Proof Conservatives Know They're Done

[NowhereInTime]

Liberalism has become an ideology that holds it's hands to it's ears and babbles about century-old dead political issues in order to not hear discussion of its own shortfalls and the problems it causes. Well, being the ideology currently in power, you'd think now would be the time to question it.

Your avatar is well chosen because this is just spewing out of your blowhole at this point.
I love how you really believe liberalism is the ideology in power; checked the Courts or the Congress lately?  Obama really remind you of FDR? Even domestic LBJ?
Century old dead political issues?
Are there any conservatives on this board whose family haven't left them and can post sober?

[West of the Rockies]

I find it odd how quickly people will declare so-and-so is not a conservative.  GWB ran as a Republican and was elected as such.  (And, yes, I understand that some people think that conservative and Republican are not synonymous just as liberal and Democratic are not.)  But as soon as things go ka-blooey (a la Bush Jr.), oh, well, he was never really one of us anyway!  And someone noted a couple days ago how many people seem to say, "Hey, I am independent, I have no party ties..." but then declare liberal/Democratic ideas/people as the root of all problems.  They pay lip service to counter balance by saying, "Hey, Bush was a bad president who I did not vote for..." but then immediately play the but he wasn't really a true conservative anyway--he was actually a liberal!" card.

Do liberals/Democrats do this?  Well, in the interests of fairness, I will say that I have encountered libs/Dems who say, "Clinton was actually a centrist, a Republican-lite" or who will note that Obama is actually pretty centrist/moderate.  However, these people generally do NOT say that either Clinton or Obama were/are actually BAD presidents, just not truly liberal/progressive.  Of course, to some people on this forum, Obama is nothing less than a card-carrying Marxist/Muslim/atheist hell-bent on destroying this country.

My takeaway?  None of us are going to convince anyone else here of a damn thing.  We are all either preaching to the choir or presenting "evidence" for our views that will be either ignored or countered with contrary "evidence". 

Still, if nothing else, it makes for interesting theatre and helps kill time.  But time is the true coin of our lives.  Do you want to spend yours arguing with strangers about transitory politics and cultural events?  I guess we all do, otherwise we would not be here.  Food for thought....

[NowhereInTime]

I find it odd how quickly people will declare so-and-so is not a conservative.  GWB ran as a Republican and was elected as such.  (And, yes, I understand that some people think that conservative and Republican are not synonymous just as liberal and Democratic are not.)  But as soon as things go ka-blooey (a la Bush Jr.), oh, well, he was never really one of us anyway!  And someone noted a couple days ago how many people seem to say, "Hey, I am independent, I have no party ties..." but then declare liberal/Democratic ideas/people as the root of all problems.  They pay lip service to counter balance by saying, "Hey, Bush was a bad president who I did not vote for..." but then immediately play the but he wasn't really a true conservative anyway--he was actually a liberal!" card.

Do liberals/Democrats do this?  Well, in the interests of fairness, I will say that I have encountered libs/Dems who say, "Clinton was actually a centrist, a Republican-lite" or who will note that Obama is actually pretty centrist/moderate.  However, these people generally do NOT say that either Clinton or Obama were/are actually BAD presidents, just not truly liberal/progressive.  Of course, to some people on this forum, Obama is nothing less than a card-carrying Marxist/Muslim/atheist hell-bent on destroying this country.

My takeaway?  None of us are going to convince anyone else here of a damn thing.  We are all either preaching to the choir or presenting "evidence" for our views that will be either ignored or countered with contrary "evidence". 

Still, if nothing else, it makes for interesting theatre and helps kill time.  But time is the true coin of our lives.  Do you want to spend yours arguing with strangers about transitory politics and cultural events?  I guess we all do, otherwise we would not be here.  Food for thought....

I don't know that the point is to convert those steadfast in their beliefs but to offer those viewing in passing a presentation of our beliefs for their consumption. 

The reason why it's worth it here is, like MV says, the demographics are strong.  You may not have tens of thousands here but the people you do have are smart (by and large) and have inquisitive minds. I bet over 90% of the users on BellGab vote; I'll bet it's a higher number than the people flaming the boards at CNN, AOL, CNBC, or just about anyplace else.

Have you ever noticed when you first enter the boards how many Members and Guests are viewing the boards?  It may only be me and SciFi Author hurtling invective back and forth at that moment but several check it out to see if either of us makes sense or is blowing it out our ass.

