VIVE Le QUEBEC LIBRE

[Marc.Knight]

Then the Indians can fight each other.

The First Nations people are just sitting back and watching the colonialists fight each other. 

[WOTR]

weak.

go away.

Self-determination is the way to go.

Quebecois has determined that they are Quebecois and not Canadiaois.

But during the referendum the majority of Quebecers voted to remain a part of Canada...  Yes, the true Quebecois (in keeping with the fine traditions of those who do not get their way all over the world) blamed the "ethnic" vote and immigrants.  Despite the damned immigrants, the vote still stands and they are still part of Canada.

I saw what you did there.

Tabernak!
I thought it would slip through undetected...

[DanTSX]

But during the referendum the majority of Quebecers voted to remain a part of Canada...  Yes, the true Quebecois (in keeping with the fine traditions of those who do not get their way all over the world) blamed the "ethnic" vote and immigrants.  Despite the damned immigrants, the vote still stands and they are still part of Canada.Tabernak!
I thought it would slip through undetected...

The last referendum was decided by a handful of votes.   It was as close to 50/50 as you could get.

Keep voting until you get the desired result.

[SciFiAuthor]

I wonder why they'd even want to be separate. Canada is a really nice country with modern infrastructure, high standard of living, and a functionally democratic system. They've made the right choices as far as debt and their economy weathered the 2008 recession better than anyone else. It's one of the best possible places on Earth to be born in. Why potentially jeopardize that with independence? A language that's already preserved and enshrined officially anyway?

I don't get it.

But then I never get separatist movements. The IRA just HAD to keep fighting for a few more counties that didn't want to leave the UK, needlessly keeping Ireland a toxic shithole 50 years longer than it should have been, killing god knows how many people for absolutely nothing other than to leave one of the other nicest countries in the world to live in. A place that people will do just about anything to gain access to, including the Irish.

Humans, always looking for a way to shit in their own nest.

[SciFiAuthor]

As far as France, I have no idea how they can be considered a great ally. Their foreign policy since WWII has been based on the concept of subverting the United States while tromping around Africa shooting people to protect the cacao supply. Oh, Saddam, you need a nuclear reactor? Fuck Israel, we'll sell you one!

Thankfully Israel bombed it.

[WOTR]

The last referendum was decided by a handful of votes.   It was as close to 50/50 as you could get.

Keep voting until you get the desired result.

True... and a lot of people did not vote... I still wonder how many of the voters had any idea what they actually voted for (yes, I had to look up the question that was put to them as I did not have it committed to memory and I will put it at the bottom of the post.)  The other two major things are that Quebec would be very screwed if they vote for sovereignty as suddenly they would have to allow all of the first nations to vote for their own sovereignty (or to remain a part of Canada) once it is decided that everybody has the right to self-determination.  Suddenly, Quebec could loose 1/2 of its land.

The other great thing that happened after the referendum was the "clarity act" (yes, I had to look it up as well as I could only recall that despite the name it did nothing but muddy the waters even further.)  The clarity act says that any referendum in the future must use a "clear question" and that number of voters must represent a "clear majority."  No, there is nothing saying what a "clear majority" is (presumably substantially higher than 50%- possibly a supermajority).

This whole thing was brought about by a supreme court decision that concluded that Quebec cannot secede unilaterally under Canadian or international law. The Government of Canada would have to enter into negotiations with the Quebec government if Quebeckers expressed a clear will to secede and that the Parliament of Canada had the power to determine whether or not a referendum question was clear enough to trigger such negotiations.

Basically, as much as you might think they should leave (and perhaps they should) it is going to take a little more wrangling that it would have last time.  It was almost a one shot deal and I think that is why the idea of separation has really died down.  with a court decision that says that the government will be the ones to decide if the question was clear and to decide what a majority really is before Quebec is able to separate it has made things a little more difficult than to "just keep voting until you get the desired result" as you had suggested.

