Author Sgt Bergdahl comes home (finally)  (Read 24954 times)

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Re: Sgt Bergdahl comes home (finally)
« Reply #90 on: June 02, 2014, 11:04:08 AM »
trai·tor
ˈtrātər/Submit
noun
a person who betrays a friend, country, principle, etc.

I'd say willfully leaving your post to seek out the Taliban--your enemy--and leaving your comrades in arms short handed at a combat outpost (after saying you're ashamed to be an American and don't have any faith in your country or military), labels you a traitor.

But to each his own.
Better look up "betray".  No evidence or mention of betrayal of his unit or mission.   A traitor is one who commits treason, which for Americans is defined in Art 2 Sec 3 of the Constitution: "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court."

I've seen nothing that even hints that Bergdahl intended to "seek out the Taliban".   There's AWOL, desertion, and way up the scale,  treason.  I have no problem calling him a deserter.  As I said, I believe use of words should reflect their meanings.  It looks like he was raised as a idealist free spirit with little emphasis on a real world environment.  He wrote to his father about his issues with his assignment and unit, and idealistic Dad told him that he should follow his conscience.  I don't think that was sound fatherly advice to give an idealistic kid relatively new in a stressful combat situation. Bergdahl is a big boy and should face consequences, but he also had a jerk for an NCO who effectively told him to go ahead and take off, just leave his gear.

Re: Sgt Bergdahl comes home (finally)
« Reply #91 on: June 02, 2014, 11:08:29 AM »
Just because he's a fucking idiot, doesn't make him any less American.
In today's context, it makes him even more American.

Re: Sgt Bergdahl comes home (finally)
« Reply #92 on: June 02, 2014, 11:09:48 AM »
Better look up "betray".  No evidence or mention of betrayal of his unit or mission.   A traitor is one who commits treason, which for Americans is defined in Art 2 Sec 3 of the Constitution: "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court."

I've seen nothing that even hints that Bergdahl intended to "seek out the Taliban".   There's AWOL, desertion, and way up the scale,  treason.  I have no problem calling him a deserter.  As I said, I believe use of words should reflect their meanings.  It looks like he was raised as a idealist free spirit with little emphasis on a real world environment.  He wrote to his father about his issues with his assignment and unit, and idealistic Dad told him that he should follow his conscience.  I don't think that was sound fatherly advice to give an idealistic kid relatively new in a stressful combat situation. Bergdahl is a big boy and should face consequences, but he also had a jerk for an NCO who effectively told him to go ahead and take off, just leave his gear.

I'm not going to sit here and split hairs with you.  Did you not read any of the articles I posted?  Afghani children reported seeing him low crawling through brush and asking where the Taliban was.

And his NCO absolutely did NOT tell him to go ahead and take off.


Re: Sgt Bergdahl comes home (finally)
« Reply #93 on: June 02, 2014, 11:16:56 AM »
Never asked for help.  Never brought anything to the attention of his superiors.  Never told anyone but dad that he was unhappy.  Never asked to go home.  Never talked anything out with his peers.


What do you suggest he say to his superiors? "Please sir, you're running this whole war the wrong way"?  I know enough about the military that you get your head down, or you get out. It's why depression is rife with ex soldiers. They see and experience things they cannot show weakness about to anyone. They take it all inside and then when they come home (if they come home) they get into fights, they can't let it go, they turn to drugs, they end up homeless because the family they loved and who loved them cannot cope any more.. THAT is what war does,

Quote
In a sense, Bowe represents a threat to anyone who wants to see the war continue – be they Taliban militants or Pentagon generals. Once the last American POW is released, there will be few obstacles standing in the way of a negotiated settlement. "It's the hard-liners on both sides who want to keep this thing going," says a White House official. "The Taliban is struggling with its own hard-liners. They need space, and this confidence-building measure could give them space."

Matthew Farwell, a former soldier who deployed to Afghanistan, contributed additional reporting to this story.

This is from the June 21st, 2012 issue of Rolling Stone.