I try to do it passionately but also with a chuckle here and there.  You're right it gets out of control (thank God this board is not moderated) and I think you've seen evidence of contriteness when I am out of line. I prefer to play here precisely because the stakes are high and the people here will be out in November making themselves heard instead of voting for the next American Idol or, worse, listening to Jorch.

You're a great man, West, and a decent soul and I am grateful you stick around here.

[wr250]

Still, if nothing else, it makes for interesting theatre and helps kill time. 

well thats true. i know that i (and others) post simply to be amused at the replies.

[West of the Rockies]

Kind words, Sir... right back at you. 

You're perhaps right about the number of fence-sitters who might be logging in here, although if those people still cannot make up their minds after observing the political history in America of the last 40 years, I don't know what will help them make up their pointy little minds.  I swear, you could post a poll question such as "Was Adolph Hitler a destructive man?" and 93% would say yes, 2% would say no, and 5% would say unsure (like they are still investigating the facts and just can't quite decide).

Maybe if we have a bunch of 20-somethings here on this forum (though I doubt it) who have little sense of politics and history, maybe they'd be reachable.

Look, I do NOT think politics are black and white.  As a liberal, I still think we are wasting loads of money on institutional welfare and such.  I am aware that there are ill-informed, hypocritical Democrats.  I have seen evidence that liberals (who wrap themselves in the flag of tolerance) will still use homophobic slurs and such. 

And in the interest of genuine dialogue and honesty, I DO see some conservatives say that maybe it doesn't matter so much if two dudes marry.  And maybe I am blinded by bias, but I do NOT think I see as much of this sort of criticism of one's own party from those on the right. 

How anyone, for instance, can still think Sarah Palin is a bright and constructive person is beyond me.  (And, no, I am NOT a huge fan of Joe Biden; I do not think Hillary would make a great president.  But for fucks sake, Palin is a true pinhead.)

Oh, well, more ranting at the clouds on my part....

[onan]

The problem appears to be solved. They have a method of getting their grievances in court, and I can't for the life of me see them losing their case. Collusion is not conservative. It's simply criminal activity. There is no conservative issue within this, it's a group of mostly openly liberal corporate heads screwing white collar software developers and going to a court ran under a mostly liberal administration. Exactly where is the problem here?

As far as harm, sure, Bush screwed up a whole lot more than just oil industry oversight. The guy was a shill, a figurehead manipulated by Darth Cheney into any number of serious screw ups, the biggest of which was the Iraq war and the needless death and destruction it caused. I didn't vote for him, nor did I consider him anything but a liberal old boy's club republican. Prescription drug program? What the hell was conservative about that?

But there's a difference here. Republicans haven't been winning because their people aren't turning out. That's healthy. It makes them rethink. Liberals wont do the same.

I've shown many instances, and can show many more, where liberal ideology stomps all over the third world in the name of environmentalism and sustainability. It always falls on deaf ears, of course.

Contributory factors like job field oversaturation due to liberal educational policies regarding college education also gets ignored as though the problem could be fixed without confronting the causes of the problem.

Liberalism has become an ideology that holds it's hands to it's ears and babbles about century-old dead political issues in order to not hear discussion of its own shortfalls and the problems it causes. Well, being the ideology currently in power, you'd think now would be the time to question it.

We don't have too many educated, we have too few employment opportunities. We can argue all day as to why that is. For you it will always be some liberal flaw. And while I will concede that liberals have their flaws, they number no more than conservative flaws.

It seems, at least to me, by your standards, that the conservatives that had been in power are no longer conservatives... I am not distancing myself from Carter, Clinton, or Obama. But several of you guys are telling me Bush wasn't one of yours. That is nonsense. Just because you don't like the smell doesn't mean it isn't your shit.

Tell me, who said this: Deficits don't matter?

But now... you guys can't take a breath without mentioning the deficit. But your guys built the water slide we have to correct, and by some accounts that is happening... I am pretty sure you will disagree.

[SciFiAuthor]

We don't have too many educated, we have too few employment opportunities. We can argue all day as to why that is. For you it will always be some liberal flaw. And while I will concede that liberals have their flaws, they number no more than conservative flaws.

Well, that's an interesting trick in semantics. Too few employment opportunities, yes, I like that. Well, just as soon as you figure out a way to snap your fingers and create jobs let me know. Until then, you're just using semantics to run from reality.

