/or administer the drugs.

The American Nursing Association has this to say:

The ANA is opposed to all forms of participation by nurses in capital punishment, by whatever means, whether under civil or military legal authority. Participation in capital punishment is inconsistent with the ethical precepts of justice, nonmaleficence, and beneficence, and the values and goals of the nursing profession.

The AMA has this to say:

The American Medical Association is troubled by continuous refusal of many state courts and legislatures to acknowledge the ethical obligations of physicians, which strictly prohibit physician involvement in a legally authorized execution. The AMA's policy is clear and unambiguous â€" requiring physicians to participate in executions violates their oath to protect lives and erodes public confidence in the medical profession.

With respect to the AMA and ANA, I'll reference one of my previous posts regarding the AMA, and new information regarding the ANA.

I'll quote myself from a previous post:

Even the once-revered American Medical Association (AMA), often associated by the general public (erroneously) as something special that doctors were members of, has somewhat startling and somber news: after subtracting medical students and residents (doctors in training), membership by practicing physicians is around 15%. WTF? Yes, ~15%.

Yes folks - the number of practicing physicians who are members of the AMA is only ~15%! For some reason, a guy I know named Jack Shit comes to mind.

As to the American Nurses Association, it's even much worse. There are approximately 3.1 million nurses in the US; the ANA touts a membership of 145,790. WTF? Yes it is true - the ANA membership is 4.7% of the total number of licensed nurses.

What does this mean? Both organizations are essentially pay-to-join clubs, that act as a guilds, and/or lobbying groups for its members, specifically Congress. So conversely, it might be said that 85% of physicians, and 95.3% of nurses don't give a shit what these two organizations say, or at least are not willing to pay to join their "club" and be represented by these organizations.

My main point is that quoting the official position of "pay-for-membership" organizations may likely be in no way representative of the respective professionals as a whole. The only legitimate way to measure opinions of each profession would be to do well-researched polling, utilizing unbiased and thorough questions (I'd like to be part of the 'question(s)' selection process). Even if, for simplicity's sake, the polls showed 70% against, and 30% for lethal injection for capital punishment, 30% still remains a significant number of doctors and nurses.

If it were not for the possibility that my name might be leaked by government agencies or the press, I have in the past, considered offering my services about drug cocktails and their dosages; including starting IVs and administering the drugs. I, too, have my sensibilities about the topic -  I could only do it for the most heinous of crimes, which I realize might be intellectually incongruent. I also have spiritual inconsistencies; but I suspect that, given the right circumstances, I could participate in lethal injections for capital crimes.

As an aside, it is medicine's "dirty little secret" that, when taking someone off of life-support when death is imminent and family is present, we always assure the families that their loved one will not suffer; that we will keep them "comfortable." This is code for "we will keep the family comfortable" so they don't have to witness a patient gasping for air, or twitching, etc. for a lengthy period of time. It is not unusual that, drugs are administered, not at a "minimum" dose, but at a dose that actually hastens death, for the comfort of all involved.

If anyone needs an IV, just send a PM.

[Zoo]

Not necessarily.  I am in favor of a death penalty option for certain crimes, yet I am opposed to the death penalty because our criminal justice system is prone to making a substantial number of errors.  I served on a major case about ten years ago and was just aghast at how fickle the process could be.  Meanwhile, I am in favor of legalized abortion.  Moral confusion has nothing to do with it. 

Oh, of course.

Well in my opinion when men start having babies they can start telling women what to do with their bodies. When does life start before birth, after birth, conception, or sperm cells leaving the male body.(If it is sperm leaving the body then there's a lot of men who are murderers)
As for the death penalty when you are 100% sure they did it. I still say no.. Two wrongs do not make a right!!1

[Yorkshire pud]

As an aside, it is medicine's "dirty little secret" that, when taking someone off of life-support when death is imminent and family is present, we always assure the families that their loved one will not suffer; that we will keep them "comfortable." This is code for "we will keep the family comfortable" so they don't have to witness a patient gasping for air, or twitching, etc. for a lengthy period of time. It is not unusual that, drugs are administered, not at a "minimum" dose, but at a dose that actually hastens death, for the comfort of all involved.

The 'gasping for air' and 'twitching' isn't a reflection of the dying patient's consciousness though, but you know that. It's a reflex. I was married to a doctor and she told me that patients close to death on a morphine driver are unconscious, and always in very great pain (Hence the morphine); the driver is just turned up. It 'hastens' death but it wouldn't significantly add to their longevity not doing that, but it does significantly reduce their pain continuing.

The difference between that and murder via lethal injection, is that the chemicals used in lethal injection are at best experimental, and the person having them injected fully conscious with a great deal of adrenalin coursing through them. 

I used to be pro execution years ago..I changed my opinion pretty much instantly when the case of Stefan Kisco was unravelled. If we had capital punishment he'd have been killed. He was entirely innocent and stitched up by not only the police, but his shockingly incompetent barrister who went on to be a minister in Thatchers government.

The ex top honcho of Georgia who was in charge of executions is now on something of a crusade to get it outlawed. I think his views have to be respected considering he's been at the sharp end.

[phrodo]

Awwww

The only downside to this is the Libs will be out using it trying to get the death penalty banned.


Let me help you out. 