Re: Sgt Bergdahl comes home (finally)
« Reply #94 on: June 02, 2014, 11:17:06 AM »
Never asked for help.  Never brought anything to the attention of his superiors.  Never told anyone but dad that he was unhappy.  Never asked to go home.  Never talked anything out with his peers.
I'd say asking his NCO if he should take his gear if he went AWOL was an "I've got a big-ass problem" statement.  Though Bergdahl made his own choice, that NCO is also at the center of this mess.

Re: Sgt Bergdahl comes home (finally)
« Reply #95 on: June 02, 2014, 11:42:51 AM »
How about, we give the guy the chance to actually step foot back in the US, and listen to what he has to say, THEN rush to condemn him?

Re: Sgt Bergdahl comes home (finally)
« Reply #96 on: June 02, 2014, 11:46:08 AM »
How about, we give the guy the chance to actually step foot back in the US, and listen to what he has to say, THEN rush to condemn him?

Why? He didn't arrange to overthrow your President. Now that's worthy of real condemnation, but you supported it.

Re: Sgt Bergdahl comes home (finally)
« Reply #97 on: June 02, 2014, 12:07:21 PM »

What do you suggest he say to his superiors? "Please sir, you're running this whole war the wrong way"?  I know enough about the military that you get your head down, or you get out. It's why depression is rife with ex soldiers. They see and experience things they cannot show weakness about to anyone. They take it all inside and then when they come home (if they come home) they get into fights, they can't let it go, they turn to drugs, they end up homeless because the family they loved and who loved them cannot cope any more.. THAT is what war does,

More often than not if someone comes up and starts barfing all of that, explaining that they're jaded and depressed, their gun will be taken from them and they will be removed from any combat role.

Re: Sgt Bergdahl comes home (finally)
« Reply #98 on: June 02, 2014, 12:30:14 PM »
tea, badminton and no meat? Sounds like he was torturing himself.

Re: Sgt Bergdahl comes home (finally)
« Reply #99 on: June 02, 2014, 12:38:44 PM »
More often than not if someone comes up and starts barfing all of that, explaining that they're jaded and depressed, their gun will be taken from them and they will be removed from any combat role.

I remember the ex OC of the UK contingent in Bosnia (Now an MP) saying when asked the question in a radio interview: "What is your view of desertion and how do you deal with it?"

It related to the invasion of Afghanistan, and the mood of not being overwhelmingly supported (by most people) and the possibility of some soldiers not wanting to participate.

"If a soldier came to me and said he no longer supported the mission I'd have him on the next plane back to the UK. No argument, no debate. He's a danger to himself and everyone else around him"

The thing is though, in spite of what some here are intimating: It takes a lot of strength to admit to the guys you maybe went through training with, sleep in the same tent with, eat with, shit in the same pot with, that 'Sorry guys, I'm not up to this shit now. I don't like what we're doing in the name of 'freedom'.

I for one don't condone what he did; I don't think he's a traitor. If he was he'd have brought the Taliban back to kill his buddies or at least tell them stuff to give them away. There's no evidence to say he did.. In the link he's cited as fighting off five Taliban blokes trying to escape and afterwards was kept in chains.

The most revolting reference is the cunt on Fox (where else?) calling for his execution when he was still missing.

Re: Sgt Bergdahl comes home (finally)
« Reply #100 on: June 02, 2014, 12:48:26 PM »
I remember the ex OC of the UK contingent in Bosnia (Now an MP) saying when asked the question in a radio interview: "What is your view of desertion and how do you deal with it?"

It related to the invasion of Afghanistan, and the mood of not being overwhelmingly supported (by most people) and the possibility of some soldiers not wanting to participate.

"If a soldier came to me and said he no longer supported the mission I'd have him on the next plane back to the UK. No argument, no debate. He's a danger to himself and everyone else around him"

The thing is though, in spite of what some here are intimating: It takes a lot of strength to admit to the guys you maybe went through training with, sleep in the same tent with, eat with, shit in the same pot with, that 'Sorry guys, I'm not up to this shit now. I don't like what we're doing in the name of 'freedom'.