The question that the people of Quebec had to answer was worded in this way (wikipedias translation of the French question.)  You may notice it does not ask if you want to separate from Canada in any clear manner.  "Do you agree that Quebec should become sovereign after having made a formal offer to Canada for a new economic and political partnership within the scope of the bill respecting the future of Quebec and of the agreement signed on June 12, 1995?"

Does anybody believe that the majority of voters knew what the agreement said?  That they knew what type of a "political partnership" would exist at the end (since when is there a partnership once you leave the country... do they still want representatives in the federal government?)  What type of formal offer for a economic partnership are we talking?

[DanTSX]

As far as France, I have no idea how they can be considered a great ally. Their foreign policy since WWII has been based on the concept of subverting the United States while tromping around Africa shooting people to protect the cacao supply. Oh, Saddam, you need a nuclear reactor? Fuck Israel, we'll sell you one!

Thankfully Israel bombed it.

They also have a substantial space program there L Ron Dolphinberry.

So their foreign expeditions are a microcosm of American oil based fuckery?


Peaceful and responsible use of atomic energy is admirable.  At the same time, the USA was getting ready to buddy up to Iraq and give them all the nasty weapons we just sold Iran in the previous decade.  Iraq just wanted to build the middle east's largest baby formula factory and clean up the Tigris and Euphrates river.  But couldn't without carbon free power.

France also sold Israel a ton of armaments over the years until they built up their own industry based on stolen French and American technology.

They are both good allys.  And both deserve to self-determination.

[DanTSX]

True... and a lot of people did not vote... I still wonder how many of the voters had any idea what they actually voted for (yes, I had to look up the question that was put to them as I did not have it committed to memory and I will put it at the bottom of the post.)  The other two major things are that Quebec would be very screwed if they vote for sovereignty as suddenly they would have to allow all of the first nations to vote for their own sovereignty (or to remain a part of Canada) once it is decided that everybody has the right to self-determination.  Suddenly, Quebec could loose 1/2 of its land.

The other great thing that happened after the referendum was the "clarity act" (yes, I had to look it up as well as I could only recall that despite the name it did nothing but muddy the waters even further.)  The clarity act says that any referendum in the future must use a "clear question" and that number of voters must represent a "clear majority."  No, there is nothing saying what a "clear majority" is (presumably substantially higher than 50%- possibly a supermajority).

This whole thing was brought about by a supreme court decision that concluded that Quebec cannot secede unilaterally under Canadian or international law. The Government of Canada would have to enter into negotiations with the Quebec government if Quebeckers expressed a clear will to secede and that the Parliament of Canada had the power to determine whether or not a referendum question was clear enough to trigger such negotiations.

Basically, as much as you might think they should leave (and perhaps they should) it is going to take a little more wrangling that it would have last time.  It was almost a one shot deal and I think that is why the idea of separation has really died down.  with a court decision that says that the government will be the ones to decide if the question was clear and to decide what a majority really is before Quebec is able to separate it has made things a little more difficult than to "just keep voting until you get the desired result" as you had suggested.

The question that the people of Quebec had to answer was worded in this way (wikipedias translation of the French question.)  You may notice it does not ask if you want to separate from Canada in any clear manner.  "Do you agree that Quebec should become sovereign after having made a formal offer to Canada for a new economic and political partnership within the scope of the bill respecting the future of Quebec and of the agreement signed on June 12, 1995?"

Does anybody believe that the majority of voters knew what the agreement said?  That they knew what type of a "political partnership" would exist at the end (since when is there a partnership once you leave the country... do they still want representatives in the federal government?)  What type of formal offer for a economic partnership are we talking?

They should vote again.   Fuck Harper.  Fuck Ottawa.  Fuck the queen.

[Yorkshire pud]

They also have a substantial space program there L Ron Dolphinberry.

Insofar as they're partners in the European Space Agency, yes.

Peaceful and responsible use of atomic energy is admirable.

Somewhat forced on them as they have few natural resources, including gas, to generate electricity, 

[DanTSX]

Insofar as they're partners in the European Space Agency, yes.

