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Random Political Thoughts

Started by MV/Liberace!, February 08, 2012, 10:50:42 AM

albrecht

Quote from: Yorkshire pud on May 11, 2019, 04:55:13 PM
The alternative is anarchy. It's estimated the maximum time before a 'civilised' society in the west would break down because of major food shortage, power cuts and fuel shortage would be three days. So presumably the governments of said countries are in some way implementing various regs that ensure the relatively free movement of goods and services that satisfy the needs of the general population.
You've been listening to Norry! Haha. Caught out. He always rants about this, as does Alex and the rest of the crowd. I'm not sure 3 days but shortly.  Especially in urban/suburban areas. We saw some mild anarchy when a certain element's EBT cards wouldn't function.  A price we pay for efficiency and one of my arguments that say some subsidies or tariffs are sometimes good. Certain things are more important than simple profit or cheap prices. Especially when dealing with potential wars, enemy invaders and hackers, etc. Like selling Japanese our steel prior to WWII, not a good idea. Some things, food, infrastructure, heavy mfg, etc should be native even if a bit higher prices in cases of need, war, etc. 

However much of these international standards, and trade, are not a result of governments but companies- even those EVIL corporations- who realize that standards and contractual language need to be agreed upon. Game theory that collectively, by pursuing own profits, results in benefits for all. In some ways government, to wit today, are a wall, to free and efficient trade. This is not to say I don't believe there is a place for government, just not as a savior, and, to crib from someone far more famous, view government as a fire- useful but also dangerous.

WOTR

Quote from: SredniVashtar on May 11, 2019, 09:57:17 AM
It does matter if they use their disproportionate wealth to propagandise for the rich, which is what happens quite often. You are ending up with almost a separate society which doesn't understand how most people live. Remember
when the govt shut down and rich people thought that people who were not getting paid might actually need the money? Large parts of London are geting purchased by the rich as investments and left vacant. That's not healthy.

If you are concerned that people don't understand how others live you must be advocating that we cap net worth at around $500,000 and annual salary at around $80,000. It does not take being the 7th richest man to be in a different existence than the average man. After a certain accumulation of wealth, it is hard to understand how others struggle. If the top 10 people in America control 5% or 55% of the wealth- those people are not going to live in the same reality.

Two stories. I was talking with the children of a wallstreet investment banker (I was invited to stay at their house on park Ave... Long story.) Anyhow, they said that they were kind of poor. The reason? They didn't have a private helicopter like their friends at school to take them skiing that weekend.

A little closer to home, one of the volunteers in the phone room of a social agency had her heart in the right place. She was there trying to help the poor. She had lived a privileged life- and I would estimate she was 55 - 65. She had actually made the comment that she "did not understand why people would need a referral to a food bank when they could take money out of their savings." No- I'm not joking. And she was not in the 1%. She just lived a secure life.

Unless your are advocating that people like that woman be taxed and be made to struggle and scrape by, there will always be people who are "almost a separate society which doesn't understand how most people live." She was a good woman who worked hard (or whose husband worked hard) to ensure that there would always be a savings account to draw on.

To advocate that we take away her savings account and retirement savings so that she can finally suffer and understand why somebody might need a referral to a food bank seems like the worst that true socialism has to offer.*

*Again, I agree that there is something wrong... But simply saying "tax them more" is not going to work... Nor is Trumps call to "not tax them."

pyewacket

Quote from: SredniVashtar on May 11, 2019, 04:41:46 PM
I don't know where you get the idea that government is a saviour. It's there to advance the interests of its citizens, that's all. If somebody is drowning and they get thrown a lifeline, there's no need to berate them for being poor swimmers.

You do realize that this 'poor swimmer' is completely at the mercy of the person pulling at the other end of the rope- right? The person in control of the situation can change his mind at any time. Imagine that it's me pulling the rope and I see that it is you at the other end. Imagine the first thought that goes through my mind and the first thought that goes through yours.

What comes to mind for someone who had the forethought to be prepared, spent money for necessary supplies, and has to put themselves at risk to save the "poor swimmers" who most likely made the poor choices to put themselves in that situation? 

So once again, it is down to the smart, well prepared, financially sound people having to take care of the perpetually unprepared and stupid people. They are always the loudest critics of others up until they have their hands out for that rope. Once rescued- their complaints will renew with vigor. The rope that they always expect to save them, may not be tossed to them in the future. After all, in a vast sea of 'poor swimmers', it is difficult to save them all. 

