Author Topic: Abortion  (Read 1457 times)

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #60 on: June 06, 2019, 04:27:58 AM »
I would like to know why modern medicine sends balloons into men's veins to save their lives (angio-whatever).  But no one will invent a balloon for women with ectopic pregnancies, a balloon that would prevent many tragic, unwanted abortions.

A man's vein is much smaller than a woman's fallopian tube.  If a balloon can go up a man's vein, then surely one can go up a woman's tube, to loosen debris in the tube to set the embryo free, so it can get to the uterus.

But, as it stands, medical research and development has not shown any interest in inventing that procedure.  If they did, it would save babies' lives and some women's lives.  It would be extra meaningful, since women who have ectopic pregnancies are pretty much forced into abortions, even though they want to keep their babies.

Your ignorance is appalling.  These are entirely different medical procedures, and relocating the embryo without ANY damage is an immense challenge.  That's why "no one will invent" a balloon that squashes the embryo, not because of some ingrained misogyny in medical R&D (a field that includes women, in case you weren't aware). 

Re: Abortion
« Reply #61 on: June 06, 2019, 10:32:59 AM »
Yes, the shift towards robotics and automation is already underway. What I am asking you to imagine is a society of the future, with advances in technology in which -- let's just say for the sake of discussion -- basically all blue collar workers are replaced with artificially-intelligent, autonomous mechanisms. So you have a significant fraction of our society who are unable to make use of your technique or advice for success.  Not because they made bad choices, but because things out of their control (circumstances or genes) relegated them to that grouping.  I think that's around 14-15% for jobs in manufacturing, construction, and mining.  But add to that things like restaurant servers, doormen, drivers of public conveyance, and the like, and the number rises to (hypothetically) around 25-30% of the workforce.

Think of the iPhone in 2007.  Now think of what smart phones can do, a dozen years later.  It's not hard for me to imagine the scenario given above within our lifetimes.  If you agree, or are willing to play along, my second question applies: what advice would you give to those below the line?  As a refresher, let me quote one of your posts and bold out the things that I am classifying as "advice":

Your answer about being a good citizen, being a good neighbor, and conducting yourself in that manner is certainly possible, but I am more specifically talking about your advice for financial health and security. 
The people in the group I outlined above are good citizens, good neighbors, good and decent people who want to work, but are unemployable. They may even agree with the quote above, but are unable to avail of it.  So, in your view, what should happen to these people in a "capitalistic, free market" that uses technology to automate their jobs?  In these circumstances, does your advice no longer apply?

Please focus your answer to why you think these people are unemployable. 

I have lived through too many hypothetical situations from 'duck and cover' in grade school to acid rain in my teens and hairspray destroying the ozone causing wide spread skin cancer. The drug abuse warning is the one coming closest to being as dangerous  as projected. Don't forget the radioactive tuna fish. Most of what we fear fails to become our reality.

My advice applies to reality in the present system.

I don't mind going off on a tangent or two, but I would like to keep on track for this specific part of the conversation- please try to focus your response to why you think these people are unemployable? 




Re: Abortion
« Reply #62 on: June 06, 2019, 05:19:41 PM »
Please focus your answer to why you think these people are unemployable. 

The short answer is because, in my scenario, there are no longer any jobs that they are capable of performing.  Those jobs have all been automated.

Let me try explaining it by way of example.  The USA pioneered semiconductor manufacturing and was the dominant player for decades.  Then, around the mid-Nineties, entities called "foundaries" emerged, mainly in Taiwan (later in China).  Their cost basis for manufacturing an integrated circuit was lower than in the USA.  In addition, the capital costs for building new plants had risen to billions of dollars.  Semiconductor makers migrated their work overseas, and within less than ten years, a once-thriving and prestigious profession withered away.

Most of the people who worked those jobs found work in other fields,  But imagine a scenario like the one I am postulating, where it is not one industry in which the jobs disappear, but rather it is a type of job.  Manufacturing, mining, construction, mining, food service, transportation, and so forth, where the task is to perform a specific set of tasks according to instructions, and do so repetitively.  These kinds of jobs are ripe for automation.   That automation would not be concentrated in one industry, permitting displaced workers to find jobs elsewhere.  It would be across the entire jobs sector and target a specific type of job.

