Author Topic: Missing Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation  (Read 47843 times)

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Re: Crashed Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #180 on: March 17, 2014, 07:50:16 PM »
Somehow I doubt that the U.S. military "turns off" their radar at Diego Garcia, honestly.
I agree, and I'm pretty sure we know more about who's in Pak airspace than the Paks do.

Re: Crashed Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #181 on: March 17, 2014, 08:13:33 PM »
Don't know the service ceiling of a 777, but with the passenger and fuel load it was carrying, 45000 ft is a stretch. 

Re: Crashed Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #182 on: March 18, 2014, 03:17:48 AM »
Maybe they were broadcasting C2CAM over the cabin loudspeakers for an extra boost of HOT AIR


Re: Crashed Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #183 on: March 18, 2014, 12:34:14 PM »
Taking the plane that high would be the fastest way to incapacitate every individual on the vessel not equipped with a breathing apparatus.

Lost Jet’s Path Seen as Altered via Computer


Re: Crashed Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #184 on: March 18, 2014, 01:17:56 PM »
777 operational ceiling is 43,000 ft.  According to the experts, it gets squirrelly at that altitude and becomes increasingly uncontrollable over that. The media is ignoring the second part of this; that the same data that showed the big altitude changes also showed they were made at impossible speed.

Re: Crashed Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #185 on: March 18, 2014, 01:25:43 PM »
777 operational ceiling is 43,000 ft.  According to the experts, it gets squirrelly at that altitude and becomes increasingly uncontrollable over that. The media is ignoring the second part of this; that the same data that showed the big altitude changes also showed they were made at impossible speed.

just look at the data, its all in there -RCH

Re: Crashed Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #186 on: March 18, 2014, 02:14:03 PM »
Maybe they were broadcasting C2CAM over the cabin loudspeakers for an extra boost of HOT AIR

That would certainly be an easier way to incapacitate everyone aboard. Much more painful though.

Re: Crashed Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #187 on: March 18, 2014, 02:58:13 PM »
Taking the plane that high would be the fastest way to incapacitate every individual on the vessel not equipped with a breathing apparatus.


Commerical airliners are pressurized to a pressure altitude of about 8000 ft, makes no difference if the a/c is at 10000 ft or 45000 ft (asumming it can get there), as long as the cabin isn't depressurized the passengers are fine without supplemental oxygen.  So are you suggesting the flight deck crew depressurized the cabin?  If so, the pax 02 masks drop automatically above some altitude, somewhere in the 10-15k ft range.  Can the pax 02 system be disabled from the flight deck?  Doubtful, as it would make no sense to ever do that in flight.

If we assume the cabin was depressurized, the crew would not have to turn off the pax 02 to kill them.  All they would need to do is fly  high enough, long enough to use up all the pax 02.  Pax 02 is there only as a "get me down" measure, in the event of a depressurization, the emergency procedure is to get low enough, 10-15k ft, where 02 is not needed.  From cruise altitude, that can be done fairly quickly.  I'd be surprised if pax 02 would last 15-20 minutes at cruise altitude.  Flight deck 02 must last significantly longer since the crew must be able to breath while flying in a smoke-filled cockpit environment.

I don't think this happened, just saying it could be done.

Re: Crashed Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #188 on: March 18, 2014, 06:04:14 PM »
So are you suggesting the flight deck crew depressurized the cabin?
I don't ascribe to this scenario, but I heard aviation types on TV saying that the compressors aren't capable of maintaining cabin pressure over 45K feet.  Sounds weak to me since the system can apparently handle the 43K service ceiling OK.


Re: Crashed Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #190 on: March 18, 2014, 07:59:54 PM »
Like a previous poster said, it may not even fly right at that altitude, there's close to a 10% difference in air-pressure between those altitudes, if you're close to a limit anyway due to the weight of the aircraft, this may push you over into a really dangerous situation... You may have a situation where your ability to maintain cabin pressure is further compromised by not being able to run the engines so hard, so your ability to maintain pressure or even just stay in the air may fall off quicker than you think beyond a certain point.