WOTR

Quote from: Juan on May 11, 2019, 09:06:47 AM
The crash of 2008 was caused by the purposeful greed of a large number of people, Democrats and Republicans, socialists and capitalists, corporations and government. The causes are completely detailed in Reckless Endangerment by Gretchen Morgenson, a New York Times business correspondent.

You can now get a used copy for a quarter on Amazon. It would enlighten you as to how politics takes a backseat to graft. And by you, I mean everyone, not just Shreddy.

I may have to pick up that book. I followed it quite closely, in real time and watched the aftermath. I would say that you are 100% correct when you assert that it was Democrats and Republicans, socialist and capitalists. We still have an interesting mix today where union retirement funds require a rate of return that can only be achieved by risky investments. And we have unfunded liabilities, too big to fail banks, a derivative market that is a powder keg. It is as though we have learned nothing. My guess would be that the pain was not great enough to cause a behavior change.

25 cents? Hell, I'll even offer a buck for that.  ;)

Jackstar

Quote from: pyewacket on May 11, 2019, 06:02:02 PM
So once again, it is down to the smart, well prepared, financially sound people having to take care of the perpetually unprepared and stupid people.

You're describing parenting.

WOTR

Quote from: Yorkshire pud on May 11, 2019, 10:32:34 AM
The poor aren't poor because they want to be, and seldom is it their own doing, it's frequently a symptom of happenstance and in the US (And increasingly most of the developed world too), many live literally week to week and have no savings to rescue them if for whatever reason they lose their job. Poor doesn't mean unemployed. There are many working two jobs just to survive rent day to rent day.
I worked almost a decade in the "not for profit" sector. You don't need to tell me that many are "working poor", and you don't need to convince me that they are not poor because they want to be.

However, I will also tell you that in many cases, "poor" does not mean what it used to. For many, it means limited channels on cable, last years model phone, and buying Levi's instead of designer brand jeans.

Our world has somehow managed to convince people that they "need" designer jeans today, and that rent will take care of itself. In many instances, the world is full of "Falkies" who buy an Ipad, go into overdraft, and still want to attend alien con because anything they want should be theirs. And then use meals on wheels and complain because the food is too bland.

Now, I am not going to say that this is everybody. I have seen women and children living in a car. I have seen men working as labourers and still living on the street. I have seen addiction, and I have seen domestic violence. I have seen people who were as poor as any you would find in a third world nation.

One of the problems is that we are allowing companies free reign of the world and the ability to move their factories and jobs to whomever will tax them the least and give them the cheapest labour. There is a place for government (and it does include tax collection and providing a safety net.) But generally neither side is willing to implement any real reforms. The left saying "tax the rich" does not get to the bottom of the problem. The right saying that no taxes will create jobs ignores the safety net and the harm that many corporations do.

If you have never looked at how Walmart uses the government to in essence subsidize it's work force by paying a small wage, reducing hours, not providing benefits- it is a really good place to start with what is wrong...

pyewacket

Quote from: Jackstar on May 11, 2019, 06:19:06 PM
You're describing parenting.

At least with parenting, for the most part, one's intention is to raise self sufficient/self reliant  human beings. They can decide to whom they want to throw a rope

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: albrecht on May 11, 2019, 05:13:18 PM
Funny going out to the lake to see my cousin who is one, well cardio-thoracic . Obviously the government mandated he would become one and he never had any motivation or belief that he could become one. You don't think school, residency, boards, etc require motivation or belief in one's self? You are a strange bird.

Oh I'm a firm believer that most of us can name a teacher from school who planted the germ that gave us the inspiration to have some self belief. Mine was a French/German/European studies teacher named Tommy Tranter. I don't know for sure but I think Mr Tranter had a government grant (as pretty much all degrees were then financed in the UK in those days) that paid for his college or university course to train to be a teacher who then went on to inspire and motivate many many other kids under his tutelage.

After I had left (it was written about on the old 'Friends reunited site) there was a lad about 15 who ran a market stall on Saturdays. His mother looked after it on Wednesday but could only do the mornings. He had double French in the afternoon and got into a chat with Tommy about his dilemma.Tommy let him skip French to go look after his stall. Of course this would be all over the papers these days (and maybe should have been then too) and Tommy fired in disgrace, but he let the lad follow his dream and encouraged him to do so.


