ISIS

[PB the Deplorable]

Obama is in a no win situation with this one....

That doesn't mean there aren't better and worse ideas, going forward.  He ran for President fully aware of what he would be dealing with in Iraq and in Afghanistan, so there was at least a tacit claim he would know what he was doing and be up to the task. 

But the way Obama had us leave Iraq, and the way he is hollowing out our military, and all the rest of his little disasters around the globe demonstrate either his incompetence or his intentional destructiveness.

He's already refused to sell attack helicopters to Egypt to use to fight al-Qaeda in the Sinai.  He refused to sell weapons requested by the Ukraine to defend themselves against Russia.  Now he's refusing to sell weapons to the Kurds so they can defend themselves against ISIS.

This Administration can't end soon enough.

[Yorkshire pud]

That doesn't mean there aren't better and worse ideas, going forward.  He ran for President fully aware of what he would be dealing with in Iraq and in Afghanistan, so there was at least a tacit claim he would know what he was doing and be up to the task. 

But the way Obama had us leave Iraq, and the way he is hollowing out our military, and all the rest of his little disasters around the globe demonstrate either his incompetence or his intentional destructiveness.

He's already refused to sell attack helicopters to Egypt to use to fight al-Qaeda in the Sinai.  He refused to sell weapons requested by the Ukraine to defend themselves against Russia.  Now he's refusing to sell weapons to the Kurds so they can defend themselves against ISIS.

This Administration can't end soon enough.

Hindsight is such a perfect science don't you find?

[PB the Deplorable]

Hindsight is such a perfect science don't you find?

Is it really hindsight when we think he's making wrong decisions as they happen?

[VtaGeezer]

Obama supported, funded, and provided arms to ISIS and didn't mind atrocities against Christians and other Muslim sects in Syria (or indeed in other areas where he encouraged "arab spring" radicals.

This is a baldfaced lie.  In fact, Obama backed away from any direct support of Syrian insurgents precisely because ISIS and AQ had become major segments of that insurgency.   Until recent weeks, ISIL had no investment in North Africa where the "Arab Spring" unfolded.  You're not a stupid person; why have you built so distorted a world view from the most extremist drivel and fabrications? 

[Yorkshire pud]

Is it really hindsight when we think he's making wrong decisions as they happen?

Obama doesn't run the world. He's learned from his predecessor about pouring arms into areas that are volatile already. And simply saying 'supply this basketcase country with this weapon' isn't that simple. It isn't like assembling flat pack furniture. I can see the headlines on these pages 'Obama is feeding the war mongers with arms they don't know how to use'.

The situation is far more complex than even the best military analysts could possibly predict. To simply say he's making the 'wrong decision' is wildly speculative and probably wrong. We don't have the information that the western leaders have, and even that is changing day by day, in some cases, by the hour.

[The General]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKSb2ukQxvY

[Yorkshire pud]

Yeah...Funny that...This is 2003.

[FightTheFuture]

A couple of things come to mind:

The Obama administration`s complete non-interest in negotiating a solid SOFA with Iraq. We should have at least 30K combat troops still in Iraq. If Obama had shown just a little interest in coming to some agreeable terms with Iraq, these thuggish  7th century throwbacks wouldn`t even exist.

And don`t blame it on the spooks. They knew all about it. But there`s a difference between not knowing, and not caring. Their boss (That would be his highness, Caesar Obamus) didn`t care, so the intel folks also didn`t much care.

However, Obamas biggest blunder, AND quite possibly the most catastrophic foreign policy screw-up of the last 100 years, is his complete botching of Iran`s Green Movement IN 2009.

Iran was on it`s knees. The government was starting to crack under the sanctions. The Green movement was burning up social media BEGGING for some support from the West (meaning, the USA). What does Obama, do?? He lifts the sanctions, throws the protesters under the bus, and renders comfort and aide to the enemy, in the form of BILLIONS OF DOLLARS to the Mullahs, in return for some fairytale nuclear agreement, not worth the paper  Hassan Rouhani wipes his ass with.

That whole region could be 100% better, were it not for the idiot currently occupying the White House.

[The General]

Bush and Obama - both grossly incompetent and inexperienced.
The sad thing is that America has lost her ability to even produce a viable candidate for president.
This is what we'll get as long as we keep electing the lowest common denominator.

[Yorkshire pud]

Bush and Obama - both grossly incompetent and inexperienced.
The sad thing is that America has lost her ability to even produce a viable candidate for president.
This is what we'll get as long as we keep electing the lowest common denominator.

