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President Donald J. Trump

Started by The General, February 11, 2011, 01:33:34 AM

Dr. MD MD

Quote from: 21st Century Man on June 30, 2018, 10:53:31 PM
Then why put the Old Testament in the Bible?  They didn't leave it out because it was no good.  Psalm 23 is not relevant anymore?  That is news to me and much of Christianity.  Really? LOL! Oh great MD knows better than the rest of us.  Sorry MD, that doesn't wash.  Try better!

Obviously, I understand better than your hysterical Jewish fantasy. It's there for historical context, dummy but it was obviously lost on you as you have to keep trying to make it the main story. What don't you get about that?! ::)

GravitySucks

Quote from: 21st Century Man on June 30, 2018, 10:39:30 PM
     I respectfully disagree. Of course Jews persecuted them because the Apostles agreed Christ was the Messiah as foretold in the Old Testament. The Pharisees and mainstream Jews didn't.  As for the rest of your comments, yes, some of the Mosaic law was not necessary.  The reason why the Apostles didn't go to Jewish Temple was because they would have been persecuted. No, they would not have offered sacrifices because they believed Christ was the only sacrifice necessary under the new Covenant. Jesus still believed in the Sabbath and he made no statement that Sunday should have been the Sabbath rather than Saturday.  As far as I know, the seventh day of the week has not changed from Saturday to Sunday.  God did not rest on the first day of the week. ;)

  Seventh Day Adventists and Messianic Jews continue that tradition. In my opinion correctly.  As far as dietary laws, it is true that modern mainstream Christians do not follow those laws but the early Church did as do the Seventh Day Adventists and once again the Messianic Jews. Many of the "Christian" traditions that we are used to now were made up by Rome and are not found in the Bible.  Funny that many Protestant churches don't think Catholicism is real Christianity but that is where we still get most of the Christian traditions from.  What's that all about?  If the Old Testament was completely negated, why include it in the Bible?  Why not just settle for the New Testament?

Protestants were originally people that left the Catholic church.  The amount of baggage they drug with them varied. Lutherans kept child baptism and vestments for example. Anabaptists were probably the closest thing to the orginal churches.

The old testament was included because that is the prelude to Jesus’ incarnation. None of it woukd have context without the Old Testament.

The reasons that most protestant’s have trouble with Catholicism is primarily because the priesthood has placed themselves as intercessors between God and Man. Add in the idolatry, statuary that was basically loot given to the Catholic church when he declared the Holy Roman Empire.  These statues started out as pagan gods.  Other non-biblical issues are of lesser importance. Like Immaculate Conception, purgatory, limbo, praying to saints, keeping of relics, and lighting of candles (among other indulgences).   Protestants also do not believe the host and wine become the body and blood of Christ. The Catholic church incorporates customs from indigenous peoples in order to be accepted throughout the world.

This is way more information than I needed to provide to be ordained in the Church of the Latter Day Dude.

GravitySucks

And as far as dietary laws go read up about Simon Peter’s dream with all of the animals coming forth from the sheet.

Quote from: GravitySucks on June 30, 2018, 10:57:44 PM
Protestants were originally people that left the Catholic church.  The amount of baggage they drug with them varied. Lutherans kept child baptism and vestments for example. Anabaptists were probably the closest thing to the orginal churches.

The old testament was included because that is the prelude to Jesus’ incarnation. None of it woukd have context without the Old Testament.

The reasons that most protestant’s have trouble with Catholicism is primarily because the priesthood has placed themselves as intercessors between God and Man. Add in the idolatry, statuary that was basically loot given to the Catholic church when he declared the Holy Roman Empire.  These statues started out as pagan gods.  Other non-biblical issues are of lesser importance. Like Immaculate Conception, purgatory, limbo, praying to saints, keeping of relics, and lighting of candles (among other indulgences).   Protestants also do not believe the host and wine become the body and blood of Christ. The Catholic church incorporates customs from indigenous peoples in order to be accepted throughout the world.

This is way more information than I needed to provide to be ordained in the Church of the Latter Day Dude.

Sorry you had to write that all out because I completely agree with most of it though I would expand on your middle paragraph.  I agree that part of the reason it was included was to give context for Jesus but I imagine you'd get an earful from most pastors and priests that much of the Old Testament is relevant for other reasons.  I know the Southern Baptist preacher I see with my wife and the Penetecostal preacher we used to go to would argue with you on that point.  Johnny Turner Hunt is the Baptist preacher we go see often.  He was the head of the Southern Baptist Convention too.

FIFM!!  My bad.  Getting tired.

