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October Surprise

Started by Zircon, July 20, 2012, 12:33:34 PM

Sardondi

I have to agree with the Paper Boy, Shock. "Truce flag"? Anything but. It was the web equivalent of the perennially sulky 13-year-old walking into the room with the adults, announcing that he had decided to mend his ways, but then dropping trou and farting heroically in their faces before giggling and skipping out.

Gotta hand it to you: that's about the most shamelessly passive-aggressive post ever seen in these parts. Presumptuous, smug, self-righteous and gratuitously insulting - I give it a 9.75 out of 10!

Zircon

And what thread would that be Ben? Can you provide the post number?

McPhallus

Quote from: Sardondi on August 13, 2012, 08:38:04 PM
I have to agree with the Paper Boy, Shock. "Truce flag"? Anything but. It was the web equivalent of the perennially sulky 13-year-old walking into the room with the adults, announcing that he had decided to mend his ways, but then dropping trou and farting heroically in their faces before giggling and skipping out.

Gotta hand it to you: that's about the most shamelessly passive-aggressive post ever seen in these parts. Presumptuous, smug, self-righteous and gratuitously insulting - I give it a 9.75 out of 10!

I like how he waves the white flag in one hand while giving us all the finger with the other.  I'd take him seriously if he'd drop the pompous ass routine.

The General

Awww who cares.
To Hell with it all.


stevesh

Quote from: Ben Shockley on August 11, 2012, 10:06:24 AM
stevesh -- thanks for calling me a troll and minimizing what I actually think.

You're welcome.

Can't remember who said this, but:

"But you can't diasgree that a guy should address the dumb fucks he sees..."

Oh, wait. It was you.


McPhallus

Quote from: stevesh on August 14, 2012, 05:18:02 AM
You're welcome.

Can't remember who said this, but:

"But you can't diasgree that a guy should address the dumb fucks he sees..."

Oh, wait. It was you.

I'm guessing he'll drop out of sight for a while and re-emerge a few months later (like he did before).

MV/Liberace!


so wait... the same guy who said this:

Quote
"But you can't diasgree that a guy should address the dumb fucks he sees..."


also said this?


Quote from: Ben Shockley on July 05, 2012, 03:46:01 AM
Yeah, so easy to ridicule Charlie (Manson)...  Yeah, you could have never been where he is, because you could never have been born in that circumstance and almost automatically put through that "prison as child care" deal back when he was a kid; and you could never have been made a product of the prison games and the prison system, and so at age 35 or so like when the Tate-LaBianca murders went down, you could have never been in his shoes of being a "made alpha male" because you would never have been in prison for about 19 of those 35 years.   And if by some inverse miracle, you had been put in Charlie's position throughout that life, you would have never done what he did because you are just so morally superior by virtue of DNA, environment be damned.
Right?
HaHaHa  Charlie Manson is such a punchline!!!  HaHaHa

check  www.atwa.info  for Manson related stuff, including the latest routine chucking of geriatric Charlie into the solitary hole for the slightest of reasons -- more proof, if any more is needed, as to how he is a purely political prisoner and a pure toy of the legal-control bureaucracy and industry.

Zircon

Comments like the second one you applied are troubling. Charles Manson - a "political" prisoner? I agree that he has been part of the prisoner "industry" but that is by his own doing and lawyers not allowing subhuman trash like him to have been executed way back.

Also, he mentions that he posted a less than flattering post about me "on another thread" but neglected to tell me where it was or its post number. Won't respond. Kind of cowardly in my opinion.

McPhallus

Of course Charlie is just a victim of society.  He just needs "understanding," therapy, and the right meds.  And we could've cured Bin Laden and all the terrorists if we just had enough "sympathy."

Zircon

Oh absolutely McPhallus. I recall years ago having a discussion about a guy who had just been executed by Washington state for a triple aggravated homicide.