Here's reality:

http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2013/article/pdf/occupational-employment-projections-to-2022.pdf

You're fucked long term any way you slice it. But it's no rosey picture right now either, according to the BLS 27% jobs in the economy require a college degree. 47% of workers hold an associates or higher. You cannot create jobs at a fast enough pace to catch up, even in a boom period which this ain't.

It seems, at least to me, by your standards, that the conservatives that had been in power are no longer conservatives... I am not distancing myself from Carter, Clinton, or Obama. But several of you guys are telling me Bush wasn't one of yours. That is nonsense. Just because you don't like the smell doesn't mean it isn't your shit.

Well, actually, by your guy's standards. During the Bush years you guys screamed a certain word over and over at the top of your lungs every chance you could get. That word was NEOCON. And you were right, the neoconservative movement was distinct from conservatism, and in the words of the movement's founder Irving Kristol "a neoconservative is a liberal that's been mugged by reality".

Now could you, or West or Nowhere tell me exactly where that word NEOCON went? It seems strangely absent these days. Could it be that delineating a difference between a NEOCON and a conservative no longer serves your interests? Now, Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Wolfowitz aren't NEOCONS but run of the mill conservatives? 

So anyway, look to your own talking points from a decade ago for the answer to your question. There hasn't been a conservative in office since Reagan and just being a Republican doesn't make one a conservative. Nor does it make one a NEOCON.

Tell me, who said this: Deficits don't matter?

Every US president since WWII.

But now... you guys can't take a breath without mentioning the deficit. But your guys built the water slide we have to correct, and by some accounts that is happening... I am pretty sure you will disagree.

There's a flaw in the US political system in the form of a lack of accountability. It's easier to simply borrow and spend and hand off the bill to the next guy than it is to actually deal with the deficit. I've said a thousand times that I automatically distrust anyone that enters politics because they almost universally engage in borrow and spend regardless of political affiliation.

We have a political system designed for eventual bankruptcy because a politician cannot see beyond his or her term limit.

[SciFiAuthor]

You're daft.  So, a bunch of executives colluding to preclude and exclude competitive hiring of top talent is a Liberal problem?  You really need new textbooks.
I love how you backdoor your insane "overeducation" clarion into this conversation.  The problem isn't too few jobs or too many applicants; it's that your ilk decided to actively prevent labor from exercising its right to choose.  That's conservatism in a nutshell, your conflation aside.

Yeah, that's exactly the problem. Your incessant creation of too many people for each job has collapsed the value of educated labor. The country's degreed individuals should sue the liberals for wage theft.

Where we once had head hunting and a competitive job market that favored the educated, we now have a whole shitload of degrees, stagnant or dropping wages, and colluding companies taking advantage of the climate you created.

[SciFiAuthor]

Your avatar is well chosen because this is just spewing out of your blowhole at this point.
I love how you really believe liberalism is the ideology in power; checked the Courts or the Congress lately?  Obama really remind you of FDR? Even domestic LBJ?
Century old dead political issues?
Are there any conservatives on this board whose family haven't left them and can post sober?

You had both houses of congress for two years. You've retained one house. You have the presidency which is now in its second term and continues to appoint judges. Society does nothing but continually accept your social ideas.

But I guess anything that keeps your persecution delusion going is a good thing. Maybe Onan could help you with that, they can do a lot for blithering hysterics these days.

[onan]

You had both houses of congress for two years. You've retained one house. You have the presidency which is now in its second term and continues to appoint judges. Society does nothing but continually accept your social ideas.

Yet it is your position that liberals are in lock step.

[SciFiAuthor]

Yet it is your position that liberals are in lock step.

They are. They just seem to have trouble coming to grips that they won the election and the governance we have now is theirs. You guy seem to see Obama and the senate still as candidates fighting the evil all powerful Republican party. Though I guess you have to do that in order to snow people into voting Democrat after two terms in power.

[PB the Deplorable]

... It seems, at least to me, by your standards, that the conservatives that had been in power are no longer conservatives... I am not distancing myself from Carter, Clinton, or Obama. But several of you guys are telling me Bush wasn't one of yours. That is nonsense. Just because you don't like the smell doesn't mean it isn't your shit...

We've had exactly 2 Conservative Presidents - Calvin Coolidge and Ronald Reagan.  There has been a war within the Party between the Establishment wing and the Conservative wing going back to at least the late 1950s.  Right up to today.  It's sort of hard to miss. 