I for one don't condone what he did; I don't think he's a traitor. If he was he'd have brought the Taliban back to kill his buddies or at least tell them stuff to give them away. There's no evidence to say he did.. In the link he's cited as fighting off five Taliban blokes trying to escape and afterwards was kept in chains.

The most revolting reference is the cunt on Fox (where else?) calling for his execution when he was still missing.

I can't imagine that it'd be easy by any stretch of the imagination to sack up and admit that he's not into it anymore.  But the fact is, is that the opportunity was there for him to at least speak before concocting a plan to walk away.

I suppose our definitions or opinions on "traitor" will remain contrasting.  I look at it from the standpoint that fellow service members were killed in action while specifically tasked with a mission of trying to locate Bergdahl.  Specific operations were put into place to find him.  Had Bergdahl not deserted his unit, those soldiers would not have been placed in that situation.  Period.  I believe the total toll is six men KIA while on said missions.

Who knows about the Taliban fight story--I don't really care.  I never saw a video with a gun to his head or him shackled down.  I did see videos to the contrary, speaking out about the U.S. leaving Afghanistan and eating their food with a nice full beard.

I also don't think he should be executed for this.  I do, however, demand accountability.

Re: Sgt Bergdahl comes home (finally)
« Reply #101 on: June 02, 2014, 01:08:04 PM »
I did see videos to the contrary, speaking out about the U.S. leaving Afghanistan and eating their food with a nice full beard.
.

Oh you don't think that just have been propaganda then? You know: "say these words soldier boy or we'll feed your cock to you, and follow it up with a beheading posted on YT"

Yeah...that might be it.  ::)

Re: Sgt Bergdahl comes home (finally)
« Reply #102 on: June 02, 2014, 01:43:24 PM »
Oh you don't think that just have been propaganda then? You know: "say these words soldier boy or we'll feed your cock to you, and follow it up with a beheading posted on YT"

Yeah...that might be it.  ::)

Where's the fear?  Where's the thousand yard stare?  Where's the discrediting of the video?

Granted Bergdahl never went through any kind of SERE training whatsoever but there doesn't seem to be a lot of indications that he had it so rough with his captors.

Again, pure speculation on my part.

Re: Sgt Bergdahl comes home (finally)
« Reply #103 on: June 02, 2014, 01:48:47 PM »
Where's the fear?  Where's the thousand yard stare?  Where's the discrediting of the video?

Granted Bergdahl never went through any kind of SERE training whatsoever but there doesn't seem to be a lot of indications that he had it so rough with his captors.

Again, pure speculation on my part.

Because he hasn't or doesn't behave the way you think he should, doesn't make him a traitor or a Taliban sympathiser. He's on record as saying he felt for the plight of the Afghan people, but that isn't the same thing.

There isn't a right or wrong way to behave (to the target audience) when you're a hostage in a video, you do as you're fucking told. If you get it right, you might not get a bullet in your head.
It isn't a movie..He hasn't the opportunity to call a break and go to his trailer for a beer..It's real. You should read up about such situations. It ranges from rage, to despair, to helplessness, to more anger, to pathos, to feelings of suicide and back to rage. In one day.

Re: Sgt Bergdahl comes home (finally)
« Reply #104 on: June 02, 2014, 01:52:06 PM »
Because he hasn't or doesn't behave the way you think he should, doesn't make him a traitor or a Taliban sympathiser. He's on record as saying he felt for the plight of the Afghan people, but that isn't the same thing.

There isn't a right or wrong way to behave when you're a hostage in a video, you do as you're fucking told. If you get it right, you might not get a bullet in your head.

Given all the other circumstances, I unfortunately can't go along with that thought process.  But that's my opinion and speculation.

I'll be the first one to retract all my claims and statements if it turns out that this guy was a legitimate POW.  Unfortunately it doesn't look like that's going to be the case.

Unless he turns out to be like Brody on Homeland.