When automation is widespread and those types of jobs are essentially gone, what happens to the workers?  Retraining?  Certainly possible, except -- let's face this flat on -- the reason someone works as an auto mechanic is usually because he lacks the ability to become an engineer.  Over time, these types of jobs dry up, the workers can't find other jobs, and -- this is key -- new people coming into the workforce are not capable of performing the jobs available, which require college degrees and specialized training. 

This is not just something that I dreamed up, by the way.  I've seen some (limited) discussion about it on the web, and I recently read that AOC brought up the topic as one of the long-term planning needs of the US government.

Going back to your posts, it is clear from both the tone and content that you hold that people in general could all follow your method and prosper.  To quote you: "This the culmination of sacrifice, deferred gratification, and making intelligent choices."  Anyone can do that, amirite?  Except...not the workers in my hypothesis. 

You seem to be edging towards the position that your method for success breaks down in the scenario I described.  Where circumstances stand in the way of someone doing those things.  It's okay to come right out and say so if that's how you feel.  It's a hypothetical, after all.


Re: Abortion
« Reply #63 on: June 06, 2019, 05:27:54 PM »
Your ignorance is appalling.  These are entirely different medical procedures, and relocating the embryo without ANY damage is an immense challenge.  That's why "no one will invent" a balloon that squashes the embryo, not because of some ingrained misogyny in medical R&D (a field that includes women, in case you weren't aware).
DPS, the people demand fallopian intervention:
https://rewire.news/ablc/2019/05/09/someone-tell-this-ohio-legislator-you-cant-move-ectopic-pregnancies-into-the-uterus/


Re: Abortion
« Reply #64 on: June 06, 2019, 05:29:23 PM »
Docs can get a balloon up a man's vein to clean it.  A fallopian tube is 3 times as wide, but they refuse to widen it to save a wanted life.

Re: Abortion
« Reply #65 on: June 06, 2019, 05:34:36 PM »
Search Results
Featured snippet from the web
Zygote intrafallopian transfer (ZIFT) is an infertility treatment used when a blockage in the fallopian tubes prevents the normal binding of sperm to the egg. Egg cells are removed from a woman's ovaries, and in vitro fertilised. The resulting zygote is placed into the fallopian tube by the use of laparoscopy. (Italics mine)
Zygote intrafallopian transfer - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zygote_intrafallopian_transfer

If they can put the baby into the tube, you know damn well they can get it out.

Re: Abortion
« Reply #66 on: June 06, 2019, 05:36:21 PM »
Docs can get a balloon up a man's vein to clean it.  A fallopian tube is 3 times as wide, but they refuse to widen it to save a wanted life.

Not all conceptions are viable.  Sometimes the body itself realizes this and a miscarriage results.

Among the several problems with what you are advocating is that if you consider the cell cluster a "life" at such an early stage, then no abortion is ethically possible.  Maybe that's your position and you are way out on the porch as a pro-lifer, I don't know.  A majority of the rest of the country disagrees with you, though. 

Re: Abortion
« Reply #67 on: June 06, 2019, 05:53:33 PM »
DPS, they can retrieve an egg off a follicle on an ovary with a needle attached to a catheter and suction, going up through the vagina and piercing the vaginal wall until it reaches the egg on the follicle of the ovary.  With the help of ultrasound for navigation.

If they can do that, they can rescue eggs inside fallopian tubes.  The fallopian tube might be accessible by tunneling in.  Not only is this possible, but in the cases of burst or separated tubes, further efforts to help its healing could be made.

Remember, they send balloons into veins 1/3 the thickness in cardiac cases.  F. tubes are three times as wide, so it should be easier.  There is no need for women who want their baby to be forced into tragic abortions.  I don't need to be Sheldon to see that this slacker healthcare issue must be all about the money.

Below is a quote on how today's technology removes an egg from a follicle on an ovary, using a needle, a catheter, suction, and ultrasound.  It is quoted from:
https://www.advancedfertility.com/aspiration.htm

"The egg retrieval process is minimally invasive.

Here’s how it works: the doctor will use ultrasound to identify your ovaries, which, by now, will be adorned with clusters of tiny follicles, like a compact ball of champagne grapes. (Cheers!) Your doctor will gently guide a needle attached to a catheter through the vaginal wall. One by one, the eggs will be drawn out using light suction. They’ll be collected in test tubes labeled with your name and unique identification number, which will then be handed off to the embryologist—an expert in the science of oocyte cryopreservation (the technical term for egg freezing).

