Author Topic: Hong Kong: another Tiananmen Square, or....thoughts please.  (Read 1919 times)

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Hong Kong: another Tiananmen Square, or....thoughts please.
« on: August 23, 2019, 01:34:29 PM »
The protesters are adamantly standing their ground. The Chicoms have moved in thousands of shock troops. Something has got to give.

Also, what role, and to what extent, will Trump play in this drama? Will China relent in the face of new tariffs?


Hong Kong: another Tiananmen Square, or....thoughts please.
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2019, 01:47:48 PM »
The protesters are adamantly standing their ground. The Chicoms have moved in thousands of shock troops. Something has got to give.

Also, what role, and to what extent, will Trump play in this drama? Will China relent in the face of new tariffs?

If it doesn't abate soon Beijing will have no choice but to send in troops.  The only question is how high the body count will be. 

Hong Kong: another Tiananmen Square, or....thoughts please.
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2019, 01:59:41 PM »
If it doesn't abate soon Beijing will have no choice but to send in troops.  The only question is how high the body count will be.

My personal opinion is, they will insert some of their goons and paramilitary forces to bloody up the protesters a bit, and test their will. If that doesn't work, they will regroup and there will be a time of peace, albeit, a tense peace, and we'll see what happens from there. It's a different world now than it was when the Tiananmen Square massacre took place


Hong Kong: another Tiananmen Square, or....thoughts please.
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2019, 02:29:50 PM »


Hong Kong: another Tiananmen Square, or....thoughts please.
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2019, 02:35:11 PM »
The Chinese will smack a few ppl around, just to show them who's boss.  The Chinese will re-assert their authority over this province.  They will buy Trump's silence by giving ground on the tariffs.


Hong Kong: another Tiananmen Square, or....thoughts please.
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2019, 02:40:55 PM »
The protesters are adamantly standing their ground. The Chicoms have moved in thousands of shock troops. Something has got to give.

Also, what role, and to what extent, will Trump play in this drama? Will China relent in the face of new tariffs?

Seems like this should be a contractual issue (for now, at least). When the British relinquished control, didn't China agree to the "two systems one nation" thing until 2045?


Hong Kong: another Tiananmen Square, or....thoughts please.
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2019, 03:59:23 PM »
The PRC does not bluff.  They have warned the protesters, and will attack if things continue as they are, or get worse.

Trump has zero business sticking his nose into this situation.  How would he react if Xi  issued a statement saying Trump needed to meet with the "Black Lives Matter" leaders to resolve US racial problems?

Hong Kong: another Tiananmen Square, or....thoughts please.
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2019, 04:59:27 PM »
Trump has zero business sticking his nose into this situation.  How would he react if Xi  issued a statement saying Trump needed to meet with the "Black Lives Matter" leaders to resolve US racial problems?

The only way I can see it making sense weighing in is if doing so can manipulate the trade situation.

Hong Kong: another Tiananmen Square, or....thoughts please.
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2019, 05:27:51 PM »
Haha you guys.  I am sure RT is echoing a similar theme right now since that kind of moral bullying is exactly what they hate.

The US has always exerted a disproportionate moral force in other countries' affairs, going back practically to the Monroe Doctrine with even deeper colonial roots in Winthrop's City on a Hill.  In the 20th century Wilson used that kind of nagging it to set up the League of Nations and, after WWII, we hectored Europe into dismantling colonialism, for which we get very little credit these days.

It isn't fair but it's an essential part of our foreign policy because it works.  It's TR's big stick.  American exceptionalism, fuck yeah!

Hong Kong: another Tiananmen Square, or....thoughts please.
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2019, 05:41:12 PM »
... It's TR's big stick.  American exceptionalism, fuck yeah!

# Thought You're Bragging About Your Boyfriend For A Second.
# Next Tiem Type Out Teddy Roosevelt.
# Unless Ur Daydreaming About Roosevelt's Big Stick...
#SeeHowMyMindWandersIntoConclusions
#Don'tMakeMeThink,TypeItOut  :P

#NoMatterHowFarYouGoThereYouAre
#BeenThereDoneThatGotTheT-shirt


Hong Kong: another Tiananmen Square, or....thoughts please.
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2019, 05:47:12 PM »
http://bellgab.com/index.php?topic=11451.msg1346579#msg1346579

According to some "experts" the real Tiananmen Square was a lot bloodier and more deaths and detainments than the press showed. It also wasn't just in the 'square.' HK would be slightly more difficult due to density of the high rises, the foreigners, and the high-tech age so, a bit, harder to control the narrative or get a total jump on people- if the PRC cares a whit about the rest of the world's views or even their own citizen's views. They already have agents within the protest movement both for intel and for making them look bad. They also have apparently, at least tacitly, allowed Triad gangmembers and criminals to used against protestors. They are the real deal. Not like the US or most of Europe. If you are against the government you are disappeared and your organs, if healthy, are sold and not above rounding up whole families or groups.