As for tracking it, GPS allows a sub-meter accuracy, if you're just trying to track a more general location, like to within 1000 meters... More than 1000 times a margin of error over GPS but I guess an even larger still margin of error would still be useful for tracking a big, fast jet.

The part of me that was probably a bit traumatised by watching the events of 9/11 and remains a little more paranoid to this day, expects this aircraft to re-appear suddenly and plough into a skyscraper. But I think it would have just been used at the time rather than stored for some other purpose - perhaps loaded with old nuclear fuel perhaps to make a big dirty bomb, the mind easily boggles with nefarious schemes which all seem a bit unrealistic...

Re: Crashed Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #191 on: March 18, 2014, 09:43:49 PM »
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2014/03/mh370-electrical-fire/
The timeline being broadly reported puts the "All right..good night" message to ATC several minutes after the course change input, killing the notion that the turn was in response to a system problem or emergency. 

Re: Crashed Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #192 on: March 18, 2014, 11:19:16 PM »
Did Courtney Love Find Missing Malaysian Airlines Flight MH370?



Call off the dogs: Courtney Love has a lead on that missing Malaysian Airlines plane.

Nine days after flight MH370 went missing, the Hole frontwoman took to Facebook to share her theory, pointing to an ocean-view photo and claiming, "I'm no expert, but up close this does look like a plane and an oil slick."

The Beijing-bound Boeing 777, carrying 239 passengers, disappeared on March 8. The last signal received from the craft came in at 1:19 a.m., with the co-pilot stating, "All right, good night" to air traffic controllers. Immediately following, the transponder was shut down.

Love followed up her photographic proof with some hard facts, citing "It's like a mile away, Pulau Peak, where they 'last' tracked it, 5°39'08.5"N 98°50'38.0"E, but what do I know?"

She was one of many millions of people using tomnod.com, a website that allows visitors to scan thousands of miles of satellite imagery to try to locate the missing aircraft.

The last confirmed siting of MH370's location was noted at 2:14 a.m. by military radar as it headed west over the Strait of Malacca, and an additional satellite record at 8:11 a.m. indicated a faint, final "ping" from the disabled ACARS system.

Theories surrounding the whereabouts of the missing craft have run the gamut from piracy and terrorism to alien abductions. Although it feels unlikely Courtney Love would solve the mystery, her probing can't hurt.


http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1724313/did-courtney-love-find-missing-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh370.jhtml

Re: Crashed Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #193 on: March 18, 2014, 11:58:19 PM »
It's in Courtney's hole. Ba da boomp

Re: Crashed Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #194 on: March 19, 2014, 01:02:09 AM »
Don't know the service ceiling of a 777, but with the passenger and fuel load it was carrying, 45000 ft is a stretch.

Have their been any confirming Radar reports of the flight reaching 45,000 ft ?

Space & Time...


Re: Crashed Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #195 on: March 19, 2014, 01:08:25 AM »
Gen. Thomas McInerney (ret.), is saying the plane landed in  Pakistan. He's a pretty smart guy, with a buttload of contacts. Interesting.

Re: Crashed Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #196 on: March 19, 2014, 09:44:14 AM »
Gen. Thomas McInerney (ret.), is saying the plane landed in  Pakistan. He's a pretty smart guy, with a buttload of contacts. Interesting.

Did the General happen to explain how the a/c got through/into the air space and air defense of two belligerent nations without transponders or IFF squawking?  What I'm really asking is if he is claming the militaries of either India or Pakistan was in on hijacking an airliner and flying it to Pakistan?

Re: Crashed Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #197 on: March 19, 2014, 09:56:05 AM »
Could the transponders be changed?  For instance, could they be made to imitate, say, a Pakistani commercial jet?