Originally he went to prison for raping one of the eventual three murder victims. I guess he was a good prisoner as he eventually wound up in a minimum security facility. Well, he escaped. Showed up at this woman's house. Using a knife he killed her, one of her friends and the eight yer old daughter of the intended victim. He got arrested and got the death penalty. He was hung (if you don't choose then hanging is the default - injection the alternative). This friend of mine and me argued over how wrong it was to take a life - even a murderer of a totally innocent eight year old girl. Needless to say I argued for death and he argued for life. I couldn't believe this guy but his type is typical of the liberal folks in Seattle. Ben would have fit right in. Charlie would be giggling with delight had he been in Washington - probably would have been in a medium security facility after time with "good behavior".

So Charlie and this dude who eventually got hung are typical of the prisoners on the west coast. The Life of Riley compaired to say, Attica, back in New York.

stevesh

I think you can reasonably oppose the death penalty regardless of the enormity of the crime, and I do. All the usual practical arguments (cost is greater than life in prison, what about the wrongly convicted, etc.) apply, but there are philosophical and moral aspects, too.

Two quotes I like:

Capital punishment is the most premeditated of murders, to which no criminal's deed, however calculated can be compared. For there to be an equivalency, the death penalty would have to punish a criminal who had warned his victim of the date at which he would inflict a horrible death on him and who, from that moment onward, had confined him at his mercy for months. Such a monster is not encountered in private life.

-Albert Camus


It is the deed that teaches, not the name we give it.  Murder and capital punishment are not opposites that cancel one another, but similars that breed their kind.

~George Bernard Shaw

Zircon

Steve, I respect your disagreement and fully support your right to feel differently than I do. There is a certain kind of strength required in a person to hold the position you do. I mean that as a compliment.

I feel that if a person is going to kill an innocent person in cold blood and it can be proved he or she did this deed, they should expect no mercy and should forfeit their own life. Courts are charged with determining all of the circumstances of the parties involved that resulted in the death. If the perpetrator was a victimized in the past then these constitute "circumstances". Certainly not perfect but nothing is.

Juan

Then there's the argument that a killer should be killed in the same manner he killed his victim.

onan

Who is kidding who? A rather large percentage of posters here would off a homeless person in a second if they had the chance. Moral dilemmas abound, don't mislead yourselves with some imaginary high road.

MV/Liberace!

Quote from: onan on August 14, 2012, 08:06:01 PM
Who is kidding who? A rather large percentage of posters here would off a homeless person in a second if they had the chance. Moral dilemmas abound, don't mislead yourselves with some imaginary high road.


then you're not supposed to kill the homeless?

onan

Quote from: MV on August 15, 2012, 10:01:50 AM

then you're not supposed to kill the homeless?

*sigh* sadly its only legal on Thursdays.

stevesh

I don't want to kill the homeless, but I do think we should tag'em so we know where they are (sorry, Katherine Albrecht) and then dart'em when they're due to take their meds.


Sardondi

Solyent Green showed us the way to handle the homeless population.

                  "Hi, Mario. Today I'll have 5 pounds of alky, 2 of schizophrenic,
                   and a pound of junkie. Do you have any non-substance-abuser?
                   It's my husband's birthday."   


Man, that even makes my eyebrows raise, and I'm the one who wrote it.                 

Quote from: stevesh on August 14, 2012, 10:45:53 AM
... quotes I like:

Capital punishment is the most premeditated of murders, to which no criminal's deed, however calculated can be compared...

-Albert Camus



Any symphathy I have goes to the victim, the victims family and friends, the cops and jurors that had to deal with the perp.. I can't imagine the decision to commit the horryifying crimes, the complete callousness, and have nothing but contempt for these criminals.

I do think there should be another level of absolute proof before execution.