Hong Kong: another Tiananmen Square, or....thoughts please.
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2019, 08:30:28 PM »
The PRC does not bluff.  They have warned the protesters, and will attack if things continue as they are, or get worse.

Trump has zero business sticking his nose into this situation.  How would he react if Xi  issued a statement saying Trump needed to meet with the "Black Lives Matter" leaders to resolve US racial problems?

Agree.  At some point Xi will have to do whatever he has to do in Hong Kong or risk his inaction in the face of continued anti-government rioting being seen as weakness giving rise to similar organized dissent in other parts of China. Depending on how widespread it became it could even jeopardize his president-for-life gig.  World opinion won't be a factor.


Hong Kong: another Tiananmen Square, or....thoughts please.
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2019, 08:33:38 PM »
# Thought You're Bragging About Your Boyfriend For A Second.
# Next Tiem Type Out Teddy Roosevelt.
# Unless Ur Daydreaming About Roosevelt's Big Stick...
#SeeHowMyMindWandersIntoConclusions
#Don'tMakeMeThink,TypeItOut  :P

#NoMatterHowFarYouGoThereYouAre
#BeenThereDoneThatGotTheT-shirt



Great so I make a rare foray into the politics section with a pertinent comment placing the situation within the context of a broad sweep of American history and all you read is



#Irrelevant
#WeAreMoreThanWhoWeSleepWith
#ImNotPonyGirlSunrise  :P

Hong Kong: another Tiananmen Square, or....thoughts please.
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2019, 10:08:33 PM »
Fuck these commie douchebags! Instead of them showing their citizens who’s boss we should just show them who’s really boss and get this over with. Then we’ll have a truly free world.

Hong Kong: another Tiananmen Square, or....thoughts please.
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2019, 10:37:17 PM »
I think Xi is savvy enough to understand how delicate this situation  is  for  them. The world has changed. Trump is not Obama or Clinton or even Bush (especially GHWB). We all know that the survival of China is heavily dependent  on what the USA does. Trump is a wild card and thus, makes Xi very nervous. He could bring China to its knees with one swipe of the pen. And as we have seen, he has hinted at exactly that.

Hong Kong: another Tiananmen Square, or....thoughts please.
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2019, 10:47:24 PM »
Seems like this should be a contractual issue (for now, at least). When the British relinquished control, didn't China agree to the "two systems one nation" thing until 2045?
That was then.  This is now baby.  That agreement is sooooo last century.

Hong Kong: another Tiananmen Square, or....thoughts please.
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2019, 10:53:08 PM »
The PRC does not bluff.  They have warned the protesters, and will attack if things continue as they are, or get worse.

Trump has zero business sticking his nose into this situation.  How would he react if Xi  issued a statement saying Trump needed to meet with the "Black Lives Matter" leaders to resolve US racial problems?
The Chinese have a greater concern about how they are perceived than we do. 

You are right though, it's not Trumps business nor is it yours or mine.  If the laundry men of China want to effect change  they should do it.  And if they ask us for help, we should wait 5 or 6 years. like the French did when we asked them for help over two hundred years ago.


We learned during the Korean war that the Chinks don't bluff.  And we shot the shit out them.  Ask my Granpop, he was at the Chosin. 

Hong Kong: another Tiananmen Square, or....thoughts please.
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2019, 10:55:12 PM »
The only way I can see it making sense weighing in is if doing so can manipulate the trade situation.
  Ding ding ding!   Winner!  the Chinese will save face without our condemning them on the world stage and 'buy' that by giving ground  on tariffs.

Hong Kong: another Tiananmen Square, or....thoughts please.
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2019, 10:56:20 PM »
Haha you guys.  I am sure RT is echoing a similar theme right now since that kind of moral bullying is exactly what they hate.

The US has always exerted a disproportionate moral force in other countries' affairs, going back practically to the Monroe Doctrine with even deeper colonial roots in Winthrop's City on a Hill.  In the 20th century Wilson used that kind of nagging it to set up the League of Nations and, after WWII, we hectored Europe into dismantling colonialism, for which we get very little credit these days.