As I keep reminding people on here; is it not so that anyone American can be put forward for the post? I think the main problem (and it's getting like that here too) is it's a sponsorship contest. Who can get more dollars off corporate companies than the next guy. That isn't democracy, that's prostitution. Selling your soul to the devil who will absolutely want a return on their investment. That leaves the poor saps who go and vote, bless em. How many of the eligible electorate actually vote?

[The General]

As I keep reminding people on here; is it not so that anyone American can be put forward for the post? I think the main problem (and it's getting like that here too) is it's a sponsorship contest. Who can get more dollars off corporate companies than the next guy. That isn't democracy, that's prostitution. Selling your soul to the devil who will absolutely want a return on their investment. That leaves the poor saps who go and vote, bless em. How many of the eligible electorate actually vote?

I hear ya.  It's a bad, bad situation.

[Yorkshire pud]

I hear ya.  It's a bad, bad situation.

Pure coincidence I see this is on the BBC pages:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28669946

[The General]

Pure coincidence I see this is on the BBC pages:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28669946

God Bless Eisenhower. 
Can you imagine if we had a president like that now? 
Oh man, high cotton.

[VtaGeezer]

God Bless Eisenhower. 
Can you imagine if we had a president like that now? 
Oh man, high cotton.

Not so fast.  Ike fucked up some big stuff pretty good. Google Suez Crisis, Fidel Castro, Mosaddagh, Sputnik.  We're still paying heavily for 3/4 of those.  He was an superb manager and good politician but no superman. 

[The General]

Not so fast.  Ike fucked up some big stuff pretty good. Google Suez Crisis, Fidel Castro, Mosaddagh, Sputnik.  We're still paying heavily for 3/4 of those.  He was an superb manager and good politician but no superman.

Compared to what we've been dealing with my entire life, he was.

[VtaGeezer]

That whole region could be 100% better, were it not for the idiot currently occupying the White House.

This could have been said any time in the past 65 years. 

Obama is no FDR, but he inherited generations of disastrous American policy in the Mideast including the two longest wars in American history; one based on what should have been criminal malfeasance by Bush and his keeper, Cheney.  The ISIL Crisis is a direct product of conservative hubris and denial, and an obstructionist partisan GOP that would gleefully see people die so they could tell their base that Obama did it.  Politics used to end "at the water's edge"; not for today's right.

[b_dubb]

Yeah...Funny that...This is 2003.

What a drug, alcohol and privilege addled twat.  Fuck him and his asshole demon friends.

[PB the Deplorable]

...  Politics used to end "at the water's edge"; not for today's right.

I think that began in the 80s, with the Democrats trying to strangle Reagan's policies against Soviet/Cuban support for Marxist rebels in Nicaragua and El Salvador, and places like Grenada. 

[PB the Deplorable]

Obama doesn't run the world. He's learned from his predecessor about pouring arms into areas that are volatile already. And simply saying 'supply this basketcase country with this weapon' isn't that simple. It isn't like assembling flat pack furniture. I can see the headlines on these pages 'Obama is feeding the war mongers with arms they don't know how to use'.

The situation is far more complex than even the best military analysts could possibly predict. To simply say he's making the 'wrong decision' is wildly speculative and probably wrong. We don't have the information that the western leaders have, and even that is changing day by day, in some cases, by the hour.

It's about his world view.  His is wrong, meaning he's going to make mostly horrible decisions.  And clearly, he has.

[PB the Deplorable]

This is a baldfaced lie.  In fact, Obama backed away from any direct support of Syrian insurgents precisely because ISIS and AQ had become major segments of that insurgency.   Until recent weeks, ISIL had no investment in North Africa where the "Arab Spring" unfolded.  You're not a stupid person; why have you built so distorted a world view from the most extremist drivel and fabrications?

The Moslem Brotherhood has been around for nearly 100 years.  Hamas is a branch of the MB.  CAIR is the US propaganda arm of Hamas.  Al-Qaeda was founded by a member of the MB.  ISIS is an offshoot of al-Qaeda.

It was the MB who assassinated Anwar Sadat. 

Obama has welcomed Cair and members of the MB to the White House on dozens of occasions.  He clearly supports Hamas against Israel.  Sec State Hilary Clintons top advisor on Arab issues was likely a MB member.  There are a half dozen other members of the MB in high ranking positions in the State Dept, and the Dept of Homeland Security.

