Author Catalonia- Independence?  (Read 624 times)

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Catalonia- Independence?
« on: October 03, 2017, 09:29:58 PM »
Article claims they will separate by the end of the week. How is this handled in the days of the EU?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41493014

Re: Catalonia- Independence?
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2017, 09:37:34 PM »
Hoo Boy.....   Interesting times to say the least.

Re: Catalonia- Independence?
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2017, 10:04:15 PM »
Article claims they will separate by the end of the week. How is this handled in the days of the EU?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41493014
Maybe the Krauts step in and test some stuff and tactics? Maybe a future Hemingway will get his start? As I mentioned in general politics I think the Spanish government has handled poorly and escalated. Interesting also how Trump backed them though in the past, was supportive of Brexit etc. And, always fun, how 'certain' voting is OK and consistent with UN, and other, statements about self-determination of peoples, but, when it comes down to it, some aren't (Catalonia, Kurds, Crimea, etc) but some, at least on paper, are (Iraq, Scotland, etc?- if they turn out 'ok.')


Re: Catalonia- Independence?
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2017, 10:04:46 PM »
Basque Region up next?  That could involve France as well.   


Re: Catalonia- Independence?
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2017, 10:07:04 PM »
Maybe the Krauts step in and test some stuff and tactics? Maybe a future Hemingway will get his start? As I mentioned in general politics I think the Spanish government has handled poorly and escalated. Interesting also how Trump backed them though in the past, was supportive of Brexit etc. And, always fun, how 'certain' voting is OK and consistent with UN, and other, statements about self-determination of peoples, but, when it comes down to it, some aren't (Catalonia, Kurds, Crimea, etc) but some, at least on paper, are (Iraq, Scotland, etc?- if they turn out 'ok.')

Kurds definitely deserve their own country. It would be an ally for us in the region. At least for the near term.

Re: Catalonia- Independence?
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2017, 10:07:32 PM »
Basque Region up next?  That could involve France as well.
Nah, they were placated by the Gugenheim Museum funds. And also got that Annunaki bloodline going for them.  ;)

Re: Catalonia- Independence?
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2017, 10:10:13 PM »
Maybe the Krauts step in and test some stuff and tactics? Maybe a future Hemingway will get his start? As I mentioned in general politics I think the Spanish government has handled poorly and escalated. Interesting also how Trump backed them though in the past, was supportive of Brexit etc. And, always fun, how 'certain' voting is OK and consistent with UN, and other, statements about self-determination of peoples, but, when it comes down to it, some aren't (Catalonia, Kurds, Crimea, etc) but some, at least on paper, are (Iraq, Scotland, etc?- if they turn out 'ok.')

They gotta get Kaliningrad back first   ::)

Re: Catalonia- Independence?
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2017, 10:12:44 PM »
They gotta get Kaliningrad back first   ::)
Too many missiles and Russified population there now. I figure go after softer targets like Alsace-Lorraine first, always a nice first step and still much of the population likely amenable.

Re: Catalonia- Independence?
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2017, 10:13:55 PM »
Too many missiles and Russified population there now. I figure go after softer targets like Alsace-Lorraine first, always a nice first step and still much of the population likely amenable.

Probably right.   The pattern is West first and then East later............       

Re: Catalonia- Independence?
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2017, 10:14:13 PM »
Too many missiles and Russified population there now. I figure go after softer targets like Alsace-Lorraine first, always a nice first step and still much of the population likely amenable.

What about Aragon?

Re: Catalonia- Independence?
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2017, 10:17:31 PM »
What about Aragon?
Protected by Opus Dei, likely.  ;)

Re: Catalonia- Independence?
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2017, 10:22:49 PM »
Article claims they will separate by the end of the week. How is this handled in the days of the EU?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41493014
EU's response so far has been to just say it's a domestic matter. I can't imagine them doing much in general, but iirc one of the core steps in joining the EU in the first place is to have no current internal or external territorial disputes.

Basque Region up next?  That could involve France as well.   

I was wondering if this will spur ETA to abandon the disarmament that they carried out earlier this year.


Since this is a current secession crisis thread, I'll copy what I posted yesterday in the political thoughts thread:
Lost amongst all the focus on Catalonia is that there have been mass protests for independence in parts of Cameroon, and the government has responded by killing at least 17 of the demonstrators (some shot from helicopters) and shutting off internet access. Basically the English speaking areas are claiming that they're being discriminated against by the French  speaking majority and that French is being overused in their regions.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/security-forces-kill-several-at-protests-in-cameroon/2017/10/02/d5012848-a769-11e7-9a98-07140d2eed02_story.html
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cameroon-politics-france/france-urges-all-sides-in-cameroon-to-show-restraint-after-eight-killed-idUSKCN1C719P



Re: Catalonia- Independence?
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2017, 10:31:01 PM »
EU's response so far has been to just say it's a domestic matter. I can't imagine them doing much in general, but iirc one of the core steps in joining the EU in the first place is to have no current internal or external territorial disputes.

I was wondering if this will spur ETA to abandon the disarmament that they carried out earlier this year.