It isn't fair but it's an essential part of our foreign policy because it works.  It's TR's big stick.  American exceptionalism, fuck yeah!
"American exceptionalism, fuck yeah!"

this fucker get's it.  He really gets it.



Hong Kong: another Tiananmen Square, or....thoughts please.
« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2019, 10:56:48 PM »
I think Xi is savvy enough to understand how delicate this situation  is  for  them. The world has changed. Trump is not Obama or Clinton or even Bush (especially GHWB). We all know that the survival of China is heavily dependent  on what the USA does. Trump is a wild card and thus, makes Xi very nervous. He could bring China to its knees with one swipe of the pen. And as we have seen, he has hinted at exactly that.
Instead of coal, sugarbeets, soybeans, or empty (I'm being facetious here because I don't have immediate knowledge anymore of how the containers are flowing back) Trump should fill them with Mexican, Inner-City-, and Central American illegals and also with Intifada malcontents! Then say we have no claim to HK but will give ROC official status and give them HK and the various and sundry islands, real and other wise PRC built, to them! And say that Carter was mentally ill, he did, after all talk about UFOs and how looking at women was bad, and take back the Panama Canal for us! And turn Guantanamo Bay into a resort for vets and send those Muslims there into a shark bath.
Just wild suggestions. Kidding, of course.  ;)

Hong Kong: another Tiananmen Square, or....thoughts please.
« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2019, 10:59:29 PM »
Instead of coal, sugarbeets, soybeans, or empty (I'm being facetious here because I don't have immediate knowledge anymore of how the containers are flowing back) Trump should fill them with Mexican, Inner-City-, and Central American illegals and also with Intifada malcontents! Then say we have no claim to HK but will give ROC official status and give them HK and the various and sundry islands, real and other wise PRC built, to them! And say that Carter was mentally ill, he did, after all talk about UFOs and how looking at women was bad, and take back the Panama Canal for us! And turn Guantanamo Bay into a resort for vets and send those Muslims there into a shark bath.
Just wild suggestions. Kidding, of course.  ;)
  Heheheh.  Kidding.  Right. 

Hong Kong: another Tiananmen Square, or....thoughts please.
« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2019, 11:08:56 PM »
Haha you guys.  I am sure RT is echoing a similar theme right now since that kind of moral bullying is exactly what they hate.

The US has always exerted a disproportionate moral force in other countries' affairs, going back practically to the Monroe Doctrine with even deeper colonial roots in Winthrop's City on a Hill.  In the 20th century Wilson used that kind of nagging it to set up the League of Nations and, after WWII, we hectored Europe into dismantling colonialism, for which we get very little credit these days.

It isn't fair but it's an essential part of our foreign policy because it works.  It's TR's big stick.  American exceptionalism, fuck yeah!
I disagree, that colonialism was a bad thing. Just get it right, as we did, when to "kick the habit," "keep the good and throw out the other," etc. Other places, it was a stabilizing, modernizing thing. In some cases it would appear, I demand ANYONE to refute me, that certain places are better off now. Now, this, of course, leads to racism claims but, whatever. As RCH would say, "show the data?" Certain places have done fine, others haven't. Odd. Weird. Spurious. Outliers? Who knows? What other factors were there? Besides "colonialism" and the etc blame. I don't know. I'm not an expert but there seems to be odd correlations, not, necessarily causation, that certain 'areas' can't ever seem to get their act together (that is a scientific term.) haha.

Hong Kong: another Tiananmen Square, or....thoughts please.
« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2019, 11:11:05 PM »
  Heheheh.  Kidding.  Right.
Yep. Like when I tell the gal at Frank's that I don't want a refill of coffee or onions in my gravy on hash.

Hong Kong: another Tiananmen Square, or....thoughts please.
« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2019, 11:34:33 PM »
Yep. Like when I tell the gal at Frank's that I don't want a refill of coffee or onions in my gravy on hash.
Papa Don's Sirloin Benedict and keep the coffee coming.

Hong Kong: another Tiananmen Square, or....thoughts please.
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2019, 02:14:18 AM »
THIS time, the entire world will be watching via social media with keen interest. #Freedom




Hong Kong: another Tiananmen Square, or....thoughts please.
« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2019, 08:16:32 AM »
I disagree, that colonialism was a bad thing. Just get it right, as we did, when to "kick the habit," "keep the good and throw out the other," etc. Other places, it was a stabilizing, modernizing thing. In some cases it would appear, I demand ANYONE to refute me, that certain places are better off now. Now, this, of course, leads to racism claims but, whatever. As RCH would say, "show the data?" Certain places have done fine, others haven't. Odd. Weird. Spurious. Outliers? Who knows? What other factors were there? Besides "colonialism" and the etc blame. I don't know. I'm not an expert but there seems to be odd correlations, not, necessarily causation, that certain 'areas' can't ever seem to get their act together (that is a scientific term.) haha.

