Author Celebrity Deaths  (Read 351004 times)

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Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #180 on: May 02, 2011, 12:31:20 PM »
As a huge hockey fan, I just lol'ed my fucking ass off.  ;D



NOW THAT ROCKS!

Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #181 on: May 02, 2011, 12:33:14 PM »
From- http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2011/05/01/2011-05-01_osama_bin_laden_adolf_hitler_both_declared_dead_on_may_1.html

Osama Bin Laden and Adolf Hitler share a towering reputation for evil - and also an anniversary.

Both were declared dead on May 1.

Late on May 1, 1945 - about as late as President Obama's TV announcement Sunday - German radio announced that Hitler had fallen "fighting to the last breath against Bolshevism and for Germany."

He had actually committed suicide the day before.

In some cultures May 1 is the official beginning of summer. In many places, May Day is also Labor Day, a celebration of the working man.

May 1 is also the anniversary of President Bush's ill-conceived 2003 Mission Accomplished speech, prematurely announcing an end to combat in Iraq.

Obama, who might have used the words in his TV address, did not.

Isn't it nice to have a president with some class?

Ana

Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #182 on: May 02, 2011, 12:40:39 PM »
Too bad about that carpet.  It really tied the room together.


Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #183 on: May 02, 2011, 12:46:40 PM »
Wow, Ev, that poll is ridiculous.
Confusion? Fear? Anger?  Who did they poll?  Pakistan?

Anyway, the #1 response SHOULD have been: satisfaction.

I would have chosen satisfaction if it had been an option.  As it was, I chose fear, simply because I'm still in "oh shit, we'd better hang on to our hats now!" mode.

Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #184 on: May 02, 2011, 12:53:02 PM »
this is interesting - a poll on emotional reactions to OBL's death from the New York Daily.  Notice that "anger" is the top ranking answer.  But what does that tell you?  I imagine what it means is that thinking of OBL brings up their anger about what he stood for - but that's not clear form the poll.

It kinda makes me want to think  ;)
Wow, Ev, that poll is ridiculous.
Confusion? Fear? Anger?  Who did they poll?  Pakistan?

Anyway, the #1 response SHOULD have been: satisfaction.

Poll makes perfect sense when you consider their, New Yorkers, perspective. They are being forced to eat another shit sandwich and they are pissed.


Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #185 on: May 02, 2011, 12:53:58 PM »

and Onan hits one out of the park!

Quote
The offering of respect is certainly the honorable course. But, and I could be wrong, I think those we are trying to impress will see the gesture as hollow.
 

He was buried at sea - and I'm sure there will be all kinds of conspiracy theories surrounding that.  but, according to a White house spokesperson, the purpose was to avoid having a particular spot that anyone could worship at OR desecrate.  (which makes sense to me)

however, conservative clerics are making all kinds of noise - despite that fact that there is nothing in Islamic law that forbids sea burrial (though it's usually reserved for those who die at sea)

Oh well - no matter what - some faction was gonna bitch.

Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #186 on: May 02, 2011, 12:54:42 PM »
Poll makes perfect sense when you consider their, New Yorkers, perspective. They are being forced to eat another shit sandwich and they are pissed.

sorry to be so dim, but could you expand on that please?

Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #187 on: May 02, 2011, 12:58:36 PM »
sorry to be so dim, but could you expand on that please?

No, not dim. I does require an explanation for anyone that doesn't live in New York. I just don't have the time right now to get into it. I promise to explain myself later tonight.

Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #188 on: May 02, 2011, 02:56:58 PM »
sorry to be so dim, but could you expand on that please?

911 was New York's disaster. The have a more intimate perspective. They lived it and the aftermath. A high percentage feel they were lied to and that the government did 911 . So they are pissed to begin with. And now, they have to listen to "we killed Osama". They feel they are being lied to again. If you look at the percentage of people that are angry in that poll, it is about the same percentage of New Yorkers that believe 911 was an inside job. To sum it up, it's all shit to them.   

Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #189 on: May 02, 2011, 03:11:22 PM »
And/or they feel that by killing him, it is still more covering up of the crime. Complex feelings, but the dynamic is born from what they believe and what percentage believe it.

Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #190 on: May 02, 2011, 03:29:44 PM »

No we shouldn't become what we despise. The offering of respect is certainly the honorable course. But, and I could be wrong, I think those we are trying to impress will see the gesture as hollow.
i don't think it's honorable to offer respect blindly just because you fear the people to whom you are offering respect.  furthermore, the arab world won't see this as a "hollow" gesture.  they'll see it as weakness. 


americans have a lot of work to do if they're going to understand how the arab mind works.  they do not think as we do.

Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #191 on: May 02, 2011, 03:32:51 PM »
911 was New York's disaster. The have a more intimate perspective. They lived it and the aftermath. A high percentage feel they were lied to and that the government did 911 . So they are pissed to begin with. And now, they have to listen to "we killed Osama". They feel they are being lied to again. If you look at the percentage of people that are angry in that poll, it is about the same percentage of New Yorkers that believe 911 was an inside job. To sum it up, it's all shit to them.

ah! thank you - i get it.

Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #192 on: May 02, 2011, 03:39:11 PM »
Well, think about it.
Have you ever seen them in the same room?
I thought not.

Maybe this was Art's big announcement.

+1...Check this out:

http://whatreallyhappened.com/

Looks like America regularly jams internet sites when they want their stuff to pop up first with searches.

Ana


Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #193 on: May 02, 2011, 03:44:44 PM »
i don't think it's honorable to offer respect blindly just because you fear the people to whom you are offering respect.  furthermore, the arab world won't see this as a "hollow" gesture.  they'll see it as weakness. 


americans have a lot of work to do if they're going to understand how the arab mind works.  they do not think as we do.

         Exactly, the British never quite understood this, The French either..so on,so forth. We need to stop trying to "Americanize" the rest of goddamn world. We need to stop buying into the mythology of "All Men are created equal", we're not, there are major divides in cultures,mores etc-putting a McDonalds in Mauritania doesn't make them "Westernized". This is nonsense from the days of McKinley,TR,Wilson...

Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #194 on: May 02, 2011, 03:50:09 PM »
i don't think it's honorable to offer respect blindly just because you fear the people to whom you are offering respect.  furthermore, the arab world won't see this as a "hollow" gesture.  they'll see it as weakness. 


americans have a lot of work to do if they're going to understand how the arab mind works.  they do not think as we do.

Respect is always honorable. Fearing something is not. It is funny how our judeo-christian belief systems muddy that fact. Instead of respect we should fear god. so it comes as little surprise to me that some would think respect out of fear is of some value. I guess if you are in a pasture and a bull is charging you, fear and respect are close cousins.
 
And I completely agree that we need to understand others belief systems. So much easier said than done.

Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #195 on: May 02, 2011, 04:22:44 PM »

Respect is always honorable. Fearing something is not. It is funny how our judeo-christian belief systems muddy that fact. Instead of respect we should fear god. so it comes as little surprise to me that some would think respect out of fear is of some value. I guess if you are in a pasture and a bull is charging you, fear and respect are close cousins.
 
And I completely agree that we need to understand others belief systems. So much easier said than done.

I am not a theologian, I just sometimes play one on the web  ;)

but, i do know that translation is often an issue. for example - we are taught that there is a commandment "do not kill" when in fact many say that more accurate is "do not commit murder" - so, acts of war, self defence, judicial execution etc . . . do not come under this rule, no matter how much some would like us to think so.

in this case, I suspect that in modern terms "fear god" would be more like "respect god" - as we respect electricity, guns, and other tools that are good but CAN do harm if we treat them casually (not that God is a tool - though we often think of god that way  ??? our mystical, magical backup system)

Just a thought.

Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #196 on: May 02, 2011, 05:25:05 PM »
I am not a theologian, I just sometimes play one on the web  ;)

but, i do know that translation is often an issue. for example - we are taught that there is a commandment "do not kill" when in fact many say that more accurate is "do not commit murder" - so, acts of war, self defence, judicial execution etc . . . do not come under this rule, no matter how much some would like us to think so.

in this case, I suspect that in modern terms "fear god" would be more like "respect god" - as we respect electricity, guns, and other tools that are good but CAN do harm if we treat them casually (not that God is a tool - though we often think of god that way  ??? our mystical, magical backup system)

Just a thought.

Sorry for being contrary. Perhaps I overstated. Again I speak from my cultural setting where I hear pontifications daily from workers that make the statement that they should fear god. Not quite so bluntly but the drift is there.
 
It all seems like hokum to me but a vast majority think differently. so who am I to say anything more than I don't know.

Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #197 on: May 02, 2011, 05:51:05 PM »
On the subject of Bin Laden's sea burial I'd like to post another point of view.  I don't think it has anything to do with respect of religion or cultures, and I'm sure no one is fooled.  I bet no one on the USS Carl Vinson, in the rest of the military, or in the governtment as a whole wanted a respectful burial of Bin Laden of all people.

It is about reducing the level of martyrdom he will have.  Think about the things that have happened to US soldiers and contracters in Iraq and Afghanistan over the past 10 years.  Which events caused the biggest reaction back in the states?  It's usually the videos and photographs of dead, burned US soldiers being dragged through the streets, beheadings of reporters, and POWs being abused that get the biggest reactions from what I've seen.  Apply that in reverse now to think about what would create even more recruits for al queda.  Bin Laden will be a martyr to some people no matter what but why exasberate that and create even more enemies.

Al queda and other groups of it's sort make heavy use of propaganda to fool ignorant people into joining their cause.  Even this 'proper burial' will be spun around to suit their needs but not to as much success it otherwise could be.

Think of it as a government looking out for its people.  They can't possibly stop every terrorist act that is planned in the future.  Some will be successful and more Americans will die.  Only now there's probably a few less people to watch, and maybe a few less who will go as far as succeeding.  You can call it fear if you want, a sense of fear might keep them on their toes enough to catch a few extras.  But they'll never stop them all which is where the fear becomes harder to criticize.

One last point to show this is all about martyrdom.  In the last 10 years the US has killed probably tens of thousands of muslims.  I doubt many, or any, recieved this proper muslim burial by US forces.  No one else had the celebrity of Bin Laden.

Now I feel dirty for spending four paragraphs defending the governments actions.

Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #198 on: May 02, 2011, 05:57:56 PM »
Silent...
 
2 things, first even though you and I both see the government being filled with scumbags, some good things do happen and sometimes with the right confluence there is sincerity in their actions. But hey take a shower I am sure it won't stick.
 
Secondly,
 
 
Quote
Evil is relative…You can’t hang a sign on it. You can’t touch it or taste it or cut it with a sword. Evil depends on where you are standing, pointing your indicting finger.
you obviously never had my mothers meatloaf.


Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #199 on: May 02, 2011, 06:01:32 PM »

Now I feel dirty for spending four paragraphs defending the governments actions.


Here, you can have my fresh bar of soap.  Excellent.
I'm just amazed that someone in the government had the sense to figure this one out.   :o

Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #200 on: May 02, 2011, 06:04:50 PM »
  you obviously never had my mothers meatloaf.

Haha!  I actually LOL'd at that one.  Thanks, I needed that.   ;D

Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #201 on: May 02, 2011, 06:18:03 PM »

Respect is always honorable. Fearing something is not. It is funny how our judeo-christian belief systems muddy that fact. Instead of respect we should fear god. so it comes as little surprise to me that some would think respect out of fear is of some value. I guess if you are in a pasture and a bull is charging you, fear and respect are close cousins.
 
And I completely agree that we need to understand others belief systems. So much easier said than done.

It was only a generation ago that a mother would say to a daughter, "He seems like a good boy, from a nice God-fearing family...."

Anagrammy

Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #202 on: May 02, 2011, 06:32:53 PM »

Silent,

Thanks for getting dirty.  That was a very insightful, well-presented post. Definitely thoughts to ponder.