Somewhat forced on them as they have few natural resources, including gas, to generate electricity,

They bring the most to the ESA table out of all member nations.

Launch vehicles
Tracking / Telemetry
Lauch facilities
Manufacturing the primary components of the payload

Probably more than that too.  I'm only somewhat familiar with their space program.

Not bad for a nation that didn't inherit ANY of the Nazi rocket scientists after WWII like USA, USSR, and GB did.  France got the Saarland for a bit and thats it.  Self starters.


Iraq has the resources to create and refine petroleum into turbine energy production.  But is better off exporting all oil, and relying on nuclear power sources.  Same as Iraq.  I honestly don't blame either for wishing to acquire nuclear power.   I'm a little more comfortable with Iran having that capability than I am with Iraq having that capability.  That applies to contemporary Iran as well as over the past 20 years.   I don't see Iran's nuclear power ambitions as being a threat to israel.   Too far away, too much at stake.  The sanctions are forcing radicalization.  They need to be treated as equals and before you know it, all the Iranian kids will want to be like American kids, and kick all the bearded geezers out.

[Yorkshire pud]

They bring the most to the ESA table out of all member nations.

Do they? Oh...


No they don't. Germany puts the most money in, but 20 countries are involved including Canada which is an associate member. All of them are valuable to the project.

Launch vehicles
Tracking / Telemetry
Lauch facilities
Manufacturing the primary components of the payload

Probably more than that too.  I'm only somewhat familiar with their space program.

Not bad for a nation that didn't inherit ANY of the Nazi rocket scientists after WWII like USA, USSR, and GB did.  France got the Saarland for a bit and thats it.  Self starters.

Hmmm, and not bad for a country that didn't put any resources into fighting WW2. Hardly surprising then...

[DanTSX]

Do they? Oh...


No they don't. Germany puts the most money in, but 20 countries are involved including Canada which is an associate member. All of them are valuable to the project.



Hmmm, and not bad for a country that didn't put any resources into fighting WW2. Hardly surprising then...

Thats like saying that Poland didn't put anything into WWII.

[Yorkshire pud]

Thats like saying that Poland didn't put anything into WWII.

..I know it comes as a great surprise to you, but Poland was absorbed into the Soviet Union post war...

[DanTSX]

..I know it comes as a great surprise to you, but Poland was absorbed into the Soviet Union post war...

About as voluntarily as Vichy France

[Yorkshire pud]

About as voluntarily as Vichy France

I didn't say it was voluntarily, but France's advantage was De Gaulle being the principle signatory to the (then) Common Market; a more corrupt, grasping, thieving edifice hasn't been conceived; No not even what you might think about Obama matches this group of wanton unaccountable fucking  crooks who administer it. France formed it because it was for their benefit, because the lazy fucks wanted other countries to subsidise their inefficient and dreadful agricultural industry. France are very good at grasping and taking, very poor at giving back or paying their own way. Fucks.

[Juan]

One thing about the Brits - they hold the French in proper respect.

[Yorkshire pud]

One thing about the Brits - they hold the French in proper respect.

Too fuckin right.

[DanTSX]

I didn't say it was voluntarily, but France's advantage was De Gaulle being the principle signatory to the (then) Common Market; a more corrupt, grasping, thieving edifice hasn't been conceived; No not even what you might think about Obama matches this group of wanton unaccountable fucking  crooks who administer it. France formed it because it was for their benefit, because the lazy fucks wanted other countries to subsidise their inefficient and dreadful agricultural industry. France are very good at grasping and taking, very poor at giving back or paying their own way. Fucks.

Sounds like they are better at winning than playing fair. 

Maybe Free Quebec can do the same.

[Yorkshire pud]

Sounds like they are better at winning than playing fair. 

Maybe Free Quebec can do the same.

You don't really cross reference what you type do you? On another thread you condemn socialism...Go on, guess which politically leaning government is in power in France?

[SciFiAuthor]

They also have a substantial space program there L Ron Dolphinberry.