BobGrau

I'm shocked at the accusation that I might kill homeless people. It's not like they've any money or anything.

ziznak

Quote from: UFO Fill on August 14, 2012, 06:27:57 PM
Then there's the argument that a killer should be killed in the same manner he killed his victim.
BINGO!!! and the death of the murderer can if it is so chosen be carried out by a loved one of the victim... now theres some real deal eye for an eye old testament shit for ya right there! 

wait don't they already do this in most Arabic countries?  oh yeah thats right they do but for shit like adultery or stealing or... being female and driving.

b_dubb

i think if you do the homework you'll find that the death penalty is not an effective deterrent.  and if you put someone who is innocent to death there's no way to undo that mistake. what to do when the State puts an innocent person to death?  kill everyone in the State? 

i'm unequivocally opposed to the death penalty.  it provides no benefit.  it's revenge.  and i doubt that's ever given family or friends of a victim of a crime any really peace to see someone die

Quote from: b_dubb on August 17, 2012, 09:43:29 AM
i think if you do the homework you'll find that the death penalty is not an effective deterrent.  and if you put someone who is innocent to death there's no way to undo that mistake. what to do when the State puts an innocent person to death?  kill everyone in the State? 

i'm unequivocally opposed to the death penalty.  it provides no benefit.  it's revenge.  and i doubt that's ever given family or friends of a victim of a crime any really peace to see someone die

Maybe if it wasn't so random and didn't take a decade or more it would be more of a deterrent to others.  It's still a deterrent in that obviously no one put to death has killed again.  And there is always some idiot like Michael Dukakis letting people that are supposed to be in for life out to kill again.

And yes it is revenge, but so what.  It's also justice.


b_dubb

Quote from: Paper*Boy on August 17, 2012, 10:45:02 AMMaybe if it wasn't so random and didn't take a decade or more it would be more of a deterrent to others
if you served "justice" up so cavalierly then you'd almost certainly put innocent people to death.  and what then?  you never addressed that concern

if you want to be pro-death penalty just because then fine go ahead.  that's your right.  but if you want to really take a critical look at the issue then don't make flippant remarks and coarse jokes.  it doesn't do anything to develop the discussion

Quote from: b_dubb on August 17, 2012, 10:48:42 AM
if you served "justice" up so cavalierly then you'd almost certainly put innocent people to death.  and what then?  you never addressed that concern

if you want to be pro-death penalty just because then fine go ahead.  that's your right.  but if you want to really take a critical look at the issue then don't make flippant remarks and coarse jokes.  it doesn't do anything to develop the discussion

Well I'm not sure which you thought were flippant or jokes, but none of it was meant to be.  It does take forever to execute anyone.  That's why it costs so much.  Quicker would be more of a deterrent.  Judges and politicians do let people out that kill again.  Justice and revenge can co-exist.

And please see my reply #170 above where I said "I do think there should be another level of absolute proof before execution".  What that means is ok so the jury found the person guilty beyond their collective reasonable doubt, but before we execte we do need absolute proof.


Sardondi

So Ahmadinejad says the "tumor of Israel will soon be destroyed." http://news.yahoo.com/tumour-israel-soon-destroyed-ahmadinejad-091548418.html

Now we've been told here that Iran really isn't a nation which chose to be governed by a theocracy of bloodthirsty jihadists. Rather, "Iranians are like American progressives and reasonable people, after we lost a democratically-elected Al Gore in 2000 to a right-wing partly-religiously-driven coup."

Really? Well then, I guess as soon as word of Ahmadinejad's insane statement got out, all those American-progressive Iranians rose up in their masses and took to the streets to repudiate the genocidal maniac's hateful rhetoric, right?

Well, they haven't done it so far. I guess they're still a little busy, what with all the cheering Ahmadinejad's name and dancing in the street while calling for the blood of the Jewish dogs. I'm sure they'll get around to showing the world what peaceful, reasonable people they are sometime this weekend. Well, that is if they don't launch a missile or 20 at Tel Aviv first. 

b_dubb

Quote from: Paper*Boy link=topic=3258.msg76480#msg76480
And please see my reply #170 above where I said "I do think there should be another level of absolute proof before execution".
when do we EVER have absolute proof of anything in life? and can you absolutely trust lab results? in NC they may have to reverse decisions on years of cases because the lab techs were fudging results to help build cases for prosecution. basically falsifying evidence.

you want expediency and absolute proof. the two are exclusive


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