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First Debate

Started by Ruteger, October 03, 2012, 07:46:56 PM

ziznak

I tried to watch some of it before work today but I was getting dressed and brushing teeth n shit....gonna actually site down and really pay attention to it. I want to be active in this election and I've decided that after many years wasting my right as an American to vote that I will this time around.

Quote from: RealCool Daddio on October 04, 2012, 07:40:25 PM
... And it's the affirmative action comment COMBINED with the implied anti-Arab sentiment that makes you a bigot...


Is it anti-Arab, or anti-Muslim?  No one is arguing Obama is an Arab.

Sign me up as anti-Muslim too if that means being suspicious until proved otherwise.  The stonings, cutting off each others hands and genitals, beheadings, threats and violence and, oh yeah, the hate and the terrorism.   And Obama doesn't seem to be concerned about any of it. 

Make that very suspicious.


And it is a fact that millions did vote for him specifically because he is black.

onan

Quote from: Paper*Boy on October 05, 2012, 03:08:33 AM
And it is a fact that millions did vote for him specifically because he is black.

It is also a fact that millions voted for McCain because he wasn't black.

Juan

Quote from: onan on October 05, 2012, 04:23:50 AM
It is also a fact that millions voted for McCain because he wasn't black.
That's probably correct, but I wonder if there's any evidence of it.  I personally know a number of black people who say they support Obama because he's black, but I've never heard anyone say the opposite.

The General

Quote from: onan on October 05, 2012, 04:23:50 AM
It is also a fact that millions voted for McCain because he wasn't black.
You really think so?  I don't.  But maybe I expect too much from people.

Eddie Coyle


             Blacks went 96% for Obama. With their highest turnout ever. That an allegedly diverse body going 96% for anything is lockstep idiocy. Blind loyalty to the core.

              But the McCain supporters were guilty of being the ones consumed with race? Maybe a few, but I live in one of the most notoriously racist sections of the country and the "vote McCain to keep the nigger out" mentality was few and far between...even here. But then again, McCain is a "Proddy" and not one of us, so...(just kidding ;) )

             Sure John Edwards would have received 88-90% of black vote too...but his turnout would have been at least 30-35% less.

         

Pragmier

Quote from: Paper*Boy on October 05, 2012, 03:08:33 AM
And it is a fact that millions did vote for him specifically because he is black.

Quote from: Eddie Coyle on October 05, 2012, 09:49:25 AM
             Blacks went 96% for Obama. With their highest turnout ever. That an allegedly diverse body going 96% for anything is lockstep idiocy. Blind loyalty to the core.

              But the McCain supporters were guilty of being the ones consumed with race? Maybe a few, but I live in one of the most notoriously racist sections of the country and the "vote McCain to keep the nigger out" mentality was few and far between...even here. But then again, McCain is a "Proddy" and not one of us, so...(just kidding ;) )

             Sure John Edwards would have received 88-90% of black vote too...but his turnout would have been at least 30-35% less.

         

I agree with the above. But there's more. Replace Obama with a Clarence Thomas or Herman Cain and I suspect the 96% figure would have been greatly diminished; the black community may even have shown greater support for the "right" white candidate (possibly Edwards as you mention).

Also, the historic nature of the 2008 election cannot be understated. Never in our history could a black parent honestly tell their child "you can be anything you want". Now they can. If and when another African American gets a chance he won't be unique.

Eddie Coyle

Quote from: Pragmier on October 05, 2012, 10:29:02 AM

Also, the historic nature of the 2008 election cannot be understated. Never in our history could a black parent honestly tell their child "you can be anything you want". Now they can. If and when another African American gets a chance he won't be unique.

      I split more hairs than an OB/GYN, but technically "African Americans" still can't claim that one of their sons and daughters was elected president. He's the son of an African who never became American and a white woman. So even the sanguine Hallmark version has a major wet blanket.But I have colleagues who think Obama "is from Chicago"...like he's from Cabrini-Green or something.