It's easy to tell who the Conservatives are - they are the ones attacked by the Media, the Democrats, and the Establishment Republicans.  They are dangerous because their ideas resonate with most of the country.  They are the intellectual heirs of the enlightenment, they are the ones upholding the principles of the founding of this nation, they are the ones that started the abolition movement, and they are the ones who pushed the Civil Rights Acts through Congress in the 50s and 60s. 

The Republican base is and has been mostly Conservative, with too many of the people getting elected (House Senate, Presidents) claiming to be Conservative during the campaign but revert to Big Government Rino's in DC.  Even Democrats - at least in competitive states or districts - claim to be some version of Conservative (fiscal Conservative, etc), even when they are not.



As far as spending and deficits, under Reagan, the taxes collected by the Federal government doubled between his first year in office and his last.  The Democrat Congress spent that increase and much more.  They held Reagan and the country hostage, refusing to go along with his priorities unless he signed their budgets. 

The times he didn't the Media accused him of 'shutting down the government'.  Whether the Republicans hold the Congress or the Presidency, they are blamed for the deficit spending.   Whether the Republicans hold the Congress or the Presidency, they are  the ones accused of 'shutting down the government'.  The Media supports ever expanding government, and lies on behalf of the Democrats.

[onan]

We've had exactly 2 Conservative Presidents - Calvin Coolidge and Ronald Reagan.  There has been a war within the Party between the Establishment wing and the Conservative wing going back to at least the late 1950s.  Right up to today.  It's sort of hard to miss. 

It's easy to tell who the Conservatives are - they are the ones attacked by the Media, the Democrats, and the Establishment Republicans.  They are dangerous because their ideas resonate with most of the country. 

Nearly the entire time the base has been mostly Conservative, with too many of the people getting elected (House Senate, Presidents) claiming to be Conservative during the campaign but revert to Big Government Rino's in DC.  Even Democrats - at least in competitive states or districts - claim to be some version of Conservative (fiscal Conservative, etc), even when they are not.



As far as spending and deficits, under Reagan, the taxes collected by the Federal government doubled between his first year in office and his last.  The Democrat Congress spent that increase and much more.  They held Reagan and the country hostage, refusing to go along with his priorities unless he signed their budgets. 

The times he didn't the Media accused him of 'shutting down the government'.  Whether the Republicans hold the Congress or the Presidency, they are blamed for the deficit spending.   Whether the Republicans hold the Congress or the Presidency, they are  the ones accused of 'shutting down the government'.  The Media supports ever expanding government, and lies on behalf of the Democrats.

well then, your party is even more inefficient than I had thought.

[PB the Deplorable]

well then, your party is even more inefficient than I had thought.

Socialism sounds good.  It really does. 

Now that the Left has taken over our schools, academia, the bureaucracy, and especially Big Media, too many people are mis-educated and filled with BS.  It's a lot to overcome.

[onan]

Socialism sounds good.  It really does. 

Now that the Left has taken over our schools, academia, the bureaucracy, and especially Big Media, too many people are mis-educated and filled with BS.  It's a lot to overcome.

probably impossible. and I am not trying to goad you.

Look, I dunno what to tell you guys. Your message doesn't translate. You would think your strategy would change. Rand Paul suggested to back off the voter fraud issue, because it is a non issue and he may lose republican support for that. You can blame the media, academia, or whatever... it isn't getting you very far. The country is changing and not in a way that you like...

I'm tired and need to get to bed...

[Gd5150]

Socialism sounds good.  It really does. 

Now that the Left has taken over our schools, academia, the bureaucracy, and especially Big Media, too many people are mis-educated and filled with BS.  It's a lot to overcome.

Your assessment is spot on. An even bigger problem is the dying middle class. Until we have real term limits, and a government run by middle class working people, we can continue to enjoy the ultra wealthy making themselves richer and the expense of the entire country. Really doesn't matter which party is in control anymore. Republicans raise taxes and spending, Democrats raise taxes and spending more.

[b_dubb]

Now that the Left has taken over our schools, academia, the bureaucracy, and especially Big Media, too many people are mis-educated and filled with BS.  It's a lot to overcome.

After 8 years of Reagan? And 12 years Bush?

[West of the Rockies]

Paperboy, you say conservative ideas resonate with most of the country and that the Republican base is mostly conservative.  Yet you say we have only has two true conservative presidents.  Maybe you are over-estimating the number of cons or the power of their ideas.

[PB the Deplorable]

well then, your party is even more inefficient than I had thought.