So their foreign expeditions are a microcosm of American oil based fuckery?


Peaceful and responsible use of atomic energy is admirable.  At the same time, the USA was getting ready to buddy up to Iraq and give them all the nasty weapons we just sold Iran in the previous decade.  Iraq just wanted to build the middle east's largest baby formula factory and clean up the Tigris and Euphrates river.  But couldn't without carbon free power.

France also sold Israel a ton of armaments over the years until they built up their own industry based on stolen French and American technology.

They are both good allys.  And both deserve to self-determination.

I wouldn't call it substantial. More like a second rate part of a fifth rate space program. I don't mean to disparage the ESA, their science work is knockout. However, you know, they've been surpassed by China in capability, soon to be surpassed by India, far surpassed by NASA and Roscosmos. About the only other serious program they surpass is Japan.

No, I don't think it's a microcosm. No oil and the global economy screeches to a halt and food stops being distributed. After 3 days, all is in chaos. No cacao and Nestle posts a poor quarterly profit. Doesn't sound worth sending soldiers in and shooting Africans to me.

I love atomic energy. But that's not what Osirak was for, Saddam didn't need electrical power in a country with an enormous oil reserve that made electrical production damned nearly free. It was for producing weapons grade uranium and that's why Israel bombed it. Yes, the United States sold Saddam conventional weaponry to wage his war against Iran. It's too bad he didn't win and conquer the place, the world would be much better off now if he had.

A subversive policy is a subversive policy. Subversive policy is not the mark of a good ally. Israel is well known for spying its ass off on the US, and France has a long history of subverting American interests. Granted that Obama seems willing to spy on anyone for anything and should be impeached for it, our real allies remain clear. Our attention should be on the security and interests of Britain, Australia, Canada, Japan, Poland, Germany, Finland and Taiwan. Israel with a grain of salt and France with the expectation that we'll get screwed over the first chance they get. Turkey needs to be removed entirely from the list.

[tertiaryimam]

Turkey needs to be removed entirely from the list.

What's wrong with Turkey? They're a secular Republic with a Latin alphabet and, after Ataturk, a history of forward-thinking, European-style policies.

[Yorkshire pud]

What's wrong with Turkey? They're a secular Republic with a Latin alphabet and, after Ataturk, a history of forward-thinking, European-style policies.

Interesting times;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25516449

[SciFiAuthor]

What's wrong with Turkey? They're a secular Republic with a Latin alphabet and, after Ataturk, a history of forward-thinking, European-style policies.

Briefly. Before they were an Islamic caliphate-empire and then a maniacally genocidal group against anyone within their borders that wasn't an ethnic Turk. Lately they've done nothing but evolve towards the theocratic Islamic republic model like much of the middle east which always seems to end up against the interests of the west.

[DanTSX]

You don't really cross reference what you type do you? On another thread you condemn socialism...Go on, guess which politically leaning government is in power in France?

I seek the truth 

[DanTSX]

I wouldn't call it substantial. More like a second rate part of a fifth rate space program. I don't mean to disparage the ESA, their science work is knockout. However, you know, they've been surpassed by China in capability, soon to be surpassed by India, far surpassed by NASA and Roscosmos. About the only other serious program they surpass is Japan.

No, I don't think it's a microcosm. No oil and the global economy screeches to a halt and food stops being distributed. After 3 days, all is in chaos. No cacao and Nestle posts a poor quarterly profit. Doesn't sound worth sending soldiers in and shooting Africans to me.

I love atomic energy. But that's not what Osirak was for, Saddam didn't need electrical power in a country with an enormous oil reserve that made electrical production damned nearly free. It was for producing weapons grade uranium and that's why Israel bombed it. Yes, the United States sold Saddam conventional weaponry to wage his war against Iran. It's too bad he didn't win and conquer the place, the world would be much better off now if he had.