Oh I don't think colonialism was an unmitigated evil, either, particularly when you consider what we replaced it with, i. e. propping up whatever native dictator happened to arise as long as he wasn't a total commie.  My point was the strategic value of claiming the moral high ground and its effectiveness at driving American foreign policy, in this case knocking France and especially Britain down to size.

Russia understands what you might call our weaponization of morality only too well -- I think they blame Gorbachev's concessions to it for their collapse -- which is why they devote a lot of effort to convince everyone, especially us, that we're not really the good guys.  It works, too; you have a large portion of the right wing, put off by neocon adventurism, now talking like reedy Chomsky-toting pinheads, forgetting that isolationism has a long history in American politics particularly among Republicans, and that there has always been a huge gulf between articulating a moral position to make sure the white hat stays firmly on our head and actually intervening.

Hence why I find the idea that the American president should remain silent on Hong Kong laughable and the possibility that he might simply be working a trade deal vaguely repugnant.  Yes, let's kneecap our own greatest foreign policy instrument, worth god knows how many aircraft carriers, because we don't like warmongering Hillary, no matter that she is now a greasy smear in history's rearview mirror.

Hong Kong: another Tiananmen Square, or....thoughts please.
« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2019, 10:14:26 AM »
Oh I don't think colonialism was an unmitigated evil, either, particularly when you consider what we replaced it with, i. e. propping up whatever native dictator happened to arise as long as he wasn't a total commie.  My point was the strategic value of claiming the moral high ground and its effectiveness at driving American foreign policy, in this case knocking France and especially Britain down to size.

Russia understands what you might call our weaponization of morality only too well -- I think they blame Gorbachev's concessions to it for their collapse -- which is why they devote a lot of effort to convince everyone, especially us, that we're not really the good guys.  It works, too; you have a large portion of the right wing, put off by neocon adventurism, now talking like reedy Chomsky-toting pinheads, forgetting that isolationism has a long history in American politics particularly among Republicans, and that there has always been a huge gulf between articulating a moral position to make sure the white hat stays firmly on our head and actually intervening.

Hence why I find the idea that the American president should remain silent on Hong Kong laughable and the possibility that he might simply be working a trade deal vaguely repugnant.  Yes, let's kneecap our own greatest foreign policy instrument, worth god knows how many aircraft carriers, because we don't like warmongering Hillary, no matter that she is now a greasy smear in history's rearview mirror.

It's easy to condemn historical events and practices applying current social and political mores which, in a historical sense, have only recently been arrived at.  The left habitually uses uncontextualized and grossly sophistic assertions to diminish the Nation's history and culture and promote socialism.  If they're not doing that, they're just flat lying about shit. 

Hong Kong: another Tiananmen Square, or....thoughts please.
« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2019, 11:43:35 AM »
The left... uncontextualized...grossly sophistic...socialism. 

Zzzzzzz. You are an uber-bore. Once in a while, try tottering out of your Fox News bubble. Some things are wrong irrespective of context because they threaten basic human dignity and wellbeing. People like you are so used to following orders and going with the flow that you've relinquished any ability to think critically.

Hong Kong: another Tiananmen Square, or....thoughts please.
« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2019, 11:52:43 AM »
Zzzzzzz. You are an uber-bore. Once in a while, try tottering out of your Fox News bubble. Some things are wrong irrespective of context because they threaten basic human dignity and wellbeing. People like you are so used to following orders and going with the flow that you've relinquished any ability to think critically.

Explain how human dignity and wellbeing are improved by socialism. ???

Hong Kong: another Tiananmen Square, or....thoughts please.
« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2019, 12:22:59 PM »
We learned during the Korean war that the Chinks don't bluff.  And we shot the shit out them.  Ask my Granpop, he was at the Chosin.

The PRC also didn't bluff Tibet (early 50s), India (1962), USSR (1969), Vietnam (1979), the Tiananmen protestors (1989), or most recently, relative to their claims in the South China Sea.

They have warned the Hong Kong protesters, and surprisingly given them a lot of leeway, but it will end badly if things keep up as they are or get worse.