After the egg retrieval process is complete and the needle removed, your doctor will examine your vaginal wall and your ovaries. These sites may bleed a little, and the doctor will be prepared to apply pressure or—on rare occasions—use a cauterizing agent to quell the bleeding. That’s it! No stitches. No scars.
You’ll be under sedation, so you won’t feel a thing..."

P.S.  Even though posts about IVF are relevant, that doesn't mean IVF is ethical either.  IVF often results in the unregulated, undocumented, unspeakable murders of "surplus" fertilized embryos.

Re: Abortion
« Reply #68 on: June 06, 2019, 06:00:51 PM »
Not all conceptions are viable.  Sometimes the body itself realizes this and a miscarriage results.

Among the several problems with what you are advocating is that if you consider the cell cluster a "life" at such an early stage, then no abortion is ethically possible.  Maybe that's your position and you are way out on the porch as a pro-lifer, I don't know.  A majority of the rest of the country disagrees with you, though.
I am pro-choice.  Now get your pants back on and listen.  I would LOVE to be proven wrong.  Prove me wrong.  Show me that doctors are not forcing abortions on women with ectopic pregnancies.

To take your own tone, you obviously don't understand ectopic pregnancy.  Miscarriage is the least of its effects.  It can KILL the mother.  So no platitudes.

Regardless of my personal opinion, the fact is, millions of Americans as well as the Catholic church consider a fertilized egg to be life. 

For God's sake, the issue is not whether one is "pro-life" or "pro-choice".  The issue here is that regardless of one's political affiliation, this type of unnecessary abortion is imposed on women who WANT to keep their babies!  And no one in the world seems to care, and they mock a U.S. Representative for trying to get them to deal with it.  Women who WANT to keep their fertilized human egg should be given the option of angio-ing it down, just the same way a man's even thinner veins are angio-d to assist him during circulatory problems.

Especially since they can put the egg up in there.  That proves they can assist it down to the uterus.

Re: Abortion
« Reply #69 on: June 06, 2019, 06:04:32 PM »
Prove me wrong. 

Nah.  You're just a gadfly.  No fun in that kind of talk.

Re: Abortion
« Reply #70 on: June 06, 2019, 06:19:07 PM »
Nah.  You're just a gadfly.  No fun in that kind of talk.
How much fun do you think talking about saving babies can be, for a pro-choicer who believes in population management?  You'd bite, too.

Re: Abortion
« Reply #71 on: June 06, 2019, 06:22:06 PM »
How much fun do you think talking about saving babies can be, for a pro-choicer who believes in population management?  You'd bite, too.

I hope that you find someone who is interested in talking to you.  Good luck.

Re: Abortion
« Reply #72 on: June 06, 2019, 07:04:54 PM »
The short answer is because, in my scenario, there are no longer any jobs that they are capable of performing.  Those jobs have all been automated.

Let me try explaining it by way of example.  The USA pioneered semiconductor manufacturing and was the dominant player for decades.  Then, around the mid-Nineties, entities called "foundaries" emerged, mainly in Taiwan (later in China).  Their cost basis for manufacturing an integrated circuit was lower than in the USA.  In addition, the capital costs for building new plants had risen to billions of dollars.  Semiconductor makers migrated their work overseas, and within less than ten years, a once-thriving and prestigious profession withered away.

Most of the people who worked those jobs found work in other fields,  But imagine a scenario like the one I am postulating, where it is not one industry in which the jobs disappear, but rather it is a type of job.  Manufacturing, mining, construction, mining, food service, transportation, and so forth, where the task is to perform a specific set of tasks according to instructions, and do so repetitively.  These kinds of jobs are ripe for automation.   That automation would not be concentrated in one industry, permitting displaced workers to find jobs elsewhere.  It would be across the entire jobs sector and target a specific type of job.

When automation is widespread and those types of jobs are essentially gone, what happens to the workers?  Retraining?  Certainly possible, except -- let's face this flat on -- the reason someone works as an auto mechanic is usually because he lacks the ability to become an engineer.  Over time, these types of jobs dry up, the workers can't find other jobs, and -- this is key -- new people coming into the workforce are not capable of performing the jobs available, which require college degrees and specialized training. 

This is not just something that I dreamed up, by the way.  I've seen some (limited) discussion about it on the web, and I recently read that AOC brought up the topic as one of the long-term planning needs of the US government.