Yorkshire pud

Quote from: albrecht on May 11, 2019, 05:18:00 PM
You've been listening to Norry! Haha. Caught out. He always rants about this, as does Alex and the rest of the crowd.

Nope...I read about it long before I'd heard of either, it was a study done by a group of sociologists I believe. They'd done a pretty thorough look into the socio economic status of the UK and Europe back in the 80's. Naturally the three days is flexible because in the USA it would be nearer three hours and people being mown down with rounds of ammunition.

albrecht

Quote from: Yorkshire pud on May 11, 2019, 06:53:25 PM
Nope...I read about it long before I'd heard of either, it was a study done by a group of sociologists I believe. They'd done a pretty thorough look into the socio economic status of the UK and Europe back in the 80's. Naturally the three days is flexible because in the USA it would be nearer three hours and people being mown down with rounds of ammunition.
True, thankfully. In an "end times" "doomsday" scenario, especially in a non-homogeneous population, urban or sub-urban, with open-borders, lead can indeed be worth more than gold! Then again you look at certain events and, maybe, the thread of lead helps a bit, the dire nature of the situation brings people together, helping each other, and so on, which is great- albeit it is bad it takes a natural, or some kind of, disaster to do so.  It is interesting how different areas, communities, and even individuals respond to a flood, tornado, or whatever. Often surprising to a cynical person.  And then there are segments also who look to loot, price gouge, and take advantage sadly but most seem to rally and unite and help each other.

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: WOTR on May 11, 2019, 06:25:03 PM
I worked almost a decade in the "not for profit" sector. You don't need to tell me that many are "working poor", and you don't need to convince me that they are not poor because they want to be.

However, I will also tell you that in many cases, "poor" does not mean what it used to. For many, it means limited channels on cable, last years model phone, and buying Levi's instead of designer brand jeans.

Our world has somehow managed to convince people that they "need" designer jeans today, and that rent will take care of itself. In many instances, the world is full of "Falkies" who buy an Ipad, go into overdraft, and still want to attend alien con because anything they want should be theirs. And then use meals on wheels and complain because the food is too bland.

Now, I am not going to say that this is everybody. I have seen women and children living in a car. I have seen men working as labourers and still living on the street. I have seen addiction, and I have seen domestic violence. I have seen people who were as poor as any you would find in a third world nation.

One of the problems is that we are allowing companies free reign of the world and the ability to move their factories and jobs to whomever will tax them the least and give them the cheapest labour. There is a place for government (and it does include tax collection and providing a safety net.) But generally neither side is willing to implement any real reforms. The left saying "tax the rich" does not get to the bottom of the problem. The right saying that no taxes will create jobs ignores the safety net and the harm that many corporations do.

If you have never looked at how Walmart uses the government to in essence subsidize it's work force by paying a small wage, reducing hours, not providing benefits- it is a really good place to start with what is wrong...


I agree with pretty much everything you say there, with just an additional caveat. The average monthly expenditure on one's accommodation back in the 60s and 70's was about a quarter of ones total income (With often only one working). These days it's nearer a half to sometimes three quarters (With both working), which is a ridiculous state of affairs. Not only but also, the baby boomers are reaping the benefits of their high income/low expenditure working years and now in retirement. Whereas today, the opposite is true, average salaries have been in real terms flat for years and expenditure is much higher as a proportion.

QuoteIf you have never looked at how Walmart uses the government to in essence subsidize it's work force by paying a small wage, reducing hours, not providing benefits- it is a really good place to start with what is wrong..


Absolutely. And it isn't just Walmart that does that.

albrecht

Quote from: WOTR on May 11, 2019, 06:25:03 PM
I worked almost a decade in the "not for profit" sector. You don't need to tell me that many are "working poor", and you don't need to convince me that they are not poor because they want to be.

However, I will also tell you that in many cases, "poor" does not mean what it used to. For many, it means limited channels on cable, last years model phone, and buying Levi's instead of designer brand jeans.

Our world has somehow managed to convince people that they "need" designer jeans today, and that rent will take care of itself. In many instances, the world is full of "Falkies" who buy an Ipad, go into overdraft, and still want to attend alien con because anything they want should be theirs. And then use meals on wheels and complain because the food is too bland.