How about the Dems.  10-15 years ago they were mostly 'Liberals' (not the classical Jeffersonian kind - the tax and spend kind) - they were a lot like the Republicans except they were for a somewhat larger safety net and higher taxes to pay for it.

Sure they were naïve and full of terrible ideas, but the Libs more or less supported our system of government and system of free exchange, and were at least trying to make our country better.


The people formerly in the alleys and outskirts - the Communist Party USA members, the San Francisco/Berkeley-type troublemakers, the Liberal Left, the 'card carrying members' of the ACLU and other pressure groups, they've finally managed to take the Party over at the national level and re-christen themselves 'Progressives'. 

They don't mean well.  They don't support our system of government or system of free exchange.  They hate us, our culture, our history, and our country.  They tell us everyday.

By pretending to be for what the Liberals are for - and with a big assist from the Media - the Progressives were able to seize the party.  The former rank-and-file Libs now claim to be 'Progressives' too.  With Obama leading the way - again naively and with little or no thought - they've joined the Liberal Left/'Progressive' Fascists in destroying the country. 

[PB the Deplorable]

Paperboy, you say conservative ideas resonate with most of the country and that the Republican base is mostly conservative.  Yet you say we have only has two true conservative presidents.  Maybe you are over-estimating the number of cons or the power of their ideas.

Look at the polls on various issues.

[West of the Rockies]

Push polls proliferate poppycock.

[SciFiAuthor]

I'm a little more cynical than Paper. I think that in the past, yeah, people were more conservative. It's actually a very natural thing to want to be in control of your own life and not have a government taking your money and telling you what to do. But the media's power was too great, and enough false wedge issues developed to where people were scared into thinking that if they weren't liberal, everyone was going to die of global warming or unsustainability or that we were close to running out of resources. A negativity developed in the culture where a can do attitude was replaced with a must not do attitude and now leftwing political ideology depends on guilt to keep it all going. Guilt is a powerful thing, as the religions once knew.

So now people are more liberal by force. They live in a world where every day they fear that they might say the wrong thing at the water cooler and be called into HR and fired. They are bombarded by the media with the liberal agenda, and for the lowest IQ something for nothing always seems to be offered to keep the votes flowing. All the while tired old divisive rhetoric is tossed to create an atmosphere of animosity between the haves and the have nots, just like it was during the French revolution and the days of Lenin.

I said in another thread a long time ago that we were in serious danger of a one party system because the left refuses to question itself. You guys bow to authority while claiming not to, yet you'll elect people that openly say that your life will degrade under their stewardship. You will live with less so that the earth will be better off. Your children even less than that. And you actually vote for it. If anyone asks why, or questions the underpinning theories such as climate change, they are subject to undue derision and denunciation much like Mao's cultural revolution did to those that even slightly didn't tow the line. You're one step from dunce caps and public parades. Don't believe me? Look at your own posts in this community ask yourself why you act like that. That means you Onan, Cat and Nowhere. You always start the ad hominems, often from the get go when debating with me. Why? Why do you feel compelled to do that? I respond to that shit in like kind because the best way to expose an idiot calling you an idiot is to call him an idiot back in a better worded way than he did, but I don't start it as a rule. 

People are liberal because you've made them fear being anything else. Why must you be the thought police? It's about time all of you started questioning that. If you don't, then you're now every bit as conservative as the conservatives. You just don't realize that you're conservative in method and ideology to past ideologies like Nazism, Communism and French Republicanism instead of Washington, Jefferson and Franklin.

But, you know, none of that really matters. It's all about those fucking rich people, the god damned Christians, and the FACT that Michael Moore believes Cuba's healthcare system is better than ours. Why not try being a real progressive instead of a hypocrite? Why not question it all, every fucking last thing?

[West of the Rockies]

I suppose, SciFi, that some liberals utilize fear as a weapon, but you surely won't suggest that conservatives don't do the same.  All I hear out of most on the far right is fear-mongering.  We have been told for decades now that "they're coming for our guns; they're gonna ban Christmas; you can't buy ammo anymore; you can't kiss your wife in public because it will offend the gays..." And on and on.  Fear is a weapon; your last post made that abundantly clear.

[West of the Rockies]

Speaking of fear as a weapon, the banner I see on this page reads, "Don't like redistribution?  Then you're going to hate confiscation!"  (Courtesy of some right wing knuckleheads.)