Going back to your posts, it is clear from both the tone and content that you hold that people in general could all follow your method and prosper.  To quote you: "This the culmination of sacrifice, deferred gratification, and making intelligent choices."  Anyone can do that, amirite?  Except...not the workers in my hypothesis. 

You seem to be edging towards the position that your method for success breaks down in the scenario I described.  Where circumstances stand in the way of someone doing those things.  It's okay to come right out and say so if that's how you feel.  It's a hypothetical, after all.
He has a good point.  Almost everyone I knew did everything you said, and did it right, in accordance with your June 2, 1:56PM post below.  Yet, politicians and employers did not do the right thing.  You mentioned part of wise decision-making is to ask oneself, "Is the world better off if everyone did this..."  Well, politicians and employers didn't care about the worlds of their employees, the employees' families, the employees' investment including real estate, and so on.  All they cared about was getting greedy and increasing their profits at almost any cost.  So, they off-shored millions of skilled jobs, with their NAFTA, CAFTA AND HEREVERAFTA, leaving educated people nothing left except a "gig" economy.  I don't mean to sound so bitter, but this has affected me personally.  It's very easy for retired people (not singling out anyone) or people in unaffected fields, to feel quite satisfied and self-satisfied nowadays,  I understand.  But off-shoring has financially ruined many lives.

Even sadder, citizens from dysfunctional families where abuse may have occurred sometimes have a longer learning curve in life, before they realize what "right" decisions are.  You've obviously been a good role model for your children, but many people don't have that.  It used to be that young adults from dysfunctional families could carve out a decent living either through counseling or by settling into some rote position which fit their personality.  But now, with so many jobs gone, people with poor role models don't stand a chance.

I love to work.  I worked full time all my life, and worked my way through my education.  I was never the type to grumble about work, and usually I had side jobs on weekends, which I did for fun and money.  But, in the last 20 years, things have really changed.  Workers can no longer work their way up to any sense of mastery.  The concept of employer loyalty and true retirement is gone.  Systems change, processes change, and even business identities change faster than you can get your 10-year pin.  It used to be that dedication and skill mattered, so people with certain values could get ahead.  Nowadays, at least in the service sector, a huge sector, the only way to get ahead is to adjust to the flavor of the day, be a sound bite every moment, take on certain personality traits, be "dynamic", focus on impressions and perception, and be willing to work anytime, anywhere - even office assistants are expected to travel AND "lift 50 (yes, fifty) pounds".  Pregnant, prolapsed... or, not.  Doesn't say.  Not everyone is smarmy enough to fit that box.  Human Resource trends have gotten so out of hand that I go into human resource forums (covertly) just to even understand what the Hell is going on.

Now jobs are condensed so one person does the work of several and no one covers for you while you are on vacation.  If one person calls in sick the whole team really DOES suffer because corporations have gotten shamefully greedy with skeleton staffing.  It used to be your eval was in the back room, took 30 minutes.  Now I hear grocery clerks receiving their monthly eval right there in front of me with their supervisor being an ass, while my groceries are being run up (if I don't walk out in disgust).  Employers have sunk to the lowest common denominator.  Nothing is sacred.  I wouldn't be surprised if someone feels like they are at McDonalds whether they are choosing a mortage or a mortuary.

Someone inevitably will cite unemployment statistics, but let me preempt that.  Those statistics lie.  They don't factor in people who don't need to file a claim, young people who don't KNOW to file a claim, people whose unemployment ran out, people who can't get enough hours to even qualify for unemployment, and people who work less than 40 hours/week, which if you look around is the majority of people in the service sector, which is huge.  They can't get enough hours OR they are working 16-hour days.  For the convenience of greedy employers.

There is a new thread called The Gig Economy under Random Topics.

Re: Abortion
« Reply #73 on: June 06, 2019, 07:07:40 PM »
I hope that you find someone who is interested in talking to you.  Good luck.
I hope you find someone who is interested in you being interested in them unbuttoning their top.  Best of luck.

Re: Abortion
« Reply #74 on: June 06, 2019, 08:47:10 PM »
The short answer is because, in my scenario, there are no longer any jobs that they are capable of performing.  Those jobs have all been automated.