Now, I am not going to say that this is everybody. I have seen women and children living in a car. I have seen men working as labourers and still living on the street. I have seen addiction, and I have seen domestic violence. I have seen people who were as poor as any you would find in a third world nation.

One of the problems is that we are allowing companies free reign of the world and the ability to move their factories and jobs to whomever will tax them the least and give them the cheapest labour. There is a place for government (and it does include tax collection and providing a safety net.) But generally neither side is willing to implement any real reforms. The left saying "tax the rich" does not get to the bottom of the problem. The right saying that no taxes will create jobs ignores the safety net and the harm that many corporations do.

If you have never looked at how Walmart uses the government to in essence subsidize it's work force by paying a small wage, reducing hours, not providing benefits- it is a really good place to start with what is wrong...
There could be some arguments made for revisiting corporations and having them chartered, as originally done, for a certain line of business and time or some methodology changing purpose from pure shareholder value or expanding civil, and criminal, penalties for leaders rather than, basically, limited liability at least for egregious actions, or non-action? There also could be an argument for 100% death tax. I'm not saying I'm for these but could be considered and arrive at some middle way? I recall a funny situation when I brought up the 'death tax' to a guy ranting, at a wedding rehearsal dinner no less, about taxes, being a libertarian, etc and I said "wouldn't a real libertarian solution to start Tabula rasa and no inherited money and let the best person win?"  It did not go over well and lots of sputtering and he took offense.

albrecht

Quote from: Yorkshire pud on May 11, 2019, 07:04:16 PM

I agree with pretty much everything you say there, with just an additional caveat. The average monthly expenditure on one's accommodation back in the 60s and 70's was about a quarter of ones total income (With often only one working). These days it's nearer a half to sometimes three quarters (With both working), which is a ridiculous state of affairs. Not only but also, the baby boomers are reaping the benefits of their high income/low expenditure working years and now in retirement. Whereas today, the opposite is true, average salaries have been in real terms flat for years and expenditure is much higher as a proportion.


Absolutely. And it isn't just Walmart that does that.
And those on the Left, note I didn't presume you, thought "women in the workforce" was all about "equality" and "rights."  :)   



Yorkshire pud

Quote from: albrecht on May 11, 2019, 07:01:13 PM
It is interesting how different areas, communities, and even individuals respond to a flood, tornado, or whatever.

Yes they do...But largely because they also know eventually help will arrive in the form of outsiders with the machines and technical know how to get things moving again-It's impossible to rebuild a bridge without some serious gear. How would they be if they knew help wasn't coming, and that the next stranger they see might be taking what little they have? Watch this...It was from the 70's and it's frighteningly prophetic.

https://archive.org/details/james-burke-connections_s01e01


To get the context watch from the start (It was essential TV viewing when I was a teenager) but the point of the 'doomsday' slant is about 22.30 in.

albrecht

Quote from: Yorkshire pud on May 11, 2019, 07:21:08 PM
Yes they do...But largely because they also know eventually help will arrive in the form of outsiders with the machines and technical know how to get things moving again-It's impossible to rebuild a bridge without some serious gear. How would they be if they knew help wasn't coming, and that the next stranger they see might be taking what little they have? Watch this...It was from the 70's and it's frighteningly prophetic.

https://archive.org/details/james-burke-connections_s01e01


To get the context watch from the start (It was essential TV viewing when I was a teenager) but the point of the 'doomsday' slant is about 22.30 in.
"Connections" was awesome! Great show and a very interesting mind. Though I think certain episodes went a bit too afar, almost like a science-history version of RCH or Alex pr Marx etc sometimes. Sometimes, sometimes not always, everything is not connected. There is randomness, happenstance, serendipity, etc. 

Sure, that is why you need to be prepared, have weapons, training, supplies, networks, live in decent areas, have a plan, etc but even then shit-can-hit-the-fan and circumstances arrive that you can't do much about. So like being in the old days with the Comanches- always save one bullet in the event of capture.