Re: Crashed Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #198 on: March 19, 2014, 10:05:49 AM »
Gen. Thomas McInerney (ret.), is saying the plane landed in  Pakistan. He's a pretty smart guy, with a buttload of contacts. Interesting.

A smart guy with a lot of contacts would definitely not say the plane landed at Diego Garcia, lol

Re: Crashed Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #199 on: March 19, 2014, 12:06:13 PM »

http://www.ibtimes.com/malaysian-airlines-flight-370-india-pakistan-say-they-know-nothing-saw-nothing-1562057

Confirms what I said earlier about the chances the a/c could get through Indian and Paki air space/air defense.

Could the transponders be changed?  For instance, could they be made to imitate, say, a Pakistani commercial jet?

That's a fair question, but I think it needs to be broken down into a series of incremental questions>

 1)Could transponder codes be changed, or a different transponder put on the a/c?--I think the answer is yes.

2) Would either of the pilots or anyone else on board have the skill set and/or any special tools/support/calibration equipment required to physically affect those changes in-flight? --Here I'm skeptical, don't think this was done in flight by those on-board.

3) Assuming the codes or the transponder could be changed in flight, what are the chances anyonne on board would have the detailed information representing multiple flights to ensure a specific aircraft they were mimicking at any specific time was valid?  Might have to change the squawk 3-4 times as they cross multiple national air spaces and/or radar grids.--Suppose it's possible a very capable terror/criminal organization might be able to get hold of that level of detail information, but I seriously doubt it.

OF course all these issues go away if a nation (or nations) was complaisant in this effort.  I believe that less than I do most of the theories being floated.


Re: Crashed Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #200 on: March 19, 2014, 12:48:29 PM »
http://www.ibtimes.com/malaysian-airlines-flight-370-india-pakistan-say-they-know-nothing-saw-nothing-1562057

Confirms what I said earlier about the chances the a/c could get through Indian and Paki air space/air defense.

That's a fair question, but I think it needs to be broken down into a series of incremental questions>

 1)Could transponder codes be changed, or a different transponder put on the a/c?--I think the answer is yes.



2) Would either of the pilots or anyone else on board have the skill set and/or any special tools/support/calibration equipment required to physically affect those changes in-flight? --Here I'm skeptical, don't think this was done in flight by those on-board.

3) Assuming the codes or the transponder could be changed in flight, what are the chances anyonne on board would have the detailed information representing multiple flights to ensure a specific aircraft they were mimicking at any specific time was valid?  Might have to change the squawk 3-4 times as they cross multiple national air spaces and/or radar grids.--Suppose it's possible a very capable terror/criminal organization might be able to get hold of that level of detail information, but I seriously doubt it.

OF course all these issues go away if a nation (or nations) was complaisant in this effort.  I believe that less than I do most of the theories being floated.

IFF codes can be changed in flight at anytime, ATC can request you sqwake any number and you have to change it.  ATC can also request you Ident and that makes the icon on the radar screen flash. Also if there is a hijacking there is a special Ident code a pilot or co-pilot can put into the system that EVERY Air Traffic controller knows.


Re: Crashed Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #201 on: March 19, 2014, 12:56:37 PM »
Gen. Thomas McInerney (ret.), is saying the plane landed in  Pakistan. He's a pretty smart guy, with a buttload of contacts. Interesting.
Jesse Ventura on his Off the Grid page is saying there were at least 20 electronic warfare and radar experts on the plane.  If this is true, it could signal a huge motive for swiping plane and people.  I have not yet seen this corroborated, but it might also explain the tight grip on information the Malay military (and others) have had about this plane.

Re: Crashed Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #202 on: March 19, 2014, 01:32:01 PM »
Grov505th--

You said:

IFF codes can be changed in flight at anytime, ATC can request you sqwake any number and you have to change it.  ATC can also request you Ident and that makes the icon on the radar screen flash. Also if there is a hijacking there is a special Ident code a pilot or co-pilot can put into the system that EVERY Air Traffic controller knows.
 