Let me try explaining it by way of example.  The USA pioneered semiconductor manufacturing and was the dominant player for decades.  Then, around the mid-Nineties, entities called "foundaries" emerged, mainly in Taiwan (later in China).  Their cost basis for manufacturing an integrated circuit was lower than in the USA.  In addition, the capital costs for building new plants had risen to billions of dollars.  Semiconductor makers migrated their work overseas, and within less than ten years, a once-thriving and prestigious profession withered away.

Most of the people who worked those jobs found work in other fields,  But imagine a scenario like the one I am postulating, where it is not one industry in which the jobs disappear, but rather it is a type of job.  Manufacturing, mining, construction, mining, food service, transportation, and so forth, where the task is to perform a specific set of tasks according to instructions, and do so repetitively.  These kinds of jobs are ripe for automation.   That automation would not be concentrated in one industry, permitting displaced workers to find jobs elsewhere.  It would be across the entire jobs sector and target a specific type of job.

You are losing me because of your insistence on morphing from reality into your hypothetical, Ray Bradbury worthy scenario of robots taking over the world.

Please cite examples of robots in construction, garage mechanics, and food service in the here and now. Yes, there are kiosks, vending machines, self check-outs- but there always seems to be those pesky humans on hand when they fail to operate properly. Admittedly, I live in a rural area, and perhaps have narrowly escaped the rise of the robot overlords. I am not poking fun- I just do not see the magnitude of your argument or feel the same level of angst.

When automation is widespread and those types of jobs are essentially gone, what happens to the workers?  Retraining?  Certainly possible, except -- let's face this flat on -- the reason someone works as an auto mechanic is usually because he lacks the ability to become an engineer.  Over time, these types of jobs dry up, the workers can't find other jobs, and -- this is key -- new people coming into the workforce are not capable of performing the jobs available, which require college degrees and specialized training.


This is the responsibility of the parents/guardians to guide their children in career choices. SJW courses or lesbian dance theory might not be the best choices for future, gainful employment.

Both small and multinational corporations have complained about the shortage of skilled workers for their needs. They are partnering with community/vocational colleges to set up training programs to fill these positions.

http://www.cpccfoundation.org/blog/siemens-energy-partners-with-cpcc/

The above link shows an eight year snapshot in time predicting the opposite of your hypothetical scenario. One is actually taking place and what you are asking me to comment on has yet to occur or may not occur in our lifetimes...or ever.

This is not just something that I dreamed up, by the way.  I've seen some (limited) discussion about it on the web, and I recently read that AOC brought up the topic as one of the long-term planning needs of the US government.

The fact that you are citing foundries in Taiwan and how semi conductors are made tells me that you may be close to a contemporary of mine and not a youngster watching AOC's coloring book video depicting our future. Anyone can say that they saw something, somewhere on the internet about the robots taking over. People on this forum tend to dismiss arguments entirely based on what they perceive to be even the smallest amount of 'anecdotal evidence' so we won't go there.

 
Going back to your posts, it is clear from both the tone and content that you hold that people in general could all follow your method and prosper.  To quote you: "This the culmination of sacrifice, deferred gratification, and making intelligent choices."  Anyone can do that, amirite?  Except...not the workers in my hypothesis. 

Well- real people in my world do.

I have never had to apply real world advice to 'hypothetical people'. Post to post- you can keep changing the scenario which can be about as fruitful as chasing a chicken across a busy highway. Not something in which I want to participate. So tell me more about your real world, good neighbors, who are unemployable in the real world. Is it the whole town, a few in town, or just one guy? (Or are we talking about you?)

You seem to be edging towards the position that your method for success breaks down in the scenario I described.  Where circumstances stand in the way of someone doing those things.  It's okay to come right out and say so if that's how you feel.  It's a hypothetical, after all.

There are always circumstances that prevent one from achieving their desired outcomes.
Here is an example for you. The cheetah chases down its prey and may have to change  direction, speed, and employ any other hunting skills it possess to succeed. If you are 'old school' you will recognize this as a valid business analogy. Make no mistake, it is a survival game.


Re: Abortion
« Reply #75 on: June 06, 2019, 09:05:39 PM »
You are losing me because of your insistence on morphing from reality into your hypothetical, Ray Bradbury worthy scenario of robots taking over the world.

Please cite examples of robots in construction, garage mechanics, and food service in the here and now. Yes, there are kiosks, vending machines, self check-outs- but there always seems to be those pesky humans on hand when they fail to operate properly. Admittedly, I live in a rural area, and perhaps have narrowly escaped the rise of the robot overlords. I am not poking fun- I just do not see the magnitude of your argument or feel the same level of angst.
 