Dr. MD MD

Quote from: 21st Century Man on June 30, 2018, 11:08:07 PM
Sorry you had to write that all out because I completely agree with most of it though I would expand on your middle paragraph.  I agree that part of the reason it was included was to give context for Jesus but I imagine you'd get an earful from most pastors and priests that much of the Old Testament is relevant for other reasons.  I know the Southern Baptist preacher I see with my wife and the Penetecostal preacher we used to go to would argue with you on that point.  Johnny Turner is the Baptist preacher we go see often.  He was the head of the Southern Baptist Convention too.

Yeah, well I've had it with these mystic code people who want to keep all the treasure maps to themselves. The central tenants of Christianity aren't that hard to understand. ::)

Quote from: GravitySucks on June 30, 2018, 11:03:36 PM
And as far as dietary laws go read up about Simon Peter’s dream with all of the animals coming forth from the sheet.

Ok, I can buy that then.  I'm certainly no expert and don't know Acts as well as the Gospels.

GravitySucks

Quote from: 21st Century Man on June 30, 2018, 11:08:07 PM
Sorry you had to write that all out because I completely agree with most of it though I would expand on your middle paragraph.  I agree that part of the reason it was included was to give context for Jesus but I imagine you'd get an earful from most pastors and priests that much of the Old Testament is relevant for other reasons.  I know the Southern Baptist preacher I see with my wife and the Penetecostal preacher we used to go to would argue with you on that point.  Johnny Turner Hunt is the Baptist preacher we go see often.  He was the head of the Southern Baptist Convention too.

FIFM!!  My bad.  Getting tired.

That’s one thing I like about the Southern Baptist.  They are independent and the preacher will normally say “Don’t take my word for it, read it for yourself and let the Holy Spirit reveal the truth for you”. Do I have an amen?


I guess this is better than talking Trump.

Quote from: Dr. MD MD on June 30, 2018, 11:13:13 PM
Yeah, well I've had it with these mystic code people who want to keep all the treasure maps to themselves. The central tenants of Christianity aren't that hard to understand. ::)

Dan Brown is full of shit.  We probably really don't really disagree about the central tenets of Christianity.  John 3:16

albrecht

Quote from: GravitySucks on June 30, 2018, 10:57:44 PM
Protestants were originally people that left the Catholic church.  The amount of baggage they drug with them varied. Lutherans kept child baptism and vestments for example. Anabaptists were probably the closest thing to the orginal churches.

The old testament was included because that is the prelude to Jesus’ incarnation. None of it woukd have context without the Old Testament.

The reasons that most protestant’s have trouble with Catholicism is primarily because the priesthood has placed themselves as intercessors between God and Man. Add in the idolatry, statuary that was basically loot given to the Catholic church when he declared the Holy Roman Empire.  These statues started out as pagan gods.  Other non-biblical issues are of lesser importance. Like Immaculate Conception, purgatory, limbo, praying to saints, keeping of relics, and lighting of candles (among other indulgences).   Protestants also do not believe the host and wine become the body and blood of Christ. The Catholic church incorporates customs from indigenous peoples in order to be accepted throughout the world.

This is way more information than I needed to provide to be ordained in the Church of the Latter Day Dude.


ECLA and Missouri Synod, etc  believe Eucharist.

WOTR

Quote from: albrecht on June 30, 2018, 06:29:55 PM
Keep in mind that the modern socialist state, in terms of things like public education, old age pensions, state funded health-care, etc, was done under Bismarck who was uniting Germany and trying to get the people loyal to the new Prussian/German state versus various and sundry royals, churches, their landlords, etc. Some of this was good, sure, but it wasn't to "help" the people but to advance the nation-state, again not, necessarily, bad. Our public education was also steered both towards State loyalty but, as if not more, importantly to train workers for the corporations.
When you look to the past, almost all institutions started from religious groups (and some decidedly less religious groups.)  There were libraries, housing, sports complexes, social clubs, hospitals and schools.  Eventually the state took over just about everything.  Now, we all pay for these through taxes, and most individuals are not as engaged as they once were in directly helping their fellow man (why should we volunteer or donate extra when we already pay for the food, shelter and Ipads for the George Senda's of the world?)

Sometimes, I wonder what would happen if they lowered the tax burden substantially and cut some of the programs.  Would the general populace step up like they did a hundred years ago, band together and make a better world through donating time and funds?  Or are we now too selfish and would just pocket the difference and go out for a few more steak dinners?

Dr. MD MD

Quote from: 21st Century Man on June 30, 2018, 11:31:09 PM
Dan Brown is full of shit.  We probably really don't really disagree about the central tenets of Christianity.  John 3:16

Probably. My point was only that I think it's important not to confabulate the two. The Jews didn't and don't consider Jesus the messiah. I'd say there's the radical break right there. How could Christianity be just a continuation of Judaism if they don't even believe that?!

