Author Military Coup underway in Turkey  (Read 8931 times)

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Re: Military Coup underway in Turkey
« Reply #240 on: July 17, 2016, 03:18:57 PM »


Comparitively.
One of my favorite pre-PC films.  "Zulu" and "Zulu Dawn" too.

Re: Military Coup underway in Turkey
« Reply #241 on: July 17, 2016, 03:46:18 PM »
One of my favorite pre-PC films.  "Zulu" and "Zulu Dawn" too.

I guess you're alright. Here's your watch back.

Say, what time was it, when you found out who killed Kennedy?

Re: Military Coup underway in Turkey
« Reply #242 on: July 17, 2016, 10:16:27 PM »
mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0ZX0Q9


Re: Military Coup underway in Turkey
« Reply #243 on: July 17, 2016, 10:22:27 PM »


how not to military

Re: Military Coup underway in Turkey
« Reply #244 on: July 17, 2016, 11:56:16 PM »
mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0ZX0Q9

I would not be surprised the F-16s escorting Erdogan flight back to Istanbul were USAF a/c.  That could explain why the Turkish F-16s didn't fire. 

Re: Military Coup underway in Turkey
« Reply #245 on: July 17, 2016, 11:57:38 PM »
I would not be surprised the F-16s escorting Erdogan flight back to Istanbul were USAF a/c.  That could explain why the Turkish F-16s didn't fire.

Thats what i was thinking too

Re: Military Coup underway in Turkey
« Reply #246 on: July 18, 2016, 12:18:36 AM »
Thats what i was thinking too

Either that or they weren't armed with AIMs

Re: Military Coup underway in Turkey
« Reply #247 on: July 18, 2016, 12:19:36 AM »
I would not be surprised the F-16s escorting Erdogan flight back to Istanbul were USAF a/c.  That could explain why the Turkish F-16s didn't fire.

Wait -- I thought we wouldn't be surprised if the coup itself was a CIA plot.  Can we get a consensus here?  I am surprised every time I watch the news.

Re: Military Coup underway in Turkey
« Reply #248 on: July 18, 2016, 12:21:45 AM »
Either that or they weren't armed with AIMs

Well i assume they did since i keep reading they shot down a Turkish police helicopter, unless they did a gun run on the heli

Re: Military Coup underway in Turkey
« Reply #249 on: July 18, 2016, 12:28:07 AM »
Well i assume they did since i keep reading they shot down a Turkish police helicopter, unless they did a gun run on the heli

I think the plane that shot down the helicopter was loyal Air Force and the helicopter was carrying coup members. Didn't dig into it though.

Re: Military Coup underway in Turkey
« Reply #250 on: July 18, 2016, 12:35:23 AM »
Wait -- I thought we wouldn't be surprised if the coup itself was a CIA plot.  Can we get a consensus here?

I can neither confirm nor deny that the occurrences would or would not be mutually exclusive, but if there's one thing we can all agree and reach consensus on, it's this: Bush did 9/11.

Re: Military Coup underway in Turkey
« Reply #251 on: July 18, 2016, 12:36:52 AM »
It just all seems so arranged. How'd they have all those thousands of identical BIG Turkish flags at the ready for the street crowds in the cities just hours after there were tanks in the street?   Turkish kibuke...or is it Turkish Reichstagg?  The poor bastard soldiers deployed in the streets may be tragic patsies.  Islamist leaders have all been such pinnacles of truth & honor, eh?

Re: Military Coup underway in Turkey
« Reply #252 on: July 18, 2016, 12:50:57 AM »

Re: Military Coup underway in Turkey
« Reply #253 on: July 18, 2016, 08:44:23 AM »
Wait -- I thought we wouldn't be surprised if the coup itself was a CIA plot.  Can we get a consensus here?  I am surprised every time I watch the news.

Tough sometimes to tell the players, even the home team, without a score card.  Remember the Egyptian military overthrow of Morsi and his Muslim Brotherhood party?  No question many in the US intelligence and military communities were happy to see him get the boot, might have even provided "encouragement". Obama, on the other hand supported Morsi, if for no other reason perhaps because he was the duly elected head of government of a sovereign state. Something similiar could have happened here.

Re: Military Coup underway in Turkey
« Reply #254 on: July 18, 2016, 10:55:59 AM »
might

Oh, Uncle. You're adorable. Put me on your knee, and tell me stories of the days when we didn't think it were possible that we were The Great Satan.

Re: Military Coup underway in Turkey
« Reply #255 on: July 18, 2016, 11:21:42 AM »
No question many in the US intelligence and military communities were happy to see him get the boot, might have even provided "encouragement".
I think we'll eventually learn that the Obama WH has the US military on an historically short leash with a choke chain.

Re: Military Coup underway in Turkey
« Reply #256 on: July 18, 2016, 11:56:48 AM »
I think we'll eventually learn that the Obama WH has the US military on an historically short leash with a choke chain.