Re: Sgt Bergdahl comes home (finally)
« Reply #105 on: June 02, 2014, 01:58:13 PM »

It isn't a movie..He hasn't the opportunity to call a break and go to his trailer for a beer..It's real. You should read up about such situations. It ranges from rage, to despair, to helplessness, to more anger, to pathos, to feelings of suicide and back to rage. In one day.

Again, I might tend to agree with you and have a little sympathy if he didn't walk off his fucking post and desert his comrades--like they're all coming out and saying.

I know all about the cycle and process of captivity.  Maybe he shouldn't have given up faith in his country and his companions before he left the relative safety of his base.

Re: Sgt Bergdahl comes home (finally)
« Reply #106 on: June 02, 2014, 02:01:47 PM »
if it turns out that this guy was a legitimate POW.

Well, the war isn't legitmate, so the standard he'll have to reach is absurdly low. Does he still get the "innocent until proven guilty in a court of law" thing? Maybe he got a vaccine for that.

I was going to respond to your other points in your posts, but I can see you're all caught up in your discussion with your intellectual equal, so I'll leave you two cats to it. Ciao.

How about, we give the guy the chance to actually step foot back in the US, and listen to what he has to say, THEN rush to condemn him?

That won't work for those with the clear agenda to discredit whatever the hell he might have to say. Just turn your laser eye beams back on, and cook him where he sits. MaybeOf course there's a chopper that is already scheduled to go down that they can put him on.


Re: Sgt Bergdahl comes home (finally)
« Reply #107 on: June 02, 2014, 02:08:24 PM »
Again, I might tend to agree with you and have a little sympathy if he didn't walk off his fucking post and desert his comrades--like they're all coming out and saying.

As I said previously. I don't condone what he did.

Quote
I know all about the cycle and process of captivity.  Maybe he shouldn't have given up faith in his country and his companions before he left the relative safety of his base.

Coulda, shoulda, woulda... I can't begin to imagine being in a war..Let alone being in one that was illegal, fruitless and based on lies. Tie that in with (in this case) lack of discipline at a platoon level, despondency of his officers and just disgust what was being done in his country's name.

Re: Sgt Bergdahl comes home (finally)
« Reply #108 on: June 02, 2014, 02:10:41 PM »
I can't begin to imagine being in a war.

Blisteringly obvious.


Re: Sgt Bergdahl comes home (finally)
« Reply #109 on: June 02, 2014, 02:10:47 PM »
Well, the war isn't legitmate, so the standard he'll have to reach is absurdly low. Does he still get the "innocent until proven guilty in a court of law" thing? Maybe he got a vaccine for that.

I was going to respond to your other points in your posts, but I can see you're all caught up in your discussion with your intellectual equal, so I'll leave you two cats to it. Ciao.

You're more than welcome to.  I'm attempting to have as open of a conversation as possible.

I'm admittedly a bit biased in this situation, and you're absolutely right that he will be innocent of any charges until proven guilty.  But this isn't a situation like any other service member being taken captive.

Re: Sgt Bergdahl comes home (finally)
« Reply #110 on: June 02, 2014, 02:14:43 PM »
Fresh off the AP Wire: U.S. concluded in 2010 that Bergdahl walked away from his post.

http://www.wral.com/us-soldier-released-after-5-years-of-captivity/13691736/

Re: Sgt Bergdahl comes home (finally)
« Reply #111 on: June 02, 2014, 02:17:49 PM »
As I said previously. I don't condone what he did.

Coulda, shoulda, woulda... I can't begin to imagine being in a war..Let alone being in one that was illegal, fruitless and based on lies. Tie that in with (in this case) lack of discipline at a platoon level, despondency of his officers and just disgust what was being done in his country's name.

When did we start talking about the Iraq war?

Re: Sgt Bergdahl comes home (finally)
« Reply #112 on: June 02, 2014, 02:18:24 PM »
But this isn't a situation like any other service member being taken captive.