WOTR

Quote from: Yorkshire pud on May 11, 2019, 06:46:00 PM
Oh I'm a firm believer that most of us can name a teacher from school who planted the germ that gave us the inspiration to have some self belief. Mine was a French/German/European studies teacher named Tommy Tranter. I don't know for sure but I think Mr Tranter had a government grant (as pretty much all degrees were then financed in the UK in those days) that paid for his college or university course to train to be a teacher who then went on to inspire and motivate many many other kids under his tutelage.

After I had left (it was written about on the old 'Friends reunited site) there was a lad about 15 who ran a market stall on Saturdays. His mother looked after it on Wednesday but could only do the mornings. He had double French in the afternoon and got into a chat with Tommy about his dilemma.Tommy let him skip French to go look after his stall. Of course this would be all over the papers these days (and maybe should have been then too) and Tommy fired in disgrace, but he let the lad follow his dream and encouraged him to do so.

Nice story.

I had more good teachers than bad- but only one who I would consider truly inspirational... And he probably would have let the lad run his booth as well... He was not a push over- but he treated "children" with dignity, respect and understanding.

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: albrecht on May 11, 2019, 07:11:56 PM
And those on the Left, note I didn't presume you, thought "women in the workforce" was all about "equality" and "rights."  :)

I'm old enough to remember my mother and practically every other friend's mother stayed at home (One friend's mother was a nurse, another ran a pub with his dad) because they could or wanted to. These days (In fact for the last thirty years) it's pretty much the opposite, and both parents work  not necessarily because of a career, but because they have to, to survive. 

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: WOTR on May 11, 2019, 07:33:50 PM
Nice story.

I had more good teachers than bad- but only one who I would consider truly inspirational... And he probably would have let the lad run his booth as well... He was not a push over- but he treated "children" with dignity, respect and understanding.

That was Tommy! We watched him talk down the school bully (Until we were all herded out of the yard where we were cheering) off the flat roof of the school outside the typing room. The lad had made sure he was well armed with chairs he was going to throw at anyone who tried to get him off. Tommy sat with him on the roof and the next we heard he'd been persuaded to get back in and go into the staff room with Tommy for a chat.

Mr Tranter believed every kid in the school was good at something, no matter what it was.

WOTR

Quote from: albrecht on May 11, 2019, 07:10:27 PM
...There also could be an argument for 100% death tax. I'm not saying I'm for these but could be considered and arrive at some middle way? I recall a funny situation when I brought up the 'death tax' to a guy ranting, at a wedding rehearsal dinner no less, about taxes, being a libertarian, etc and I said "wouldn't a real libertarian solution to start Tabula rasa and no inherited money and let the best person win?"  It did not go over well and lots of sputtering and he took offense.

Interesting thought. I have to admit that a 0% tax does not seem to be a great idea aside from those with under a certain amount of assets. I will also say that most of the rich know how to get around it with trusts, corporations, signing over property early, giving away their profitable company... That also would spell the end of the family farm (presumably, a corporation would never die and never have to liquidate where every family would do so every couple of decades.) It would also guarantee that all houses would be rentals for the same reason.

But aside from that- it is an interesting idea. But I am convinced that many of us want to "leave something behind" to help the next generation. The saying "you can't take it with you" is as true as ever- so most estates leave something behind.

I would fear that policy would have the most successful, and most driven people "give up" early in life. If I can accumulate enough by the time I'm 30- why would I continue producing at a rate that is putting my health in jeopardy?

I understand what you say when you argue the libertarian side- and I don't disagree. The major problem is the corporations followed by an almost soviet style economy where the most driven might suddenly lose interest. No- I don't know what the answer is... But a 100% death tax is "food for thought."

albrecht

Quote from: Yorkshire pud on May 11, 2019, 07:36:01 PM
I'm old enough to remember my mother and practically every other friend's mother stayed at home (One friend's mother was a nurse, another ran a pub with his dad) because they could or wanted to. These days (In fact for the last thirty years) it's pretty much the opposite, and both parents work  not necessarily because of a career, but because they have to, to survive.
In most places women slightly outnumber men in terms of percentage of population. It doesn't take an economic degree to figure that roughly doubling the general labor force will result in lower wages overall in real terms and thereby 'forcing' those women who would've preferred to stay at home and work, and it is work, from having to get an outside job. Though, interestingly, I've seen some changes. And the demographics are changing also. In some places universities, med and law schools, etc there are more women than men. But, conversely, there is somewhat status again (even among women who consider themselves feminists or on the lefty side of things) of not working because husband makes enough, but then you get involved in charities, social stuff, politics, kids, community groups, etc. Indeed in many places it is cheaper to stay home rather than both work and have to deal with hiring a nanny, dealing with kid transport, etc. Depending on one's degree or work experience, of course.  Nursing is a great job because almost totally portable (once dealing with paperwork, certifications, etc.) A relative got their whole family green-cards, and later citizenship, because his wife was a nurse and, at that time, a needed job. And he was an engineer who came over to work a specific project but liked it and immigration asked about wife's job experience and boom. Done and done. So no immigration headaches etc. From Denmark.

