Mysterious Disappearances - your theories

[ziznak]

I just found my favorite bigfooter editorial in regards to MK... lol... I'm sorry but I find this video hilariously funny.  The dude in the vid is Henry May and he's a blogger, podcaster, and you-tuber that specializes in sasquatchery.  I like his videos, podcasts and overall Henry is a pretty cool dude... a little eccentric yes, but he's normally a pretty up beat guy that just loves his bigfoot.  He is like totally losing his shit in this vid tho and you can tell he's sooooo pissed. 


Current thoughts on M.K. Davis Part 1
He's also actually interviewed Paulides in his blogtalk radio show he used to host... he's had Jeff Meldrum on as well as many other big names in the bigfooting world.  Here's that link too:
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/hbms-crypto-corner

[BigDave]

Those people could have been responsible in the past for the disappearances of Judge Crater and Jimmy Hoffa

[korrine]

Omb Ziznak your profile picture just made me spit out my tea and roar with laughter..you guys here are freaking hilarious

[ziznak]

For some reason Noory and midgets are forever linked in my psyche.

[korrine]

Bahahahahaaas. Still laughing. U guys crack me up to no end

[b_dubb]

ziznak ... why was your video awesome? i fail to see the awesome

[ziznak]

to each their own my friend.  I just found it very amusing to see ol henry get a little hot under the collar thats all.

[Iceman]

Well, I've read everyone's post including crazy Rob and decided to do my own digging, which took me several weeks...

Here are a few facts I found about Paulides
1. He never has supported the Bigfoot Massacre theory. This was a position that was pushed by another bigfoot group to try to impugn Paulides' integrity and embarrass him. Fact. You will not find any post anywhere where Paulides supports this angle on Bluff Creek. Several people have made this accusation but nobody can point to a speech, post, blog or statement where he supports this theory. Fact.

2. Paulides has stated that he has 20 years of municipal law enforcement experience. Fact. He spent the first three and a half years of his career as a police officer at Fremont Police and then transferred and spent the next 16.6 (Yes, 16.6) years at San Jose Police. Fact. He got his twenty years in the pension program and is presently receiving his police retirement. Rob, why didn't your great research find this? Are you going to apologize to Mr. Paulides?

3. Paulides was arrested for a misdemeanor count of fraudulent solicitation of a charitable contribution, allegedly getting autographs on police letterhead. Fact. Yes, Paulides was getting autographs on police letterhead, and doing that while contributing to a project for the city of San Jose art commission. Paulides was obtaining these autographs for a display the art commission was sponsoring and their representative signed an affidavit to that effect that is in the court file. The case was dismissed by a municipal court judge without going to trial. There is a notation in the file that the charge could never be re-filed. FACT. Rob, why didn't you ever get this information? Mr. Thorough and Mr. honesty??? You supposedly did such thorough research why didn't you find this??

4. I have personally researched dozens of stories in the "Missing 411" books and find the facts in each of the stories to be 100% factual.

5. Regarding the supposed flaws in the "Hoopa Project." I encourage others to read the book and then read what the supposed flaws are. Again, the attacks came from another bigfoot group and their mouthpiece. Articles I found in the Hoopa Newspaper support Paulides' book and his research. He is the only bigfoot researcher that was ever given 100% access to the reservation by their organization and they have continually supported his conclusions and his research. The information is there, just have to dig to find it.

6. Paulides writes in his book that the National park Service doesn't keep track of missing people inside their system, doesn't have lists of missing people and they wanted to charge him $34,000 for a list of missing from Yosemite and $1.4 million for a list for all throughout their system. Fact. I called the National park Service and their Regional Freedom of Information office in Denver.
**Everything that Paulides stated is FACT.

7. Paulides retired from the San Jose Police after accumulating over 20 years of California police experience. He has never been terminated from a public agency and from what I can find has never been asked to resign. His criminal record is absolutely clean.

I find it amazing that people make groundless claims against individuals without doing their homework.
Anyone can be arrested for anything, it means nothing. Rob, remember the statement "innocent until proven guilty?" Paulides is not only innocent, a judge obviously got mad at the prosecution. Cases against cops don't get dismissed even there is a large, obvious flaw in the prosecutions case, as there was here. For a cop case to get dismissed, a cop has to be blatantly innocent, it's called GROUNDLESS prosecution!