Listen, I am telling you. Go find anyone else born between March 25th and April 2nd. Talk to them for ten minutes. Try dating one. They're all retarded. Arguably incapable of even comprehending the very concept of treason.


When did we start talking about the Iraq war?

There is only one war.

Re: Sgt Bergdahl comes home (finally)
« Reply #113 on: June 02, 2014, 02:23:15 PM »
Fresh off the AP Wire: U.S. concluded in 2010 that Bergdahl walked away from his post.

http://www.wral.com/us-soldier-released-after-5-years-of-captivity/13691736/
That comes as absolutely no suprise whatsoever. I also read, that the commission that Gov. Chris Christie commissioned to investigate Christie, exonerated Christie. Shocking.

The present US political clique no longer has any credibility on the global stage. Well, okay, maybe a little. About nachos.

Re: Sgt Bergdahl comes home (finally)
« Reply #114 on: June 02, 2014, 03:25:33 PM »
How about, we give the guy the chance to actually step foot back in the US, and listen to what he has to say, THEN rush to condemn him?

I'd hardly condemn him at all. He's entitled to his free speech. I'd like to condemn the idiots that decided 5 enemy commanders were worth breaking policy to obtain this soldier, and not a particularly great one at best. Calling him a scumbag isn't condemning him is it? Cause judging his character I'd say he was worth a dirty diaper toss to the curb before maggots made a meal of it.
Just my opinion though, he might have been a heck of a great guy to his captures, or somebody out there. One person's hero is another's enemy.

Re: Sgt Bergdahl comes home (finally)
« Reply #115 on: June 02, 2014, 03:29:57 PM »
I'd like to condemn the idiots that decided 5 enemy commanders were worth breaking policy to obtain this soldier

This.There must be so much more to this story besides what the President told us on the television. No matter the reason--what were they thinking??

Re: Sgt Bergdahl comes home (finally)
« Reply #116 on: June 02, 2014, 03:32:55 PM »
He is a deserter. If you don't want to go to war, don't enlist. Seems simple enough.

Re: Sgt Bergdahl comes home (finally)
« Reply #117 on: June 02, 2014, 03:37:19 PM »
I'd hardly condemn him at all. He's entitled to his free speech...


I think a person leaves some of their rights at the door when they join the military.  The right to leave whenever they want.  The right to disobey lawful orders.  The right to speech that undermines the military in the middle of a war.  In an all volunteer military, they agree to this when they sign up.

Free speech is not absolute, there are many examples where certain speech is prohibited, and rightly so.


... I'd like to condemn the idiots that decided 5 enemy commanders were worth breaking policy to obtain this soldier, and not a particularly great one at best. Calling him a scumbag isn't condemning him is it? Cause judging his character I'd say he was worth a dirty diaper toss to the curb before maggots made a meal of it...

With you on this. 

Re: Sgt Bergdahl comes home (finally)
« Reply #118 on: June 02, 2014, 03:48:21 PM »

I think a person leaves some of their rights at the door when they join the military.  The right to leave whenever they want.  The right to disobey lawful orders.  The right to speech that undermines the military in the middle of a war.  In an all volunteer military, they agree to this when they sign up.

Free speech is not absolute, there are many examples where certain speech is prohibited, and rightly so.


With you on this.

Yup. I didn't even think of that until you've mentioned it. He's still considered an active duty enlisted soldier. He may find himself in hot water before long via Court Marshall. Desertion is punishable up to the death penalty, and this guy was (according to the military in 2011) a Deserter. I don't like to play into conspiracies but as said earlier, Something behind the scenes of this is being hidden. Only time and unsealed lips will tell.


Re: Sgt Bergdahl comes home (finally)
« Reply #119 on: June 02, 2014, 04:40:16 PM »
Interview with Bowe Bergdahl's former Team Leader, Sgt Evan Buetow, at OP Mest in Afghanistan:



Article with quotes from Bergdahl's platoon mate Specialist Cody Full:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/we-swore-oath-and-we-upheld-ours-he-did-not_794093.html