A subversive policy is a subversive policy. Subversive policy is not the mark of a good ally. Israel is well known for spying its ass off on the US, and France has a long history of subverting American interests. Granted that Obama seems willing to spy on anyone for anything and should be impeached for it, our real allies remain clear. Our attention should be on the security and interests of Britain, Australia, Canada, Japan, Poland, Germany, Finland and Taiwan. Israel with a grain of salt and France with the expectation that we'll get screwed over the first chance they get. Turkey needs to be removed entirely from the list.

Go watch Star Trek nerd I'm not reading that

[DanTSX]

What's wrong with Turkey? They're a secular Republic with a Latin alphabet and, after Ataturk, a history of forward-thinking, European-style policies.

Turkey is pretty neat.

[Yorkshire pud]

Turkey is pretty neat.

Which troll friendly hotel did you stay at when you last never went to Turkey?

[tertiaryimam]

Briefly. Before they were an Islamic caliphate-empire and then a maniacally genocidal group against anyone within their borders that wasn't an ethnic Turk. Lately they've done nothing but evolve towards the theocratic Islamic republic model like much of the middle east which always seems to end up against the interests of the west.

Wow.

It's almost beautiful how fucking ignorant you are.

You say to write off Turkey for the following reasons:

1. They were once an Islamic Caliphate-empire
2. Then they were a maniacal genocidal regime
3. Now they evolving towards a Theocratic Islamic Republic "like much of the Middle East"

So on the basis of number 1 and 2, wouldn't we write off Germany and Japan for their genocidal histories or quasi-Theocratic values back in the day?

Or were you just being an ignorant shit for bringing that up?

Which is it?

As for number 3, the increasing presence of Islam in Turkey's political discourse is a legitimate question, but your statement that "they've done nothing but evolve towards the theocratic Islamic republic model like much of the middle east" is ignorant in the extreme. I'm willing to bet you won't be defending this position for very long once you start getting grilled on it.

[SciFiAuthor]

Go watch Star Trek nerd I'm not reading that

Go fuck yourself attention whore. That said, Merry Christmas.

[SciFiAuthor]

Wow.

It's almost beautiful how fucking ignorant you are.

You say to write off Turkey for the following reasons:

1. They were once an Islamic Caliphate-empire
2. Then they were a maniacal genocidal regime
3. Now they evolving towards a Theocratic Islamic Republic "like much of the Middle East"

So on the basis of number 1 and 2, wouldn't we write off Germany and Japan for their genocidal histories or quasi-Theocratic values back in the day?

Or were you just being an ignorant shit for bringing that up?

Which is it?

As for number 3, the increasing presence of Islam in Turkey's political discourse is a legitimate question, but your statement that "they've done nothing but evolve towards the theocratic Islamic republic model like much of the middle east" is ignorant in the extreme. I'm willing to bet you won't be defending this position for very long once you start getting grilled on it.

Mmm, you're just naïve. That's forgivable.

Germany has shown no inkling of a return to fascism. It appears to be entirely dead within their culture, perhaps more than anywhere else in that they really seem to go out of their way to stamp it out. Same with Japan, where are the imperial aspirations? I don't see them.

Turkey on the other hand seems to be going increasingly Islamist, and Islamism is not something you can dismiss out of political correctness. It's a problem. It wants to be a problem. It screams from the top of its lungs on the pulpits of extremist clerics that it intends to be a problem for the west. That is its modus operandi. Sure, there are plenty of moderates within Islam, and more willing to live peacefully than not, but when someone within an ideology says they want you dead or defeated, you really shouldn't ignore it. You're a fucking fool if you do, that's how the world missed the rise of Adolph Hitler. We should not ignore Turkey's shift towards Islamism.

I'm absolutely willing to defend it. It's the truth, and it's nothing new. From Pope Benedict XVI's opposition to Turkey joining the EU to a great many of the EU's politicians, the thinking is that you do not EVER, under any circumstances, flirt with a dangerous ideology. Turkey is flirting with dangerous ideology as we speak. Don't believe me? Go to Ankara and get up on a soapbox and speak pro-Israel. You'll quickly see the problem.