Author Topic: Missing Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation  (Read 47841 times)

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Re: Missing Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #300 on: March 22, 2014, 05:13:13 AM »
Well, I don't have a 777 installed, so I tried the experiment of climbing to 30,000 feet, shutting off autopilot cutting the engines at 30,000 feet with a 737-300.  It just glided down, no swooping, no stalling, just a final crash.  From the angle it crashed, I would guess it would be a pretty bad, but it wasn't severe - maybe 10-15 degrees?  Certainly wouldn't be something that would keep the plane intact.

Couple of points. 'Toy' flight sims don't recreate aerodynamics fully, secondly I said it depended on how the aircraft was trimmed.. that would include pitch trim and any movement of the CG. It could just glide down until it made tent peg impressions or it could stall.

Re: Missing Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #301 on: March 22, 2014, 06:33:46 AM »
8. War.
9. News media profits.
Not necessarily.  When I've worked at local stations during wars, our ad revenue dropped because advertisers did not want their stupid ads running next to bloody war stories.

Re: Missing Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #302 on: March 22, 2014, 10:12:38 AM »
Not necessarily.  When I've worked at local stations during wars, our ad revenue dropped because advertisers did not want their stupid ads running next to bloody war stories.

it doesnt seem to bother coast advertisers when george does his dead children thing, or pesters a guest on what its like to die in a pyroclastic cloud in gruesome detail.


Re: Missing Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #303 on: March 22, 2014, 08:44:09 PM »
Couple of points. 'Toy' flight sims don't recreate aerodynamics fully, secondly I said it depended on how the aircraft was trimmed.. that would include pitch trim and any movement of the CG. It could just glide down until it made tent peg impressions or it could stall.

I wouldn't really call FSX too much of a toy sim, many many real world pilots use it for training.  Sure it's not $100,000+ but it's no flight sim for the console fanboys, and the addons that I have for the 737-300 people have taken much care to try to make their model as close to the real thing as possible.  I was also using real-weather data, which, although not accurate to what they dealt with, it would be accurate if I was flying out of my home airport.   I'm going to get x-plane next, which IS touted as the most realistic flight sim out there, and it is used by the $100,000+ sim machines, and I'll give it a shot and let you know what it does.   My guess is it will do exactly what FSX does and just glide in to a crash.


Re: Missing Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #304 on: March 22, 2014, 08:47:38 PM »
Couple of points. 'Toy' flight sims don't recreate aerodynamics fully, secondly I said it depended on how the aircraft was trimmed.. that would include pitch trim and any movement of the CG. It could just glide down until it made tent peg impressions or it could stall.
Also if everyone is incapacitated and the autopilot is on it would fly until out of fuel then glide until it hit ground.
I think everyone is focusing on the Sat photos but we aren't seeing them until days after they are taken and even then they can't say for sure if they are a/c debris or something else.

Re: Missing Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #305 on: March 22, 2014, 08:57:19 PM »
Could it actually be possible that perhaps they're just taking the scenic route?

..it can really calm the nerves and take the edge off of flying, just sayin.

Re: Missing Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #306 on: March 22, 2014, 09:02:38 PM »
... and it is used by the $100,000+ sim machines, and I'll give it a shot and let you know what it does.   My guess is it will do exactly what FSX does and just glide in to a crash.
The difference between a $1000 gamer simulator and a $100K model is about five years.

Re: Missing Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #307 on: March 23, 2014, 01:36:30 AM »
The difference between a $1000 gamer simulator and a $100K model is about five years.

I know it was military (Tornado): My brother's first job out of college in the 80's was a software engineer for a company called Redifusion simulation. Running on five Winchester drives simultainiously the software was 20 Million, the sim another 20 Mill (about $32mill).the procedure manual alone was 60000. The whole lot runs in an air conditioned hanger. Civilian sims will be on the same lines. So yeah..MS fx, X plane et al are toys. quite good toys.

Re: Missing Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #308 on: March 23, 2014, 12:14:42 PM »
I know it was military (Tornado): My brother's first job out of college in the 80's was a software engineer for a company called Redifusion simulation. Running on five Winchester drives simultainiously the software was 20 Million, the sim another 20 Mill (about $32mill).the procedure manual alone was 60000. The whole lot runs in an air conditioned hanger. Civilian sims will be on the same lines. So yeah..MS fx, X plane et al are toys. quite good toys.

No, VTA is right, there isn't much of a difference.   Government contracts are WAY over priced, not to mention they have a lot of hardware to support that programs like FSX do not.   Meaning they have to mock up the cockpits, write lots of extra documentation for both the software and hardware, etc etc, plus provide a ton of support.   They probably also have to program a lot of scenarios and AI, whereas most flight sims offer only a few "missions" to complete with really hardly any AI except maybe tower and center support (ARTCC/ATC).  Also, back when your brother was working on them, computers were a lot more expensive.