[Sardondi]

I came to this subject only because of my interest in what I had originally thought was a wonderful interview George Knapp had with Paulides this past June. I had come to Paulides defense when Rob attacked him, because I thought the grounds Rob used were petty and unsubstantiated.

But then it came to my attention that Paulides was indeed associated with the ludicrous Bigfoot massacre claim originated by M.K. Davis (something about how some of the folks associated with the iconic Patterson Bigfoot film circa 1967 were involved in "massacring" a Bigfoot "family" around the time of the film).* My soft support of Paulides instantly changed to opposition. Ordinarily I could give a rat's ass about Bigfoot lore: all I know is the field seems to attract far more liars, frauds, hoaxers and thieves than any other "alt" or "Forteana" category. But from a general love of truth I don't want to ever be on record supporting an obvious liar. So that's why I've gone to this trouble.

Now "Iceman" cometh (today in fact, as he registered apparently for the express purpose of posting his impassioned defense of Paulides - not a good sign for his credibility), and takes Rob to task for some of the same reasons I had. And as far as they go those are valid points.

But then Iceman says that poor, mute David Paulides has had his name appropriated by some unknown conspirators who wished to make it appear that he supported the Bigfoot Massacre theory, when he fact didn't. Huh?! I mean, c'mon, man. Really? Really? And I suppose for the last three years or so Paulides's family has been held at gunpoint by some shadowy pro-Massacre cartel, to ensure that he never speaks out to repudiate these so-called lies which associate him with the massacre? Because I can find no place where Paulides has ever, ever repudiated the claim that he is one of the proponents of the Massacre story.

More than that, Loren Coleman, a man who apparently has as high a reputation for credibility and fairness as it is possible to have in this community, has extensive posts discussing Paulides and how he and M.K. Davis are behind the claim that the massacre occurred. Here are some, and theyre pretty damning: http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/davis-back/; http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/renes-film/; http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/massacre-mess/.

So while Paulides has never repudiated his support of the massacre, I have found where Paulides's supporters (or maybe Paulides himself?), much like Iceman here, have gone on other Bigfoot type sites and posted this very same claim that "Paulides didn't really say that!". Except that he, uh, did.

So, Iceman (or should I say "David"?), it sounds like you folks and/or David Paulides want it both ways. Because all Paulides had to do if he thought he was being unfairly associated with the massacre claim was to say so. And he never has. Case closed.





*You've never seem such ridiculous proof: they look at grainy old film and pics and come up with a faux-NASA-style analysis worthy of Richard Hoagland and the things he
"sees" on various planets. For example, they claim they can look at the famous walking Bigfoot film and see bullet wounds and blood on the creature - I'm serious, they really do.

[Iceman]

Sarduchi, Nice try.

Do you know that Coleman gave Paulides "Bigfoot Book of the Year" for the Hoopa Project, Ha!!

Coleman has relied on his antiquated approach to bigfoot being an ape. Paulides quotes every Native American tribe, NONE believe its an ape, zero. No, Coleman stands alone as the old guard claiming with other old guard that bigfoot is an ape. Paulides goes on to quote in his books that there has never been an ape bone, ape hair, etc ever found in the wilds of North America. Go to "Bigfoot Encounters" and type in "NAPE", north american ape. The owner of that site proves that Coleman is a fraudster out to just sell his books. The link you quote again just makes allegation, it NEVER shows Paulides said anything close to a bigfoot massacre. Paulides merely is asking, repeat asking John Green a series of questions that Green won't answer. You and others like you are the issue with this bigfoot arena, and a reason I stand aside, you won't accept competent research and you deflect and ignore, ignore every point I made about Paulides, factual points.

Again, I've done my homework, no place, nowhere does Paulides make the statement you allege, nowhere! It sounds like you are bent on trying to prove his guilt rather then going towards the truth of the matter.

[ziznak]

Yeah I was never able to find any actual quotes from David in regards to the massacre.  There's nothing out there except a lot of his enemies stating that he supported and was part of MK's theory.  I really wouldn't expect him to just hop onto such a theory blind.  His questioning of Green may have just been misinterpreted as support for the theory when really he was just exploring it... like an investigator would.