Ev

Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #203 on: May 02, 2011, 06:49:41 PM »
+1...Check this out:

http://whatreallyhappened.com/

Looks like America regularly jams internet sites when they want their stuff to pop up first with searches.

http://photoblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/05/02/6568249-webs-bin-laden-death-photo-just-the-photo-is-fake

Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #204 on: May 02, 2011, 07:09:48 PM »
Good riddance, and as far as the body dumping that may or may not have been proper, who cares? I think Silent's post was on point as to the thinking of how it needed to be handled to limit blowback.

I liked how Obama's statement and countenance treated this how it should be treated. A military operation, executed with clear, cold and precise resolve. No dancing on the grave, let the civilians do that. He may eventually revel in the political spoils of what happened, just as Bush got to when Saddam was captured. His watch, his right, even if the CIC is just the guy signing the right paper to activate it.

Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #205 on: May 02, 2011, 07:22:50 PM »
Silent,

Thanks for getting dirty.  That was a very insightful, well-presented post. Definitely thoughts to ponder.

Ev

Sure.  I hope what I'm about to say doesn't detract from my previous post but I have been active duty military for almost 6 years (1 month to go!).  I don't post that because I think that makes my opinons unique or of higher quality on the subject.  I've never been deployed but I'm in daily contact with guys who've been in the middle of the shit so I hear their stories.  Specificly the ones about their culture and how recruiting propaganda is done, it's almost unbelievable.  When put into context of the rural, secluded villages and towns of Afghanistan and Pakistan it makes sense.  These people don't get CNN or the internet.  Most are uneducated and have no idea what's really going on around them.  They get told America is the enemy, shown some victorious firefight video and are promised cash.  That's all it takes.

Now to rebuild my distrust of government reputation.  Being in the military has only served to inflame and harden my cynicism toward government and authority.  Very few join out of love of their country or some sense of duty.  It's usually preceeded by a long history of poor decisions which in the end make the military seem like a decent option.  Hollywood won't show you that either.  The military overall has been a positive experience on a personal and professional level.  I've learned a lot, just not much of what they intended to teach me.

Now don't go calling the cops thinking i'm a future McVeigh.  I'm actually a decent, harmless guy I promise!

Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #206 on: May 02, 2011, 07:46:59 PM »
Sure.  I hope what I'm about to say doesn't detract from my previous post but I have been active duty military for almost 6 years (1 month to go!).  I don't post that because I think that makes my opinions unique or of higher quality on the subject.  I've never been deployed but I'm in daily contact with guys who've been in the middle of the shit so I hear their stories.  Specifically the ones about their culture and how recruiting propaganda is done, it's almost unbelievable.  When put into context of the rural, secluded villages and towns of Afghanistan and Pakistan it makes sense.  These people don't get CNN or the internet.  Most are uneducated and have no idea what's really going on around them.  They get told America is the enemy, shown some victorious firefight video and are promised cash.  That's all it takes.

Now to rebuild my distrust of government reputation.  Being in the military has only served to inflame and harden my cynicism toward government and authority.  Very few join out of love of their country or some sense of duty.  It's usually preceded by a long history of poor decisions which in the end make the military seem like a decent option.  Hollywood won't show you that either.  The military overall has been a positive experience on a personal and professional level.  I've learned a lot, just not much of what they intended to teach me.

Now don't go calling the cops thinking I'm a future McVeigh.  I'm actually a decent, harmless guy I promise!

I was going to edit your post. I wanted to address a couple things you said. But I think your post should be read at least twice.
 
Since WWII most of our wars have centered around cultures with lots of impoverished, poorly/not educated people. Then again, that is most of the world.
 
As to your point of the reasons people join the military. I was in the military just at the end of the "draft era". Sadly the same thing could be said then. What makes it even more troublesome is many find those that enlist as people that couldn't get a job anywhere else, or even worse beliefs. But to hollywood not showing that, well that isn't really true. I can think of a few films that show that mind set. The first one I saw was about the WWII it was called The Victors.
 