Obama supported the MB when they seized Egypt, and is currently punishing the Egyptian military for taking their country back (just recently, he cut them out of the negotiations between Hamas and Israel and replaced them with the Hamas supporters in Qatar)

It appears at least part of what was going on at the Embassy in Benghazi was support for the al-Qaeda aligned rebels in Libya, and the transfer of weapons to al-Qaeda aligned rebels in Syria.  He tried to support those same Syrian rebels by having the US Navy and Air Force bomb Syrian targets on their behalf, until the people of this country stood up and said NO.

If Obama isn't a member of the MB, he may as well be.


The LA Times has a video in it's vault of Obama speaking at Professor Rashid Khalidi's going away party when he left University of Chicago for Columbia.  He was a close friend of Obama's at least at the time, and likely to this day.  This guy is an outspoken supporter of Hamas, and an all around unpleasant fellow when it comes to these Islamic Jihadi groups. 

The LA Times refuses to release that video.  I wonder why that is.  I'd sure like to know what Obama said in praise of this spokes-piece for Hamas, wouldn't you?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WlqW6UCeaY

[albrecht]

The Moslem Brotherhood has been around for nearly 100 years.  Hamas is a branch of the MB.  CAIR is the US propaganda arm of Hamas.  Al-Qaeda was founded by a member of the MB.  ISIS is an offshoot of al-Qaeda.

It was the MB who assassinated Anwar Sadat. 

Obama has welcomed Cair and members of the MB to the White House on dozens of occasions.  He clearly supports Hamas against Israel.  Sec State Hilary Clintons top advisor on Arab issues was likely a MB member.  There are a half dozen other members of the MB in high ranking positions in the State Dept, and the Dept of Homeland Security.

Obama supported the MB when they seized Egypt, and is currently punishing the Egyptian military for taking their country back (just recently, he cut them out of the negotiations between Hamas and Israel and replaced them with the Hamas supporters in Qatar)

It appears at least part of what was going on at the Embassy in Benghazi was support for the al-Qaeda aligned rebels in Libya, and the transfer of weapons to al-Qaeda aligned rebels in Syria.  He tried to support those same Syrian rebels by having the US Navy and Air Force bomb Syrian targets on their behalf, until the people of this country stood up and said NO.

If Obama isn't a member of the MB, he may as well be.


The LA Times has a video in it's vault of Obama speaking at Professor Rashid Khalidi's going away party when he left University of Chicago for Columbia.  He was a close friend of Obama's at least at the time, and likely to this day.  This guy is an outspoken supporter of Hamas, and an all around unpleasant fellow when it comes to these Islamic Jihadi groups. 

The LA Times refuses to release that video.  I wonder why that is.  I'd sure like to know what Obama said in praise of this spokes-piece for Hamas, wouldn't you?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WlqW6UCeaY

I seem recall another Khalidi, formerly Don Warden, named Khalid Al-Mansour, a black nationalist and Muslim-convert, who supposedly, according to democrat Manhattan Borough president Percy Sutton, was an adviser to Saudi Prince Alwaleed bin Talal who funded Obama's education. And this is one reason why Obama spends so much money on lawyers to not release any of his documentation as a student. Who knows if this is true but it is odd how hesitant he is to release any documents and seems to fight even for the most basic of records. And considering his other friends, mentors, and supporters I could easily believe it. I saw just the other day MSNBC, hardly a right-wing network, said Obama was Kenyan born! I never believed that theory, but it is interesting how even a very, very pro-Obama network says things like this:

MSNBC reporter Chris Jansing claimed President Barack Obama’s keen interest in this week’s African leadership summit stems from the fact that “he’s from Kenya” â€" an assertion that took over ten minutes for her to reverse.

Jansing spoke to MSNBC’s Joy Reid about the ongoing meeting of American and African leaders in Washington D.C. “The White House is clearly, I would assume, hoping this will be part of the president’s legacy, given his background,” Reid said.

“Yeah, the fact that he’s from Kenya,” Jansing replied breezily. “And the fact that when he was elected there were expectations on the African continent that he would do great things for them.”
http://dailycaller.com/2014/08/05/msnbc-reporter-accidentally-claims-obama-is-from-kenya-video/#ixzz39qkwqyBF

[Quick Karl]

The liberal left is living proof that Mother Nature can fuck things up, badly...

Think of it as a sort of bubonic plague -- once normal people figure out where the disease is coming from we can abate it and life can return to normal.

Liberal fantasy thinking and invented history & reality is a plague of the human mind.