This is the responsibility of the parents/guardians to guide their children in career choices. SJW courses or lesbian dance theory might not be the best choices for future, gainful employment.

Both small and multinational corporations have complained about the shortage of skilled workers for their needs. They are partnering with community/vocational colleges to set up training programs to fill these positions.

http://www.cpccfoundation.org/blog/siemens-energy-partners-with-cpcc/

The above link shows an eight year snapshot in time predicting the opposite of your hypothetical scenario. One is actually taking place and what you are asking me to comment on has yet to occur or may not occur in our lifetimes...or ever.

The fact that you are citing foundries in Taiwan and how semi conductors are made tells me that you may be close to a contemporary of mine and not a youngster watching AOC's coloring book video depicting our future. Anyone can say that they saw something, somewhere on the internet about the robots taking over. People on this forum tend to dismiss arguments entirely based on what they perceive to be even the smallest amount of 'anecdotal evidence' so we won't go there.

 
Well- real people in my world do.

I have never had to apply real world advice to 'hypothetical people'. Post to post- you can keep changing the scenario which can be about as fruitful as chasing a chicken across a busy highway. Not something in which I want to participate. So tell me more about your real world, good neighbors, who are unemployable in the real world. Is it the whole town, a few in town, or just one guy? (Or are we talking about you?)

There are always circumstances that prevent one from achieving their desired outcomes.
Here is an example for you. The cheetah chases down its prey and may have to change  direction, speed, and employ any other hunting skills it possess to succeed. If you are 'old school' you will recognize this as a valid business analogy. Make no mistake, it is a survival game.
Technology is almost always economically disruptive, and often sociologically disruptive, and there is always hand-wringing or attempts to stop but, generally, society moves on and, usually, for the overall better for humanity (at least in terms of lifespans and economics.)

Having said that some cultures, races, jobs, countries, kings, and individuals get run over- or even disappear. And not all is "progress" and so it is a good idea, at times, for people to consider or say "No!" Or prepare. But, I guess, the more scientific would consider this evolution, not proclaiming value judgements to this, but just a natural process.

Now being, at least as so far as I know, the only real sentient beings we can try to prepare for disruptions and can, to an increasing extent, control our environment and technology, and so prepare. Or delay if we feel technology is getting out of our control, but I think human history, and myth, has shown our hubris on this!   ;) And, if so judged a good idea, prepare safety nets (depending on society- from families to State programs) for those who can't adapt or adapt quickly. Or for those left-behind due to age, disability, mentality, etc and pay them back for helping us when young or simply out of loyalty (or, to be more cynical, because one might rather them be in some facility than passed out, crapping the streets, or committing crimes.)  I would say that technological progress is another reason to have secure borders because menial, and increasingly other, jobs might disappear or change (though I know the future is, apparently, a borderless, globalist world due to the alleged efficiencies and control mechanisms.)

Re: Abortion
« Reply #76 on: June 06, 2019, 09:25:10 PM »
And, if so judged a good idea, prepare safety nets (depending on society from families to State programs) for those who can't adapt or adapt quickly. Or for those left-behind due to age, disability, etc and pay them back for helping us when young or simply out of loyalty (or, to be more cynical, because one might rather them be in some facility than passed out, crapping the streets, or committing crimes.)

I totally agree with you here.

We have safety nets in the form of family, community, religious affiliations, and various government programs such as social security, medicare/medicaid, welfare, and other programs I may not be aware of.

These nets are only so big and can only be cast so far. What happens when people who did not help us get where we are feel entitled to jump into those nets? What happens when those nets break and everyone in them fall out? How do we prepare for that? This might not be bad if you are playing Sim City, but in real life, there are real consequences.




Re: Abortion
« Reply #77 on: June 06, 2019, 09:38:27 PM »
I totally agree with you here.

We have safety nets in the form of family, community, religious affiliations, and various government programs such as social security, medicare/medicaid, welfare, and other programs I may not be aware of.