Since this is a current secession crisis thread, I'll copy what I posted yesterday in the political thoughts thread:
I haven't heard much updates on the idea of Orania [sic] and those attempts but heard on some 'fringe' sites a "King Khoebaha Cornelius III" in Good Hope has seceded from South Africa (king of the Khosian people but also, apparently, wants to protect white farmers and will allow in government.)

Re: Catalonia- Independence?
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2017, 10:53:37 PM »
www.businessinsider.com/ap-grenades-ammo-stolen-in-daring-raid-at-portugal-army-depot-2017-6

Wonder if these weapons turn up if things get out of hand in Catalonia?

Re: Catalonia- Independence?
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2017, 11:10:07 PM »
www.businessinsider.com/ap-grenades-ammo-stolen-in-daring-raid-at-portugal-army-depot-2017-6

Wonder if these weapons turn up if things get out of hand in Catalonia?
I wonder how much of various and sundry 'movements' in Western countries are being handled or supported by....Russians, Chinese, Soros, etc? Even if just agitprop etc and soft-funding?

Re: Catalonia- Independence?
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2017, 11:25:01 PM »
Just looked into how the King was handling this.  Not sure how much good he could have done but it
would appear his speech didn't help matters.  Too bad........


Re: Catalonia- Independence?
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2017, 11:27:08 PM »
Just looked into how the King was handling this.  Not sure how much good he could have done but it
would appear his speech didn't help matters.  Too bad........


This is why all kings gotta go. Queens too.  ;)

Re: Catalonia- Independence?
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2017, 11:31:15 PM »
The average Catalonian people have had it up to here with Muslim Jihadist's and the corrupt politicians out of Madrid never do anything about it. I don't blame them. The common man has simply had enough. The government doubles down on policies that don't work and the nation collapses because of it. We've seen it repeatedly through-out history. At the end of the day a nation is just a collection of people who agree to cooperate under a set of rules. if they decide to no longer do that, nothing can stop them.  I have several friends in the region, and a nicer, more intelligent group of people you could not ask for. They are not making this move without having shaken every tree ad nauseum for decades first. Madrid brought this upon themselves.

Re: Catalonia- Independence?
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2017, 11:36:27 PM »
This is why all kings gotta go. Queens too.  ;)

Nah.  Keep them around for the drama.............


Re: Catalonia- Independence?
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2017, 11:45:14 PM »
The average Catalonian people have had it up to here with Muslim Jihadist's and the corrupt politicians out of Madrid never do anything about it. I don't blame them. The common man has simply had enough. The government doubles down on policies that don't work and the nation collapses because of it. We've seen it repeatedly through-out history. At the end of the day a nation is just a collection of people who agree to cooperate under a set of rules. if they decide to no longer do that, nothing can stop them.  I have several friends in the region, and a nicer, more intelligent group of people you could not ask for. They are not making this move without having shaken every tree ad nauseum for decades first. Madrid brought this upon themselves.

I knew it would only be a matter of time before Captain Bullshit posted here. Of course, you're a conflict expert!  ;D

Re: Catalonia- Independence?
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2017, 12:47:23 AM »

Re: Catalonia- Independence?
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2017, 01:00:48 AM »
EU's response so far has been to just say it's a domestic matter. I can't imagine them doing much in general, but iirc one of the core steps in joining the EU in the first place is to have no current internal or external territorial disputes...

Wellll, does that only cover that instant in time when a nation joins?  What does it really mean - did Spain temporarily give up it's claim on Gibralter to join?  Did Argentina tell the UK it was no longer interested in the Falklands?  What about all the other movements and claims on the above map?

If Catalonia were to break free and be able to fend off Spain, as far as they would be concerned they wouldn't have any territorial disputes.


Not arguing with your post, just pointing out the EU has show over the years it lacks integrity and would do anything for expediency.  That is probably a clause that they would use to keep out undesirables (in their mind) like Turkey, but shouldn't be taken as some kind of hard and fast rule.

Re: Catalonia- Independence?
« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2017, 01:16:56 AM »
The average Catalonian people have had it up to here with Muslim Jihadist's and the corrupt politicians out of Madrid never do anything about it. I don't blame them. The common man has simply had enough. The government doubles down on policies that don't work and the nation collapses because of it. We've seen it repeatedly through-out history. At the end of the day a nation is just a collection of people who agree to cooperate under a set of rules. if they decide to no longer do that, nothing can stop them.  I have several friends in the region, and a nicer, more intelligent group of people you could not ask for. They are not making this move without having shaken every tree ad nauseum for decades first. Madrid brought this upon themselves.

That all sounds about right.  Spain is an economic mess and has trouble even forming governments.

I don't know what the Catalonians think about Moslems - for Spain in general one would think that having ''hosted'' them for 600 years, and fought literally hundreds of battles over that period to finally be rid of them, the Spanish wouldn't be as foolishly welcoming as the rest of the EU.

Wouldn't surprise me a bit though, if after everything the new government of free Catalonia had the same ignorant policies towards them that the rest of Western Europe has.  One would want to be able to preen about with one's peers in Brussels, and be invited to all the right parties at the UN, without being called names - right?