Another possibility was the US wanted him out, even supported the coup, but didn't want to see him killed, hence a US fighter escort. Historically the US has either facilitated or outright arranged the escape/resettlement of some unpleasant despots in the process of being overthrown..... the Shah, Marcos, Baby Doc, Idi Amin, Samoza etc.  Erdogan may have initially accepted a US offer of sanctuary, then changed his mind when things started looking up for the forces loyal to him.  Doubt we'll get the full story before November.

Re: Military Coup underway in Turkey
« Reply #257 on: July 18, 2016, 12:10:19 PM »
Until someone comes up with something like ATC comms between USAF escorts and Erdogan's plane , I'm not buying the rumor. I'm leaning toward a Turkish "Reichstag" episode; the Turks well know how to pull off a coup and Friday night looked to me like theater. 

Further, if USAF escorts were present, 60 years of good faith between the Kemalist Turkish military and the US government are down the toilet.  But that wouldn't surprise me with this ideology before security WH.

Re: Military Coup underway in Turkey
« Reply #258 on: July 18, 2016, 12:26:02 PM »
Tough sometimes to tell the players, even the home team, without a score card.  Remember the Egyptian military overthrow of Morsi and his Muslim Brotherhood party?  No question many in the US intelligence and military communities were happy to see him get the boot, might have even provided "encouragement". Obama, on the other hand supported Morsi, if for no other reason perhaps because he was the duly elected head of government of a sovereign state. Something similiar could have happened here.

Thanks you guys are like a virtual barber shop.  Can practically smell the Bay Rum.



Re: Military Coup underway in Turkey
« Reply #260 on: July 18, 2016, 12:36:27 PM »
Until someone comes up with something like ATC comms between USAF escorts and Erdogan's plane , I'm not buying the rumor. I'm leaning toward a Turkish "Reichstag" episode; the Turks well know how to pull off a coup and Friday night looked to me like theater. 

Further, if USAF escorts were present, 60 years of good faith between the Kemalist Turkish military and the US government are down the toilet.  But that wouldn't surprise me with this ideology before security WH.

Just to be clear, an escort of US jets is my calculated opinion, not a rumor.  Don't necessarily agree an escort/offer of sanctuary for Erdogan by the US would have significantly damaged relations between the US and the nominally secular Turkish military.  Might agree with you if the US military had actively opposed the coup with US forces to keep him in power, but that's highly unlikely.  The Turkish military knows they are toothless without US equipment, technical/logistics support, and NATO ties.  They would quickly become a third would military force fielding weapon systems they couldn't maintain if ties were severed.

Re: Military Coup underway in Turkey
« Reply #261 on: July 18, 2016, 12:55:38 PM »
I'm leaning toward a Turkish "Reichstag" episode; the Turks well know how to pull off a coup and Friday night looked to me like theater. 

Erdogan called the coup "God's gift" in his speech at the airport.  He's clearly a skilled politician who can mobilize a lot of very committed supporters and is comfortable with high stakes.  Whether he planned it or not, it will be hard to tell the difference.

That some generals were conveniently kidnapped suggests to me that they may have been prepared to reappear if the coup showed signs of success.  Feels more improvisatory than centrally planned.

Re: Military Coup underway in Turkey
« Reply #262 on: July 18, 2016, 01:17:18 PM »
Just to be clear, an escort of US jets is my calculated opinion, not a rumor.  Don't necessarily agree an escort/offer of sanctuary for Erdogan by the US would have significantly damaged relations between the US and the nominally secular Turkish military.  Might agree with you if the US military had actively opposed the coup with US forces to keep him in power, but that's highly unlikely.  The Turkish military knows they are toothless without US equipment, technical/logistics support, and NATO ties.  They would quickly become a third would military force fielding weapon systems they couldn't maintain if ties were severed.
US jets escorting Erdogan back to Istanbul (defended from the TAF) would have been an in-your-face move and 180 degrees from offering him asylum, so I missed something or am not following.  Turkey's military is still a key bulwark against Putin/Russia so I don't think a coup would sour NATO against them beyond perfunctory moans about democratic, especially since Erdogan's Turkey was the gateway for thousands of Euro-born muslims to join ISIS in Syria, and for many to return forming cells in W Europe.   Erdogan is a free agent playing the US/NATO against ME stability for his own goals.He was fine ISIS as long as they were beating Assad.  It's only in the past year that Erdogan allowed Incirlik to be used to launch against ISIS, and he still hasn't really closed the border.  Turkey is the main market for ISIS oil.

This ain't over.  Islamist Erdogan is purging the Kemalists as we post.  We'll see soon enough whether he'll leverage the "crisis" as an excuse to go into Syria and tempt Russian strikes on a NATO member.  Erdogan has studied the board and had a decade to align pieces for his move.  It's my hunch that he's timing a major move for the lame duck/turnover period in Washington.  Meanwhile our boy Kerry is proceeding with yet one more huge group hug on terrorism in DC week.  Carry on, our Griever-In-Chief is ready with B-52s loaded with balloons and teddy bears.