These nets are only so big and can only be cast so far. What happens when people who did not help us get where we are feel entitled to jump into those nets? What happens when those nets break and everyone in them fall out? How do we prepare for that? This might not be bad if you are playing Sim City, but in real life, there are real consequences.
Yes. That is WHY the open border, the criminal situation of management and budgets in some of our large cities, and the bloated governments- on many levels. They want to CAUSE a crisis. Cause a collapse. Foment a change. This is not a new idea, from across political spectrum, who are revolutionary or such: "bleed the Beast" to the Cloward-Piven and Gramsci and various and sundry types.

A safety net can only hold a certain amount. And with the also desire to destroy local communities, families, homogeneous populations, marriage, religions, etc in seeking, I guess once gone, the need for government worship and benefits.....? At some point the center can not hold*. The house is built on sand. Whatever reference or metaphor I can reference, Kipling via Bible suffices, a bit.

"As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man. There are only four things certain since Social Progress began.That a Dog returns to its vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire ,And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire;" 


* Yeats 

"Turning and turning in the widening gyre The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
 Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
 Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
 The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
 The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
 The best lack all conviction, while the worst
 Are full of passionate intensity."

Re: Abortion
« Reply #78 on: June 07, 2019, 12:57:17 AM »
Should manufacturers and doctors be required to tell patients clearly that hormonal birth control causes hidden abortions of fertilized eggs?

https://naturalwomanhood.org/women-want-to-know-does-the-pill-cause-abortion/
Website founder, and CEO, Gerard Migeon has this to say:
     "Even during the wildest times of my youth, I would never have wanted to be the cause of an abortion. Yet, there is a possibility that I have been responsible for one, unaware. How? Because of contraceptive methods that my wife and I used before we knew about the natural methods."

In 2012, 10.6 million women were taking The Pill.  None of them signed up for abortions.  But all of them may have had one or more.  Without even knowing.

Re: Abortion
« Reply #79 on: June 07, 2019, 02:43:49 AM »
In 2012, 10.6 million women were taking The Pill.  None of them signed up for abortions.  But all of them may have had one or more.  Without even knowing.

Don’t ask, don’t tell.  PDQ

Re: Abortion
« Reply #80 on: June 08, 2019, 09:40:40 AM »
1. Strings cut in SA - purge
2. May resigning
3. Macron losing shit - Yellow vests
4. Merkel "resign"
5. NK situation calm - there was rockets flying all the time before
6. Trade war with China - no more unfair trade, stealing money, technology, informations
7. EU turning to nationalism - old guard losing hard - Bannon helping behind curtains
8. ISIS lost in Syria, Iraq - in just 2 years
9. Supreme court - Gorsuch, Kavanaugh - RBG probably too in few weeks/months
10. Wall starting to build - yes, process is slow, but if HRC have won = no wall at all
11. End of NAFTA - stealing from USA
12. End of Paris accord - again, stealing from USA, while biggest fuckers are China
13. Economy is booming - JOBS, JOBS, JOBS
14. Black, Hispanic, Asian, lowest uneployment ever
15. Agreement with the E.U. to increase U.S. exports.
16. End of Iran deal
17. NATO allies pending insane amount of money
18. End of Obamacare individual mandate penalty
19. Small businesses have the lowest top marginal tax
20. 3.9 million Americans have been lifted off food stamps


Just because he grand-standed doesn't mean he isn't right.  Which of his statements is the most leaky? 

Basically all of them. He's an idiot.

Re: Abortion
« Reply #81 on: June 08, 2019, 09:49:28 AM »
1. Strings cut in SA - purge
2. May resigning
3. Macron losing shit - Yellow vests
4. Merkel "resign"
5. NK situation calm - there was rockets flying all the time before
6. Trade war with China - no more unfair trade, stealing money, technology, informations
7. EU turning to nationalism - old guard losing hard - Bannon helping behind curtains
8. ISIS lost in Syria, Iraq - in just 2 years
9. Supreme court - Gorsuch, Kavanaugh - RBG probably too in few weeks/months
10. Wall starting to build - yes, process is slow, but if HRC have won = no wall at all
11. End of NAFTA - stealing from USA
12. End of Paris accord - again, stealing from USA, while biggest fuckers are China
13. Economy is booming - JOBS, JOBS, JOBS
14. Black, Hispanic, Asian, lowest uneployment ever
15. Agreement with the E.U. to increase U.S. exports.
16. End of Iran deal
17. NATO allies pending insane amount of money
18. End of Obamacare individual mandate penalty
19. Small businesses have the lowest top marginal tax
20. 3.9 million Americans have been lifted off food stamps

That's all well and good, Jackstar- but we haven't seen him make any effort stopping the robots from taking over!