Re: Catalonia- Independence?
« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2017, 01:36:57 AM »



If anyone is curious where the US is on the seriousness scale, here our street rallies are about the BLM fascists - now joined by a bunch of illiterate NFL players - telling us to side with inner city street gangs against the police.

Re: Catalonia- Independence?
« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2017, 07:11:34 AM »
Wellll, does that only cover that instant in time when a nation joins?  What does it really mean - did Spain temporarily give up it's claim on Gibralter to join?  Did Argentina tell the UK it was no longer interested in the Falklands?  What about all the other movements and claims on the above map?

I've just been looking it up; it seems like it's mainly external disputes and the requirement was introduced after Spain joined the EU and/or it's not quite set in stone (Cyprus is also in the EU). The negotiations for Balkans states (eg Serbia) or Turkey joining absolutely involve it though.
The Falklands is a Special Territory of the EU (like other external territories, but unlike Gibraltar), and at the time of the UK joining there were negotiations over the sovereignty of the islands.

just pointing out the EU has show over the years it lacks integrity and would do anything for expediency.  That is probably a clause that they would use to keep out undesirables (in their mind) like Turkey, but shouldn't be taken as some kind of hard and fast rule.

I think that's absolutely the case. It also sounds like Spain could be suspended from the EU, but their reaction so far makes it seem unlikely:

Quote
TEU Article 7 provides for the suspension of certain rights of a member state if a member persistently breaches the EU's founding values (respect for human dignity, freedom, democracy, equality, the rule of law and respect for human rights, including the rights of persons belonging to minorities), outlined in TEU Article 2. The European Council can vote to suspend any rights of membership, such as voting and representation as outlined above. Identifying the breach requires unanimity (excluding the state concerned), but sanctions require only a qualified majority. The state in question would still be bound by the obligations treaties and the Council acting by majority may alter or lift such sanctions.

Re: Catalonia- Independence?
« Reply #25 on: October 04, 2017, 08:04:59 AM »
Maybe the Krauts step in and test some stuff and tactics? Maybe a future Hemingway will get his start? As I mentioned in general politics I think the Spanish government has handled poorly and escalated. Interesting also how Trump backed them though in the past, was supportive of Brexit etc. And, always fun, how 'certain' voting is OK and consistent with UN, and other, statements about self-determination of peoples, but, when it comes down to it, some aren't (Catalonia, Kurds, Crimea, etc) but some, at least on paper, are (Iraq, Scotland, etc?- if they turn out 'ok.')

Catalonia"e secession from Spain has important implications for the NATO Alliance. Most immediately, might NATO be obliged to invoke Article 5:

"The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area."

Beyond that what is  Catalonia"s disposition vis-a-vis NATO membership or any status of forces agreements in place with individual NATO member states?   What will its relationship with Russia be?  Needless to say. the Iberian Peninsula is very important strategically to the west and there are many stakeholders involved.



 
 

Re: Catalonia- Independence?
« Reply #26 on: October 04, 2017, 09:00:15 AM »
Catalonia"e secession from Spain has important implications for the NATO Alliance. Most immediately, might NATO be obliged to invoke Article 5:

"The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area."

Beyond that what is  Catalonia"s disposition vis-a-vis NATO membership or any status of forces agreements in place with individual NATO member states?   What will its relationship with Russia be?  Needless to say. the Iberian Peninsula is very important strategically to the west and there are many stakeholders involved.

That shit don't mattah' to a populist uprising you fuckin' dork! IF that had ANY teeth, the terrorist attacks in Barcelona would have caused total immigration shut-down. Have fun with the cancer fucker! :)

Re: Catalonia- Independence?
« Reply #27 on: October 05, 2017, 04:35:17 AM »
I haven't heard much updates on the idea of Orania [sic] and those attempts but heard on some 'fringe' sites a "King Khoebaha Cornelius III" in Good Hope has seceded from South Africa (king of the Khosian people but also, apparently, wants to protect white farmers and will allow in government.)

Bougainville is another one trying to have an independence referendum soon. They've already had a civil war over this issue, and the referendum was part of the peace agreement ending it.

https://thediplomat.com/2017/09/will-bougainville-hold-its-independence-referendum/

Re: Catalonia- Independence?
« Reply #28 on: October 05, 2017, 09:48:34 AM »
East Timor broke away from Indonesia in 2002, South Sudan from Sudan in 2011. 

Not counting the breakup of the Soviet Union and it's satellite states, and the ongoing breakup of the former Yugoslavia, the most recent country before that to succeed is Eritrea splitting off from Ethiopia in 1993.

Re: Catalonia- Independence?
« Reply #29 on: October 05, 2017, 09:54:48 AM »
Bougainville is another one trying to have an independence referendum soon. They've already had a civil war over this issue, and the referendum was part of the peace agreement ending it.

https://thediplomat.com/2017/09/will-bougainville-hold-its-independence-referendum/
I think Freeport-McMoRan should step in since Rio Tinto has failed....