Re: Military Coup underway in Turkey
« Reply #263 on: July 18, 2016, 02:18:01 PM »
US jets escorting Erdogan back to Istanbul (defended from the TAF) would have been an in-your-face move and 180 degrees from offering him asylum, so I missed something or am not following.  Turkey's military is still a key bulwark against Putin/Russia so I don't think a coup would sour NATO against them beyond perfunctory moans about democratic, especially since Erdogan's Turkey was the gateway for thousands of Euro-born muslims to join ISIS in Syria, and for many to return forming cells in W Europe.   Erdogan is a free agent playing the US/NATO against ME stability for his own goals.He was fine ISIS as long as they were beating Assad.  It's only in the past year that Erdogan allowed Incirlik to be used to launch against ISIS, and he still hasn't really closed the border.  Turkey is the main market for ISIS oil.

This ain't over .  Islamist Erdogan is purging the Kemalists as we post.  We'll see soon enough whether he'll leverage the "crisis" as an excuse to go into Syria and tempt Russian strikes on a NATO member.  Erdogan has studied the board and had a decade to align pieces for his move.  It's my hunch that he's timing a major move for the lame duck/turnover period in Washington.  Meanwhile our boy Kerry is proceeding with yet one more huge group hug on terrorism in DC week.  Carry on, our Griever-In-Chief is ready with B-52s loaded with balloons and teddy bears.

As I said before, Erdogan may have initially accepted the US offer of escort/sanctuary, then changed his mind when forces loyal to him seemed to be getting the upper hand.  Probably seemed like a good idea early on, what with plotters shooting at and trying to bomb him before taking off from Marmaris.  We know from the original Reuters article his Gulfstream went into a holding pattern for some period of time between leaving Marmaris and landing at Istanbul.  Why not wait before deciding to split?  You've got escorts you know have thwarted armed fighters from firing on you, as long as you have the gas and are safe.....

I never said the US/NATO would "sour" on Turkey after a coup.  Just the opposite in fact, based on the coups that have occurred there previously without significant impact to NATO. Rather I was responding to your supposition the good faith relationship between the US and nominally secular Turkish military would go down the toilet if we had offered him sanctuary.  I simply pointed out the Turkish military, who are ostensibly non-Islamist, are smart enough not to turn their back on their principal supplier of weapons systems/logistical support over what would be sold to the world as a humanitarian gesture by the US.

I do agree with you this isn't over, and Erdogan probably does feel he has a free hand (at least politically) until Nov, maybe Jan.  Can't see him doing anything stupid vis a vis Russia however as I'm not sure he can count on NATO support for such misadventures for the reasons you alluded to. 

Re: Military Coup underway in Turkey
« Reply #264 on: July 18, 2016, 04:52:57 PM »
...Rather I was responding to your supposition the good faith relationship between the US and nominally secular Turkish military would go down the toilet if we had offered him sanctuary.
Just saying that sanctuary/protection offered after the outcome is known is very different from providing armed protection inside Turkish airspace so he could return to Istanbul as the hero while the outcome is uncertain.  One reason I think it was staged or at least a sprung trap is that he went to Istanbul instead Ankara, the capital.

Re: Military Coup underway in Turkey
« Reply #265 on: July 18, 2016, 11:34:24 PM »
I think it's cool the way you two old farts patriots are discussing this like it was a legitimate event and not some carnival sideshow barker's acid dream. Kudos, gents; y'all keep drinking the Kool-Aid it real around here.

Re: Military Coup underway in Turkey
« Reply #266 on: July 19, 2016, 08:53:36 AM »
I think it's cool the way you two old farts patriots are discussing this like it was a legitimate event and not some carnival sideshow barker's acid dream. Kudos, gents; y'all keep drinking the Kool-Aid it real around here.

I'm curious what you think happened if this was not a "legitimate event"? 

Re: Military Coup underway in Turkey
« Reply #267 on: July 19, 2016, 12:04:20 PM »
I'm curious what you think happened if this was not a "legitimate event"?











Re: Military Coup underway in Turkey
« Reply #269 on: July 28, 2016, 08:30:43 AM »
I read an article yesterday where the Turkish Deputy PM claimed the F-16 pilot who shot down the Russian Su-24 last November did so on his own ininitiative, not under orders.  Convenient time to make that claim, what with fence mending underway with Putin and the pilot in custody for his role in the coup attempt.  If the Russians asked, would Erdogan hand over the pilot to be tried for the shoot down/death of the Su-24 pilot?  He may fair better in a Russian show trial covered by the world media as opposed to some behind closed doors Turkish military tribunal in a country where the media has been gutted.