Quote from: GravitySucks on June 30, 2018, 11:27:01 PM
That’s one thing I like about the Southern Baptist.  They are independent and the preacher will normally say “Don’t take my word for it, read it for yourself and let the Holy Spirit reveal the truth for you”. Do I have an amen?


I guess this is better than talking Trump.

I was never a big Baptist though I was born into that faith. I'm more or less nondenominational at this time. I like some things about all denominations but I hate other things.   I like the ceremonial aspects of the Greek Orthodox, Episcopals and even  the Catholics for example communion.  I don't like the idolatry and false doctrines that run rampant in them though. I like the preaching of some of the Southern Baptists like Johnny Hunt and some of the Pentecostals .  I like the Sabbath doctrine of the Seventh Day Adventists. I like pork though so I'm glad you brought up St. Peter's dream.  ;D 


Bounder

An anonymous genius scribe elevated at least the King James translation of Ecclesiastes to a level that cuts together with the best English written, making that portion of (how demeaning to call it "old") testament a thing to be glad we can read today. 

The whole affair is marred, of course, by the principle character's supernatural evil (making bears maul children to death, etc.) and the weird self-invalidating (and totally unparsable) dictates throughout.

Quite apart from the broken provenance of the books themselves.  The oldest fragments of the Christian epistles (and they're scanty) never get nearer than 150 years to the story they're telling and were made without the benefit of photography or audio recordings. To get a taste of this gap: start writing Art Bell's biography, sans both of those technologies, in the year 2168. 

You're also conveniently leaving out the third omnibus (Mormon's) without which the author of the universe appears bizarrely ignorant of the entire Western Hemisphere of his favorite planet.

More on topic:

Trump can't even get the chapter titles right!  That said . . . his actions do carry a worrying eschatological tinge.

Dr. MD MD

Quote from: Bounder on July 01, 2018, 12:17:17 AM
An anonymous genius scribe elevated at least the King James translation of Ecclesiastes to a level that cuts together with the best English written, making that portion of (how demeaning to call it "old") testament a thing to be glad we can read today. 

The whole affair is marred, of course, by the principle character's supernatural evil (making bears maul children to death, etc.) and the weird self-invalidating (and totally unparsable) dictates throughout.

Quite apart from the broken provenance of the books themselves.  The oldest fragments of the Christian epistles (and they're scanty) never get nearer than 150 years to the story they're telling and were made without the benefit of photography or audio recordings. To get a taste of this gap: start writing Art Bell's biography, sans both of those technologies, in the year 2168. 

You're also conveniently leaving out the third omnibus (Mormon's) without which the author of the universe appears bizarrely ignorant of the entire Western Hemisphere of his favorite planet.

More on topic:

Trump can't even get the chapter titles right!  That said . . . his actions do carry a worrying eschatological tinge.

You know what has always had a more worrying eschatological tinge? Socialism. Check out the historical examples. ;)

paladin1991

Quote from: 21st Century Man on June 30, 2018, 01:37:36 PM
It is more like Judaism is a part of Christianity.  It is certainly the bedrock on which Christianity was built.  Jesus would have called himself a Jew and his disciples would have done the same.  I don't understand the hostility to these facts.  ::)

the Dickdr is an anti semite.  He hates his own ppl.  How about that?  The jewish Dickdr hates his own ppl.

Dr. MD MD

Quote from: paladin1991 on July 01, 2018, 12:22:14 AM
the Dickdr is an anti semite.  He hates his own ppl.  How about that?  The jewish Dickdr hates his own ppl.

Oh, FBI! So evil...so filled with hate and guile! ::)

Bounder

Quote from: Dr. MD MD on July 01, 2018, 12:21:58 AM
You know what has always had a more worrying eschatological tinge? Socialism. Check out the historical examples. ;)

Except that "eschaton" is the end of the world, and any -isms you invoke are necessarily pikers by comparison.

Dr. MD MD

Quote from: Bounder on July 01, 2018, 12:25:02 AM
Except that "eschaton" is the end of the world, and any -isms you invoke are necessarily pikers by comparison.

Really? Your lot seems pretty convinced that capitalism will be the reason for that. ::)

GravitySucks

Quote from: Bounder on July 01, 2018, 12:17:17 AM
An anonymous genius scribe elevated at least the King James translation of Ecclesiastes to a level that cuts together with the best English written, making that portion of (how demeaning to call it "old") testament a thing to be glad we can read today. 