albrecht

Quote from: WOTR on May 11, 2019, 07:45:24 PM
Interesting thought. I have to admit that a 0% tax does not seem to be a great idea aside from those with under a certain amount of assets. I will also say that most of the rich know how to get around it with trusts, corporations, signing over property early, giving away their profitable company... That also would spell the end of the family farm (presumably, a corporation would never die and never have to liquidate where every family would do so every couple of decades.) It would also guarantee that all houses would be rentals for the same reason.

But aside from that- it is an interesting idea. But I am convinced that many of us want to "leave something behind" to help the next generation. The saying "you can't take it with you" is as true as ever- so most estates leave something behind.

I would fear that policy would have the most successful, and most driven people "give up" early in life. If I can accumulate enough by the time I'm 30- why would I continue producing at a rate that is putting my health in jeopardy?

I understand what you say when you argue the libertarian side- and I don't disagree. The major problem is the corporations followed by an almost soviet style economy where the most driven might suddenly lose interest. No- I don't know what the answer is... But a 100% death tax is "food for thought."
As I mentioned only "food for thought." I don't like the idea of the "family farm" going away (although it is in many cases) or not being able to leave a legacy for one's children, grandchildren, etc or at least a safety-net or pay for their education or something. But was using an extreme example to point out flaws in utopian, idealistic political theorizing. There are arguments that legacy wealth is bad. The Chinese have a saying "wealth does not pass three generations." But this is anecdotal and not true in many cases, especially if, as you mention, they get lawyers and set up trusts, investment accounts, spendthrift protections, etc.

With regard to property much of it is already "rental." True Allodial Title is almost gone. A few places. Most property is already on lien to a lender or actually paid-off, by law, can still be taken by the government. Here for some 'just compensation' as deemed by the government. A horrible Court decision even said it is ok for the government to take your land and give to a private or corporate entity!  And in some places, parts of the UK come to mind, you essentially enter into a very long term lease (sometimes 100's of years) so effectively you sorta own it but not really.


AZZERAE

Quote from: Jackstar on May 10, 2019, 04:06:30 PM
I haven't drank alcohol in like seven weeks.

Best decision you’ll ever make. All that new, free time, to “study”.

WOTR

Quote from: Kizuna Ai on May 11, 2019, 11:00:48 PM
Oy Vey!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuQz6ej7hT4

So- I'm to believe that the FBI is in the habit of sending out burned CD's with poor graphics containing black and white grainy pictures?  Oh right- the source was "a viewer" who supposedly made a FOIA request. No further evidence will be provided that any of this came from the FBI, nor that a FOIA request was ever made. No name to look up- no supporting documentation. Just photos that I am supposed to be dumb enough to accept as authentic because an anonymous youtube viewer sent in a CD.

Howard Stern said "..."
A 911 caller described "Palestinians."
I also have to add that if the Mosad bombed the building they received some pretty poor training to start dancing and not have a cover story hashed out. Pretty amateur hour for a supposedly international menace intelligence agency.

Oy Vey.  ::)

SredniVashtar

Quote from: pyewacket on May 11, 2019, 06:02:02 PM
You do realize that this 'poor swimmer' is completely at the mercy of the person pulling at the other end of the rope- right? The person in control of the situation can change his mind at any time. Imagine that it's me pulling the rope and I see that it is you at the other end. Imagine the first thought that goes through my mind and the first thought that goes through yours.

What comes to mind for someone who had the forethought to be prepared, spent money for necessary supplies, and has to put themselves at risk to save the "poor swimmers" who most likely made the poor choices to put themselves in that situation? 