[korrine]

Wowzers. Well I do have to say regardless of which side of the fence Mr Pauildes is on .. those 2 missing books were the just amazing.And the coast interviews were the only interviews I have listened to multiple times.  I hope a 3rd missing book is in the werks .. I am obsessed.  Sorry I had to come clean about that. I need 2 learn more about crypto/squach stuff

[SnoopDawgg]

Really informative and good posts, Iceman. Thanks for sharing those thoughts.

Also

Sardondi: "(Rob's) creepy, like Inspector Javert spending his whole life pursuing Jean Valjean."

I had the same thought.

Also, I second (or third or fourth?) the sentiment that the Paulides shows were some of the best C2C ever. I don't get con man vibes from Paulides in the slightest, and I think Rob should be ashamed of himself. 

[Grifynne]

Hello! I'm new to this forum, been lurking for a few days and finally decided to join when I saw this discussion. This was easily one of my favorite C2C episodes. I have been following Paulides work and I am really interested in hearing what others think about the situation.

I see there seems to be some discussion over his credibility. I feel that he seems sincere and well researched. And a lot of what is being brought up is, apparently, either petty or inaccurate. Although I would really like to hear something from Paulides on the massacre video that's been mentioned.

A couple quick things I want to mention:

-I recall on one of the Odd Disappearances C2C episodes (can't remember which), Paulides specifically mentions that someone emailed him and said he was "cherry picking cases" and "making it fit." I am curious if this Rob person is the same individual who emailed him. From Paulides' tone and the way he said it, it made me think that the person who emailed him was VERY aggressive and unkind about it. More of an insult or accusation than constructive criticism which mirrors almost exactly the way this Rob individual is approaching the issue, if there is a real issue.

-I think everyone pretty much knew that Paulides must believe at least some of the disappearances are Big Foot related. He does at one point (again I can't recall when, I need to re-listen and find where these items were mentioned) say that he feels it could be a combination of things. So perhaps he believes it's one, two or three parts sasquatch and possibly something else.

-The paradoxical undressing issue is also mentioned and, according to Paulides, he spoke to knowledgeable people (he specified where they came from but again, I'm doing this from memory so I don't recall his exact words) who disagree and feels that this is essentially a concept that is being propagandized. Initially I thought that sounded a bit dramatic, but considering how I see that there is obviously some kind of hatred or volatility within the related community, perhaps there are people that push it that far. And again, if there is truth to it, I would love to see it. Keeping in mind that you have to also explain how someone's clothing winds up neatly folded or in strange positions, or how their clothing starts coming off maybe a hundred yards from where they were last seen. Or how children who were too young or unable to undress themselves managed to strip down (as was mentioned by Paulides, I'm just paraphrasing a bit ).

Either way, I still feel that this topic is extremely intriguing, and tragic at the same time. I still have faith in what's been presented. It sounds legit, although if anyone can say otherwise I would love to see the proof. I would think that if you wanted to disprove Paulides, it would be best to show where he misrepresented or made up specific case details.  I don't know the guy personally so if he's got some kind of dark past then it's his problem not mine. What I want to know is: is his research genuine?

Oh! One more thing, whoever was saying that they were waiting for their Missing 411 books on Amazon, I thought Paulides mentioned that those would not be available through Amazon so you may be waiting a very long time. I ordered them through his website (here:   http://www.nabigfootsearch.com/catalog/item/6180213/9227229.htm although I think he has a new one dedicated to this topic but I don't know if there is a place to order the books there as well, I think it's canammissing.com). They aren't well edited but the information is generally detailed and really gets you thinking. Can't fault him for some editing issues if the facts are there.

And thanks to everyone for your input. Very interesting!

[obliv326]

I have to admit I'm in the same boat as some of the rest of you... I found the shows to be gripping radio, and sought it out to find out what I could. It's interesting that this much drama is in the background of this story.