The whole affair is marred, of course, by the principle character's supernatural evil (making bears maul children to death, etc.) and the weird self-invalidating (and totally unparsable) dictates throughout.

Quite apart from the broken provenance of the books themselves.  The oldest fragments of the Christian epistles (and they're scanty) never get nearer than 150 years to the story they're telling and were made without the benefit of photography or audio recordings. To get a taste of this gap: start writing Art Bell's biography, sans both of those technologies, in the year 2168. 

You're also conveniently leaving out the third omnibus (Mormon's) without which the author of the universe appears bizarrely ignorant of the entire Western Hemisphere of his favorite planet.

More on topic:

Trump can't even get the chapter titles right!  That said . . . his actions do carry a worrying eschatological tinge.

Its not the same as writing about Art in 2168. It is more like trying to find everything that was weitten about Art but you don’t start looking until 2168.  There is one historical fact that was so important at the time, it would have been mentioned in at least one of the books. The destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.  This is very strong evidence that the books were all originally written between 35 and 68 AD. Copies of copies of copies were passed from church to church. 

Bounder

Quote from: GravitySucks on July 01, 2018, 12:31:41 AM
Copies of copies of copies were passed from church to church.

And we know the fidelity of copied copies is always 100%.

Quote from: Bounder on July 01, 2018, 12:17:17 AM
An anonymous genius scribe elevated at least the King James translation of Ecclesiastes to a level that cuts together with the best English written, making that portion of (how demeaning to call it "old") testament a thing to be glad we can read today. 

The whole affair is marred, of course, by the principle character's supernatural evil (making bears maul children to death, etc.) and the weird self-invalidating (and totally unparsable) dictates throughout.

Quite apart from the broken provenance of the books themselves.  The oldest fragments of the Christian epistles (and they're scanty) never get nearer than 150 years to the story they're telling and were made without the benefit of photography or audio recordings. To get a taste of this gap: start writing Art Bell's biography, sans both of those technologies, in the year 2168. 

You're also conveniently leaving out the third omnibus (Mormon's) without which the author of the universe appears bizarrely ignorant of the entire Western Hemisphere of his favorite planet.

More on topic:

Trump can't even get the chapter titles right!  That said . . . his actions do carry a worrying eschatological tinge.

You realize that the percentage of Christians in the worlds that are Mormons is probably less than 1%.

Bounder

Quote from: Dr. MD MD on July 01, 2018, 12:26:15 AM
Really? Your lot seems pretty convinced that capitalism will be the reason for that. ::)

I don't know that I've aired enough of my stances to be thrown in with any "lot."  I'm positively not a socialist, nor even a socialist-sympathizer.  As a father I do fear the socio-political fissures that seem to be widening daily, though perspective is critical and I am, very likely, prone to "worst case" maundering.

GravitySucks

Quote from: Bounder on July 01, 2018, 12:33:03 AM
And we know the fidelity of copied copies is always 100%.

All I was challenging was your dating of original source material to 150 years which seem to have implied that the people that wrote it did not live during the time of Christ. When ou find copies of copies and fragments of other copies and they all seem to match it adds credence to te integrity of the scribes. One book of Isaiah found in the late 20th century was dated to 1000bc and it virtually matched the copies that the Jews consider to be the official scripture.   3000 years and the text matches nearly 100% after hundreds if not thousands of copies.

Dr. MD MD

Quote from: Bounder on July 01, 2018, 12:36:14 AM
I don't know that I've aired enough of my stances to be thrown in with any "lot."  I'm positively not a socialist, nor even a socialist-sympathizer.  As a father I do fear the socio-political fissures that seem to be widening daily, though perspective is critical and I am, very likely, prone to "worst case" maundering.

The Dems shit talk is really scaring you? Really?! You know they're ginormous pussies deep down inside and that this is all just to try to force their political agenda down Americans throats, right? :D

Bounder

Quote from: 21st Century Man on July 01, 2018, 12:34:02 AM
You realize that the percentage of Christians in the worlds that are Mormons is probably less than 1%.

As is the percentage of doctors and rocket scientists.

GravitySucks

Quote from: 21st Century Man on July 01, 2018, 12:34:02 AM
You realize that the percentage of Christians in the worlds that are Mormons is probably less than 1%.
The amount of Mormons that are Christians is less than 1%.

Quote from: Bounder on July 01, 2018, 12:41:22 AM
As is the percentage of doctors and rocket scientists.


Especially on Bellgab!  :P


Quote from: GravitySucks on July 01, 2018, 12:41:30 AM
The amount of Mormons that are Christians is less than 1%.

I tried to look it up but the best stat I got was 1.6% of Americans were Mormons.  I figured when you take the whole world into account less than 1% seemed correct.

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