So once again, it is down to the smart, well prepared, financially sound people having to take care of the perpetually unprepared and stupid people. They are always the loudest critics of others up until they have their hands out for that rope. Once rescued- their complaints will renew with vigor. The rope that they always expect to save them, may not be tossed to them in the future. After all, in a vast sea of 'poor swimmers', it is difficult to save them all.

You haven't thought this through at all, dear. If I'm drowning what do I care about the motives of the guy at the other end? It's take it or die. I suppose it might possibly be a sadist who lurks on seashores purely for an
opportunity like that, but you'd have to concede that it's a remote possibility and it's a chance I'd be prepared to take. You're arguing for the removal of all emergency services, fire departments, paramedics, disaster relief. Suppose a fatty keels over at a barbecue? Well let him die because he made poor choices and saving him would only lead to a culture of dependency. What a wonderful
world that would be.

It's ironic that you advocate this Social Darwinian world view yet support a man whose entire life has been one long pampered progress to the top. He rode his clown car all the way to the White House and every time he tripped over his shoes his daddy was there to pick him up again. Well, most of us don't have that luxury. People get into difficulties often through no fault of their own, your assumption that it is their fault is pure mean-spiritedness and a desire to dodge any responsibility.

Americans have trouble with this kind of thing because their attitude to life has always been cushioned in various ways - a generally favourable climate, abundance of food (for the most part) no invasion threats. Europeans have learned from experience that it's better to work together than struggle separately. That's why the USA is only semi-civilised and sees any attempt to make the world better for others as a blow at their own prosperity. It's pure childishness.

Despite your attitude I would still throw you the line. Not because I'm all that virtuous but because I don't want to live in a world where people are allowed to die like that. We are all part of a greater whole, whether you choose to recognise that or not. Even if someone did make poor choices, the people around them who might be affected shouldn't be expected to suffer too. You get more satisfaction out of seeing people get their just deserts, well I don't.


SredniVashtar

Quote from: WOTR on May 11, 2019, 05:58:20 PM
If you are concerned that people don't understand how others live you must be advocating that we cap net worth at around $500,000 and annual salary at around $80,000. It does not take being the 7th richest man to be in a different existence than the average man. After a certain accumulation of wealth, it is hard to understand how others struggle. If the top 10 people in America control 5% or 55% of the wealth- those people are not going to live in the same reality.

Two stories. I was talking with the children of a wallstreet investment banker (I was invited to stay at their house on park Ave... Long story.) Anyhow, they said that they were kind of poor. The reason? They didn't have a private helicopter like their friends at school to take them skiing that weekend.

A little closer to home, one of the volunteers in the phone room of a social agency had her heart in the right place. She was there trying to help the poor. She had lived a privileged life- and I would estimate she was 55 - 65. She had actually made the comment that she "did not understand why people would need a referral to a food bank when they could take money out of their savings." No- I'm not joking. And she was not in the 1%. She just lived a secure life.

Unless your are advocating that people like that woman be taxed and be made to struggle and scrape by, there will always be people who are "almost a separate society which doesn't understand how most people live." She was a good woman who worked hard (or whose husband worked hard) to ensure that there would always be a savings account to draw on.

To advocate that we take away her savings account and retirement savings so that she can finally suffer and understand why somebody might need a referral to a food bank seems like the worst that true socialism has to offer.*

*Again, I agree that there is something wrong... But simply saying "tax them more" is not going to work... Nor is Trumps call to "not tax them."

It's not the wealth part I mind so much. Being wealthy doesn't necessarily mean you lose all empathy, but it makes it harder and requires you to make more of an effort to be informed. It can also lead to the 'I'm Alright, Jack' mentality, which we see in this thread, where people don't care about others and impute the worst possible motives simply because they are comfortable themselves.

The worst part of the wealth mentality is that it leads people to kick the ladder away as they rise up. In this country we are ruled by a strata of lawyers and policy wonks who have a very narrow view of the world. It used to be different when working class men like Ernie Bevin would reach high office and they would advocate for the less-privileged. It's not just politics, even the acting profession is filled with the privately educated who have crowded out the working class. We have Thatcher to thank for that, who eroded the post war economic settlement so much that only the wealthy have a chance to succeed now.