I get all that, and it makes perfect sense.  Those actions are different from someone aboard a/c A being able to change transponder codes so as to assume the identity of a/c B while both are in flight, are they not?  ATC would never request you to change code to that of another a/c, would they? Isnt't ATC going to get suspucious of two a/c squawking the same indentity in the same patch of sky?

Bigger picture question.......is there cross flow of data/information from ATC centers around the world?  Consider this example, admittedly pulling airlines and flt numbers out of my ass.   Air France Flt 334 is squawking and being controlled by ATC in Japan, and at the same time another a/c squawking the same code for that Air France flight is being controlled by ATC in the Caribbean.  I'm sure the issue of flight plans comes in there somewhere, but if a unique aircraft was squawking the same code in two different parts of the world, would there be some centralized aviation authority who would recognize a case of aerial bi-location?

Re: Crashed Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #203 on: March 19, 2014, 01:46:01 PM »
Grov505th--

You said:

IFF codes can be changed in flight at anytime, ATC can request you sqwake any number and you have to change it.  ATC can also request you Ident and that makes the icon on the radar screen flash. Also if there is a hijacking there is a special Ident code a pilot or co-pilot can put into the system that EVERY Air Traffic controller knows.
 

I get all that, and it makes perfect sense.  Those actions are different from someone aboard a/c A being able to change transponder codes so as to assume the identity of a/c B while both are in flight, are they not?  ATC would never request you to change code to that of another a/c, would they? Isnt't ATC going to get suspucious of two a/c squawking the same indentity in the same patch of sky?

Bigger picture question.......is there cross flow of data/information from ATC centers around the world?  Consider this example, admittedly pulling airlines and flt numbers out of my ass.   Air France Flt 334 is squawking and being controlled by ATC in Japan, and at the same time another a/c squawking the same code for that Air France flight is being controlled by ATC in the Caribbean.  I'm sure the issue of flight plans comes in there somewhere, but if a unique aircraft was squawking the same code in two different parts of the world, would there be some centralized aviation authority who would recognize a case of aerial bi-location?

Ok- let me see if I can answer this...yes you can have the same IFF in 2 different parts of the world.  As a aircraft leaves from area of control to another they are told to contact the next one...so let go back to your example:
AF Flt 334 is squawking 7324 and being contorlled by a center in Japan, when they leave that centers Airspace they are told to contact the next center on what every freq they use.
When they do that they tell the enter who, what, and where they are going and what they are squawking. The new center see them on radar and tells them that.
Now comes another point...you cannot have 2 A/C in the same airspace showing the same ID......and if that does happen, the ATC will tell one of them to change it.

Re: Crashed Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #204 on: March 19, 2014, 02:05:48 PM »
Ok- let me see if I can answer this...yes you can have the same IFF in 2 different parts of the world.  As a aircraft leaves from area of control to another they are told to contact the next one...so let go back to your example:
AF Flt 334 is squawking 7324 and being contorlled by a center in Japan, when they leave that centers Airspace they are told to contact the next center on what every freq they use.
When they do that they tell the enter who, what, and where they are going and what they are squawking. The new center see them on radar and tells them that.
Now comes another point...you cannot have 2 A/C in the same airspace showing the same ID......and if that does happen, the ATC will tell one of them to change it.

OK, understand ATCs passing off a/c as they enter/exit airspace they control.  What about two aircraft in two different parts of the world identifying themselves as the exact same aircraft/flt number?  Yes, they squawk the same code, but is anyone going to recognize a unique a/c is seemingly in the two places thousands of miles apart at the same time?

So when ATC sees you on the screen squawking whatever code they have assigned, does the transponder automatically send a unique identifier for the aircraft, say registration number and/or type as well?  Obviously this information would never change regardless of the code assigned by ATC.  If not, there is no way ATC would know what type a/c they were dealing with short of asking the crew then believing what they are told.