Sixteen- I apologize for temporarily derailing your abortion thread. Are we settled on that 50/50 division of responsibility yet?

Re: Abortion
« Reply #82 on: June 08, 2019, 08:39:04 PM »

Re: Abortion
« Reply #83 on: June 09, 2019, 06:26:38 AM »
That's all well and good, Jackstar- but we haven't seen him make any effort stopping the robots from taking over!



Sixteen- I apologize for temporarily derailing your abortion thread. Are we settled on that 50/50 division of responsibility yet?
Sorry, I thought I responded.  Ideally, yes.  But when conditions are not ideal, like how many guys promise they'll pull out, or are jerks.  Sometimes a woman needs a man psychosocially, so she puts up w crap.  In those cases, it is the man and his swimmers who do the fertilizing.  Imo.  Maybe that's not very evolved to say.  Personally, I've always taken control of not getting pregnant.  But I also ended up doing a lot if my own heavy lifting and yard maintenance, with the ensuing joint degradation.  Perhaps if I'd adopted a more acquiescent personality type, I wouldn't have so many joint issues, esp in the back.  I had nothing to do w men who weren't  straight up on birth control.  So they were evolved that way.  But they didn't seem evolved when it came to heavy lifting.  Could be coincidence.  I think you are presenting the issue socially, but I'm thinking of biology.  The man sends, the woman receives. ?

Re: Abortion
« Reply #84 on: June 09, 2019, 06:43:29 AM »
1. Strings cut in SA - purge
2. May resigning
3. Macron losing shit - Yellow vests
4. Merkel "resign"
5. NK situation calm - there was rockets flying all the time before
6. Trade war with China - no more unfair trade, stealing money, technology, informations
7. EU turning to nationalism - old guard losing hard - Bannon helping behind curtains
8. ISIS lost in Syria, Iraq - in just 2 years
9. Supreme court - Gorsuch, Kavanaugh - RBG probably too in few weeks/months
10. Wall starting to build - yes, process is slow, but if HRC have won = no wall at all
11. End of NAFTA - stealing from USA
12. End of Paris accord - again, stealing from USA, while biggest fuckers are China
13. Economy is booming - JOBS, JOBS, JOBS
14. Black, Hispanic, Asian, lowest uneployment ever
15. Agreement with the E.U. to increase U.S. exports.
16. End of Iran deal
17. NATO allies pending insane amount of money
18. End of Obamacare individual mandate penalty
19. Small businesses have the lowest top marginal tax
20. 3.9 million Americans have been lifted off food stamps


Basically all of them. He's an idiot.
I see. 

Re: Abortion
« Reply #85 on: June 09, 2019, 06:56:11 AM »
From Newsweek:  As of July 7, 42.6 million Americans were receiving SNAP benefits during the current fiscal year, down from 44.2 million in 2016. The 2017 figure is the lowest since 2010, when 40.3 million people were on food stamps. The number peaked in 2013, at 47.6 million.

Number goes up and down a lot.  The economy one president manages is the one his predecessor implemented.

Re: Abortion
« Reply #86 on: June 09, 2019, 08:51:58 AM »
From Newsweek:  As of July 7, 42.6 million Americans were receiving SNAP benefits during the current fiscal year, down from 44.2 million in 2016. The 2017 figure is the lowest since 2010, when 40.3 million people were on food stamps. The number peaked in 2013, at 47.6 million.

Number goes up and down a lot.  The economy one president manages is the one his predecessor implemented.
Plus when he took office, there was a shake up and a lot of people were suddenly no longer eligible.

Re: Abortion
« Reply #87 on: June 12, 2019, 03:09:22 AM »

Re: Abortion
« Reply #88 on: June 12, 2019, 08:15:07 AM »
List of scumbags to boycott.
Did they murder snowflake embryos from fertility treatments?  Did they have unlimited in-patient abortions? 

Re: Abortion
« Reply #89 on: June 12, 2019, 11:16:26 AM »
This is why I loath feminism. It appears that it is no longer a 'slippery slope' but more of a hard shove off a cliff.

Perhaps she is the face of the real 'Terminators' we should fear.

Feminist author: Abortion ‘is a form of killing that we need to be able to defend’

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/feminist-author-abortion-is-a-form-of-killing-that-we-need-to-be-able-to-defend