Being very wealthy is something I don't get that exercised about, I'm talking about the super-rich who exert disproportionate influence through control of the media and political donations. I don't care if someone knows what a pint of milk costs, but I do care if they use their bully pulpit to preach for neo-liberalism or the next war that their arms company stands to profit by. Most of the people on the internet who have any following, like Shapiro or Owens, are funded by right wing activists.

It's not about crushing the wealthy, it's about making them pay a fair share, but all they seem to be interested in is abolishing the minimum wage and bringing in a flat tax. At least in the old days, the landowner felt a responsibility towards the serfs, these days we don't even get that.

SredniVashtar

Quote from: WOTR on May 12, 2019, 12:47:56 AM
So- I'm to believe that the FBI is in the habit of sending out burned CD's with poor graphics containing black and white grainy pictures?  Oh right- the source was "a viewer" who supposedly made a FOIA request. No further evidence will be provided that any of this came from the FBI, nor that a FOIA request was ever made. No name to look up- no supporting documentation. Just photos that I am supposed to be dumb enough to accept as authentic because an anonymous youtube viewer sent in a CD.

Howard Stern said "..."
A 911 caller described "Palestinians."
I also have to add that if the Mosad bombed the building they received some pretty poor training to start dancing and not have a cover story hashed out. Pretty amateur hour for a supposedly international menace intelligence agency.

Oy Vey.  ::)

You cynic. The next thing you'll be claiming that QAnon is bullshit.

pyewacket

Quote from: SredniVashtar on May 12, 2019, 02:37:39 AM
You haven't thought this through at all, dear. If I'm drowning what do I care about the motives of the guy at the other end? It's take it or die. I suppose it might possibly be a sadist who lurks on seashores purely for an
opportunity like that, but you'd have to concede that it's a remote possibility and it's a chance I'd be prepared to take. You're arguing for the removal of all emergency services, fire departments, paramedics, disaster relief. Suppose a fatty keels over at a barbecue? Well let him die because he made poor choices and saving him would only lead to a culture of dependency. What a wonderful
world that would be.

It's ironic that you advocate this Social Darwinian world view yet support a man whose entire life has been one long pampered progress to the top. He rode his clown car all the way to the White House and every time he tripped over his shoes his daddy was there to pick him up again. Well, most of us don't have that luxury. People get into difficulties often through no fault of their own, your assumption that it is their fault is pure mean-spiritedness and a desire to dodge any responsibility.

Americans have trouble with this kind of thing because their attitude to life has always been cushioned in various ways - a generally favourable climate, abundance of food (for the most part) no invasion threats. Europeans have learned from experience that it's better to work together than struggle separately. That's why the USA is only semi-civilised and sees any attempt to make the world better for others as a blow at their own prosperity. It's pure childishness.

Despite your attitude I would still throw you the line. Not because I'm all that virtuous but because I don't want to live in a world where people are allowed to die like that. We are all part of a greater whole, whether you choose to recognise that or not. Even if someone did make poor choices, the people around them who might be affected shouldn't be expected to suffer too. You get more satisfaction out of seeing people get their just deserts, well I don't.

Wow- all I was fishing for a 'thank you' for pulling you out.

Quote from: SredniVashtar on May 12, 2019, 02:37:39 AM
Suppose a fatty keels over at a barbecue? Well let him die because he made poor choices and saving him would only lead to a culture of dependency. What a wonderful
world that would be.

That would be his fault for showing up, uninvited, to the Donner family summer barbecue.





Yorkshire pud

Quote from: WOTR on May 12, 2019, 12:47:56 AM
So- I'm to believe that the FBI is in the habit of sending out burned CD's with poor graphics containing black and white grainy pictures?  Oh right- the source was "a viewer" who supposedly made a FOIA request. No further evidence will be provided that any of this came from the FBI, nor that a FOIA request was ever made. No name to look up- no supporting documentation. Just photos that I am supposed to be dumb enough to accept as authentic because an anonymous youtube viewer sent in a CD.

Howard Stern said "..."
A 911 caller described "Palestinians."
I also have to add that if the Mosad bombed the building they received some pretty poor training to start dancing and not have a cover story hashed out. Pretty amateur hour for a supposedly international menace intelligence agency.

Oy Vey.  ::)


I agree..MOSAD are pretty much the most ruthless and professional hit squad on the planet. If they screwed up so catastrophically they'd be facing more than an extra circumcision.

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