I once took a ride in a refueling simulator at our local air force base, and I'm sure it cost millions to make.   Guess what? It wasn't even computer screens - it was a model!    Millions of dollars have gone into Microsoft's flight simulator over the years.   You don't get credit from real world pilots for making a "toy."     It isn't that hard to model wind, drag, thrust, CG, etc etc, especially with today's processing power.   You're kidding yourself if you think differently, Pud.

Re: Missing Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #309 on: March 23, 2014, 02:41:33 PM »
I know it was military (Tornado): My brother's first job out of college in the 80's was a software engineer for a company called Redifusion simulation. Running on five Winchester drives simultainiously the software was 20 Million, the sim another 20 Mill (about $32mill).the procedure manual alone was 60000. The whole lot runs in an air conditioned hanger. Civilian sims will be on the same lines. So yeah..MS fx, X plane et al are toys. quite good toys.

There are multiple (different)  simulators for any one combat aircraft, at least in the USAF.  The degree of complexity of each sim is a function of what is being simulated/trained.  There is no need to occupy a full-function sim for use by a recently graduated UPT pilot just coming onto a new aircraft.  That newbie can be get by with a rather basic simulation until he/she gets the basics of the new a/c down before moving up.  The most complex sims are motion-based, have wrap-around visual projection (probably not the right term for new hi def screens, but the best I can do), and have significantly greater computer power to simulate an unbelievable number of real world, even combat scenarios. 

In the late 2000s, I flew all three T-38 simulators at Randolph AFB.  I'm not a conehead, but what I recall was the first was for basic flight maneuvers in the a/c, the second had the ability to add additional a/c to simulate formation and cross country flights, the last was capable of simulating advanced flight maneuvers including air combat scenarios.  Seeing as how I crashed in all three, I didn't get to experience full gambit of what each could do.  Those sims ran almost all the time, probably 16 hrs day if not more. 

Re: Missing Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #310 on: March 23, 2014, 04:30:54 PM »
There are multiple (different)  simulators for any one combat aircraft, at least in the USAF.  The degree of complexity of each sim is a function of what is being simulated/trained.  There is no need to occupy a full-function sim for use by a recently graduated UPT pilot just coming onto a new aircraft.  That newbie can be get by with a rather basic simulation until he/she gets the basics of the new a/c down before moving up.  The most complex sims are motion-based, have wrap-around visual projection (probably not the right term for new hi def screens, but the best I can do), and have significantly greater computer power to simulate an unbelievable number of real world, even combat scenarios. 

In the late 2000s, I flew all three T-38 simulators at Randolph AFB.  I'm not a conehead, but what I recall was the first was for basic flight maneuvers in the a/c, the second had the ability to add additional a/c to simulate formation and cross country flights, the last was capable of simulating advanced flight maneuvers including air combat scenarios.  Seeing as how I crashed in all three, I didn't get to experience full gambit of what each could do.  Those sims ran almost all the time, probably 16 hrs day if not more.

Probably something like a cylindrical or spherical panoramic projection screen.

Re: Missing Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #311 on: March 23, 2014, 07:34:53 PM »
Seems the Malaysians have contradicted themselves again today and are now saying :
1) the turn was not before the ATC sign-off, and
2) their military radar contact showed a descent from 35,000 ft to 12,000 ft.  No further mention of the climb to 45,000 ft.

These put events in line with expected the response to an in-flight fire or depressurization and deflate most conspiracy theories.

Re: Missing Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation - Black Boxes
« Reply #312 on: March 23, 2014, 08:20:32 PM »
So, if the plane flew on for *many* hours after it left the course for Bejing, then the information left on the Black Boxes would not be very useful, would it ??

Re: Missing Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation - Black Boxes
« Reply #313 on: March 23, 2014, 08:27:29 PM »
So, if the plane flew on for *many* hours after it left the course for Bejing, then the information left on the Black Boxes would not be very useful, would it ??
The cockpit voice recorder records over itself on a two hour loop. The flight data recorder can record 18 hours or more of flight info.

Re: Missing Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #314 on: March 23, 2014, 09:32:11 PM »
Seems the Malaysians have contradicted themselves again today and are now saying :
1) the turn was not before the ATC sign-off, and
2) their military radar contact showed a descent from 35,000 ft to 12,000 ft.  No further mention of the climb to 45,000 ft.

These put events in line with expected the response to an in-flight fire or depressurization and deflate most conspiracy theories.

The 45k ft bit was silly anyway, don't know any aviation professional who believed it.