[VtaGeezer]

The Moslem Brotherhood has been around for nearly 100 years.  Hamas is a branch of the MB.  CAIR is the US propaganda arm of Hamas.  Al-Qaeda was founded by a member of the MB.  ISIS is an offshoot of al-Qaeda.

It was the MB who assassinated Anwar Sadat. 

Blah
Blah
Blah

More of your ideology-by-innuendo and changing of the subject.  WTF...the MB has millions of members.  Ben Laden was also a Saudi...actually a Yemeni.  And he came from a tribe.  And he was Child #17 of 50-some.  So fucking what?  I can no doubt find a grand humanitarian with the same pedigree. Where's your evidence that President Obama supported ISIL as you said.  Its obscene to make such a false accusation.  Most of your positions are delusions rooted in obtuse twisting of selective facts so you can act the condescending all-knower; the ideological equivalent of Robert Hoagland's planetary "science".

Be honest about the evolution of ISIL...it was a post-invasion anti-US insurgency in Iraq before it's founder al-Zarqawi linked with AQ.

[Uncle Duke]

I don't talk politics here (except from a historical perspective--Great post about Ike and Suez by the way, VtaGeezer.  What a different world we'd live in to day had the Brits/French/Israelis been permitted to finish what they started in 1956), not important whether I agree or disagree with Obama's political decision to launch air strikes in Iraq against ISIS (or whatever we're calling them today).  He has the authority, and the attacks are happening.

What I do find surprising is the fact we are sending manned warplanes to hit the targets the US has identified as threats.  Yes, I know drones are being used, but if the media is correct, so are F/A-18s.  Navy fighter-bombers, almost certainly carrier-based.  That brings into question if any of our "allies" in the area allowed the launch of warplanes from their territory?  Not a problem, as long as the carriers are there, it makes no difference who's allowing us to use their airfields, right?

So what happens if one of our Hornets runs into the proverbial "golden BB" during these strikes, or has a "mechanical failure" (wink, wink) like our Strike Eagle did in Libya?  Where is the CSAR team whose job it is to go get those guys?  Sitting on helipad on a carrier or LPD/H?  Long flight by helo, or even Osprey.  On an Iraqi airbase in the region?  Maybe, but puts them at risk, especially after PotUS' big play on getting US forces out of Iraq in the first place.  Or are there Delta, SEAL, or even SAS-types hiding out there somewhere to rescue downed airman?  Possible, but again dangerous.  Where ever the CSAR team is, they damn well better be fast, lethal, and aggressive.

If we are to believe the media, these ISIS guys are a nasty lot.  If they are slaughtering Christians and Yazidis over religious differences, what do you suppose they'd do to an ejected US airman (or woman) who just dropped a 500lb bomb on them?  These seem like the kind of guys who'd live satellite uplink the beheading of a USN pilot without a second thought. 

Bottom line--Has Obama thought this part of the action, use of manned warplanes, through completely?  Who remember the photos of abused PoWs like Zahn, Hunter, and Cornum (female helo pilot, raped multiple times by Iraqis) from Desert Storm?  Seeing ISIS beheading a USN pilot, male or female, is going to drive Obama to put US forces back in Iraq.

Is he getting bad advice, or ignoring good advice to get the US boots back on the ground there after realizing he took US ground forces out to quickly?

[VtaGeezer]

We're certainly not getting all the details.  I heard a report that there's been an Apache unit at the Baghdad airport to protect the 300 new advisors.  I'd imagine there are CSAR units in Irbil or nearby in Turkey...though Turkey has proven to be the ally that's never there.

[Uncle Duke]

We're certainly not getting all the details.  I heard a report that there's been an Apache unit at the Baghdad airport to protect the 300 new advisors.  I'd imagine there are CSAR units in Irbil or nearby in Turkey...though Turkey has proven to be the ally that's never there.

Agree on Turkey, worthless over the past decade.  Apaches in Bagdad?  Makes sense, but of course Apaches are gunships, capable of covering a rescue, but not undetaking a rescue.  Makes sense there are CSAR units with the Apaches if they are in Bagdad, if we are willing to assume the risk.  Still, an ejected pilot, especially an injuried one, is going to have a tough time doing E&E in that part of the world.  Flight time of a helo rescue force from Bagdad to the the strike area?  Probably shorter than from a carrier or "gator", but by what margin?  If a rescue force isn't standing by on-scene, I don't like the guy's/gal's chances.

Use drones or long-range stand-off weapons from strategic platforms, the problem goes away.  I'll defer to the those who've "been there, done that" like Fight the Future, but this old boffin is scratching his (sadly) bald head.