I can't say that I find anyone here to have completely ruined the credibility of anyone else. Rob did find what seemed to be, if not necessarily omissions, then possibly less than 1000% rigorous folw up to every single case. That's fine, but I do find it odd that he gets a couple examples and then claims that this makes Mr. Paulides a FRAUD and a LIAR (or was it CON MAN? I can't recall)

And for what its worth, I do find Mr Paulides to be very compelling as well. I did want to reiterate that, despite Rob's vociferous protests (and I am not attacking Rob. Don't know him, and don't immediately dismiss everything he's saying out of hand, although he does seem to be going a little far with a few bits of essentially loose thread), Mr. Paulides does very directly address paradoxical undressing. He accepts that this may happen, but it does not seem to account for a few of the weird cases... the ones where the clothes are folded, or the pants are removed and dropped straight down, as opposed to being pulled off and thrown aside like you might expect a person in panic to do. He also addresses the fact that sometimes they are removed within yards of the place where they were last seen, and that would not seem to indicate hypothermia, since it would have to set in so quickly.

I would say even if all of these cases do not necessarily fall under "odd disappearances" and there might be an apparent stretch to make them so, there are still several compelling cases that ARE odd, and those, to me, are worth investigating. Like Mr Paulides said, even if it's just one case, that family's life was destroyed. The case deserves to be investigated to the best of the LEA's ability.

I also did find it interesting that Mr. paulides seemed to specifically go out of his way NOT to implicate bigfoot. It seemed, to me, that he knew he came with this baggage, and specifically wanted to make certain that he was NOT giving this indication. I would go so far as to suggest that he personally does not believe this to be the case, although his refusal to put forth a theory does not rule it out.

My feeling was that the relation between the two was only coincidental. While investigating one, he came across the other, and was so affected he looked further and happened to come across these cases, which would not be connected outside of someone with this approach. I know I'm not adding a whole lot here, but I do think that IMO this was all he was bringing to the discusiion.

Now, as for the bigfoot massacre story, I want to understand the reason this disqualifies him as far as these disappearances are concerned... according to the one poster (and please forgive me I forgot your name and didnt want to stop my frail mind's thought process to go back and look...), and please correct me if this is not the theory you are presenting... he is a con man bc he believes that Gimlin and Patterson were slaughtering bigfoot when the footage was taken. Now, does he condone this behavior? If so, then I am assuming the theory is that he writes this book to suggest bigfoot are all killers who we are right to hunt down and destroy, correct? If he does not condone the slaughter, then I'm not sure, other than the idea that he's a crackpot, tin foil hat wearing loony, how this discounts his missing 411 theories.

nonetheless it was great radio. And I love this forum. I used to love c2c, but if i have to listen to one more show about crystals or some other hippie dippie nonsense... anyway, my .02 there...

but seriously... crystals?

[ziznak]

RE: bluff creek bigfoot massacre
The only thing that ties Paulides and the massacre was his association with MK Davis.  The theory is MK's.  MK is also responsible for his great stabilization of the PG film.  He's also got some very good analysis of different images from the film that seem to prove that the subject is not a man in a suit.  If you check out MK's you-tube site http://www.youtube.com/user/Greenwave2010fb?feature=g-all-u you'll see he's a bit of a bigfoot eccentric.  At one time he was very respected in the world of sasquatchery... before the massacre theory of course.  I can only assume that Paulides was associated with him before hand and then was attacked when he didn't immediatly write off the massacre theory.

I actually watch all of MK's videos and enjoy them a lot... most of the time it's because I find them ridiculously funny.  Apparently MK has a giant backlog of old VHS bigfoot video that he's going through... hence we have seen glimpses of the albino bigfoot aka "whitey" and some audio capture of the sasquatch language.  See the "enoch ya" video.  "Enoch" means "humans" in squatch.

[korrine]

My hat sure goes off to Mr. Paulides..he has brought to light the facts of some rather bizarre circumstances surrounding the dissappearances of quite alot of people in our NPS.  I love the fact that he doesn't suggest what happened (who or what is causing these dissappearances).. only the facts surrounding the cases...there is an undeniable something afoot..I read both west and east missing books.. amazing. I hope there will be a third! I wonder how many of these cases could be prevented if people only knew what is going on in our nps

[onan]

I haven't read anything of Paulides' works. But to add some level of mystery to missing persons in national parks is pandering, if anything more is suggested than national parks are the wild.

Even though most of us live in relative safety from the dangers of the wild, when one leaves that safety, nature doesn't give a fuck if you have an appointment on tuesday.

From a spider bite to a hungry/angry bear you take your chances setting a tent in a national park. It is that simple.

[Sardondi]

I haven't read anything of Paulides' works. But to add some level of mystery to missing persons in national parks is pandering, if anything more is suggested than national parks are the wild.