If 2) above is correct, the key question is still how long before the descent to 12k?  The "depressurize to kill the passengers and cabin crew" theory is still in play unless they descended before the pax 02 was expended.  If the pilot(s) depressurized and remained at cruise alt for much more than 20 min, the pax were dead.  Stews might have lasted longer if they got to walk-around bottles.

Regardless of when they turned and what altitude they went to, still does not address turning off the transponder.

Re: Missing Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #315 on: March 23, 2014, 10:35:59 PM »
In the late 2000s, I flew all three T-38 simulators at Randolph AFB.  Seeing as how I crashed in all three, I didn't get to experience full gambit of what each could do.  Those sims ran almost all the time, probably 16 hrs day if not more.

I'm definitely jealous!  How did you crash, on landing?

There are many home cockpit sims out there, but here's one that looks pretty good:

http://www.webring.org/go?ring=cockpits&id=28&ac=SrF%AC%FE%DA%2EsY%A8%88%D3uY%2D%F5%D9%EB%D6%0D%3D%05%ED%EC%8C%22%0D%10%E2%DE%AEhM+%13%D6%E2%9Aq&&go


Re: Missing Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #316 on: March 24, 2014, 12:57:29 AM »
Even if they retrieve wreckage or the FDR/CVR, folks are going to say they were planted or faked.  This will never be resolved in the collective psyche. 

Re: Missing Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #317 on: March 24, 2014, 10:14:11 AM »
Regardless of when they turned and what altitude they went to, still does not address turning off the transponder.
It wasn't transmitting. That doesn't necessarily mean it was turned off.  Likely it was disabled by whatever took out the comm system.

Re: Missing Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #318 on: March 24, 2014, 11:09:18 AM »
It wasn't transmitting. That doesn't necessarily mean it was turned off.  Likely it was disabled by whatever took out the comm system.

Last word was the transponder had been disabled prior to the last radio call, but like everything else in this episode, I suppose that too is subject to change.

Do we know both the radios and transponder are on the same bus in the 777?  If so, seems like a poor design. 

Re: Missing Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #319 on: March 24, 2014, 11:29:14 AM »
A refined re-examination of satellite ping data confirms that MH370 flew into the middle of the Indian Ocean. The Airline announces that there are no survivors to the families.

The production on an Austrailian film, "Deep Water", about a 747 crashing into a remote ocean area, and the surviviors fending off sharks has been shleved for now. It was supposed to be the sequel to "Bait 3D".

Re: Missing Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #320 on: March 24, 2014, 11:40:09 AM »
I`m suffering from Missing Malaysian Airline Flight Fatigue.

I am just sick and f***** tired of hearing 25/8 coverage on this damn airplane!


Nobody knows a f******** thing!! When it`s found, i`ll be thrilled to hear about it, but until then, I am done with it!

Re: Missing Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #321 on: March 24, 2014, 12:12:02 PM »
I won't be relieved until I see Geraldo Rivera reporting "Live" from a boat, in the middle of the Indian Ocean ! ! !

Re: Missing Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #322 on: March 24, 2014, 12:24:08 PM »
I`m suffering from Missing Malaysian Airline Flight Fatigue.

I am just sick and f***** tired of hearing 25/8 coverage on this damn airplane!


Nobody knows a f******** thing!! When it`s found, i`ll be thrilled to hear about it, but until then, I am done with it!

Here Here!   I gave up trying to figure this shit out.   

Re: Missing Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #323 on: March 24, 2014, 12:38:35 PM »
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-26716572
Really? Texting the devastated family members this information is way classy. Nice job.

Re: Missing Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #324 on: March 24, 2014, 01:17:54 PM »
Middle of the Indian Ocean, huh? Fancy that. :rolleyes:


There probably was a plan on paper to repatriate the passengers and crew, but that plan clearly went south at some point, some time ago.

Re: Missing Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #325 on: March 24, 2014, 01:50:04 PM »
There are multiple (different)  simulators for any one combat aircraft, at least in the USAF.  The degree of complexity of each sim is a function of what is being simulated/trained.  There is no need to occupy a full-function sim for use by a recently graduated UPT pilot just coming onto a new aircraft.  That newbie can be get by with a rather basic simulation until he/she gets the basics of the new a/c down before moving up.  The most complex sims are motion-based, have wrap-around visual projection (probably not the right term for new hi def screens, but the best I can do), and have significantly greater computer power to simulate an unbelievable number of real world, even combat scenarios. 

In the late 2000s, I flew all three T-38 simulators at Randolph AFB.  I'm not a conehead, but what I recall was the first was for basic flight maneuvers in the a/c, the second had the ability to add additional a/c to simulate formation and cross country flights, the last was capable of simulating advanced flight maneuvers including air combat scenarios.  Seeing as how I crashed in all three, I didn't get to experience full gambit of what each could do.  Those sims ran almost all the time, probably 16 hrs day if not more.