Re: Crashed Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #205 on: March 19, 2014, 02:21:12 PM »
OK, understand ATCs passing off a/c as they enter/exit airspace they control.  What about two aircraft in two different parts of the world identifying themselves as the exact same aircraft/flt number?  Yes, they squawk the same code, but is anyone going to recognize a unique a/c is seemingly in the two places thousands of miles apart at the same time?

So when ATC sees you on the screen squawking whatever code they have assigned, does the transponder automatically send a unique identifier for the aircraft, say registration number and/or type as well?  Obviously this information would never change regardless of the code assigned by ATC.  If not, there is no way ATC would know what type a/c they were dealing with short of asking the crew then believing what they are told.

Ok..the only way the ATC knows what type of A/C it is by the flight plan the pilot has submitted.  I am not 100% percent sure about the Transponders,  I am not a certified ATC anymore, and its been awhile since I went through school.
but I just looked up something...Its wikipedia but it may help:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviation_transponder_interrogation_modes
And here is a little bit more:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_traffic_control_radar_beacon_system#Mode_S

They didnt have mode S when I was in...so that something new to me.

Re: Crashed Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #206 on: March 19, 2014, 02:39:55 PM »
Ok..the only way the ATC knows what type of A/C it is by the flight plan the pilot has submitted.  I am not 100% percent sure about the Transponders,  I am not a certified ATC anymore, and its been awhile since I went through school.
but I just looked up something...Its wikipedia but it may help:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviation_transponder_interrogation_modes
And here is a little bit more:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_traffic_control_radar_beacon_system#Mode_S

They didnt have mode S when I was in...so that something new to me.

Terrific, thanks now this makes sense.   When I said earlier I didn't think aircrew could change their transponder in flight, it was the unique aircraft identifier code data I was talking about, not the assigned code given for ATC purposes.  Yes, I knew that could change, much like a radio frequency could change, but it made no sense to me an aircraft could change its indivudual specifics to send out a code for another unique aircraft.  Sorry for the misunderstanding.
I didn't realize this capability was relatively new, I thought it had existed for some time.

Re: Crashed Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #207 on: March 19, 2014, 02:43:39 PM »
Terrific, thanks now this makes sense.   When I said earlier I didn't think aircrew could change their transponder in flight, it was the unique aircraft identifier code data I was talking about, not the assigned code given for ATC purposes.  Yes, I knew that could change, much like a radio frequency could change, but it made no sense to me an aircraft could change its indivudual specifics to send out a code for another unique aircraft.  Sorry for the misunderstanding.
I didn't realize this capability was relatively new, I thought it had existed for some time.

Well to be honest...It has been around 20 years since I went thru school and 15 since I actually controlled A/C, and when I did it was mostly arrival and Flight Planning, so the center stuff was simulator and book work.

Re: Crashed Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #208 on: March 19, 2014, 03:13:47 PM »
So (ha) would it be possible (again pulling countries out of my ass) for the Pakistani Intelligence to supply a hijacked plane with a new code so that the plane could fly across India and into Pakistan with the appropriate agencies thinking they are seeing a Pakistani commercial plane?  If so, that might be the answer to Uncle Duke's earlier question.  Again, this is absolute speculation.  I really think it is more likely there was some kind of disaster aboard, the flight crew lost control of the plane, and it flew across the ocean until it ran out of gas.

Re: Crashed Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation
« Reply #209 on: March 19, 2014, 03:23:06 PM »
I am not sure...I really dont have enough data to tell. What I would like to see is radar records...before the transponder was pulled was there any other A/C in the close area.
How well trained and what type of equipment was used where the Controllers where at, how many airspaces did it have to cross to get there.
I think some asked this before...most unidentified blips on a screen are reported and if you enter or get near a countries airspace and are not on the schedule or not ID, you willl get a fighter escort if one is near.  You have to be really close to the Ground to be under radar coverage,  Drug runners flying up into florida and other places are at almost wave top level...
I just dont know enough