[qaddisin]

I suppose, SciFi, that some liberals utilize fear as a weapon, but you surely won't suggest that conservatives don't do the same.  All I hear out of most on the far right is fear-mongering.  We have been told for decades now that "they're coming for our guns; they're gonna ban Christmas; you can't buy ammo anymore; you can't kiss your wife in public because it will offend the gays..." And on and on.  Fear is a weapon; your last post made that abundantly clear.

But to them it's not fear-mongering, because it's the truth. They know that once the liberals have achieved their Marxist utopia, they will be as much as Christians in Nero's Rome. In their minds, they're persecuted because they hold the moral high ground.

I don't like delving into politics very often, I find it depressing and have other things to worry about. But I'm tired of people being called lazy, stupid, or criminal because they're poor or bad things have happened to them. I'd rather my tax money go to feeding hungry people than to corporate welfare, or to ensuring medical care for people than bringing democracy through a barrel of a gun. And that makes me a filthy, stupid, unpatriotic liberal who wants to see conservatives suffer for just being rich and white.

[SciFiAuthor]

I suppose, SciFi, that some liberals utilize fear as a weapon, but you surely won't suggest that conservatives don't do the same.  All I hear out of most on the far right is fear-mongering.  We have been told for decades now that "they're coming for our guns; they're gonna ban Christmas; you can't buy ammo anymore; you can't kiss your wife in public because it will offend the gays..." And on and on.  Fear is a weapon; your last post made that abundantly clear.

Sure, they use fear. It's usually in reaction (or over reaction) to some policy or incident. That's a bit different than what you guys have set up. Say one politically incorrect thing at the water cooler and you get canned. Work is a place of fear. Go home and turn on the TV and the media bombards you with liberal fear. Home is also a place of fear. People are drenched in liberal fear and guilt from the time they wake up to the time they go to sleep.

[wr250]

Are there any conservatives on this board whose family haven't left them and can post sober?

no.

[West of the Rockies]

SciFi, you asked the libs here to explain what happened to the Neocons... 

Well, first you (through a quasi-humorous quotation) suggest that Neocons were actually liberals.  I assure you, no liberals believe that assertion to be true.  To answer the question though, their policies and character were exposed; hence conservatives and Repubs alike (since you draw a distinction) distanced themselves from the taint of Bush/Cheney.  Replacing the power and authority of the Neocons, the TP Nation, it's hour come round at last, slouches towards Washington (to the detriment of all).

I doubt they'll achieve much... I see Jeb is hinting about '16.  I think he will be the Repub nominee.  Will the fun ever stop?

[SciFiAuthor]

SciFi, you asked the libs here to explain what happened to the Neocons... 

Well, first you (through a quasi-humorous quotation) suggest that Neocons were actually liberals.  I assure you, no liberals believe that assertion to be true.  To answer the question though, their policies and character were exposed; hence conservatives and Repubs alike (since you draw a distinction) distanced themselves from the taint of Bush/Cheney.  Replacing the power and authority of the Neocons, the TP Nation, it's hour come round at last, slouches towards Washington (to the detriment of all).

I doubt they'll achieve much... I see Jeb is hinting about '16.  I think he will be the Repub nominee.  Will the fun ever stop?

Actually, I asked how Bush went from being seen as a NEOCON in your guy's minds to apparently now being seen as a run of the mill conservative. There seems to have been a talking points switcheroo on the left since Bush left office.

Regarding Neocons the funny thing is that their philosophical underpinnings and their history has absolutely nothing to do with conservatism but everything to do with an ideological row on the left:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-conservatism

I wouldn't doubt that the Republicans would put Jeb up. Never doubt the ability of the rank and file Republican primary voter to put a hole in their own boat. Jesting aside, I think Rand Paul already has it.

[PB the Deplorable]

... I doubt they'll achieve much... I see Jeb is hinting about '16.  I think he will be the Repub nominee...

If the Rove's of the world thought the turnout for Romney was low, they are in for a shock.  No one is going to vote for that guy, unless the D's try give us another Farrakhan.

These inside the beltway geniuses don't get it - the Media plays up people like Bob Dole, Bush II, McCain, Romney, Christie, Jeb Bush from the beginning all the way through the Primaries so the R's end up with a lousy squishy unappealing candidate, then trash them constantly during the Presidential election campaign.

It builds their name recognition, which turns into campaign volunteers and donations, which turns into them being portrayed as 'electable'.  They are not.

I'm not sure the Primary voters are going to fall for this yet again this time around, but never underestimate the scheming and damage the Establishment Rino's are capable of in order to get the nomination for one of their own again.