       I'm very interested in voter turnout this year. It feels to me to be less than 2008, how much I don't know...which is always a plus for the GOP. But still Romney ain't Reagan, and there's no true sustainable movement behind him.

     

         

analog kid

Quote from: Pragmier on October 05, 2012, 10:29:02 AM
I agree with the above. But there's more. Replace Obama with a Clarence Thomas or Herman Cain and I suspect the 96% figure would have been greatly diminished; the black community may even have shown greater support for the "right" white candidate (possibly Edwards as you mention).

Also, the historic nature of the 2008 election cannot be understated. Never in our history could a black parent honestly tell their child "you can be anything you want". Now they can. If and when another African American gets a chance he won't be unique.

It was interesting watching the evolution of the black community's reaction to Obama. They couldn't imagine there was a chance in hell of his electability at one time, and a lot were skeptical of the man. I remember a black professor saying he could never get elected and complaining about how his inflections changed when he talked to a predominantly black audience, to that of a minister. But once things started snowballing for the campaign, they got on board 100%. Don't really see anything wrong with that. If the roles were reversed, and it was the first white man in US history who had a chance at the White House, we'd do the same thing.

Pragmier

Quote from: Blinko on October 05, 2012, 12:11:23 AM
do any of you actually believe you are a member of a race , or a culture. I find the idea silly , but people obviously cling to it.

You see there is apparently this group that you belong to and with that supposed membership come benefits and others who are not part of it are apparently a threat to your membership status and benefits for many reasons.

They want to enter your special club uninvited and unjustly take advantage of these things you think you enjoy as member

OR

They want to start their own club on your turf and when that club takes over suddenly you wont be a member of the cool club anymore.

The whole thing is absurd.

Neither of you arguing the racial, cultural counterpoints belong to anything. You are both ultimately on your own , all you have is your own mind and its contents.

When you portray yourself as some agent of these nebulous groups you serve only to disempower yourselves while taking on the inevitable burden of the flaws associated with these groups.

I am a so and so < insert group name here > and as such the argumentative counterpoint is already prepared just apply it to me and I will reciprocate.

are you an individual or not?

Is this just a means of sparing yourself the trouble of any intellectual heavy lifting? So you just absorb the narrative that you believe applies you to and go about defending it.

All ridiculous and counter-productive.

There are real issues at hand arent there? how about abandoning isms and just applying your intellect to the discussion.

I like the spirit of this post. This article shows just how nonsensical race issues can get.

Juan

How can you promote yourself as a victim if you are not a member of a race or culture?

ACE of CLUBS

Does it really matter if  Democrat or a Republican is the President?
It wouldn't matter if the Pope (Evil Clown) or Bozo (the chimp) were the President, the fact is that America has let it's industry go off-shore for the last 40 years. Research and Development is mostly gone, third world countries are making the goods Americans used to make, and mom & pop are buying foreign stuff because they can't find or pay the higher price for the American equivalent. 


How does anyone turn all that around in a four year term?
How do you get the American citizen to demand and pay a higher price for domestic goods?
The Republican/Democrat sideshow is an unfunny diversion...... nothing more.
Your country is fokked!

Quote from: ACE of CLUBS on October 05, 2012, 10:59:53 PM
... How does anyone turn all that around in a four year term?...


Your post is dead on.  And you didn't even mention the deficit, the national debt, the off-the-books entitlements that aren't even included in the national debt, the debt racked up by the states, cities, counties, fire districts, school districts, water districts, parks districts, all the other oards and agencies, and all the rest. 

It's going to take multiple terms and either ruining the currency or reneging on the debt to get clear again.

But yes, it does matter who the President is.  One thing sure - Obama has refuesed to even begun to address any of this.  He - aided by the big government proponents at all government levels - has exacerbated it.  Starting with an additional $6 Trillion in waste just at the Federal level.