As far as I'm aware (because it's obviously mainly secret) the Tornado sims at the time were also built by a company called Link Miles. My brother missed out on Gulf War one; He was due to fly to Riyadh a few weeks before it erupted and took ill with a typhoid vaccine jab. His colleague went instead and ended up being out there six months--not happy. They were flying updates out on a daily basis apparently so that the sim (The Saudis have them too-hence the original reason for the trip) was up to speed with what they were fitting on the Tonka (Tornado) jets. He was also invited to the US hangers where he was shown an F117 by a pilot who expressed his deep admiration of the Tonka drivers who got down and dirty in the sand.

From what he told me about the rendering, the pilots wore a retina scanner that brought into sharp focus 3 degrees angle of view and the rest less so to cut down on rendering time. The sims being on hydraulic stilts running at 300PSI. He couldn't tell me much more than that.

Re: Missing Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #326 on: March 24, 2014, 03:10:18 PM »
I'm definitely jealous!  How did you crash, on landing?

There are many home cockpit sims out there, but here's one that looks pretty good:

http://www.webring.org/go?ring=cockpits&id=28&ac=SrF%AC%FE%DA%2EsY%A8%88%D3uY%2D%F5%D9%EB%D6%0D%3D%05%ED%EC%8C%22%0D%10%E2%DE%AEhM+%13%D6%E2%9Aq&&go

Sorry Drone, must have missed this earlier.

At least one of my crashes was on landing, but I only got that far because they started the simulation at landing.  Don't remember the parameters for the other two, but one of the instructors (former T-38 IPs now contractors) used the expression "ham fisted" to describe my flying prowess.

That same day, btw, another of our group who flew the sims was a retired USMC A-4 pilot who'd never flown a T-38 and hadn't flown anything in over 15 yrs at that point.  He greased a perfect landing on his first try, I was impressed.

Re: Missing Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #327 on: March 24, 2014, 03:18:57 PM »
A refined re-examination of satellite ping data confirms that MH370 flew into the middle of the Indian Ocean. The Airline announces that there are no survivors to the families.
Inmarsat was able to analyse the doppler shift in the aircraft's ping frequency to determine that the plane was getting closer to the satellite; so it had to be on the southern path.  Pretty amazing for a system never intended for that level of precision.

Re: Missing Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #328 on: March 24, 2014, 03:45:42 PM »
Sorry Drone, must have missed this earlier.

At least one of my crashes was on landing, but I only got that far because they started the simulation at landing.  Don't remember the parameters for the other two, but one of the instructors (former T-38 IPs now contractors) used the expression "ham fisted" to describe my flying prowess.

That same day, btw, another of our group who flew the sims was a retired USMC A-4 pilot who'd never flown a T-38 and hadn't flown anything in over 15 yrs at that point.  He greased a perfect landing on his first try, I was impressed.

Not that this has anything to do with anything, but my Dad was an USMC A4 mechanic.  I think those little jets are awesome.   If I could afford one, that's the plane I would own.     I think it's like baseball - there's the little league, like us recreational pilots who fly single engine planes, there's minor leagues and there's pro ball, which are airline and military jet pilots.   Have enough practice with things that operate at a higher speed, and you'd be able to do it too.

The refueling simulator I spoke of earlier, myself and the other students failed to make a successful go, but looking back, I think the operators purposefully introduced extra problems into the sim to make it impossible so they could get a chuckle and maybe try to make themselves feel more important.   Keep that in mind if anyone tells you how ham fisted you are and they are in control of the simulator.  ;)

Re: Missing Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #329 on: March 24, 2014, 08:48:19 PM »
Not that this has anything to do with anything, but my Dad was an USMC A4 mechanic.  I think those little jets are awesome.   If I could afford one, that's the plane I would own.     I think it's like baseball - there's the little league, like us recreational pilots who fly single engine planes, there's minor leagues and there's pro ball, which are airline and military jet pilots.   Have enough practice with things that operate at a higher speed, and you'd be able to do it too.

The refueling simulator I spoke of earlier, myself and the other students failed to make a successful go, but looking back, I think the operators purposefully introduced extra problems into the sim to make it impossible so they could get a chuckle and maybe try to make themselves feel more important.   Keep that in mind if anyone tells you how ham fisted you are and they are in control of the simulator.  ;)

Said tongue-in-cheek, the standard good-natured ribbing that goes on between pilots and engineers.  All in good fun, but I always had a great working relationship with pilots.  With one exception, I would readily put my life in the hands of any of the hundreds of USAF pilots I worked with over 30+ years.  I wouldn't ride in the same car with that one guy, however.