[PB the Deplorable]

More of your ideology-by-innuendo and changing of the subject.  WTF...the MB has millions of members.  Ben Laden was also a Saudi...actually a Yemeni.  And he came from a tribe.  And he was Child #17 of 50-some.  So fucking what?  I can no doubt find a grand humanitarian with the same pedigree. Where's your evidence that President Obama supported ISIL as you said.  Its obscene to make such a false accusation.  Most of your positions are delusions rooted in obtuse twisting of selective facts so you can act the condescending all-knower; the ideological equivalent of Robert Hoagland's planetary "science".

Be honest about the evolution of ISIL...it was a post-invasion anti-US insurgency in Iraq before it's founder al-Zarqawi linked with AQ.

Imagine what Big Media would do if a Republican US President had connections with people like Bill Ayres, Bernadette Dohrn, Jeremiah Wright, Rashid Khalidi, and all the rest of those rat bastards.  Or had CAIR and the Muslim Brotherhood visit the White House hundreds of times.  Or was cozying up to them while stiffing the leader of Israel during a war.

But it's Obama, so ho-hum, move along.


By the way, the al-Qaeda founder who was a member of the Muslim Brotherhood wasn't bin Laden, it was Ayman al-Zawahiri

[FightTheFuture]

Agree on Turkey, worthless over the past decade.  Apaches in Bagdad?  Makes sense, but of course Apaches are gunships, capable of covering a rescue, but not undetaking a rescue.  Makes sense there are CSAR units with the Apaches if they are in Bagdad, if we are willing to assume the risk.  Still, an ejected pilot, especially an injuried one, is going to have a tough time doing E&E in that part of the world.  Flight time of a helo rescue force from Bagdad to the the strike area?  Probably shorter than from a carrier or "gator", but by what margin?  If a rescue force isn't standing by on-scene, I don't like the guy's/gal's chances.

Use drones or long-range stand-off weapons from strategic platforms, the problem goes away.  I'll defer to the those who've "been there, done that" like Fight the Future, but this old boffin is scratching his (sadly) bald head.

All excellent observations, Duke. 

I would assume any air recovery would come from the carrier group. Depending on the logistics of the operation, they may already actually be in the air as the air strikes are taking place. Keep in mind, we now have a healthy number of special operators in that area, near the Northern city of Irbil. They could play a role in recovery if called upon.

The good news is, the odds of ISIL knocking  an F/A-18 out of the air is slim to none, and slim has the flu.

[FightTheFuture]

Addendum to my previous post...

From what I am reading and hearing, we are launching pin prick strikes. That's not going to make a substantial difference. What is called for, is a comprehensive joint air campaign. Perhaps we even put a shore some of our Marine Expeditionary Force.

This ISIL group is a cancer, and right now, it does no good to quibble over  it's genesis. It needs to be burned, cut, and eradicated from existence. Launching four carrier based F/A-18 s is not going to do it.

[Uncle Duke]

All excellent observations, Duke. 

I would assume any air recovery would come from the carrier group. Depending on the logistics of the operation, they may already actually be in the air as the air strikes are taking place. Keep in mind, we now have a healthy number of special operators in that area, near the Northern city of Irbil. They could play a role in recovery if called upon.

The good news is, the odds of ISIL knocking  an F/A-18 out of the air is slim to none, and slim has the flu.

I think the presence of SF as a CSAR asset would be the best bet, just not sure this adminstration would make that happen with US forces in Iraq.  Other nations might be a bit more forthcoming in support of such efforts, at least we can hope.

Sure, you can launch shipboard CSAR forces betting on the come, but if you don't have tankers available to aerially refuel the helos and/or Ospreys in the event of a delay or something going south, those CSAR assets will have to go back to the ship.  Since KC-130s and/or MC-130s require regional, if not local air fields to operate in such an operation, not sure how available they'd be.

Agreed, a Super Hornet is pretty safe against what ISIS can bring to bear, but that's where the "golden BB" comes into play.  Remember those F-111s being brought down over NV by SKSs and Mosin-Nagants, and the F-117 being shot down over the Balkins by (redacted).  And there is always the "mechanical failure" (snicker) that took down the F-15E over Libya.  Regardless how they go down, if we can't get to them straight away, Obama is going to have to address the American people about the beheading (or worse) on live satellite feed of American aircrew.  If the American people have any balls, that's going to escalate things pretty quickly.  As I hinted earlier, that may be what Obama wants, to get US boots back on the ground in Iraq after hastily pulling our forces.