Blinko

Quote from: ACE of CLUBS on October 05, 2012, 10:59:53 PM
Does it really matter if  Democrat or a Republican is the President?
It wouldn't matter if the Pope (Evil Clown) or Bozo (the chimp) were the President, the fact is that America has let it's industry go off-shore for the last 40 years. Research and Development is mostly gone, third world countries are making the goods Americans used to make, and mom & pop are buying foreign stuff because they can't find or pay the higher price for the American equivalent. 


How does anyone turn all that around in a four year term?
How do you get the American citizen to demand and pay a higher price for domestic goods?
The Republican/Democrat sideshow is an unfunny diversion...... nothing more.
Your country is fokked!

You bring up  a great point about industry venturing abroad rather than staying domestic and employing american workers. What we are contending with is profit , service to it , and the vested interest.

The powers that be , those who control industry , have a vested interest in insuring profit is higher and always progresses higher. You cannot achieve this through the continued employment of american workers and why would you if you are a captain of industry.

You can produce the same item for less overseas and you don't have  to honor the same labor laws, environmental laws and taxation.

In fact the government , who are beholden to this same system of honoring profit first , will help private industry accomplish this , if that private industry is powerful enough to likewise help the government through campaign funding and such. Also bare in mind these politicians are investors themselves. They don't earn their fortunes through public service.

There are clear examples of this easily researched by anyone.

GM is one clear example.

Prior to the big economic collapse in 08' GM announced  plans to move much of its production overseas . The meltdown happened, GM got bailed out ,they rebounded ( this is from memory but I believe in '10 they announced huge profits ) and subsequently announced that they would carry on with business as usual closing american plants and opening foreign ones.

This is just one example.

The most egregious case is the Export Import Bank, known as the EX/IM Bank

This bank existed as a pool of public wealth that private companies could draw from to expand their interests overseas. Sounds fine and dandy on the surface , but how it was used was down right criminal which is why the bank was abolished.

The most profitable companies in the world , GM , GE and others drew from this bank to establish production facilities overseas where they could produce the same product with the benefit of poverty wages , little or no worker rights, much more lenient environmental laws where emissions and waste are concerned and so these profitable companies could then load the corporate coffers even more with the help of EX/IM.

And it was all paid for by the american taxpayer , the same people who got laid off when these american plants closed.

http://www.progress.org/corpw30.htm

Both sides serve capital , profit , big money . They don't give two shits about the populace. We are to be controlled , manipulated, propagandized and used as chattel , nothing more.

That much should be clear

p.s. The article linked above was written by Senator Bernie Sanders.

ACE of CLUBS

Excellent post Blinko .......
Any ideas on what your country needs/should do to get back on track?
I'm Canadian, and our Prime Minister has a Masters Degree in economics ....... it helps a little bit.


Ruteger

I am voting Romney/Ryan. If Mitt wins, and can't get the job done in 4 years, I am kicking his a$$ to the curb with my vote - same as Hussein. Your skin color is irrelevant - you either get the job done or I vote for someone else who can.  >:(

Quote from: Ruteger on October 06, 2012, 12:27:29 PM
I am voting Romney/Ryan. If Mitt wins, and can't get the job done in 4 years, I am kicking his a$$ to the curb with my vote ...

How do you define 'the job'?

No one can completely fix this mess in four years - it's taken decades to get to where we are.  But they can at least start to turn things around and begin moving in the right direction.  I'd start be encouraging instead of discouraging job creation, and working on the deficit.  When it comes right down to it, about the only thing government can do to creat private sector jobs is to get out of the way.  Obama and the government are in the way.  His attitude and commentary like 'you didn't build that' shows how really clueless and just the wrong person for the job he is.

That's the thing about Obama - he has done absolutely zero to address any of this mess - even when he had the House and a fillibuster poof Senate - in fact he has execerbated it.  Now he's telling us he has a plan to fix things - why hasn't he started it?  Why doesn't the Phoney Media talk about this disconnect instead of focusing on 'fact-checking' and trying to play 'gotcha' with Romney only?

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