Even though most of us live in relative safety from the dangers of the wild, when one leaves that safety, nature doesn't give a fuck if you have an appointment on tuesday.

From a spider bite to a hungry/angry bear you take your chances setting a tent in a national park. It is that simple.

Exactly. The facts of the disappearances, whatever they are and whether or not they've been recounted completely and accurately by either Paulides or the NPS and/or law enforcement, are irrelevant to the power of nature. As we become ever more urbanized (just count back how many generations each of us is from living an entire life on the farm...or even merely being raised as a youth on a farm: 3 generations? 4? 6?) many of us now have had no contact with any family member who has any more experience with nature than going to the zoo and watching the Discovery Channel.* We have replaced religious faith with a belief in technology and government, and thus many of us feel we're immune in our protected, techie cocoon, even in the wilderness. The wonder is not that people disappear in National Forests, but that it doesn't happen more.


* I don't think I'll ever forget the video of a tourist to the African veldt who actually left his family in the car to approach on foot and film a pride of lions resting under shade. Many of you, as I, will remember the heartbreaking screams of his children as they watched their father literally eaten alive for his breathtaking arrogance in the face of nature.

[Juan]

I have friends in Alaska who say there is a big problem with tourists trying to walk over to bears and moose to have their pictures taken.

[ziznak]

I'll be looking for that video as I don't think I've seen it yet... I've watched just about every animal attack video I can find they're my favorites in the death video genre. 

As for never underestimating the power of nature there are also many inner city areas where a misplaced republican can find themselves disappearing... eaten alive by the local liberal tribes. 

NOTE:  "republican" is in no way code for "cracker" nor is "liberal" to be misconstrued as code for "North American Neegro"

[Sardondi]

I'll be looking for that video as I don't think I've seen it yet... I've watched just about every animal attack video I can find they're my favorites in the death video genre....

It was at least 5 years ago, and may have been more. For some reason I remember thinking the man was British. I suspect that YT's recent nannyish stance is the reason you can't find it (they even ban some "zit" vids as violative of their policy against not-niceness). As for the "death vids", I can't watch 'em. It was an accident that I saw the lion vid I'm talking about. Too much reality. Think I'll go watch a Disney cartoon.

*edit* Aha. Looks like it might have been a fake - http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=13428

Here's just a short clip of the vid itself. Haven't found the rest. Snopes does bring up some good points pointing to fakery.
Lion Safari Attack

[Grifynne]

While I totally agree that many people underestimate the wild and do stupid things and wind up dead or missing (or both) because of it, I still think there's some credence to the cases Paulides outlines. Some could fall into that category because of lack of information but there are some that are very eerie and, if taken as 100% fact (which I have no reason at this point to believe he embellished any facts in any of the cases), don't mesh with the idea of misadventure/stupidity.

Some cases have very odd elements, like people disappearing right under the noses of others. Strange weather patterns surrounding disappearances. Children or disabled people being found WAY outside of the projected search grid, a feat that is considered physically impossible unless they had help. There was more than one case with a very young child (under the age of 3 or 4 I believe) that managed to go over multiple mountain ranges just to die miles away on a ledge or under a log somewhere in the middle of nowhere. These are places that would be difficult for a determined adult to get to. In other cases, a toddler somehow manages to cross a deep river or swamp area that, had they actually done it on their own, should have drown them. Instead they are found on the other side, often deceased, but not from drowning. It's usually exposure. Another case involved a boy (I think he was a boy scout) and somehow his pack was taken in the middle of a strong river, opened up with its contents neatly organized on a rock while he was found dead (from exposure) on land.

Another individual was at the end of a line of road workers who were done for the day on a rural stretch of road. He wasn't far away and should have been in sight the whole time (from what I understood) and when they turned around he was gone. They found a boot and the contents of his pockets (coins) laying on the ground around a very high fence that bordered a woodland area. From the scene, it really sounded like somehow this guy was hit by something hard that picked him up, carried him sideways (literally horizontal with the ground) then climbed or lept the high fence and took off with him. Much later his other boot was found deep in the nearby wilderness (I want to say it was swampland or something like that). That was the gist of it. Very strange  if the story is to be believed.