I didn't mean to name a bunch of films, rather just one. And the guy that made the film has a bad rep in this forum by several. Michael Moore. He made the point that many of the soldiers in the military are there for financial reasons and that the our country had kinda sold them out. He was in awe of their sacrifice that so many of better opportunity would not make. Just sayin.
 
I know this will seem somewhat maudlin but nonetheless thanks for your service.
 
 

Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #207 on: May 02, 2011, 08:11:35 PM »
God Bless the SEALS. They are amazing.

As for OBL's "funeral" I have no issues with it. Now there is no shrine and I really don't count dumping a corpse seaworthy as a respectable send off anyway. I'm guessing he may be shark poo by now

Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #208 on: May 02, 2011, 08:28:23 PM »
As to your point of the reasons people join the military. I was in the military just at the end of the "draft era". Sadly the same thing could be said then. What makes it even more troublesome is many find those that enlist as people that couldn't get a job anywhere else, or even worse beliefs.

What you say is true although public opinion has changed a bit since then.

http://economy.ocregister.com/2009/08/15/what-is-the-most-respected-job-in-america/15007/

http://www.gallup.com/poll/145043/nurses-top-honesty-ethics-list-11-year.aspx

Military officer ranks very high among respected professions now.  Note however that military enlisted, who do most of the dying, don't make the list.  I'm just surprised that any military is held in that high esteem.

I'll be sure to check out that Michal Moore movie.  I've seen most of his stuff but that one missed me.

Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #209 on: May 02, 2011, 08:49:54 PM »
Quote
I didn't mean to name a bunch of films, rather just one. And the guy that made the film has a bad rep in this forum by several. Michael Moore. He made the point that many of the soldiers in the military are there for financial reasons and that the our country had kinda sold them out. He was in awe of their sacrifice that so many of better opportunity would not make. Just sayin.


When I worked at a community college, young boys (close to BABIES for the love of god!) would come in all done up in their dress uniforms - they were usually Marines, but not always - and do the whole "you can have a 4-year education if you sign on with us" thing.  Damn, they were pretty - hand-picked, partly, for that reason i'd guess. They were too sincere, too young, and much too un-scarred to know they were spewing BS.  And, as the mother of a son who was less than a handful of years younger at the time, I couldn't bring myself to be hard on them. 


We gathered some older students who'd done the "military in exchange for school" thing - so they did know. Each time the pretty boys came we set up a booth right near them, manned by these GI Bill students, to explain to anyone who would listen what the truth was.  They were not there to discourage anyone who was truly interested in a military career, and they made that clear.  They just want to offer some realities to those who were too desperate, too gullible, or just too unworldly to understand they were being sold - and they'd better check out what they were actually getting for the price they'd pay. A basic cost/benefit analysis. It was an effective strategy, sometimes.


It's amazing to me how good the Marines are at polishing these kids up. One of my son's friends did sign up.  He went away to basic pudgy, pimpled and  shy, and came back looking like someone out of central casting. But, serious mental health issues ran in his family.  He broke before he'd ever left US soil, up and left without going though any channels where his reasons may have been discovered, and refused to go back.  There was drama and a dishonorable discharge. 


He is now about to turn 25, lives in a shabby little one-room with a tiny kitchen.  Sold his furniture and musical instruments (his dream had been to be part of the Marine band, but he could not, or would not, understand that raw talent wasn't going to get him there) for food and drugs - and now collects SSI which he spends on porn, drugs when he can get them, and lives on junk food.


It's easy to say "dumb-assed kid" and there is some truth to that.  but i have known this boy, literally, his entire life.  his mother and I were in birth classes together and our sons were born less than a week apart. When i see him, i'm torn between grief, and gratitude that it wasn't my son.  And, for that, I also feel some guilt.


The truth is, he'd likely have ended up the same, or close to it, with or without the help of the Marine Corps. But I look at him and see the sweet baby he was, and the movie-star gorgeous man in uniform who existed for less than six months. The current reality is something I could never have imagined.


BTW - I like Moore's films. I don't like Moore himself much, but I think what he does is important.  I'll check out the film you mentioned.