Some of us value life and are very much against killing it even in the womb.  And we take murders, certainty the most ghastly and disgusting, so seriously that if a person commits one, justice demands they should forfeit their own life. 

Agree or not, these concepts aren't really very hard to understand. 

Especially since one doesn't really have anything to do with the other.  I could just as easily wonder why the same people so invested in keeping these vicious murderers alive are so nonchalant when it comes to killing unborn babies

Exactly right Paper Boy. An unborn child has committed no crime and deserves the chance at life. The guilty criminal murderer has taken life for granted and terminated another human's life -- so why should they get upset about theirs ending??

And I don't see why executions should be painless and/or comfortable. It's highly unlikely that the murderers were thinking of their victim's comfort or level of pain when they were killing them. Eye for an eye....

[onan]

I used the AMA and the ANA as references. Yes they are a small percentage of doctors and nurses. But it is about the only group consensus that is easily found.

I didn't include EMT's or paramedics because I believe that is a state by state consideration, I could be wrong.

I can tell you that the NC board of nursing attempted to make it an actionable offense against a nursing license in 2008. They were unsuccessful due to legislative action or inaction... take your pick.

The AMA, isn't diminished by some nefarious reason, rather more and more docs are specializing and join their specific skill set association. Including pediatrics, psychiatry, and so on.

I am not going to try to reason with anyone that finds suffering to be insignificant (not pointing a finger at HAL). Ethics are what they are. Everyone licensed had to swear to a set of ethics that included doing no harm. If anyone gives their word then later backs away from that... well, there it is.

As I said previously, I get the difference, and if it were my family member that had suffered at the hand of another... hell would be paid. But that is different than being paid to turn my head and ignore the ethics I was sworn to uphold.

[Yorkshire pud]

Exactly right Paper Boy. An unborn child has committed no crime and deserves the chance at life.

No-one has said an unborn child has committed a crime. The circumstances however over if it 'deserves' life pertain to the mother within the regulations that have been arrived at-no-one else. What of catastrophic disability? What of rape? What if it would kill the mother to continue the pregnancy? What if it would psychologically harm the mother? What if the mother wasn't mentally able to continue the pregnancy?

The guilty criminal murderer has taken life for granted and terminated another human's life -- so why should they get upset about theirs ending??

What if they're later found to be innocent?

And I don't see why executions should be painless and/or comfortable. It's highly unlikely that the murderers were thinking of their victim's comfort or level of pain when they were killing them. Eye for an eye....

Again, what if they're innocent?

[ziznak]

I'm just pro death.   period.  We need more abortions and we need to put down the leeches of society.  Only murderers? fuck that.  Hang em high.  Agree on a standard definition for the hopeless career criminals and then either kill them or slingshot their asses into Mexico.  We could also use the slingshot for aborted fetuses... wait is it "fetuses" or "fetai?"

[Zoo]

Well then lets just nuke the planet and kill them all we might kill some innocent people but we will get all the bad ones!!1

[albrecht]

I'm against it due to the possible corruption or possible malfeasance of the judicial system, police, government, and even juries but if we are going to do it (and don't want to do it cheaper/easier with a coup de grace in the back of the head with a large caliber pistol or a pneumatic bolt-gun) and insist on lethal injection why not get some junkie or speed freak to administer? The problem often seems to be misplacement of needles. There are a heck of a lot of junkies or speed freaks serving prison time who are expert in injections. Give them some "good time" credit and let them inject those on death row. Problem solved.

[onan]

I'm against it due to the possible corruption or possible malfeasance of the judicial system, police, government, and even juries but if we are going to do it (and don't want to do it cheaper/easier with a coup de grace in the back of the head with a large caliber pistol or a pneumatic bolt-gun) and insist on lethal injection why not get some junkie or speed freak to administer? The problem often seems to be misplacement of needles. There are a heck of a lot of junkies or speed freaks serving prison time who are expert in injections. Give them some "good time" credit and let them inject those on death row. Problem solved.

You Sir, are making too much pragmatic sense... no one in authority will listen to you.

[Treading Water]

You Sir, are making too much pragmatic sense... no one in authority will listen to you.

Ha, I agree.  But I think she's a dude-ette.     :

[Kelt]

The death penalty is barbaric, but I'm not against the notion of taking those whose actions show they have no interest in actiing in a social manner and dumping them on an island inside the Arctic Circle.

There they can forge a new society, or non-society, where the murderers, career criminals, Rangers fans, rapists, and assorted shitbags of various ilks can rape, murder, bugger, and shitbag to their heart's content, away from those of us who do act in a social manner.

Total fiscal burden on the taxpayer?

The cost of a boat-ride to Kelt Island.

I call it Kelt Island.

[Yorkshire pud]

The death penalty is barbaric, but I'm not against the notion of taking those whose actions show they have no interest in actiing in a social manner and dumping them on an island inside the Arctic Circle.

There they can forge a new society, or non-society, where the murderers, career criminals, Rangers fans, rapists, and assorted shitbags of various ilks can rape, murder, bugger, and shitbag to their heart's content, away from those of us who do act in a social manner.

Total fiscal burden on the taxpayer?

The cost of a boat-ride to Kelt Island.

I call it Kelt Island.

Where? In the Hebrides? Between Lewis and Skye? Further out nearer Rockall? Or between Shetland and Orkney? Salmond will be panting to make the first speech from it.