Everyone can have their opinions and I completely agree that people do ridiculous things that sometimes end their lives unexpectedly. Although as was already proven, that video was a fake (I find it hard to believe someone could be so tremendously ignorant but I wouldn't say its impossible). That was also not during our 'high tech' times when everyone's face is buried in an iPhone or computer, although I understand your point there. 

I suppose I'm half agreeing. I think you are correct to some extent, but I think there are also some strange cases that aren't normal and don't fit into the blanket "human beings get stupid in the woods and die" idea. I don't think that covers every single case highlighted by Paulides. Some probably could be placed in that category, but the ones that (I feel) can't be are very intriguing and really seem to indicate something more is going on. Unless it comes to light that he lied about all case details and made the whole thing up, then I tend to believe something strange is happening that we don't understand yet.

Disclaimer: I apologize for not recalling all the names or location details. If you're curious, I highly suggest looking it up in Paulides' book or listening to one of the interviews he did discussing various cases. Or let me know and I would be happy to check my books and relay the specifics for you. My memory isn't as good as I would like it to be! I'm getting old in my 30 long years.

[ziznak]

Not to take away from Grifynne's addition to the topic at hand that I've already commented enough on BUT

the lion vid from Sardondi:

I love picking these things apart.  I matched up with the poster on the camera angles, cat attack style, and my biggest gripe, filming the family while the attack was "taking place."  People never switch off to family members while there's a good mauling going on... maybe during the aftermath they film a hysterical mother but no idiot with a camera ever tears the lens from the action... Hell these day's most jackass Iphone retards can't figure out that video looks better in landscape. This was waay too cut up.  I didn't notice the shirts changing or any of the other really damning stuff but I only watched it once.  Also, most cat attacks you see (well that I've seen and I've seen quite a few)  once they get a good grip or bite of flesh they don't let go... nor do they start eating right away until they know the prey is dead.

still I found it all very amusing

and I can't chalk all the disappearances up to mother nature...
THERE ARE NO COINCIDENCES! cmon people haven't we learned anything from Papa Snore's yet?

[b_dubb]

I live in rural Ohio now. I'm concerned about the coyotes and the possibility that there might be a big cat (panther) in the area. I like to walk around the yard at night and star gaze.  I don't do that without a flashlight and the company of three dogs. None of which spend the night outside. Because of the coyotes. Which are a real problem around here as they occasionally kill horses and live stock

[ziznak]

There really is nothing scarier than a huge cat looking at you as prey... I've often looked into my cats eyes and thought to myself... "If you were like 3 times your size you'd have ventilated my jugular and eaten the flesh off of my face wouldnt you?"

Wild dogs are pretty bad but it's that whole torture thing the cats do with prey that bothers me

[PB the Deplorable]

I live in rural Ohio now. I'm concerned about the coyotes and the possibility that there might be a big cat (panther) in the area. I like to walk around the yard at night and star gaze.  I don't do that without a flashlight and the company of three dogs. None of which spend the night outside. Because of the coyotes. Which are a real problem around here as they occasionally kill horses and live stock

The coyotes are extremely unlikely to bother you.  You're smart to keep the dogs inside at night though.  One thing the coyotes will do if you are out hiking or walking much is to attempt to entice your dogs to follow them, and lead them into an ambush of other coyotes, so consider keeping them on leash if you walk a ways..

[ChewMouse]

There really is nothing scarier than a huge cat looking at you as prey... I've often looked into my cats eyes and thought to myself... "If you were like 3 times your size you'd have ventilated my jugular and eaten the flesh off of my face wouldnt you?"

Wild dogs are pretty bad but it's that whole torture thing the cats do with prey that bothers me

ooooooooh, scary

*shivering*

[b_dubb]

I'd guess that a few big cats are responsible for some of Paulides' disappearances. Bigfoot took the rest. For a light snack

Can we get a count of all the peeps who think Bigfoot is real? Raise your hands. Btw - my hand is not raised

[McPhallus]

I live in northern Illinois, and you can sometimes hear them baying in the wee hours of the morning.  Creepy shit.

I live in rural Ohio now. I'm concerned about the coyotes and the possibility that there might be a big cat (panther) in the area. I like to walk around the yard at night and star gaze.  I don't do that without a flashlight and the company of three dogs. None of which spend the night outside. Because of the coyotes. Which are a real problem around here as they occasionally kill horses and live stock